Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Fightstar/archive3

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 20:19, 8 July 2017 [1].

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Fightstar

Nominator(s): dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 22:39, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

This article is about a British punk/alternative rock/metal band which is fronted by the Busted singer Charlie Simpson. I developed an addiction to this band over the summer and fall, and shaped up all the already decent information into a readable, reliable article. Never before had I made such expansion to an article; I took it from about 30k to now approximately 55k. It has already been copyedited for the convenience of the reviewers here. This is my first FAC, though I have had one FLC pass (Evanescence discography). I look forward to feedback! dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 22:39, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

• Support since my comments have already been addressed in the previous FAC. Hope you have a wonderful rest of your day. Good luck with this nomination. Hopefully, it gets more feedback/commentary this time around. Aoba47 (talk) 01:32, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Coordinator note: This FAC is strictly speaking out of process as two weeks have not passed since the last nomination was archived. The FAC instructions make it clear that there should be a two-week wait unless permission is given by the coordinators. I'm prepared to let this one go, given the limited feedback on the last nomination, but I really don't want to make a habit of this and wouldn't do so again unless permission was sought. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:20, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Comments from Famous Hobo

So I was looking through my talk page, and I just noticed that you asked me to review this article. My apologies for not responding, it must have just slipped by my radar. Anyway, I know how awful it can be when you;re waiting for FAC reviews, so I'll pitch in to help. Here's just a few short ones to get you started.

• Simpson, increasingly frustrated with Busted's music, could not explore his own creative desires because the music he wrote could not be played with Busted. This sentence is in need of a good copyedit. I had to reread this sentence three times before I understood what it was saying. I noticed this sentence wasn't in the article when the Guild of Copyeditors came through.
• The EP was inspired by novelist David Fincher's film, Fight Club (1999). David Fincher directed Fight Club. Chuck Palahniuk wrote the novel the film was based off of. Besides, I think you can just say "the EP was inspired by the 1999 film Fight Club". BTW, any particular reason why they decided to take inspiration from that film? Fight Club is rather unique, in that it deals with heavy themes of consumerism and masculinity (see Interpretations of Fight Club), so it'd be interesting to see what Fightstar took out of that film. Also, trying not to make this one comment go on for too long, but you don't need link Fight Club (film), just Fight Club is fine.

Oops. That indeed is false. I meant to fix this up in the second FAC, but I may have done goofed when trying to do that. But why should I change the link? Shouldn't I do both? Surely the phenomenon of difference between book and movie is present; and I think the cited article said they took influence from the movie. Check it out now, tell me what you think. dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 17:04, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

• The release was praised by critics, despite initial scepticism due to Simpson's former pop career with Busted. There's only one review sourced here. Try not to generalize critical praise with just one review. Looking at the EP article, there are a few other reviews you could include to support your statement. As a side note, always try to take an unbiased approach to generalizing reviews, as I noticed that the PunkNews review was negative. It appears to be the only negative review, but keep that in mind.

Alright, there's a few comments to get you started. Famous Hobo (talk) 15:53, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Comments from Lewismaster

I'm sorry for the delay, but my commitments outside WP are becoming very pressing. I am not an expert about band biographies and I have never listened to this band in particular, so the article is quite informative. However, there are some problems regarding mainly sources and references. Nothing insurmountable, but a few sentences look menacingly like original research to me.

Structure

The article is missing a Background section, which, in this case, should focus on Simpson and Busted. Busted are often cited in the article, but no info is provided about them, except that they are a pop-punk band. At least you should write that they were very successful, won awards, had an audience composed of teen-agers. And Simpson hated that, because he had a different musical background, which should be described. In one interview he described his time in Busted as "a mistake" and in another as "torture". In the same interviews he is very specific about his musical tastes and about the influences that he wanted to express in Fightstar. The part about his frustration and why he left Busted should be put here, too. He is the star of the band and a few sentences about his background is necessary, IMO. If you have some background info about the other musicians before they formed the band this is the place to put them.

I've never seen a section named Background in a band FA. It usually comes in the beginning of the history section, something like "Early years", etc. I will put some of this information in there

Lead

The lead should summarise the content of the article, so no references should be placed here. You write that "they were viewed sceptically by critics", but this fact does not emerge from the article, where everybody is apparently enthusiastic of the new band.

Origins

Source no. 4 is a short review of a show in Liverpool, but it is used as reference for a lot of things that have nothing to do with it, such as the origin of the band, the occupation of its members, the first song they wrote... Find a real source, please.

"Simpson's time with Fightstar reportedly caused tension in Busted" - source no.5 doesn't report any tension, but maybe sadness for the end of Busted. Find a source for this sentence.

They Liked You Better When You Were Dead (2004–2005)

"After Simpson's decision to focus on Fightstar, the band entered Criterion Studios in London with producer Mark Williams to begin work on their first EP, They Liked You Better When You Were Dead." - No reference.

"With nine tracks on its extended mini-album version, it was written in six months while Westaway and Simpson lived together." - I think that this sentence should be rewritten like maybe: "It was released as a mini-album, containing nine tracks written during the six months of Simpson and Westaway's cohabitation".

""Mono", named after the Japanese band, was recorded during a thunderstorm; shortly before the track's finale, Simpson may be heard screaming in the rain after he ran outside (unaware that the studio mics were picking up his voice)." - This is the biography of Fightstar and should focus on the main aspects of their work. Is the song "Mono" so important to go in such detail? I would cut this part.

"They Liked You Better When You Were Dead, released on 28 February 2005 after a brief UK promotional tour" - no reference for the tour.

"It was mostly a critical success,[1][11][12] even though Punknews.org reviewed it negatively." - Cut "mostly". There is one puzzling fact in your article: apparently Kerrang! promoted Fightstar in every possible way, but the magazine is barely cited and rarely used as reference. Here you can find some issues: [2]

Lol, I never found the link you just provided, that'd have been useful. I knew Kerrang loved them, but I thought most of them were magazine issues. dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 23:43, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

"the EP was inspired by novelist Chuck Palahniuk's film, Fight Club." - Source no. 4 doesn't say that.

"The band's debut single, "Palahniuk's Laughter", received heavy rotation on music-video channels and spent many weeks on charts based on video and radio requests." - I don't think that source no.15 is valid. It is a "User-contributed text", probably copied from Last.fm, a website made up with user content.

"The EP's UK version contained five tracks (including a sixth hidden track), and was ineligible for the UK Singles Chart." - Why? There is no explanation or reference for this.

I wasn't able to find this. I found chart rules for singles and albums, but not for EPs... dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 23:43, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

"It was released the following year in North America as an extended mini-album by Deep Elm Records." - No reference.

"The release was praised by critics, despite initial scepticism due to Simpson's former pop career with Busted." - Critics' praise? Source no. 17 is the review of a Sputnikmusic staffer. You should provide more than one favourable reviews to write something like that. And again, who is sceptical here? There is no source expressing anything but good vibes.

Grand unification

"They requested Colin Richardson; initially sceptical about their chances, Richardson agreed to collaborate after he listened to their demos." - No reference for this sentence. Scepticism is an unreferenced lietmotiv.

" Grand Unification is a loose concept album, influenced by and based on the Neon Genesis Evangelion anime series. With lyrics loosely based on the personal experiences of Charlie Simpson and Alex Westaway, its underlying concept revolves around two people who experience the last few days of their lives before the end of the world." - This period is very confusing and I think that it should be rewritten and/or expanded. What is a loose concept album? Which parts of the anime are touched in the songs? The personal experiences of the musicians are about the anime or something else? The two people mentioned are from the anime or are they the musicians? Or someone else entirely? The period gives me more questions than answers.

A loose concept album doesn't follow an exact story line, it just has stuff with the same theme. A true concept album would have an established story. As for the anime, the media seems to have no interest going into depth with it. I saw some unreliable forums but that's all I found when initially editing the article. dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 23:43, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Actually a concept album doesn't need a story line, just an idea that connects all the songs. Rock operas are concept albums with characters and stories. Thick as a Brick, known as the ultimate concept album, doesn't have any of those. I would cut the "loose". Lewismaster (talk) 07:36, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

"Grand Unification was released in the UK on 13 March 2006 by Island Records, preceded by the single releases of "Paint Your Target", "Grand Unification Pt. I" and "Waste a Moment"." - No reference

"The band played at the Download Festival at Donington Park, and followed Biffy Clyro and Funeral for a Friend at the Full Ponty festival in Wales." - There is no reference for Download festival.

"Fightstar toured several countries, including Australia, Japan and the UK, with Funeral for a Friend for three months in 2006." - Source no. 23 is for the UK tour, but there is no reference for the international tours.

One Day Son, This Will All Be Yours

"Fightstar signed with the independent label Institute Records (a division of Gut Records) for their second album." - Source no. 26 redirects to a generic index page. Is this a dead link?

Not one that was picked up when I last checked the dead links. I ran IAbot on here, so I'll have to double check some of them. dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 23:43, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

"The song, inspired by a harrowing documentary about Chinese execution vans[29] and the end of Simpson's romantic relationship, produced a low-fi music video which cost £500 to make." - This sentence should be rewritten. Something like: "The song was inspired by a harrowing documentary about Chinese execution vans and the end of Simpson's romantic relationship, contents present in the £500-low-fi music video the band produced".

"The band went on a 10-date UK tour in May 2008, supported by the London four-piece Brigade and the yet-unsigned Essex band We Are The Ocean." - No reference

I can find some evidence that We Are the Ocean was with them, but nothing technically considered reliable; seems the media ignored them at the time and only mentioned the first two bands. dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 23:43, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Alternate Endings and Be Human

"the band decided to release their next album, Be Human, in a joint venture with their management company (Raw Power) on the Search and Destroy label. The album was distributed by PIAS Records." - Source no.39 is a dead link.

"Fightstar released their first single from Be Human, "The English Way", on 3 November 2008 and it topped the UK rock chart. Its video was played on Kerrang! and Scuzz T.V., and topped the MTV2 top 10." - No reference

I remember reading this and thought I had fixed it. I wonder if I forgot to save it and closed it by accident. dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 23:43, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

"The album was co-produced by the band and Carl Bown at Treehouse Studios, Bown's Chesterfield studio." - No reference

"The band supported Feeder for the first part of their UK tour, which began on 21 October 2008." - No reference

"Drummer Jason Bowld of the British metal band Pitchshifter filled in for Omar Abidi on their UK tour while Abidi recovered from a broken wrist; Abidi returned to touring with the band in early 2009." - Source no. 41 is a music video of a live performance. There is no indication of anything written in this sentence.

It's all I could find; I had evidence they were still touring and that Abidi broke his wrist but nothing else. I will add said info about the injury. dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 23:43, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

"Due to the drummer's injury, Simpson played drums on six tracks of the new album while Abidi wrote the drum parts and oversaw Simpson's playing." - In the source provided there is no trace of what you wrote.

"the band was featured on the BBC2 music show, Sound. "Mercury Summer" was added to the daytime playlist at XFM Radio and picked as Ian Camfield's Record of the Week. Emma Scott and Kerrang Radio also made "Mercury Summer" her Record of the Week." - No references

Hiatus and side projects

"In 2010, Fightstar announced that they were going on hiatus to focus on separate projects." - No reference

"and completed production of a project with Philip Koch of Lucas Film." - No reference

Reference 54 was what I intended to source that claim with. dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 23:43, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Probably you meant reference 58. So the project with Bastiaan Koch and the movie The 3rd Letter are one and the same. There's no need for a repetition so it should be rewritten properly. Lewismaster (talk) 07:36, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

"Simpson's solo work differed from his previous efforts, featuring a sound described as closer to folk music than to rock or pop." - Actually the review provided doesn't say this and classify the album as indie rock. You should find another reference for this sentence.

I indeed wrote that poorly. It does have some notable recognition of its folk direction though. dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 23:43, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

The following sections look better referenced, but I will review them tomorrow anyway. Lewismaster (talk) 21:24, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Musical style and influences

Reference no. 82 is an online shop site and completely unacceptable as source. Customer reviews are not valid.

I'm struggling to see what you mean, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of anywhere to buy anything on 411mania.com. It doesn't appear invalid to me. dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 13:01, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

The reference [3]] switched to 83. Lewismaster (talk) 17:09, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

"Lyrically, the band have tried to avoid writing in an "emo" fashion." - Can you elaborate this concept a little more? Were Fightstar associated with emos?

No, but I bet Busted were in the same fashion as 5SOS is with today's so-called emo teenagers, but thus far I've found nothing. The source itself suggests that was what they did on They Liked You Better... dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 13:01, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm not convinced. I found with a simple Goggle search these links to Fightstar and emo, where they are called "emo superstars" [4][5][6][7][8]. I think that in the UK they were associated with, and maybe thrived in, the emo fashion. Lewismaster (talk) 17:09, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Finally got to this, and actually, I think the one saying they were "emo superstars" was referring to Moose Blood, the other band in the RockSound ref. Although "superstars" even sounds like a stretch to me for that band, they're lower than Fightstar even was at any time. The other refs, except Lambgoat (I'd question its reliability), look good. dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 01:32, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

You can find a few more here: [9][10][11][12]. I think that Emo as a genre performed by Fightstar should definitely be mentioned in the article. Lewismaster (talk) 12:53, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

The latter two of these references work, as they are talking baout their sound as a whole, rather than a single album or small influence. dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 13:18, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Now it makes more sense and works better. Lewismaster (talk) 07:19, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

"Behind the Devil's Back (2015) was noted for a heavier use of electronics than past, said by some to be reminiscent of Gunship" – in the past. Some who? Critics maybe.

Behind the Devil's Back reviews say the same thing. It would be better to summarize that content instead of citing each reviewer.

Rationale for "Sleep Well Tonight"

A proper rationale for the sound sample should be written, because fair use imply that those samples can be used only for commentary of the songs itself. This is not an article about that song, so an explanation in the rationale about the reason why it is used in the Fightstar article is mandatory. Lewismaster (talk) 07:36, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

I believe that fair use also applies to describing something in an article which can only be demonstrated by sound rather than text. I did this with Fall Out Boy's sample in its GA review. If they aren't the same, I will update "Sleep Well Tonight" accordingly. dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 13:01, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm not an expert, but fair use of music samples is under scrutiny lately (see WP:Fair use#Fair use and music sampling, WP:Non-free content#Audio clips, WP:Manual of Style/Music samples) and every editor that worked on my articles was very strict on the correct use of rationales. Music samples outside the article about the song itself should be used only when text cannot describe something, and that something should be included in the rationale. Lewismaster (talk) 17:09, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

I made corrections for a few references, I hope you don't mind. Lewismaster (talk) 07:36, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Status as of 2 July 2017

I will be on Wikibreak starting tomorrow until 15 July for a family vacation to California (I live in Pennsylvania), so I will not have time to edit Wikipedia at all for thirteen days. I also note I still have a reasonable amount of work to finish here. So, this is just a note to any FAC coordinators that I would be totally okay with this being archived over my WB as I now have a list of things to fix and a reasonable amount of commentary. dannymusiceditor ^{Speak up!} 23:24, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Closing comment: Given that this review has stalled slightly, and the nominator is mid-way through a break, I think it is best to archive this now. The nominator has some feedback to work on. This can be renominated after the usual two-week wait. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:19, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:19, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.