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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:32, 2 December 2009 [1].

Cato June

[edit]
Nominator(s): TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:58, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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I am nominating this for featured article because. This is a very complete and detailed biographical account and it is worthy of consideration for FA.TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:58, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Technical comments

--an odd name 23:38, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm ready to support based on everything else but experienced this as well. Connection times out on the tool so I started going through by hand and received several "Headline cannot be found" errors. Some of these were sources I remember looking at so I hit reload and it popped up just fine. It looks like an error on their end but I am not sure. Has anyone experienced something like this? I'm under the impression that we don't need to use only online sources but since they appear to work most of the time it is nice to have them.Cptnono (talk) 11:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: I have read through the article as the GA reviewer, and have also read through most of the references to make sure that they matched up with the text of the article. There is great detail, needless to say, in the article, and I do think this represents Wikipedia's best work. Wizardman 20:46, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - All images check out. Awadewit (talk) 03:07, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support More comments Everything below has been addressed. This is a thorough and complete treatment of the subject. Nice work. Cptnono (talk) 23:47, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good job on getting the infobox perfect per the template's parameters. I am impressed that you were able to provide such in depth info from his youth. Nice workCptnono (talk) 01:45, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I do a lot of U of Michigan and Chicago area athletes and have trolled through a lot of newspaper archives to do so. For most guys who went to high school in the last ten or twenty years this kind of detail is easy to find with the source I use. I tend to do athletes off the beaten path. I have not taken on athletes that are surefire HOF or anything where reviewing all their newspaper articles would be impossible. Since I do athletes where you can read every newspaper article, starting with the first one I can find is pretty easy. For Evan Turner, I was even able to find a youth league source and for Tate Forcier, I found stuff from his midget days. I am still looking for someone who wants to help me overhaul Rob Pelinka. If you want to do a co-nom, I would love some help overhauling his article.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:59, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The amount of papers you go through is apparent with all of the facts you have provided. It is a thorough and complete treatment of the subject. I made a second pass through and saw need for some minor clean up. Consider the notes below and make any needed corrections. I expect that I will be popping in later tonight or tomorrow to support this nomination. The other article looks like fun so I will check it out, too.

Cptnono (talk) 07:21, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sourcing comments addressed —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 01:38, 26 November 2009 (UTC) - Ealdgyth hasn't commented on this FAC, so I'll help her out :-)[reply]
    • Current ref 118 ("Bettis, Jerome and Gene Wojciechowski (September 2007). The Bus: My Life in and out of a Helmet. Doubleday. ISBN 978-0-385-52061-4. Retrieved 2009-07-26.") needs a page number for where it appears in the book. The style also must be consistent with the other citations, ie something like this: Bettis, Jerome; Wojciechowski, Gene (2007-09). The Bus: My Life in and out of a Helmet. Doubleday. ISBN 978-0-385-52061-4.
    • Current ref 210 ("Cato June". buccaneers.com. Retrieved 2009-08-10.") needs full publishing information, etc. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 18:31, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why are the two images so tiny? Please see MoS on images for how to upsize them. I'd be looking at 250px for that kind of detail.
    • They were set for defualt sizing for each user's preferences. However, I will switch the action photo to 250 px. I am not so sure that the image of him autographing really needs to be resized. If you would prefer that one resized as well, I will accommodate that wish.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:22, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's very heavily linked throughout, especially at the top. I'd audit the links and remove anything not absolutely necessary ... like "free agent", "college football", "Washington D.C." (where's that? and a moment later, "District of Columbia" is linked ... very similar), "California" (who would click on that link?), "class president". And really, I think you could drop the four links here: "high school football, basketball, track and field and baseball". There are plenty of valuable links already. Tony (talk) 13:53, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – After a prose review/cleanup, I'm confident that this is OK on 1a grounds. Sourcing also appears fine; I scanned through all of them and there are none that I would question. Technical stuff has checked out already and photos are fine, and I can't argue that this isn't comprehensive. All in all, FA criteria all appear to be met. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:24, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Much of this —I am sorry to say—is completely unintelligible to me and I suspect other readers who are not fans or know little to nothing about the sport because we live outside the US. OK, I expect to become lost with regard to the esoteric aspects of the game, but can we at least make the Lead a little more accessible? This for example, " A Pro Bowl selection in 2006, June earned a Super Bowl ring with the Colts in Super Bowl XLI, as the team's leading tackler for the season" is gibberish to me. What on earth does this mean? Does it mean, "following a selection", I can understand Russian better than this. I am resigned to become completely lost in the Body of the article, but at least make an effort to make the Lead more understandable. He sounds like a great guy, but I would not be able to tell anyone in the UK why after reading this. Please—because clearly you are passionate—you have to say, at least in the Lead, why the subject warrants a Wikipedia Featured Article. PS don't shoot the Brits . Graham Colm Talk 21:32, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At first, I couldn't understand Graham's confusion (speaking US football), but upon closer examination, I see the problems. He didn't earn a Super Bowl ring as the team's leading tackler; he earned it because his team won the Super Bowl that year. And he may have gotten the Pro Bowl selection because he was the leading tackler, but we aren't told that. In fact, we aren't even told what year Super Bowl XLI was, so we don't know if these events are related at all. The sentence is more than a jargon issue; it mixes unrelated thoughts. This suggests the entire text needs to be gone through by a non-US football person for clarity. Also, the lead says he is "currently" a free agent, which breaches WP:MOSDATE#Precise language and should have a year. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:59, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am just landing from a Thanksgiving (United States) trip. I will have to take a closer look at this later tonight. However, the sentence seems to be fairly grammatical although jargony. Here is my take on the complaint. I believe the grammatical construction of "A Pro Bowl selection in 2006, June" is that of an appositive. I.E., the sentence "June was a Pro Bowl selection in 2006." is being reconstructed so that the object modifies the subject of another sentence ("June earned a Super Bowl ring with the Colts in Super Bowl XLI, as the team's leading tackler for the season"). I will look more closely at the rest later tonight.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:10, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. I restructured the beginning of the sentence to eliminate a preposition, but need to examine the end of the sentence.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:22, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If I were to distill Cato June's notability down to any two sentences in the article it would be the two you two have derided. I.E., "Cato Nnamdi June (born November 18, 1979 in Riverside, California, United States) is an American football linebacker who is currently a free agent. . .A 2006 Pro Bowl selection, June earned a Super Bowl ring with the Colts in Super Bowl XLI, as the team's leading tackler for the season." essentially tells you everything you need to know about who he is to understand his importance. Any American sports fan immediately knows his exact notability with these two sentences. The first sentence says he is a currently-active athlete who is unaffiliated with any team. The second sentence describes his two most important points of notability, which are that he is a former Pro Bowler and a player who led a Super Bowl Champion in tackles for a season. In terms of establishing his notability it is not relevant whether he did these in the same year, but I will examine rewriting for clarity. Give me a few minutes.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:38, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This sentence does not violate WP:MOSDATE#Precise language because National Football League player pages are updated very quickly for team affiliation. As soon as he signs with another team, his team affiliation will reflect as much.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:45, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am going to rework "as the team's leading tackler for the season", which is malplaced to modify Super Bowl XLI.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:49, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(copied from User talk page) GrahamColm, I have read your comments on Cato June. You have essentially asked me to explain why he is sufficiently WP:N to be a deserving subject of a WP:FA. Although I do not believe any page that is sufficiently WP:N to be on WP, needs further notability to be deserving of a FA, the problem here lies with you not understanding the subject. A person who does not understand the significance of being a Pro Bowler or a Super Bowl champion's leading tackler should seriously consider whether they even voice a deciding opinion on the matter. I would not voice an opinion on a singer if I did not understand the meaning of platinum albums and grammy awards, for example.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:04, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I see some changes, but there are still problems. (TTT, please do not badger opposers as you did above; the article has to be understandable to everyone. GrahamColm may not know US football, but I do, and I can't get past the first paragraph.)
  • Cato Nnamdi June (born November 18, 1979 in Riverside, California, United States) is an American football linebacker who is currently a free agent. ... A 2006 Pro Bowl selection, June earned a Super Bowl ring the following season with the Colts in Super Bowl XLI. During the Super Bowl championship season, June was the Colts' leading tackler.
This is better, but we still need an as of date on the free agency, and "earned a Super Bowl ring" is unnecessary jargon; you need to tell the audience that means his team won the Super Bowl. This is the first paragraph only; I'm concerned the entire article needs a thorough look. Strangely, although the as of date is missing from the lead, the reader is entertained with every single irrelevant date in his college football career (see WP:PROSELINE, and why is the college career of a Pro Bowler discussed in date-by-date, game-by-game detail?). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:42, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As of date, not necessary. I can almost guarantee, if a team signs a Pro Bowl linebacker his team affiliation will be changed within 24 hours. Currently, is thus all that is necessary. This is not like the college guys I usually write about that no one else follows. This is the NFL.
Badgering was not intentional. I wrote my response in parts as I thought about issues. I apologize if this is considered badgering.
College career, mentions all notable highlights. In a typical 13 game season this means mentioning about three or four games. It is not game-by-game. It is a highlight account. Same for pro career. It only mentions a few games a year that help define his career. I think I only included games that helped the reader develop an understanding of his career history. I would welcome some detailed copyedit assistance with this however. The article has been to WP:PR, but I am willing to make a return visit there.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:44, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - I've read one section of this article and I'm not very impressed by it. The article is quite tremendous for a BLP on a relatively obscure football player, and overall I have the feeling that it's way too detailed and presents hundreds of random factoids with no organization. For example, in the Personal section, we have three sentences about the subject's tattoos when they don't really deserve even a mention. In the third paragraph: In college, June and Hobson were roommates. They were known for having sessions of Madden NFL 2003 for PlayStation 2 in an apartment known as "The Stadium", where competition among football team members often occurred. - How is this a notable aspect of June's biography? The fourth paragraph seems to be largely non-notable fluff as well. I glanced through the rest of the article, but was intimidated by the screens upon screens of unbroken, thick, jargon-filled prose that I can't read at all. Finally, there are 227 references, of which all are newspaper entries, which further confirms my suspicion that this article lacks sustenance from major secondary sources. Sorry, but I don't feel this is an example of our best yet. –Juliancolton | Talk 04:22, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • TTT, sorry, if "free agent" is used in a specialist sense here, a link is appropriate. I should have checked out the target, and have just done so. The other issue is that the reader shouldn't have to check out the link target to have a basic understanding of the meaning of the text here, so why not add within commas (or parentheses) on the spot, "(eligible to sign with another franchise)"? I haven't looked at the sentence, too busy in RL for another 48 hours. Then I'm FREEEEE. Tony (talk) 06:04, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have seen free agent used like this in at least one hundred WP bios without any explanation beyond the link. Although your suggestion seems unusual, I have incorporated it. This article is probably 48 hours away from failing FA, so I am guessing you will not be able to elaborate on your thoughts in time for me to get your insights to improve its content.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:51, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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