Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Djedkare Isesi/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 14:10, 30 April 2016 [1].

Djedkare Isesi

Nominator(s): Iry-Hor (talk) 09:11, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Djedkare Isesi, the eighth and penultimate pharaoh of the Fifth Dynasty of Egypt, reigning for over 40 years in the late 25th to early 24th century BCE. Djedkare is arguably the most prominant member of his dynasty, a great reformer he undertook–with dire consequences–the first reforms of the Egyptian administration and commissioned numerous trade and mining expeditions abroad. Egyptologists perceive his reign as heralding a new era in the Old Kingdom period and indeed many firsts are dated to his rule: earliest depiction of warfare, earliest reforms of the state, earliest record of an oracular divination, earliest letters on papyri, earliest use of the word Nub for Nubia (we still use it today!), earliest piece of philosophic wisdom literature... This article is the fruit of months of bibliographic research, boasting over 40 footnotes and more than 300 inline references drawn from 100 different sources. It is part of a series of FA (Shepseskare, Menkauhor Kaiu, Unas) and GA (Sahure, Pyramid of Userkaf) articles on the 5th Dynasty. Iry-Hor (talk) 09:11, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Chiswick Chap

What a well-finished article! At a first glance there is little to comment on. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:58, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please wikilink serekh, Byblos.
Even simple terms like mummy and pyramid might be worth linking.

Done. Iry-Hor (talk) 11:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please also wikilink vizier, necropolis, oracle/oracular, sarcophagus, cylinder seal. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:04, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"disposes of a causeway" could simply be "has a causeway", I think. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:04, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We can link Michel Baud among the Egyptologists. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:07, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Done I have added links to all of these except cylinder seal which is already linked to. Iry-Hor (talk) 14:21, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Actually I meant the image caption, I can link it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:24, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Chiswick Chap Thank you! Iry-Hor (talk) 15:50, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well it looks very good to me, and it's informative, readable, well-illustrated, and well-sourced, so I'm happy to Support. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:10, 12 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Iry-Hor (talk) 10:04, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

File:Petrie_Statue_of_Djedkare_from_Abydos.png needs a US PD tag. Same with File:Petrie_Relief_of_Inti_from_Dishasha.png. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:23, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nikkimaria Done, in both cases the author died over 70 years ago and the pics were published over 100 years ago in the US. I added the tags. Iry-Hor (talk) 15:50, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

Looks pretty good generally, but "In particular, the earliest known depiction of a battle or city being besieged[160] is found in the tomb of Inti, an official from the 21st nome of Upper Egypt, who lived during the late Fifth Dynasty." looks questionable given that, just among objects with WP articles, there are the Battlefield Palette of 500+ years earlier, and the Mesopotamian Stele of the Vultures of around the same date as this one. Restrict a bit maybe?
Is this the same Inti as Senedjemib Inti, who btw is linked only at his 2nd mention? His article does not mention the battle scene. Also, is it a relief; hard to tell from the pic?

Johnbod (talk) 14:45, 11 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Johnbod Done: For the first point, I have changed the sentence a bit to "one of the earliest", to be clear I was just following the source (Strudwick), a well known Egyptologist who says "the earliest", I think he is referring to the fact that we are sure an actual battle / siege is depicted, the battle / siege was narrated on the walls of the tomb in a text unfortunately lost. For your second point, this is another Inti not the same as Senedjemib Inti. The scene is indeed a relief as indicated in the caption of the figure. Iry-Hor (talk) 09:37, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support Johnbod (talk) 16:47, 29 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support I did the GAN review for the article and thought then that it was a potential FAC. Happy to support. Tim riley talk 09:41, 12 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tim riley Thank you and also thank you for your GA review! Iry-Hor (talk) 10:03, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from A. Parrot

I mainly did a source review. All the sources are reliable, and my spot-checks found no errors. I do question the Archive.org link for Hornung, Krauss, & Warburton; Archive.org has been known to infringe copyright before, and I see no evidence that this book has been made freely available online.

Done Ok I removed the link to be on the safe side. Iry-Hor (talk) 09:52, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Other than that, I only have a few comments:

The last paragraph in the lead section needs some qualification, given Strudwick's doubt that Djedkare's reforms weakened the kingdom. A. Parrot (talk) 00:35, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A. Parrot Done since most Egyptologists such as Grimal, Tyldesley, Kanawati, Malek etc. believe Djedkare's reforms are responsible I left the last paragraph as is until the last sentence where I mention Studwick's doubts on the matter: "These conclusions are rejected by Nigel Strudwick, who observes that in spite of Djedkare's reforms, Ancient Egyptian officials never amassed enough power to rival that of the king." Iry-Hor (talk) 09:47, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"These artifacts are now scattered throughout the world in many museums including the Louvre Museum, the Petrie Museum, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, and the Egyptian Museum of Berlin." I'm not sure that fact is noteworthy. Any pharaoh with a fairly long reign is going to end up with artifacts in multiple museum collections. A. Parrot (talk) 00:35, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ok do you want me to remove this sentence, or perhaps, put it in a footnote? I only wanted to wikilink some of the museums where Djedkare's artefacts can be found as I thought such a non-exhaustive list could be interesting for potential museum visitors. By doing so I linked to the online catalogs of these museums so that the original artefacts can be seen by the reader. Iry-Hor (talk) 09:47, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You could do either one, but I would just leave that sentence out. Djedkare's reign doesn't seem to have produced particularly interesting artifacts. A. Parrot (talk) 16:59, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A. Parrot Done I have put it in a footnote, as for Djedkare's reign not producing notable artifacts just look at this cosmetic plate (far from unique but a very fine example!) Iry-Hor (talk) 07:41, 14 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a reason why the last sentence of the "Parents" section doesn't have a citation? A. Parrot (talk) 00:35, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Done I had forgotten to put it. It has now been added. Iry-Hor (talk) 09:47, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"…three viziers would be in office at the same time: two in the Memphite region and a Southern one, the 'Governor of Upper Egypt', in the province, with a seat at Abydos." I'm not sure what "in the province" is meant to mean here. A. Parrot (talk) 00:35, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Done I meant "not in Memphis" since the capital of Egypt was in Saqqara south at the time, in an area that would become Memphis during the 6th Dynasty. I removed it since it is clear that Abydos is not in Memphis. Iry-Hor (talk)

Support A. Parrot (talk) 17:00, 14 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Caeciliusinhorto

Is there any particular reason for putting the section on "historical sources" above the one on "contemporary sources"? I would have thought it would make more sense to have the two subsections in chronological order. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:28, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Caeciliusinhorto Done this is a very good point that I will follow from now on when I edit pharaoh articles. It makes much more sense this way! Iry-Hor (talk) 07:41, 14 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Another question: in the section on the funerary cult, the translated inscriptions mentioned sometimes render Isesi's nomen as Isesi, and sometimes as Izezi. Is there a reason for this inconsistency? Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:34, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is because two hieroglyphic variants exist for the letter "s/z", some Egyptologists do not write the difference between these two when translating/transliterating a text, others mark one with a "s" and the other with a "z". Both variants were used for Isesi (it seems they were interchanged relatively freely by Ancient Egyptians) and Brovarsky, the author of the book where the names of the estates are given, is among those Egyptologists writing the difference with a "s" or a "z". I can harmonize everything if you prefer, but this would make some names slightly different from what they are in the source. P.S: did you know that you could click on the [Show] button right of "Royal titulary" in the pharaoh infobox to reveal the full names of Djedkare? I am wondering if wikipedia readers know that? Iry-Hor (talk) 07:41, 14 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you have a good reason for the way it is now, I don't think you need to change it, and that certainly sounds like a perfectly valid reason. I did wonder whether there were two different hieroglyphs being transliterated, but I thought I'd check to make sure it wasn't simply an error. (No, I didn't notice the "[show]" button for Djedkare's titles in the infobox. Looking at it now, I see the two different hieroglyphic spellings for his nomen are both given there!) Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 10:41, 14 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

ok good to know, I think most readers just miss this, perhaps the show button should be in bold. I might raise this issue on the infobox talk page. Iry-Hor (talk) 13:05, 14 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Caeciliusinhorto could you possibly indicate if you support or oppose the nomination of Djedkare Isesi to FA so as to close the discussion above? Iry-Hor (talk) 08:38, 28 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Looks good to me. Sorry about the wait! Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 09:58, 28 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)

I see you have enough supports already, so I just did some light copyediting. One comment: be careful not to flipflop verb tenses starting in the Reign section. - Dank (push to talk) 20:54, 29 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment -- Just a suggestion as I close this review, Iry-Hor, it might be good to try and vary the lead so the subject's name doesn't commence all four of the paragraphs; admittedly nothing quickly came to mind on how best to effect this but you might think about it... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:10, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 14:10, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.