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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 21 October 2021 [1].

Cyclone Dumazile

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Nominator(s): NoahTalk 21:18, 20 September 2021 (UTC) & ~ KN2731 {talk · contribs}[reply]

This article is about Cyclone Dumazile, the third in a series of five storms that brought heavy, damaging rainfall to Réunion in 2018. NoahTalk 21:18, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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Support from Hurricanehink

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Support - I'm happy with the work done to the article. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:24, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • that brought flooding to the east coast of Madagascar and Réunion - that implies east coast of "Réunion". I think it works fine if it's just "flooding to Madagascar and Réunion."
  • In Réunion, Dumazile came less than two months after Cyclone Berguitta dropped torrential rainfall over the island in mid-January. This meant ongoing repairs to bridges and reconstruction efforts after Berguitta were interrupted or set back, especially on the highway between Îlet Furçy and Cilaos. - I think this could be stronger, and I have issues with "came less than two months" and the flow, and not sure about how . Something like - "Cyclone Dumazile followed less than two months after Cyclone Berguitta affected Réunion, disrupting ongoing repairs to bridges and reconstruction efforts." Then you can mention the heavy rainfall from Dumazile (ideally with the rainfall total), and then you can get into the damaged road network, where you can mention the highway.
  • So you mention the roads in two parts, once related to floods/landslides, and the other due to trees. Any way of combining all three into a single mention of the roads?
  • " In Madagascar, rainfall warnings were issued for most of the east coast and some flooding occurred in Toamasina, as a result of malfunctioning drainage systems after Cyclone Ava in January. " - split into two sentences. One for the warnings, the other for flooding.
  • Is it worth linking the other places in Madagascar other than Toamasina?
  • Could you mention somewhere in the lead and the MH that the storm formed in the South-west Indian Ocean? Kinda important.
  • "A pocket of dry air to Dumazile's west caused the cyclone's low-level circulation center to briefly become exposed, before it was quickly obscured by new bursts of thunderstorms.[" - is "obscured" the right term here? Usually, people think of "obscured" as a negative thing. Could you explain what it means for the circulation to be exposed (dislocated from the convection), and another verb describing the new burst of thunderstorms.
  • Could you add in the MH how close the storm got to the east coast of Madagascar? Ditto for how close it got to Reunion? (or at least a mention of the island, considering how much the article describes the effects there)
  • "Floodwaters cut off access to Saint-Denis from all but one road. The coastal and mountain highways were closed;[24] a section of the latter road was covered in debris after a landslide occurred. Strong waves submerged four lanes of the coastal highway with seawater, and 150 mm (5.9 in) of rain fell on a cliff overlooking the road." - I'm confused, was the "latter road" the "all but one road"? Or is there only one mountain highway? Maybe talk about these roads separately, since incidents happened on both?
  • Has the RN5 highway been rebuilt yet?
  • What is "The MNS station"?
  • The Reunion section is a bit weirdly formatted. It would be nicer if there was a paragraph on preparations/preceding storms, one on the general impacts (and the bit of aftermath), one on the more specific impacts? There doesn't seem to be a logical flow right now.
  • This is the only part that I still think needs work. You mention roads in three separate paragraphs, ditto landslides. Like, I get that the first paragraph mentions the preparations and some meteorological details, but what is the heirarchy of the other three paragraphs? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:48, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Hurricanehink: The first paragraph has general information regarding roadways (damage/closures) on the island, the second one contains numerous specific occurrences (specific roads closed/affected and in towns), and the RN5 highway is mentioned in the last paragraph due to the prolonged closure and aftermath associated with it. I didn't think it made sense to mention the RN5 highway being closed in one sentence and then bring up the highway again later. I adjusted the landslides (other than the RN5 highway occurrence) since there wasn't much structure for it. NoahTalk 03:07, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's a decent article right now, but needs some more love. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:54, 20 September 2021 (UTC) "Getting better. All of my concerns were addressed but one. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:48, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Clayoquot

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(Just starting this. More comments to come.) Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 21:43, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Ref #37 is to a Tweet. Shouldn't we be referencing the news story instead of a Tweet about the news story?
  • "with its Dual Frequency Precipitation Radar" - why is this level of detail on instrumentation important?
  • Simply using radar isn't sufficient enough. There are many types of radar and a reader could think it was a doppler radar or another type commonly used, which it isn't. NoahTalk 22:14, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Setback" is used as a verb. "Set back" is a verb; "setback" is a noun.
  • "Ports were also damaged by the waves, and in the case of Saint-Gilles, was clogged by debris." - this reads a bit awkwardly as it mixes plural and singular. Perhaps reword it as "Ports were also damaged by the waves, and the Port of Saint-Gilles was clogged by debris."?
  • "Amid favourable environmental conditions, Dumazile strengthened" had me doing a bit of a double take. Can it be rephrased to avoid suggesting conditions that intensify a storm are a good thing?
  • This kind of phrasing is commonplace in meteorology. It isn't meant to imply the conditions were a good thing, but rather in the context of the storm, they were good for it. I have modified it to avoid mentioning favourable. NoahTalk 01:33, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the disturbance improved in organisation" - as above, try rephrasing to avoid terms like "improved" which suggest that the storm was a good thing. Perhaps "the disturbance became more organised"?
  • "to declare Dumazile became" isn't quite grammatical. I think this should be " to declare Dumazile had become"
  • "water boil advisory" should be "boil-water advisory". See Boil-water advisory for other synonyms.
  • The part about lack of potable water, water dearths, etc. needs clarification. "Water dearths" is an odd phrase - can you say this another way? The source seems to be saying that tap water was cut off temporarily to certain areas. This doesn't necessarily mean that there was a lack of potable water (e.g. bottled water may have been available, or there may have been ways to collect rainwater).
  • "Authorities worked to clear out drainage systems" - why is this worthy of note? Isn't this something authorities do routinely?
  • "multiple projects were proposed in December 2020 to further safeguard the highway from the effects of weather events as a result of the 2018 shutdown's long duration" - could use rewording, as it could be interpreted as saying that weather events were caused by the long duration of the shutdown.
Yup. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 04:37, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead refers to "riots" in Toamasina, but the body of the article mentions only one riot. I ran the cited Malagasy source through Google Translate and it translated the event as a "student strike" with four students charged with property damage. Are you sure the source(s) say "riot", and if so how many riots were there?
  • Changed to protest even if that is misleading since the source doesnt explicitly state riot. Im assuming it to be OR for me call it a riot even if there is property damage and looting by the whole involved group. NoahTalk 13:04, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are there any other sources that can help clarify the nature and significance of this incident? There's a big difference between a riot, a strike, and a protest. When I first read the Wikipedia article I got the impression that people rioted because they objected to how the government was not doing enough to keep power on. After reading a translation of the source, I came away with the impression of students taking advantage of the darkness and chaos to let off steam about nothing in particular. If the only source is the one Midi Madagasikara article, I wonder 1) whether it's important enough to mention in the lead, and 2) do you understand Malagasy well enough to know exactly what the source is saying, or if not, can you enlist someone who does understand Malagasy? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 17:59, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    There's not really anything source-wise that can help to clarify this. Sources are far and few for the African continent, especially for storms like this that aren't very damaging or especially deadly. I can attest that while searching in Malagasy, I found absolutely no results. We did search some local news sites written in Malagasy to find the two sources you mention below. Most of the local Madagascar sources I found were written in French, which is another official language for the country. The word in this case directly translates as strike with protest and riot being vastly different words. The reason I originally labeled it a riot was because it met the common legal definition of one, specifically in regards to the destruction of property and looting. Would you recommend I put it as a strike per the source? I can remove this from the lead since it wasn't a severe event. NoahTalk 23:00, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I understand the constraints. I guess "strike" is the best term to use, although it raises the question of why the students were striking. I agree with removing it from the lead since this is the only available source - if it was more significant it would probably have been picked up more widely. Thanks for looking into this. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 23:32, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Modified to strike. NoahTalk 23:40, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Why was the strike added back to the lead? Also, do the sources support saying that the strike was instigated by power outages? Reading the L'Express source, it says that the students had been involved in several disturbances and that their behaviour during Dumazille was "the drop that made the vase overflow," suggesting that the incident during Dumazille wasn't by itself major. The source mentions one power outage but does not suggest that power outages were the motive. It would seem strange to respond to a power outage by throwing rocks at passing vehicles on the highway. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 05:39, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I saw "Dumazile caused power outages in Toamasina on 4 March, sparking a strike.[64][65]" below, and added it back to the lead on the premise that it's notable and interesting enough, being a direct effect of the storm (though the L'Express source now appears to contradict that). I think Noah may be more familiar with what's going on here. ~ KN2731 {talk · contribs} 06:52, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Two of the sources directly mention the power outages as the motive while the L'Express source doesn't mention the motive specifically for this instance, however, it does state this was part of a pattern. That source is also focusing more on the events following the strike rather than the strike itself. I have again removed it from the lead as I don't think it is notable enough for there. NoahTalk 13:14, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. One more issue on the student incident: The new L'Express source doesn't use the French word for strike, which is "grève". It uses the French word "manifestation" which usually translates into English as "demonstration" or could be translated as "incident". I suggest using the generic term "incident" as the sources don't seem to agree on the term "strike" and the event sounds more like people acting like jerks than anything else. Or consider not mentioning the incident - students being expelled for acting like jerks is routine stuff whether or not there is a hurricane. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:52, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed your comment since I assume you meant to reply to both of ours. I changed the word to incident per your request. There is a difference in my opinion between acting like jerks and de facto rioting. I believe most people would want to see the conclusion to this similar to saying whether or not a dam failed or possibly something else. It provides a conclusion to the event. NoahTalk 00:37, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • In regards to both of these comments, I found an online local news cache containing a number of sources that can be used for Madagascar (apparently not available in the various search engines). It will take a while to go through all of it, although I did see some just corroborate what sources already in this article have. I likely will have some time tomorrow afternoon to begin that. Most of the sources in question are French, however, there are a few Malagasy ones as well. Over 2/3 of the Madagascan media sites don't even mention Dumazile period so it likely was just isolated to a few regions. NoahTalk 00:42, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Great, thanks for looking into this. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 02:44, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Update: I have added in everything except the Newsmada site. I haven't looked at any of the articles there yet in detail, however, they do have an extensive coverage of Dumazile there. EDIT: I found 9 total sources, some of which just corroborate details already in the article. NoahTalk 14:13, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Schools were suspended in The Ambalavola District was left underwater" - it looks like some words were accidentally deleted here.
  • Wikilinking: Where other cyclones (Bergitta, Ava, etc.) are mentioned, it would be very helpful to link to their articles. At a minimum, link these names on the first occurrence after the lead (in addition to in the lead, which was already done). Linking once per section would not be overkill in this case.
  • New sources look great. I admire how much work you've put into collecting local perspectives. I have a few more comments below, in addition to my comment above about the strike.
  • I don't understand this sentence: "Strong winds and heavy rains destroyed flat houses, light poles, and metal sheeting from Toamasina to Ste Marie". What is a "flat house"? Are you sure metal sheeting was destroyed, as opposed to being blown off buildings? Metal sheeting is difficult to destroy.
  • Linked to the appropriate article for the first part. Unfortunately, the source doesnt elaborate on whether the sheets were blown off. It simply lists the items as being destroyed, similarly to how I have done. Reason would indicate the sheets were blown off and/or damaged beyond use. NoahTalk 13:14, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. The term "flat house" needs to be changed, as a flat is by definition not a house. If the article uses British English you could use "housing flats". If the article uses American English, the term would be "apartments". Or you could just say "homes".
I ran the source through Google Translate and it was written in present tense, saying "All the way to Ste Marie, heavy rains and winds are destroying the concrete buildings, light poles and metal plates." This, if Google's translation is correct, doesn't fully support the assertion that these things were destroyed; a more accurate term would be "caused damaged to". Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:40, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Weird... I ran it through just now and got a different, but similar output. I changed it to damaged and homes. NoahTalk 00:37, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Support from TRM

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  • Why is the name "Intense Tropical Cyclone Dumazile" in the opening sentence? Intense Tropical Cyclone Dumazile doesn't link here and the common name is just Cyclone Dumazile. Why is "Intense Tropical" in bold too?
  • Intense Tropical Cyclone Dumazile is the official name of the storm, however, per our naming conventions we shorten the article title to Cyclone Dumazile as it is more concise and less cumbersome. Intense Tropical is included in the bold as it is a part of the full name of the storm. I created the appropriate redirect for the link you mentioned. NoahTalk 18:17, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in Salazie," link?
  • "Îlet Furçy" ditto
  • "Map plotting the track and intensity of the storm, according to the Saffir–Simpson scale" but how? That's not explained. I imagine it's to do with the track colour, but that doesn't appear to have a key. And is that detail accessible to people with screen readers?
  • There is a key on commons that is in the summary for the image which explains the plotting. No, this map is not accessible to people with screen readers. Given the graphical nature of the map, it would be impossible to display the data for people with screen readers unless the map and its key were physical. Any changes to these maps, such as including the commons key in the EN WP template, would require consensus considering the template is transcluded thousands of times. NoahTalk 18:17, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • In all honesty, I'm not bothered by the "thousands of transclusions" argument. We have to make images accessible, especially in our "finest" work. If you don't want to do that, that's your prerogative, but I won't support articles which prevent information being accessed by people with restricted access. If you can't make the same information available to those who can't see the image, then it's an immediate oppose. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 18:23, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is absolutely no way to make a graphical map 100% accessible and I consider that to be unactionable. I did incorporate some locations into the alt text to hopefully convey the path a bit better. The information on which this track map is based can be found in the meteorological history section. We mention the path the storm took and the major status changes. I get that you want all the data it contains to be 100% accessible to those who can't see, but that's not possible. I can work on getting the key added (likely also has to be in image form for technical reasons), but that will take time and consensus. Added the key into the box in text format as I found a way to make it work without bloating the track box up (to avoid creating sandwiching issues on numerous articles). I BOLDly added it in since I found a way to make it less intrusive. NoahTalk 18:58, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "at Grand Îlet. " this is the only geographical entity which appears to be redlinked. Logic?
  • "barriers in Tampon were" link?
  • "during Cyclone Ava.[52] Knee" overlinked.
  • What are CISCO and ZAP schools?
  • Refs 59, 60, 62 and 67 have spaced hyphens, should be en-dashes.
  • Ref 7: SHOUTING.
  • Any chance of translating those non-English reference titles using trans-title parameter in the citation templates?

That's all I have on a quick pass. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 10:58, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have fixed all of the concerns above except for the one that I view as unactionable. NoahTalk 16:11, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I really appreciate the effort you've gone to in order to address my issues. I realise that translating a map into something accessible is a real challenge, but you've done a good job, and thank you. I'm also happy with the remainder of my comments, so I'm supporting this nomination. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 17:06, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from CodingCyclone

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Note: Requested on my talk.

  • "was named Dumazile the next day" You can probably remove "Dumazile" here. It's already established twice that its name is Dumazile.
  • "That night, increased thunderstorm activity in conjunction with an easterly wind burst furthered development, and the MFR reported that the system became Tropical Disturbance 06 at 06:00 UTC on 2 March; at the same time, the Joint Typhoon Warning Center (JTWC) classified the system as a tropical depression." Seems a bit long. Maybe split up at "...2 March; at..."
  • "to declare Dumazile had" Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it should probably be "to declare that Dumazile had".
  • "pre-warning was ended" "Was" can probably be cut.
  • "and daycare facilities" Is there a specific reason for adding this detail?
  • "East and westbound traffic, traveling across the island, was restricted to the Plaines highway due to other roads flooding." Pretty sure the two commas can be cut, and a comma should be added after "highway".
  • "after the storm...during the storm." Repetitive.
  • "during cyclones Berguitta," The same wording was used just a couple sentences before. Maybe cut "cyclones"?
  • "cyclones Ava," Same thing.
  • "The RN5 highway later reopened; multiple projects were proposed in December 2020 to further safeguard the highway from the effects of weather events. These proposals occurred as a result of the 2018 shutdown's long duration. Authorities in Saint-Paul municipality worked to create a barrier made of boulders, repair an observation deck, and repair ramps leading to the Roches Noires beach. The project was estimated to cost about €46,000 (US$56,000)." Any update on this one?
  • "spilled their banks" Wording seems off; change to "river banks overflowed"?
  • "Residents in Toamasina chose to remain in their homes instead of evacuating to shelters in an effort to protect their property." This is a bit of a generalization. How many decided to remain in their homes? The majority? Or only a relatively small percentage?
  • "supplies ran low...supplies ran low" Repetitive wording.

That's all from me. Please ping me when everything's completed. Overall an interesting read! I need to continue working on the timeline for this topic as well. codingcyclone please ping/my wreckage 02:04, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@CodingCyclone: I believe I have addressed your comments. NoahTalk 21:14, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for getting back to me. Now happy to support. codingcyclone please ping/my wreckage 21:41, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from LightandDark2000

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  • "Yellow alerts were issued for the Manampatrana and Matitanana rivers as water-levels neared critical levels." Don't need the hypen for "water levels".
  • "sparking an incident in which three passing cars were damaged by rocks, and tires were burned." By whom? The article doesn't provide any clues until a couple of sentences later. The readers should not be left to guess. Also, link "incident" to riot. I think the term should be linked, for the readers' benefit. As for the link target, we should call a spade a spade. Political correctness crap shouldn't affect how we cover our subjects.
  • Adjusted the wording in the first sentence. We can't link riot unless it is explicitly called one due to implications. There is widescale division on such things as it was rough to even get riot in for the Capitol attack even with sources calling it one. This certainly shouldn't be called or linked to riot if the sources don't explicitly state that. NoahTalk 21:22, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Ambilobe-Antsiranana road (RN6) reopened on 13 March after suffering flood damage during the storm." Add a comma after "13 March."

That's all I could find. I think that everything else has been covered by the others above. As for the "accessibility issue", I believe that adding the map legend to the track map image template (which has been done), is good enough. Some things just can't be done. Graphics, such as maps (whether it be storm tracks or battle maps) just can't be made accessible to blind people, unfortunately. The Meteorological history is sufficiently descriptive here. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 17:03, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nonsense, we have tools such as alt text and descriptive captions which can help. Your comment is truly unhelpful and incorrect. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 17:07, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Figured I should reply here as well. Alt text for the track maps would run quite long if we were to describe the whole track of the storm in detail. Would just describing the general shape of the track (e.g. "The storm was weak and barely strengthened throughout its lifetime. It generally went northwest during its life.") be sufficient? Or would we have to add more detail to that? codingcyclone please ping/my wreckage 18:38, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Really good alt text would describe the journey of the cyclone and its intensity. I'm not an expert, but there's no reason as far as I can tell that alt text can't be completely descriptive of the image, especially when it imparts information that is not accessible otherwise. I guess the other way of looking at it is to just forget people with accessibility issues by saying "it's not actionable". I dunno. Personally, at the moment I have no issues with my access, but I know people who do and it would be great if Wikipedia could uphold great standards, not just claiming comments can't be addressed. But I understand that takes time and energy. I supported the nomination and the efforts made, but I realise it's a really niche requirement. I guess one day we'll all understand that a tiny bit more effort makes it much much better for a tiny set of society. Easy to overlook or dismiss that effort as "in-actionable" when it's truly not. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 19:06, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: Really good alt text would describe the journey of the cyclone and its intensity. This is what the text in the meteorological history is for. Also, what's your suggestion for the alt text for Dumazile's track map? Destroyer (Alternate account) 01:41, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@LightandDark2000:I believe I have addressed your comments. NoahTalk 21:22, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Now Supporting. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 21:33, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Destroyeraa

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I'll do more of this tomorrow. Destroyer (Alternate account) 01:44, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Why is the track map located in the middle of meteorological history section? I prefer it to be adjacent to the first paragraph, similar to all other tropical cyclone articles.
It's located there to prevent MOS:SANDWICHING issues. The text in the met can get scrunched between it and the infobox on screens larger than my own laptop's. NoahTalk 02:16, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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Pass. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:43, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecks not done. Version reviewed

  • I'm not happy with listing a general damage figure in the infobox when the text shows this to be a figure associated with only a specific sector and only a specific place. It may be technically true because of the >, but it's misleading. Suggest omitting.
  • "Torrential rainfall, peaking over 1,600 mm (63 in) in Salazie" - the text supports that number at that place, but doesn't specify that it was a peak. Source for this?
  • FN27: the publisher name at the source site appears to be different? And FN34 appears to be the same site and has a slightly different name - check throughout
  • Why does News Mada not include full names for authors?
  • There appears to have been some discussion of this cyclone in the research literature, eg [2]. What was your approach to looking for sources?

Nikkimaria (talk) 20:34, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • I had to use the Google Scholar and ones I have access to through my university (found nothing else through ebscohost and the university) specifically to find more academic literature, rather than general searching through various search engines. Does Google Scholar need to be included in these references or should that be excluded? NoahTalk 09:31, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Query for the coordinators

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@FAC coordinators: Would it be okay if I nominate another article? NoahTalk 11:23, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hang on for now Noah, I am waiting to see what Nikkimaria makes of your recent tweaks to the sourcing. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:29, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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