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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 23:29, 30 December 2015 [1].

Bristol

[edit]
Nominator(s): — Rod talk 07:53, 15 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Bristol is the largest city in south west England. It has over 1,000 years of history and has become a major centre for trade, business and culture - all of which are reflected in the article. Since its creation in 2002 the article has received over 4,000 edits, four peer reviews and a recent copy edit. The previous nomination (in August 2015) which was archived a few weeks ago, included a lot of discussion about whether a specific image could be included. The issue was resolved however there were few other comments on whether the article meets the criteria.— Rod talk 07:53, 15 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Images are now appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:25, 17 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Reassessing after changes...
  • Quick comments:
  • What happened to the 19th century in the history headings? A couple of mentions in "17th and 18th centuries", but really not much.
  • "Competition from Liverpool (beginning around 1760)..." - wasn't it that by then Bristol Docks simply couldn't handle the larger ships being built? Worth saying. Avonmouth eventually had the same problem, but was able to solve it - unlike Liverpool.
  • The sport section seems pretty long, and the architecture one rather short, and not very informative; eg the cautious assertion that: "Buildings from most architectural periods of the United Kingdom can be seen in the city", which is just about true, but not very helpful. It's more true if you mean post-1707 architectural periods, but I suspect you don't - use English. Fully 1/3 of the Grade I listed buildings are in Portland Square, Bristol and Blaise Hamlet, so why not mention them? Bristol's surviving significant architecture pretty much all comes from after 1700, except for the Cathedral, and St Mary Redcliffe, which is outstanding and well-known, & worth mentioning. What about Clifton?
  • "Outside the city centre are several Tudor and later mansions built for wealthy merchants".[1] is not covered by the reference, which just talks about one, though certainly true. In fact Bristol has I think no reasonably intact Tudor houses, so it may not be good to raise expectations.

References

  1. ^ Historic England. "Details from listed building database ({{{num}}})". National Heritage List for England. Retrieved 27 August 2015.
  • Thanks for your comments. I have attempted to address these by adding a 19th century section to the history and expanding the architecture section - incporating the other issues identified along the way. Could you take another loom and see whether you think these are appropriate?— Rod talk 12:55, 18 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Near Support (just waiting to see if there are other comments as much of it is out of my range) Ok, All the above dealt with, though the long lists of unique new references (mostly Historic England) should be rolled up into combined ones to avoid unsightly taxi ranks of citation numbers. Johnbod (talk) 17:30, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Strong support - Well-written article. Iggy488 (talk) 11:05, 18 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your support.— Rod talk 12:55, 18 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - I may not have time to fully appraise the article, but am opposing based on the Arts subsection which I did review. The subsection is a collection of unconnected facts with no logic governing its flow. The lead sentence is "Bristol was a finalist for the 2008 European Capital of Culture, with the title awarded to Liverpool." How is that the most important take-away from Bristolian culture? Why is See No Evil then mentioned next? Is a street art festival that began in 2011 and seemingly ended by 2013 even notable enough for this article? If it is, why not place it with the bit on Banksy and other artists? Why are the capacities for different theatres listed in brackets, yet capacities for concert halls not? I did not expect such a disconnected passage to make it to FAC. - hahnchen 23:18, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for your comment. I have rearranged some of the material in the section. Could you take another look and see whether you feel this is an improvement?— Rod talk 16:54, 24 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Apart from what Hahnchen said, there's also the problem that Arts is overloaded with names. The point of the section is to give a sense of the city's arts scene, not to list every last actor, comedian, band, museum etc. The worst offender is the last para, which is almost entirely a sea of blue:

Comedians from the city include Justin Lee Collins,[1] Lee Evans[2] Russell Howard[3] and writer-comedian Stephen Merchant.[4] University of Bristol graduates include illusionist Derren Brown,[5] satirist Chris Morris,[6] Simon Pegg,[7] Nick Frost of Spaced, Shaun of the Dead and Hot Fuzz,[8] Matt Lucas[9] and David Walliams[9] from Little Britain.[9] Cary Grant,[10] Dolly Read, Ralph Bates and Norman Eshley were born in Bristol, and Peter O'Toole, Kenneth Cope, Patrick Stewart, Jane Lapotaire, Pete Postlethwaite, Jeremy Irons, Greta Scacchi, Miranda Richardson, Helen Baxendale, Daniel Day-Lewis and Gene Wilder attended the Bristol Old Vic Theatre School[11] (founded by Laurence Olivier). John Cleese attended Clifton College,[12] Hugo Weaving studied at Queen Elizabeth's Hospital School[13] and David Prowse (Darth Vader in Star Wars) attended Bristol Grammar School.[14]

Other Culture sub-sections are guilty of this too, with long lists of names of newspapers and radio stations. The citing is lop-sided; on the one hand over-referenced ("[234][235][236][237][238][239][240][241][242]", which also severely hampers readability), while at the other end, the entire second half of Sports is uncited. A quick glance through the References suggests that using scholarly-books sources (instead of exclusively web-based ones) might make for a more balanced section.—indopug (talk) 10:51, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Morris, Sophie (11 December 2006). "Justin Lee Collins: My Life in Media". The Independent. London. Archived from the original on 1 July 2015. Retrieved 7 March 2009.
  2. ^ "Lee Evans Biography (1964–)". Film Reference. Retrieved 7 March 2009.
  3. ^ Cavendish, Dominic (1 March 2008). "Russell Howard: Russell who is not a brand". The Daily Telegraph. London: TMG. ISSN 0307-1235. OCLC 49632006. Retrieved 21 July 2011.
  4. ^ Ellen, Barbara (5 November 2006). "Barbara Ellen meets the 6 ft 7in comedy giant Stephen Merchant". The Guardian. London. Retrieved 7 March 2009.
  5. ^ "Derren Brown Info". Derren Brown. Retrieved 7 March 2009.
  6. ^ "Chris Morris Profile". BBC News. Retrieved 7 March 2009.
  7. ^ "Simon Pegg Profile". BBC News. Retrieved 7 March 2009.
  8. ^ Hattenstone, Simon (5 February 2011). "Simon Pegg and Nick Frost: Losers in love". The Guardian. Retrieved 29 March 2014.
  9. ^ a b c Viner, Brian (16 December 2006). "Matt Lucas: Pride and prejudice". London: The Independent. Archived from the original on 1 July 2015. Retrieved 5 May 2014.
  10. ^ Biography for Cary Grant at IMDb
  11. ^ "Past Graduates". Bristol Old Vic Theatre School. Archived from the original on 17 June 2008. Retrieved 20 December 2008.
  12. ^ abcd
  13. ^ Biography for Hugo Weaving at IMDb
  14. ^ Biography for David Prowse at IMDb
Thanks for your comments. I have removed some of the "sea of blue" lists of names from the culture section, however I feel that leaving some of the key individuals and venues allows the reader to follow those up in more detail. I have rearranged (and added references) to the sport section. I have made the long number lists of references into one reference for each site, however this is a function of the ways in which Historic England details each site. If there are specific references you feel are not RS (or any other outstanding issues) I will attempt to address them.— Rod talk 13:05, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)

  • "The most recent city council election was in May 2014.": See WP:DATED.
  • "the fifth highest of any city in the United Kingdom (behind London, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Belfast and Nottingham)": sixth highest?
  • "The 18th- and 19th-century portrait painter Thomas Lawrence, 19th-century architect Francis Greenway (designer of many of Sydney's first buildings). ": ?
  • "Stop motion animation films and commercials (produced by Aardman Animations).": ?
  • " Residential buildings in the Georgian Portland Square[1] and the complex of small cottages around a green at Blaise Hamlet, which was built around 1811 for retired employees of Quaker banker and philanthropist John Scandrett Harford, who owned Blaise Castle House.": ?
  • "Bristol has teams representing all the major national sports. Bristol City and Bristol Rovers are the city's main football clubs. Bristol Rugby (Rugby Union) and Gloucestershire County Cricket Club are also based in the city. Bristol has two Football League clubs Bristol City and Bristol Rovers": ?
  • "south west": Check for consistency on hyphenation.
  • I didn't find any hyphenated but did some written as southwest rather than south west. I have changed these except where they are part of URLs or title of references or publications.— Rod talk 17:06, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • " The unique feature of this accent is the "Bristol (or terminal) l", in which l is appended to words ending in a or o. Whether this is a broad l or a w is a subject of debate,[1] with "area" pronounced "areal" or "areaw". The ending of "Bristol" is another example of the Bristol l. Bristolians pronounce -a and -o at the end of a word as -aw (cinemaw).: Seems to contradict itself, two or three times.
  • Sorry I'm not sure what you mean by this.— Rod talk 17:06, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not sure what you're saying. How common is the "Bristol l"? Is it stigmatised? Do some pronounce l and others pronounce w, or is it a consonant that's hard for non-Bristolians to make out, so that people hear it as different consonants? I haven't yet found a source that calls a final w a "Bristol l". - Dank (push to talk) 21:52, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "service – including": if I'm remembering right, you also use em-dashes. FAC generally requires consistency on this.

Comments ...Arrrr's a big 'un....I'll give Brizzle a read, have a pint of scrumpy and jot some notes below. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:05, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for volunteering to take a look but can I just check was that a comment on the West Country English/Culture of Bristol#Dialect and stigmatisation comment above?— Rod talk 13:13, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I combined these sections as the next two centuries were and it makes for less choppy small sections.
''In 1739 John Wesley founded the first Methodist chapel, the New Room, in Bristol - this sentence just sorta sits there...can we incorporate it somehow?
I've expanded this a little more re the foundations of Methodism in the area.— Rod talk 14:49, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Competition from Liverpool (beginning around 1760) and disruptions of maritime commerce due to war with France (1793) and the abolition of the slave trade (1807) contributed to Bristol's failure... - Any reason why we have "X and X and X" as the three subjects rather than "X, X and X"?
Changed.— Rod talk 14:49, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
the first protested against the renewal of tolls on Bristol Bridge, - reads weirdly - why not just, " the first over the renewal of tolls on Bristol Bridge,"
Changed.— Rod talk 14:49, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In 1901 Bristol's population was about 330,000, and the city grew steadily during the 20th century. - wanna align the subjects...how about, "From a population of about 330,000 in 1901, Bristol grew steadily during the 20th century."
Your wording is better so I have used it.— Rod talk 14:49, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Its docklands were enhanced ..."enhanced??" - you mean "renovated" or "rebuilt/enlarged" or something...
Changed to enlarged.— Rod talk 14:49, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'd put it to you that the "Physical" in Physical geography is redundant and can be removed without compromising meaning.
I've always thought of geography as including climate, population, flora & fauna etc while physical related to rocks etc, but changed.— Rod talk 14:49, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Err, I wouldn't have classified population, flora & fauna and climate is just as physical....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:39, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
By 1867, ships were getting larger and the meanders in the river Avon prevented boats over 300 feet (91 m) from reaching the harbour resulting in the loss of trade. - "the loss of trade"?? "a loss of trade sounds natural to mine own ears..the other...not so much...also it should be rounded to 90 m not 91 I suspect...
Changed to "falling trade" & unit rounded up.— Rod talk 10:24, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
From a population of about 330,000 in 1901, Bristol grew steadily during the 20th century. - yeah so did most cities I suspect - some later numbers would be good to give a clearer picture.
I've added the peak population (in 1971) further detail from each census is available in the demographics section
I think all the docks material might be better all in the one place towards the end of the section.
I'm not quite sure which bit(s) you are referring to here. I've tried to keep the history chronological.— Rod talk 10:24, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That is a dilemma - I meant the 2nd and 3rd sentences of the section with the last para, but I agree this is difficult as a coherent chronology is good. Nevermind. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:08, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • The arrangement of the second and third paragraph of the lead is unsatisfactory, starting with history, then geography and going back to history.
  • I would specify in the lead that Cabot was Venetian, as otherwise the description of Weston as the first Englishman looks odd.
  • "Archaeological finds, including flint tools believed to be 60,000 years old made with the Levallois technique, indicate the presence of Neanderthals in the Shirehampton and St Annes areas of Bristol during the Middle Palaeolithic" I am doubtful about this. According to Pettit & White's history of the British Palaeolithic, the Levallois technique is almost never found is 60,000 year old deposits. There is a similar comment in the report by Bates and Wentian-Smith you cite (unpaginated) "Levalloisian technology first appears in England early in the Middle Palaeolithic, probably late in MIS 8 circa 250,000 BP although there may be some earlier manifestations, and does not appear to have been used at the few boutcoupé sites that are dated to after the peak last interglacial (MIS 5e,circa 125,000 BP). Therefore the Levalloisian evidence in the Bristol region probably reflects early Neanderthal occupation in the period MIS 8 to MIS 6. No bout coupéhandaxe finds are known from the region, but the finds from Wales (Coygan Cave), Wiltshire (Fisherton), Somerset (Cheddon Fitzpaine, Pitminster and West Quantoxhead) and Dorset (Bournemouth and Sherbourne) suggest that there was a late Neanderthal population in southwestern England in the later Devensian." The list of late Neanderthal sites does not include the Bristol ones, which may date to the earlier Neanderthal occupation c.180,000 years ago, contrary to the Bristol Council page. If you are going to cover the Palaeolithic, I think you need to delete the council page as not an RS and check the Bates et al paper in detail.
  • I would appreciate further guidance/expertise here. The city council page, which you suggest removing as non-RS is based on the Bates et al paper which they commissioned and does say "There is a predominance of handaxes in the collections, but flake-tool and Levallois technology are present where more extensive collections exist from certain locations, particularly Shirehampton." which I think supports the claim in the article.— Rod talk 21:39, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • This quote does not give a date. The paper also says "Palaeolithic remains are present in Terrace 2 in the Shirehampton stretch, and in Terrace 1 in the Upper Avon, Shirehampton and Severn stretches. Due to the abovementioned problems, we presently have little clear idea of how old these terrace deposits are however, it is likely that they date to the later parts of the Middle Pleistocene". The Middle Pleistocene is 781-126,000 year ago. Similarly the passage I quoted above dates the Bristol occupation as MIS 8 to 6, which is around 300-125,000 years ago. The 60,000 years ago on the Bristol Council page is an error. I suggest changing 60,000 to 300-126,000 and deleting the Bristol Council ref. (It should really be 300-180,000 as there were no Neanderthals in Britain between 180,000 and 60,000 years ago.) Dudley Miles (talk) 22:55, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "capable of resisting an invasion sent from Ireland by Harold Godwinson's sons". According to Stenton's Anglo-Saxon England, it was a raiding party led by three illegitimate sons of Harold.
  • I do not (on checking sources) suggest the word illegitimate - there seems to be some dispute about this. However "capable of resisting an invasion" is different from fighting off a raiding party, which did not necessarily depend on the town's defensive capacity. I would suggest "and in 1067 the townsmen beat off a raiding party from Ireland led by three sons of Harold Godwinson". This is based on Stenton's Anglo-Saxon England, 3rd ed 1971, p. 600. Dudley Miles (talk) 22:55, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "By the 14th century Bristol, York and Norwich were England's three largest medieval towns after London, but one-third to one-half the population died in the Black Death of 1348–49.[30] This checked population growth, and Bristol's population remained between 10,000 and 12,000 for most of the 15th and 16th centuries" I do not see why there is a "but" here. Presumably all three towns suffered similarly. Also it would be helpful to give a population estimate before the Black Death.
  • "including Robert Sturmy's (1457–58) unsuccessful attempt to break up the Italian monopoly of Eastern Mediterranean trade.[" I would leave out the word "up".
  • "A 1499 voyage, led by merchant William Weston of Bristol, was the first English-led expedition to North America.[" Perhaps "the first expedition commanded by an Englishman".
  • "During the 16th century, Bristol merchants concentrated on developing trade with Spain and its American colonies" Did not Spain forbid direct trade between England and the Spanish colonies? If so, I think you need to say so.
  • "the town incorporated neighbouring suburbs, becoming a county in 1373.[" Is anything more known about this? So far as I know it is the only town outside London to become a county.
  • Myers agrees with you that "Bristol was the first provincial town to be given this status" with a charter saying:

We have conceded to our beloved burgesses of our town of Bristol and to their heirs and successors in perpetuity that the town of Bristol with its suburbs and precincts shall henceforth be separate from the counties of Gloucester and Somerset and be in all things exempt both by land and by sea, and that it should be a county by itself, to be called the county of Bristol in perpetuity, and that the burgesses and their heirs and successors should have in perpetuity within the town of Bristol and its suburbs and precincts certain liberties and exemptions and enjoy them fully and use them as is more fully contained in the said charter.Myers, A. R. (1996). Douglas, David C. (ed.). English Historical Documents 1327–1485. Vol. IV (2 ed.). London and New York: Routledge. p. 560. ISBN 978-0-415-14369-1. Retrieved 6 December 2009.

What do you think should be added from this (which is covered on History of local government in Bristol & full text here)?— Rod talk 21:09, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I do not disagree with your wording. I just find it fascinating that Bristol was (so far as I know) the only town to become a county before London in 1889, and I would be interested to know why it received that distinction if information is available. Dudley Miles (talk) 22:55, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Renewed growth came with the rise of England's American colonies in the 17th century" This implies a previous slowdown, which you have not covered.
  • "Some household slaves eventually purchased their freedom in England." However, the Somersett Case of 1772 outlawed slavery in England.
  • "partially as a backlash to the symmetry of Palladianism" "against the symmetry"?
  • "As air travel grew in the first half of the century, aircraft manufacturers built new factories" Why "new"? Are you saying that manufacture migrated to Bristol from elsewhere. If so, I would clarify.
Finishing comments
  • "At 4 June 2009 council elections the Liberal Democrats gained four seats and, for the first time, overall control of the city council." This is dated. According to Politics of Bristol the Lib Dems are now down to the fourth largest party.
  • The details about Concorde seem excessive.
  • "The round piers predate the hospital, and may come from an aisled hall, the earliest remains of domestic architecture in the city, which was then adapted to form the hospital chapel." What round piers and which hospital? This needs clarification.
  • "Commercial buildings such as the paired Exchange" What does paired mean here?
  • "Bristol has teams representing all the major national sports." This paragraph is unreferenced.
  • It is just an intro to the sport section with the fact that these clubs are in the city referenced in the subsequent paragraphs. Do you want me to duplicate them here or remove the sentence?— Rod talk 08:42, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The two Football League clubs are Bristol City and Bristol Rovers" This repeats the previous paragraph.
  • Support. A first rate article. However, you might look again at Queen Elizabeth's Hospital. You appear to discuss the hospital, move on to town houses and then go back to the hospital, which is confusing. I would move the piers sentence to before the town houses sentence. You say above that the town houses sentence is about the hospital but it is not clear how. Were they converted to workers' flats for hospital staff and what does the word "then" refer to? Dudley Miles (talk) 10:40, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note' -- I saw a discussion of referencing above (resolved I believe) but have we in fact had the usual source review for formatting and reliability? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:58, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Although various sources have been discussed. I don't think a specific source review has been undertaken.— Rod talk 13:31, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
'Kay, I've requested one at the top of WT:FAC (unless one of reviewers already involved above would like to have a go). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 20:05, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - "Twin Cities" (not a full review)

  • "Bristol was among the first cities to adopt town twinning." should have an immediate source, and needs tweaking. As currently phrased, the statement contradicts Twin towns and sister cities#Europe, which mentions earlier 20th century-twinnings (and yet earlier twinning-like relations between towns back in 836).
  • I've clarified to "after World War II" and added 2 refs - one book & 1 web
  • "first post-war twinning of British and German cities" contradicts the German-language source. The source notes "Als eine der ersten deutschen Städte", loosely translated: "As one of the first", not "As the first". GermanJoe (talk) 13:15, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - all OK (source improved)

  • No dead links - OK.
  • Consistent formatting and sufficient source details - OK.
  • Sources appear reliable and appropriate for a city-related article. Several books are used in addition to online news, local government information and other reliable web sources - OK.
  • www.bristol.org.uk is used for some, albeit relatively common, information (number of tourists, local dialect). The website states "The Bristol.org.uk website is managed by CSE". Could you clarify please for the foreigner's sake :), is that source considered reliable (and who is CSE)? GermanJoe (talk) 14:05, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Their disclaimer is "The content of the Bristol.org.uk website is provided in good faith but we cannot be held responsible for inaccuracies, omissions or visitors' comments." and the articles lack author details ==> it would be better to find alternate sources. The absolute tourist numbers should be available somewhere else. Regarding "dialect": I am not really sure that the second paragraph is needed to begin with. It's very detailed, and Wikipedia articles should focus on the most notable facts in summary-style. Cities sharing some linguistic features with neighboring regions are pretty common - in fact it would be more notable if the city would not share some of those features. GermanJoe (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've replaced the one for visitor numbers with one which supports 7th in list of UK cities and another which supports nine million. 2nd para of dialect removed.— Rod talk 14:50, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for the quick fixes. However, I have removed the absolute number of tourists (for now). We'd really need either a government-related source or an independent reliable source with expertise in tourist statistics. All I found were passing mentions, who probably just repeat the number from a yet unknown reliable source. Of course the number can be re-added anytime, once that source is found. GermanJoe (talk) 15:30, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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