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Harold and Inge Marcus Department of Industrial and Manufacturing Engineering

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Yes, this is an article about a department within a university. Yes, it's short (17kb including references; ~9.5kb of prose). But it's well-referenced, contains a lot of information without being crufty, and has a few good pictures. I don't think this article can get much better than it already is, so it's time for FAC. See the archived peer review from two months ago; since then I added a level two section ("Academics") and made numerous other changes. What do you think? (This is a self-nom) --Spangineeres (háblame) 01:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The first sentence is a bit awkward for me about the founding part - I was about to make this tweak to it making it a seperate sentence but I'll leave it here instead as I'm not sure if it is correct or not (and, as it looks it seems it needs a citation for the claim):
Founded in 1908, it is the oldest industrial engineering department in the world.[citation needed] RN 04:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've struggled with that sentence. Here are a few options: [1], [2], and [3]. In the last one (current as I write this), I added a reference. What do you think about removing all the references from the lead? They all appear later in the text (except for the department head, but that's trivial to add). --Spangineeres (háblame) 12:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oh BTW I'm leaning towards
Founded in 1908, Pennsylvania State University's Harold and Inge Marcus Department of Industrial and Manufacturing Engineering is the oldest industrial engineering department in the world.
Also, you probably do need the cites in the intro, since most of the exact claims are not made in the text (I didn't see any but if there are you usually don't need to cite it twice :)). RN 16:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support nice job.Rlevse 13:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support yeah, that it is a tough lead (all leads are difficult :)). If I have I'll point out a few more nitpicks, but besides that it looks good.
  1. "Penn State at the turn of the 20th century was known for its engineering curriculum, but industrial engineering was only beginning to emerge as an academic discipline"
    This is A) awkward and B) who "was it known to" - it just says "was known". More specific would be ideal.
  2. The history section maybe needs to be better summarized in the lead.

RN 16:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for the comments. For your first point, my source says, "Penn State had earned a national reputation for excellence in the training of engineers". So I guess I can improve that somewhat, but there aren't many details available. I've modified it somewhat. As for your second point... I've played around with it and I'm just not sure how to add more. I can say something about the curriculum, or something about the new building, but I'm not sure that the added information is worth disrupting the lead's simplicity. I guess I just haven't figured out how to include the extra information effectively. Regarding your suggestion for the opening sentence; I'm not sure I like jumping straight to the claim of being oldest—to me it makes sense to present that separately, after introducing the topic with a simple definition. I'll keep beating this around in my head though. --Spangineeres (háblame) 02:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This is interesting, well-written, and well-sourced. SP, re: the above, you could say something like "Within the U.S., Penn State was regarded as a center of excellence for the training of engineers," then ref to the source, as it's very close to what the source says. Just a suggestion; feel free to ignore. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1) Excellent point; I've added that. 2) I include it there because the image is there, and because the FAME lab is one of the defining characteristics of the department (even more highly ranked IE deptartments don't have lab facilities like PSU's). Plus, the lead's short as it is. Also, do you really like "The Technion in Haifa in Israel" as opposed to "The Technion in Haifa, Israel"? Why the extra prepositional phrase, and why use "in" twice that close together? --Spangineeres (háblame) 19:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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