Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Darth Vader/archive2

Darth Vader

It is a very good article, or at least I think so. It has several images, plenty of words, and lots of information. Gang sta EB (sliding logs~dive logs) 13:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support I am the nominator. Gang sta EB (sliding logs~dive logs) 13:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment it has some {{fact}} templates as well as a {{in-universe}} and a {{Unreferenced}} at the bottom of the page. -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 14:02, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why are unreferenced and cleanup tags at the end of the article: aren't they supposed to be at the top? Kind of hard to support an article with tags. Sandy 14:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is the reason I didn't see those... Gang sta EB (sliding logs~dive logs) 14:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Lacks references. The Wookieepedian 14:44, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Object due to the lack of references. -- Underneath-it-All 17:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Object due to an extensive amount of fancruft.Dan 18:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- This comment is not particularly helpful. Raul654 06:13, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - The entire "Talents and powers" section is wholly unencyclopedic. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - Ever seen an article about Darth Vader in an encyclopedia? However, I quite agree and I have moved that section to the talk page. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose due to lack of references and excess in-universe details that need to be compressed, trimmed, and reworded. — Deckill e r 19:11, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Object. I concur with the above. Moreover, the article contains possible OR in such speculative lines as "Judging by the origin of the other Sith names, Vader may also possibly be a derivative of the word 'invader,'" and "Darth Vader also resembles an inverted King Arthur in relationship with Luke Skywalker as an inverted Mordred." I'm unsure if this is objectionable, but I also dislike the biography's structure: shouldn't the prequel and its developments precede discussion of the original triology?--Monocrat 04:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- No, because it isn't a biography; it's a plot summary. Putting the prequels first moves the emphasis away from how the character developed in real life (from fearsome blackguard to conflicted villain to fallen hero) to how the character developed in a fictional universe. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the writing could be much cleaner, the references are lacking and are mostly cruftic in nature. Surely there have been numerous commentaries on Darth Vader from scholars which are independent of the Star Wars fan club and their work should be cited. The cultural figure section is not very good, focusing on a list of examples (some of which are shall we say... marginal...) rather than commentary. The talents and powers section is crufty beyond belief. No effort is made towards conciseness, especially in the plot sections (also crufty, e.g. "Vader turns on his master and throws him into a deep shaft, where he explodes in a fury of dark energies."). Pascal.Tesson 03:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose misplaced spoiler warning disrupts flow of article. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:34, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- How is it misplaced? Where should it go? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 14:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

{{spoiler}}

- - "the Death Star is destroyed moments later," should be removed, a paragraph break and a spoiler tag should be inserted before "Vader then reveals his true identity...", all mentions of "father" should be excised from Return of the jedi, paragraph break and spoiler tag before "Unable to bear the sight of his son in pain," remove vast majority of "Prequel trilogy," as it is better explained in the Anakin Skywalker (seperate issue), except for stub describing the transition and reasons for, which requires no spoiler tags. Spoilers should only be provided for plot details that would severly detract from an individuals ability to enjoy the movie - only the father in empire and the ending of return do so. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - It's absurd enough that there's a seperate page for Anakin Skywalker (the same person) without creating a spoiler tag tornado of "begin/end" tags here. There's a single tag at the top of the page before the table of contents already. Organization and presentation on this character have already been infringed enough without further breaking down format through the use of several "begin/end" tags and the removal of vital information. For that matter, I really don't see how this qualifies as a spoiler in the eyes of any culture anyway. Prior to the release of the prequel trilogy, "Anakin Skywalker" was synonomous with "Darth Vader" (we'd never known him as anything but that), and when the prequel trilogy came along, the filmmakers themselves casually talked about the fact that Anakin's transformation into Darth Vader would be revealed. Even one of the posters advertising The Phantom Menace showed young Anakin standing beside a wall, with his shadow being the silhouette of Darth Vader. Ryu Kaze 14:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Try and find a few more references :)... --Skully Collins 07:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: There's far too few references, too great an in-universe presentation, unencyclopedic and flowery wording (ex: "Vader still possesses his former persona's amazing engineering skills..."), a lot of cruft mixed with fan speculation, and it's just way too bloated. Quite simiply, there's a lot of unnecessary information that isn't vital to an understanding of the character (most of which is the aforementioned cruft, in sections like "Talents" and "Cultural", though "Behind", "Cultural" and even "Expanded Universe" have some too).

Overall, it needs a complete copy-edit, with the original trilogy info being condensed a bit more (though I'm pleased to see that it's as short as it is; Return of the Jedi is the only one that's excessive in terms of quantity; Hope and Empire aren't bad at all). Additionally, an out-of-universe perspective and encyclopedic tone needs to be assumed all throughout. This means lines like "However, he controls his anger..." through "...Jedi's funeral" could be condensed into something as simple as "However, he restrains himself and refuses to kill Vader. Due to this, Palpatine decides that Luke is unsuitable as an apprentice and attacks him with Force lightning. Unable to defend himself, Luke begs Vader for help, finally prompting him to betray and kill the Emperor by throwing him into a shaft leading to the Death Star's core. However, errant bolts of Palpatine's Force lightning destroy Vader's life support system, and he orders Luke to escape from the Death Star without him. Despite Luke's protests and attempt to save his father's life, Vader soon dies from his injuries, but is able to reconcile with Luke and pass away peacefully. Luke then escapes from the battle station, taking Vader's body with him, and later burning it in the manner of a Jedi's funeral". Basically, let the facts speak for themselves. The reader doesn't need to be blatantly told that Luke refuses to kill Vader while realizing that his anger was just sending him down the same path that his father had walked. An understanding of what happened to Vader will convey that well enough on its own.

There's good stuff here, but a lot of it needs to be reworded and seperated from the unencyclopedic material. Ryu Kaze 14:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. "Behind the scenes" should be named something like "Character design". Ryu Kaze 14:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Object far too many citation needed templates in use, the lead section is not a good summary of the main points of the article, "Expanded universe" needs to be rewritten (at the very least explain what an "expanded universe" means in Star Wars terms), there is a "Trivia" section (bad, bad, bad!!!) that should be merged into the main article. Very far from being ready, though I do see a lot of effort has gone into it, and I do appreciate the effort that has been undertaken to get it to FA status. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:21, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]