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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:33, 23 August 2011 [1].

Corn Crake

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Corn Crake (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:05, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Once common, and the cause of many sleepless nights, this rail has now declined over much of its range due to changes in haymaking techniques. There is a bucketful of information out there, but much is repetitive or concerned with local conservation projects. If I've omitted anything important, let me know Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:05, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • The page title is Corn Crake, the main infobox uses Conrcrake. I advise you choose one or the other. I haven't actually read the nomination, I just noticed that when I clicked on. And now for the real reason I'm here:
  • Image Review
    • All the required information at the description page for File:Crexcrex.png seems to be there, but it really should be in a template. 07:18, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
  • The template is not a "Requirement" however it is the closest thing to a gold standard that we have for the logical and orderly display of the information, so it's a "strongly recommended" in my book. I'll look into the display issues for you. Sven Manguard Wha? 12:51, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • The information at the description page for File:Crex crex00.jpg needs to have an English translation. 07:18, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
    • Both images in the section "Behaviour" need caption text.
    • I am personally not a fan of the White Stork image being in the article. If it stays, it needs to be clarified. What is mowing? It just says "The White Stork will kill chicks exposed by mowing", and the text in that section dosen't give any indication as to what you're referring to either. Sven Manguard Wha? 07:18, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I usually show a predator or parasite, it's appropriate in this section and hasn't been queried before. I assume that "mow" was a common enough word not to need a link, but maybe a different term is used for grass cutting in North America. Now linked in caption and first occurrence in text. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:16, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:31, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Koffijberg, Kees or Kees, Koffijberg?
  • Be consistent in how editors are notated
  • Ref 22: which volume is being consulted here? Also, is there meant to be a hyphen at the end of the ISBN, or is something missing?
  • Series names should generally not be italicized
  • What do CMS and AEWA stand for? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:31, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for review. All above fixed. I couldn't see any other editor inconsistencies apart from the Kees/Koffijberg slip, let me know if I've missed something. Ref 22 tweaked and isbn fixed. Series name removed, abbreviations spelt out. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:28, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - There were a few typos such as "...a loud nocturnal call that sometimes leadto disturbed sleep for rural dwellers, the Corn Crake..." under the In Culture section. Also, in the Status section, the phrase "In much of the west of its range," was at first a bit confusing. It might be beneficial to change it to something such as "In much of the western half of its range," A ctrl+F search showed that in the Distribution and Habitat section, "Corncrake" appeared twice. In the Status section, "Corncrake" appears three times, one of which is lacking capitalization. I am unsure if this is necessary, but you might consider adding a source stating that its name was derived from the krek krek call of the male. Hopefully my comments are of use, even if they are a bit "nitpicky". Micromann (talk) 10:06, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for comments. Typos fixed, also name — I'm afraid I still think of it as one word. "Status" tweaked as suggested. With regard to the call, if you mean in the Lead section, having references there is now discouraged. The derivation and the call are referenced under "Taxonomy" and "Voice" respectively. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:17, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lit review Sorry I'm late to the party. I'm not sure if the comprehensive criterion is yet met. There's a lot of published scientific literature... here's a small sampling of publications from 2009–2011 that, judging by their titles, look interesting and possibly suitable for inclusion. I can prepare a more comprehensive list if you like. Sasata (talk) 21:50, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Reply Thanks for lit review. I said in the nom above that there is a huge amount of literature, and I've had to be selective. I get no clear sense from the list of what you think has been inadequately covered. I've deliberately avoided articles like the Yorkshire one — there are lots of similar regional items, mostly in the UK, and I thought it more important to paint the overall picture for Europe, rather than have an endless parochial list of local declines. Similarly, of those articles I've seen, I can't see what the Irish, Transyvanian or Egyptian articles add in terms of new content, as opposed to local detail. I've used several of Rhys Green's studies, but I couldn't see that the one you quote was adding a great deal that was new. I have used the Graham source now, which I overlooked despite having a hard copy. It's a captive study, but since it suggests only that only the male builds the nest, whereas the prestigious BWP, and all other sources which give an opinion (Taylor doesn't), say only the female, that's clearly worth mentioning. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:22, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you're right, in retrospect most are local reports. I'll move this list to the archive talk page; I'm away for about a week, and will give a full review then. Sasata (talk) 06:27, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Consider all my comments below dealt with; I believe the article meets FA criteria. Sasata (talk) 12:53, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've made several changes to the article text to save time; please review and revert if you don't agree
  • link chestnut, downy
  • "This secretive species builds a nest of grass leaves in a hollow in the ground and lays 6–14 rufous-blotched cream-coloured eggs." Would it be better to avoid the double hyphen complex with something like "This secretive species builds a nest of grass leaves in a hollow in the ground and lays 6–14 cream-coloured eggs that are covered with rufous blotches."?
  • "The Corn Crake is omnivorous, but mainly feeds on invertebrates, along with small frogs and mammals, and plant material including grass seed and cereal grain." Perhaps this could be tweaked slightly; one might read this as small frogs and mammals also eat invertebrates.
  • "Occasional small frog or mammal" 06:40, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
  • link introduced, taxonomy, wetland, specific name
  • "The English names refer to this species' nesting in dry hay or cereal fields, rather than the marshes used by most members of this family." The somewhat awkward noun+ing construction could be tweaked to "The English names refer to the habit of the species to nest in dry hay or cereal fields, rather than the marshes used by most members of this family."
  • link tawny
  • "The Corn Crake is silent in Africa."I'm surprised no-one has commented about this (so maybe it's just me), but this sentence, given without any explanation, and at the start of the subsection, seems to stick out.
  • indicate the crake call sound file is from a male?
  • "This crake winters mainly in Africa" Subject of "this" not completely unambiguous, as the sentence starts a new paragraph, and the last crake discussed was the African Rail
  • "This is mainly a lowland species, but breeds up to 1,400 m (4,600 ft) altitude" I still think new paragraphs shouldn't start with "This"
  • "In China, flax is also used as for nest sites." not sure if there's an extra word in there (as)
  • "and, also in Scotland in 1999" was it in Scotland and in 1999, or just in Scotland?
  • "The nest, well hidden in the grass, is built in a scrape or hollow in the ground, is made of woven coarse dry grass and other plants, and lined with finer grasses." run-on
  • "In the Netherlands, 33 territories in 1996 increased to at least 500 in 1998." Not sure what this means… there used to be 33 territories where the bird was found but there are now 500?
  • Mrs. Beaton's recipe is too small to read; could it be enlarged? Also, it seems to me like File:Corncrake2.jpg is the best image available (as it shows the whole animal); why not have this in the taxobox. The current lead image might be better in Behaviour ( "…usually being hidden by vegetation")
  • link "Loss of habitat"
  • "where migrating birds are captured in nets set for the Quail with which they often migrate." Not sure if Quail should be decapitalized here?
  • "quarry species" any link for this? I suspect it's a Brit Eng term, perhaps with a legal definition?
  • I note that Marvell's poem fragment is not italicized, while Clare's fragment is.
  • Refs: Seebohm's book was edited after his death (see here), perhaps this should also be in the citation?
  • Theresa Clay is given as the co-author of the 1952 "Fleas Flukes …."; could you check if this is supposed to be Theresa Child?
  • It says Clay on the title page
  • could you check the page number for Mrs. Beaton's book? An online source I found here doesn't match up
  • There's something seriously wrong with the version you have linked. Pages jump from 384 to 805, and recipes from 817 to 1778. The land rail recipe is 1033, as listed in the index, but of course doesn't appear at all Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:40, 14 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • location for Holden and Cleeves 2010?

Comments from Ucucha:

  • You pipe both "rail family" and "crake" to Rallidae in the lead; that's a bit confusing.
  • It seems that the article text never links to the article on the genus Crex.
  • Is there some reason for linking the Azores but not the Faroes?
  • Specify that Barra and Tiree are in Scotland.
  • "The annual adult survival rate is under 30%, although a typical lifespan for an adult may be 5–7 years."—that doesn't make statistical sense

Haven't finished reading yet. Ucucha 03:54, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • No it doesn't make sense. Although it's what the book source says, it's clearly inconsistent with the rock-solid data from the BTO and the Rhys Green paper. Rephrased as "some individuals may live for 5–7 years."
Thanks for review and comments Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:21, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the fixes. Ucucha 13:58, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support as all comments have been addressed (long ago, in fact). The article still looks good. Ucucha (talk) 19:03, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Philcha:

  • Most bird articles start with Taxonomy, so we can define what we are talking about. Since I want this to end up in a featured topic, I'm reluctant to change the order, although I agree with with making it more readable. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:59, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Much of it is basic stuff - common names, who named it, relatives etc. But more importantly, many many bird and other FAs have taxonomy as section number 1 - this allows "description" to be section number 2 and have images in that section not abut the taxobox. Hence we'd then have inconsistent formatting across bird FAs. We can examine order of all articles in an RfC.Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:42, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Re location of "Taxonomy", OK (sigh!). --Philcha (talk) 12:54, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd re-structure "Taxonomy" into 2 paras: all the content about the name, including "The binomial name, ... official version is now "Corn Crake""; the affiliations, "The taxonomy of the small crakes is complicated ... are near relatives of the Crex genus." --Philcha (talk) 09:17, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK. --Philcha (talk) 12:54, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Taxonomy": I'd reverse the sentences "The English names refer to this species nesting in dry hay or cereal fields, rather than the marshes used by most rails. The common name was formerly spelt as a single word, "Corncrake", but the official version is now "Corn Crake", so that "The common name was ..." explains ""The English names refer to ...". --Philcha (talk) 09:17, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Description": In "Males weigh 165 g (5.8 oz) on ...", IMO "are generally smaller and lighter" is redundant. If you think the result would be a too short sentence, you could combine it with the previous one. --Philcha (talk) 09:54, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Description": IMO sentence "There are no subspecies; although birds become paler and greyer towards the east of the range, the change is clinal, and there is great individual variation in colour within all populations" is clumsy, including the "semi-comma splice", and "clinal" IMO should be in plain English ("gradually") with w-link to cline; and I'd w-link subspecies, which has significant payload. How about e.g. "While there are no subspecies, all populations show great individual variation in colouring, and the birds gradually become paler and greyer towards the east of the range"? --Philcha (talk) 09:54, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Voice": IMO "As might be expected with this skulking species" may look like editorialism. And IMO "localisation" is ugly. How about e.g. "The call has evolved to make a singing male's location clear, as this species hides in thick vegetation." I suggested linking to sexual selection, as males appear more at risk of predators. I considered the alternative, natural selection, but this seems not quite right. --Philcha (talk) 10:35, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Voice": I'd move "Slight differences in vocalisations mean that individual males can be distinguished by their calls" to just after "... challenge intruding males and attract females", where it would emphasis the advertising function. --Philcha (talk) 10:35, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Voice": Could "Males can be attracted by mechanical imitations of their call. These can be produced by rubbing a piece of wood down a notched stick, or by flicking a credit card against a comb or zip-fastener" be combined? E.g. "To attract males, mechanical imitations of their call can be produced by ..."--Philcha (talk)
  • "Distribution and habitat": I find the structure of this section confusing. How about sub-sections covering: (a) the breeding areas, including areas where populations have vanished or become sparse; (b) the usual winter quarters, including "There are several nineteenth-century records, .. between December and February"; (c) migration routes and vagrants; (d) habitats, which seem to be similar in both hemispheres - assuming I understand all this. --Philcha (talk) 13:43, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The large-scale structure is better, thanks. I've comments about individual paras, see below. --Philcha (talk) 15:31, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Distribution and habitat": I find the structure of "The Corn Crake breeds from Britain and Ireland ... misidentification of the eggs of the African Rail" confusing (unless I've losing it). --Philcha (talk) 15:31, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Distribution and habitat": What does "former" in "with a former natural range mainly between 41°N and 62°N" mean? Looks like you or the sources have crammed a quart into a pint pot. --Philcha (talk) 15:31, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Distribution and habitat": Can "There is also a sizable population in western China.[21] It nests only rarely in northern Spain and in Turkey" be combined? --Philcha (talk) 15:31, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Distribution and habitat": Should "old claims of breeding in South Africa are incorrect, and result from misidentification of the eggs of the African Rail" be a separate sentence? --Philcha (talk) 15:31, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Distribution and habitat": In "Its status in Africa is not well known, but most of the South African population of about 2,000 birds occurs in KwaZulu-Natal and the former Transvaal Province", the word "status" is hard to interpret. How about e.g. "Most of the South African population of about 2,000 birds occurs in KwaZulu-Natal and the former Transvaal Province, and numbers elsewhere in Africa are uncertain." --Philcha (talk) 15:31, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Distribution and habitat": In "When breeding in Eurasia, the Corn Crake is a bird of open habitats, which would originally have included river meadows", the word "open" may be ambiguous. How about e.g. "When breeding in Eurasia, the Corn Crake's habitats would originally have included river meadows ...". --Philcha (talk) 16:02, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Distribution and habitat": How about "On migration, in addition to the expected habitats, the Corn Crake may also occur in wheatfields and at around golf courses". --Philcha (talk) 16:02, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • You still have "in golf courses" - is there a reason for "in". I suggested "around" as I couldn't imagine the birds feeding in putting greens or bunkers or even the fairway - but I could be wrong. PS I've w-linked golf courses. --Philcha (talk) 09:08, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done, but avoided repetition by saying "poultry feed"
  • "Behaviour": I'd move "If flushed by a dog, ... crouch on landing" and "If disturbed in the open, ... watch the intruder" to just before "When captured it may feign death, ..." so all avoidance of threats are one package. --Philcha (talk) 17:23, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Breeding": I'm uncertain about the sequence of events in para 1: "A male will challenge an intruder ...pecking, and sometimes kicking" (controlling territory); courtship display; copulate; "The female may be offered food by the male during courtship" (i.e. before copulation?); "the male always built the nest" (when in sequence?) --Philcha (talk) 18:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Breeding": "The nest is typically in grassland, ... the later-developing grasses further up a hill" looks OK, but then "The nest, built in a scrape or hollow in the ground ..." looks slightly contradictory. --Philcha (talk) 18:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would it better to re-structure these sentences, e.g.: first nest in a scrape among grassland, etc.; 2nd nest higher from the ground, as the grass is then longer. This is a quite tentative suggestion, as each of the sources seems to give only some pieces of the jigsaw puzzle. But if it is possible, it would avoid contradiction. --Philcha (talk) 09:08, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I tried in the original text to convey that the nest was still on the ground "higher altitude than the first... later-developing grasses further up a hill" I've obviously failed, but I can't see how to make it clearer Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:02, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Breeding": "Incubation is by the female only" (2nd para) but "(male) moving on when laying is almost complete" (1st para). As "The eggs hatch together after 19–20 days", how does the female avoid starvation? --Philcha (talk) 18:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many birds, like pheasants and other game birds and rails, have little or no involvement in rearing the brood after copulation. Except in very cold or wet weather, the female comes off the eggs at intervals to feed herself. It's probably not possible to source this for individual species because it's normal behaviour Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:35, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Breeding": Should "Nest success in undisturbed sites is high ... with lower survival in large broods" be separate para, as it's topic is mortality rates and causes? --Philcha (talk) 18:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Breeding": Should "The annual adult survival rate is under 30%, although some individuals may live for 5–7 years" follow "The number of live chicks hatched ..."? --Philcha (talk) 18:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Feeding": Would it be good to say that "The Corn Crake is omnivorous ... including grass seed and cereal grain" applies to the breeding season and / or in the northern hemisphere. --Philcha (talk) 18:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Removed dead Rothschild and ABC urls, these are real publications, so a weblink is a bonus anyway. Removed non-essential Arkive EL. I can't see any web-only refs without an access date, and web versions of real publications don't need them. Have I missed something? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:11, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from J Milburn Intended to get to reviewing this one, but forgot about it, sorry!

  • "Crex pratensis" Do you have a citation for that name?
  • I was meaning specifically in the taxobox- it just looks a little lonely without it. J Milburn (talk) 12:04, 12 August 2011 (UTC
  • I think File:Crex crex00.jpg would be a great addition to the description section, but I see why you've chosen the current lead image (despite the fact it could be said to not be the most useful photo). If you want to have something in the culture section, you could use Bewick's picture (or, at least, the one used in his book)- I note he also includes a different Latin name, and has a long discussion, which may offer some interesting tidbits.
  • Some more refs would be helpful in "breeding"- first and third paras give the appearance of being unsourced.
  • "Upon Appleton House" - Poem titles should be in speech marks, not italics.
  • In the "names" section, some of the names are not capitalised (which I gather is usual for bird names) and some are in quote marks, some not.

I've not read every word, but it's looking great. It's great to have the poetry- that really adds something. J Milburn (talk) 21:21, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Kaldari:

  • The text should probably be cropped or removed from the image of the egg.
  • The images need alt tags.

Lead looks good according to Cryptic C62 · Talk:

  • Do we have any pictures of this critter that don't have twenty scrillion blades of grass in the way of the shot? The infobox image hardly conveys any useful information about this bird.
  • "It is a medium-sized crake with ... chestnut on the wings" This phrasing just seems weird to me. I would prefer "It is a medium-sized crake with ... chestnut-colored wings".
  • "There are no subspecies, although birds become slightly paler and greyer towards the east of the breeding range." Some minor problems with the wording here. "birds" implies that this statement is true of all bird species in the breeding range, not just corn crakes. "become" implies that the coloration of an individual bird will change as it flies east across the breeding range. Here's one possible alternative: "There are no subspecies, although individuals born towards the east of the breeding range tend to be slightly paler than their western counterparts."
  • "rufous-blotched cream-coloured eggs" This is literally the funniest thing I have ever read on Wikipedia. Are you telling me that "rufous" is a real color?! (I've linked it.)
  • "This crake is in steep decline across much of its former breeding range because modern farming practices mean that nests and birds are destroyed by mowing or harvesting before breeding is finished." This phrasing can be made much tighter: "This crake is in steep decline across much of its former breeding range because modern farming practices often destroy nests before breeding is finished."
  • "Despite its skulking nature" What does this mean? I can't tell if "skulking" is a jargon word or just an unusually illustrative verb.
  • I am happy to see that the lead contains information from each of the article's main sections.

That's all from me. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 00:25, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I would have liked to have read more about the campylobacter problem, but that's because sadly I am more interested in bacteria than birds :-) Thanks for an engaging contribution. Graham Colm (talk) 15:33, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There's a double image in the "Status" section which is not ... ???? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:20, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

hmmm, after manually loading the image, now it's there (in my cache), so I don't know what caused that problem ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:23, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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