Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Exmoor

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 01:51, 21 January 2008.

Exmoor

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I'm nominating this article for featured article because I feel it meets the FA criteria. It has undergone major revisions, particularly copyediting and providing suitable citations, during and after its GA promotion. It has been a collaborative effort by several editors, including members of the Somerset WikiProject and we will monitor the nomination and respond to comments.— Rod ^talk 12:18, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support Looks great. Baldrick90 (talk) 16:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Moni3 I recently rewrote an article on a national park in the US, so I took a look at your article. I don't know if some issues are language and culture related - terms that are British that I don't get - but I have some suggestions:

Done In the lead, one of your sentences starts with 71%. Can you either spell out the number or rephrase the sentence so it does not start with a numeral?
Done In the first sentence, the linked "national park" is not capitalized, but in the second sentence, the unlinked term is (as well as in the first sentence under "Government and politics"). Can you make it consistent?
Done The second paragraph under "Geology" has no citations. Neither does the second paragraph after "Rivers" (even if you have to cite a map).
Done Under "Coastline" I read this sentence: "The Exmoor Coastal Heaths have been recognised as a Site of Special Scientific Interest due to the diversity of species present." but I can't tell species of what - plants? animals? both?
Done In "Climate" you state that December is the dullest month. I don't know what that means other than it's not very exciting. Can you restate that in terms relevant to climate?
Done Can you add a slight detail explaining to the poor folk not in the UK what a grade I listed building means?
Done There is a sentence about Holwell Castle, but it doesn't explain its significance in the history of the region. Can you expand that?
Done Underneath that is a paragraph about the Simonsbath house, and a sentence about the Anchor herd of ponies. The sentences about the ponies seems out of place in the paragraph about the house. What is an Anchor herd and why is it important? (The sentence is repeated under "Fauna", too.)
DoneWhy is "Chains" red linked in "Ecology"?
Done There is a one-sentence paragraph about deer in "Fauna".
DoneWhy are the birds that you named extinct? What happened to them?
In "The Beast of Exmoor" the following sentences: "The Beast of Exmoor is a cryptozoological cat (see phantom cat) that is reported to roam Exmoor. Although there have been numerous eye witness sightings..." need citations. Who has reported it? Newspapers? Can you provide cited stories? The same with the eye witness sightings. Do park personnel confirm or deny its existence? What's the official word from the park on a mythical creature?
Done This sentence in "Government and politics" is very difficult to understand: From 1954 local government was the responsibility of the county councils and, since 1997, by the Exmoor National Park Authority, however responsibility for the social and economic well-being of the local community remains with the district and county councils. Can you simplify it or break it into two sentences?
Done The last sentence in "Government and politics" is a one-sentence paragraph. I don't know what SSSI's are, either. Can you clarify that?
Done There is a one-sentence paragraph in "Sport". Can you expand it to describe the history of hunting in the park? What was hunted and for how long?
DoneThe last paragraph in "Places of interest" has no citations. What is a "sea of snowdrops"?
Done You can probably consolidate "Sport", "Places of interest", and "Cultural settings" into one "Activities" heading with those subheadings. Although I would suggest merging the information about the cultural settings into the "Places of interest" section. That way you won't have such a small section by itself. Are there park-sponsored activities, like hikes, lectures, etc. that are led by park personnel for educational purposes?
Is there a map of the park you can provide as a visual?

I thought it was an interesting article - enough to make me want to go see it. Good luck on it! --Moni3 (talk) 17:14, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Initial response to Comments by Moni3 Thanks for your comments, I do forget that some UK terms are not universally recognised. I have addressed some of the points as indicated above. SSSI & listed buildings are defined in the links but I have added short summaries within the article. I will need a little more time to address some of the areas below:

Done citations for paras in Geology & Rivers sections + "Places of interest" & "sea of snowdrops"?

I think I've clarified the snowdrops.PamD (talk) 18:54, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done Chains (geological site) is an area - I will do a stub
Done Birds no longer found - I will research/ask for expert help
"The Beast of Exmoor" - I will research/ask for expert help
Map - beyond my skills, but I will ask for help, but I am worried about achieving this in the FAC timescale

I hope that we will be able to meet these outstadning concerns & thank you for helping to improve the article.— Rod ^talk 18:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Follow up response With the exception of the map I hope we have now metyour outstanding concerns - although I'm having problems finding definitive statements about the "Beast of Exmoor", perhaps we should remove these?— Rod ^talk 22:18, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It looks much better, for sure. The National Park system websites here in the US offer maps as pdf files. Are there no maps available online for British National Parks?

I would very much like to support the article. My only issue left is the section still about Holwell Castle. I can't tell if the castle was built to protect the forest. It rather seems as if the sentence is disconnected with the rest of the information about the sheep, wool, and royal forest. If there's no real connection between the sheep and royal forest with the castle, consider splitting it into its own paragraph and adding a couple sentences to describe the caste - we Americans tend to think castles look like Cinderella lives in it...as well, can you state who stated it "probably" was intended to guard the junction? Now it sounds like you're speculating. It sounds much better when you can cite an individual or agency who has done the speculating. --Moni3 (talk) 04:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response Thanks for your comments. I have expanded the information on Holwell Castle with multiple references, into it's own paragraph - I don't think Cinderella would enjoy it, basically only grassy mounds are left! There is a map here which is included in the "Further Reading". As I understand the copyright laws.. in the US if it has been paid for by taxpayers it is put into the public domain. Here in the UK the use of maps is licenced (with hefty fees) by the Ordnance Survey, therefore I've asked a wikipedia editor who has created maps for local articles in the past to see if a map could be made for use on the article however this takes time.— Rod ^talk 09:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support - did the GA review, and helped out a little when it hit a setback. Great work since then, great article, compliant with FAC criteria. Good job! Rt . 21:42, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support (was ~~Comment~~) - overall quite good, but some relatively minor changes are needed. I was bold and made some minor copyedits myself (feel free to revert if I introduced any errors), but these are ones I was not sure of:
- Done(Lead) "The three largest settlements are Lynton and Lynmouth, Porlock and Dulverton, which..." I count four (and four separate wikilinks). If two somehow count as one settlement, please clarify this. If this is an error or vandalism, please fix it.

Lynton & Lynmouth are at the top & bottom of the same cliff.

- Done(Geology) "They are largely of Devonian age (to which this area gave its name as it was first studied and described here) to early Carboniferous periods." Two problems here. First I think the phrase in parentheis is awkward - do geologists study ages or rocks? How about a new second sentence something like "The name Devonian comes from Devon as rocks of that age were first studied and described here"? Second, taking out the parenthesis shows the awkwardness of the remaining parts of the sentence: "They are largely of Devonian age to early Carboniferous periods." I think this is indicating the range of geologic ages represented here? Perhaps this would be better as "They are largely from the Devonian and early Carboniferous periods (the name Devonian comes from Devon, as rocks of that age were first studied and described here)."?
- DoneAlso, why is the sentence "Some moors are covered by a variety of grasses and sedges, while others are dominated by heather." in Geology when there is a Flora section? If the underlying rocks influence grass vs heather, say so explicitly. Otherwise, please move it or make clearer why it is in this section (However, most of the rock cannnot be seen as it is covered by moors...).
- Done(Coastline) Can you somehow indicate that Great Hangman is still in (or just on the border of) Exmoor?
- Done(Climate) Is it just "Exmoor" or "the Exmoor"? (in at least one other place too)

I've found & removed two occurrences of this. The others are "the Exmoor X" or because of the context of the sentence seem appropriate.

- Done(History) "It is also likely that extraction and smelting of mineral ores to make tools, weapons, containers and ornaments in bronze and then iron started in the late late neolithic and into the bronze and iron ages.[22]" Is "late late neolithic" a typo? Could you say "very late neolithic" instead? This sentence is a bit awkward - since the bronze and iron ages are mentioned, could the metals themselves be removed, i.e. something like "It is also likely that extraction and smelting of mineral ores to make metal tools, weapons, containers and ornaments started in the very late neolithic, and continued into the bronze and iron ages.[22]"
- DoneThe Sheep farming paragraph goes from the Middle Ages to the 17th Century and a warden. The next paragraph, on Holwell Castle, is 11th and 12th centuries, then the paragraph after it is back to the warden and 17th Century. Could Holwell Castle be moved one paragraph earlier (swap it with sheep farming)?
- Done(Ecology) " North Exmoor covers 29,666 acres (12,005 ha) and includes the Dunkery Beacon and the Holnicote and Horner Water Nature Conservation Review sites, and the Chains Geological Conservation Review site. The site is nationally important for..." Which of three sites (my guess is North Exmoor is meant, perhaps just repeat that)(or is it the Chains)?
- DoneSince not everyone knows these bird species, perhaps modify "The heaths have strong breeding populations of [birds, including] Whinchat (Saxicola rubetra) and Stonechat (Saxicola torquata)."
- (Beast of Exmoor) "Although there have been numerous eyewitness sightings, many scientists believe it to be purely mythical. " needs a reference and it would help if one or two of the scientitsts in question could be identified by name (otherwise "many scientists believe" seems to be weasel words).

This is difficult & it is hard to pin down any specifics - I'm not sure the evidence is strong enough to support this but the local folklaw is so strong I think it deserves to be included.

- Done(Sport and Recreation) and (Places of Interest) both mention the Coleridge Way in too much repetitive detail - give the details in one place, mention the name but not too much else in the other place. Similar complaint for the Tarr Steps (from History).
I hope this helps - if these are addressed, I will gladly support. I have also inquired about a map of the park itself. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 20:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response - thanks for these comments and the edits you made. With the exception of the "Beast of Exmoor" I believe they have now been addressed. I would appreciate any help with the Beast section as I'm finding it very difficult to find anything definitive.— Rod ^talk 22:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to Support. Glad to help - hope my edits were OK. Here are a couple of ideas re the Beast of Exmoor sentence - if a book has a quote that says something like that, you could just quote it and attribute the author. Or you could say something like "For example, the official Exmoor National Park website lists the beast under "Traditions, Folklore, and legends" [1]. Another option would be to quote a newspaper or magazine article on the beast. Another example, the BBC Science & Nature website calls Exmoor a "rugged and charismatic National Park, smothered with heather and offering plenty of walking options. It is also home to a range of wildlife, including ponies and the famous-yet-elusive beast of Exmoor. Allegedly." [2] Any sort of attribution to a reliable source showing that most are skeptical would be less weaselly than the current wording. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 22:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response - thanks I've changed it as you suggested.— Rod ^talk 22:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Glad to help - I just made a few copyedits to restore a few things that got pruned a bit too much and make a few minor fixes. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support: No issues here that I can see. A really comprehensive and beautifully written article. -- Jza84 · (talk) 14:36, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.