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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 04:55, 3 September 2007.

Bobby Robson

[edit]

This article has undergone extensive expansion with the help of various web sources and Robson's autobiography. It has had an image added to the Infobox courtesy of a very generous Flickr editor changing his licensing agreement upon my request, and has been copyedited by User:Dweller to remove any Ipswich bias I may have inadvertantly added. I put it up for peer review which received the attention of User:Oldelpaso who made a number of excellent suggestions, all of which have been addressed (I hope!). Therefore, I now think that the article meets the criteria of a featured article and look forward to hearing the opinions and suggestions of the community. Thanks for your time. The Rambling Man 10:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment as copyeditor, I think I'm probably ineligible to support or oppose, but I want to point out that this biography has been extensively reworked and should be pretty free of hagiography. TRM has done (another) magnificent job, culminating in his "holy grail" search for a properly licensed photo. As someone who's worked closely with TRM in the past, I can assure any reviewers that specific issues raised here will be responded to, and I urge anyone reading this to review the article and respond here. --Dweller 12:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I had a look around for a source for his ITV work and found this, which suggests he was only a commentator in 2002. I've also found a mention of him commentating at Euro 2004 on the BBC website, which I'll add. Dave101→talk  17:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Kevin McE
  • Support, though not entirely wholeheartedly as it stands.

Its very thorough and well referenced, and has good layout and balance, although it is rather too journalistic in style for my taste in Wikipedia. Is there independent verification that Porto would have been obliged to allow him to speak to an English club? That is the only claim that I can see being queriable, but if there is only Robson's recollection, then it is not being neutrally reported. There is no citation of the comments about Toon fans made prior to Robson's dismissal from St James' Park: were these Shepherd's comments, or something that Robson said?

Expanded the quote section to explain what it was and cite it. The Rambling Man 17:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think I can make additional citation for the contract thing. That would be 100% personal between Robson and the club. Would you rather I remove it or put it in quotes or something else? The Rambling Man 17:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A few copyedit suggestions that you might like to consider, or you might prefer to ignore:

Brackets are a sign of informal, unencyclopaedic style: I would suggest He also made 20 appearances for England, scoring four goals.
We talk of a career spanning years: I don't think we say that it spans clubs: maybe ... his professional playing career spanned nearly 20 years during which he played for just three clubs, Fulham, West Bromwich Albion and Vancouver Royals. (Any data anywhere for his appearances in Vancouver?)
he is International Football Consultant for RoI: any reason for the quotation marks?
"one of the most successful managers in the world": one of the 10 most successful? 30 most successful? 50? 200? No scale to measure, so not a sustainable claim if challenged. How about He achieved considerable success as a manager and then list achievements?
"one of very few": vague language like this grates with me: if the reader knows anything at all about the honours system, they will know it is a rare honour: He was knighted in 2002 for services to football
"Diagnosed a 5th time": were the 4 previous cancers all cured? Did no-one believe the first 4 doctors? This phrase seems strange and invites questions. Although it is dealt with in the body of the article, I think there could be a clearer phrasing here: He has, since 1991, had recurrent medical problems with cancer, and in May 2007 revealed that he had cancerous nodules in his lungs: he vowed ...
Newcastle surely made no appreciable, not appreciative, attempt to sign him. If Robson made the mistake in his book and it is a quotation, it needs a (sic).
If his club career included time in Vancouver, then it is not an exclusively domestic playing career (I dislike the phrase anyway: makes it sound like they are playing wearing an apron and marigold gloves)
Some comma suggestions: He went on to play 257 games and score 61 goals for West Bromwich Albion but, in August 1962, he returned to Fulham after a disagreement with Albion chairman Jim Gaunt over his salary. The on-going dispute over both minimum and maximum wages in the game, instigated by Robson's team-mate Jimmy Hill and the Professional Footballers' Association, combined with the birth of Robson's second son, prompted Robson to demand a higher salary. Gaunt refused to negotiate Robson's contract, so Robson placed a transfer request and was sold to Fulham for £20,000 in a deal which doubled his salary.
Unrelated clause alert: the sales of Mullery and Marsh had not just signed for Fulham. Not really fair to write off the remaining Fulham players so comprehensively: worse teams have won FA Cups: why should it be assumed at 29 that he could not have made a further transfer to a potential title-challenging team. Soon after Robson joined Fulham, the club sold Alan Mullery and Rodney Marsh, meaning Robson's chances of securing any significant honour there were substantially reduced.
The Vancouver/San Francisco dichotomy needs some explanation.
  • Okay, turns out that at the end of the first NASL season several franchises were in the red and this resulted in the owners of the Golden Gate Gales taking a controlling % of the Vancouver Royals. Puskas had been signed to coach San Francisco prior to this so there were two coaches for one 'team'. Interesting stuff. But no reliable sources as yet... The Rambling Man 08:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The only info I can find is this but it's hardly a reliable source! Oh well... The Rambling Man 11:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I assume that in Jan 68 Fulham offered him a non-playing contract, but the context is his playing career, so this is unclear.
I'm guessing that the preamble to his international career is a summary of the relevant portion of his autobiog. I would argue that, even if BR attributes his England call up to Vic Buckingham, Derek Kevan and Ronnie Allen, that remains an opinion, and as such unencyclopaedic. Going on tour with what amounts to a B team is not a particularly early international experience. Listing some, but not all. of the squad that he was part of sounds like name-dropping. Thus I would drastically reduce the first para of the international section: During his first spell at Fulham, Robson participated in two ambassadorial Football Association tours: to the West Indies in 1955 and to South Africa in 1956. However, it was during his time at West Bromwich Albion that he graduated to the full England squad, with is first call-up in 1956. The idea of Winterbottom having encouraged him to take a Lilleshall course, and Howe being a pal from WBA days, belong at the beginning of his managerial career and his managerial partnership with Howe respectively.
against a Chilean "local parks team": sounds almost bitter: in a pre-tournament friendly against a Chilean club side is neutral, and makes clear that he didn't play in the tournament itself. BR was neither captain nor challenging for the centre-back position, so the Bobby Moore quote seems odd, and the citation at this point of Robson's all-time England XI is not explained.
January 1968 were not struggling with 16 points: In 1959, the then England manager Walter Winterbottom suggested to Robson that he take a coaching course at Lilleshall. Robson made his debut as a manager in January 1968 at his former club Fulham who were struggling with 16 points from 24 games.
I know that the article cited uses the word "billboard", but the article linked, and my understanding of the word, does not include those newspaper headline sheets. Does anyone know the right name for them?
  •  Done Not sure. Robson himself uses that phrase. I've cited the book and rephrased accordingly.
Unrelated clauses again: his reign at Ipswich didn't finish runner up in the league. His reign at Ipswich lasted 13 years, during which time the club twice finished as League runners-up, and made regular appearances in European competitions, ...
"he only brought in 14 players" means he didn't do anything else with those 14 players: he brought in only 14 players
"the call of his country": journalistic, informal language: not encyclopaedic.
The first mention of Don Howe here would seem to me the appropriate time to mention that he was a former teammate from his time at WBA.
1986 World cup: The next two matches are always subsequent to the previous one, so delete "Subsequently": comma needed between Maradona's two goals.
England completed the the six-match qualification for the 1990 World Cup without conceding a goal, and earned one of the six seeded positions in the finals.: avoiding brackets and truism (they can't have lost if they didn't concede a goal).
In the Consultant section, his job title (role, not rôle, I would suggest) for Ireland is again in inverted commas. Although it is an unusual, possible unique, job title, it is a job title and not a saying. Maybe there is a need to describe the role a little (has the FAI ever released what it expects of him?)
"Robson has signed up for various sponsorships and endorsements, including most recently Carlsberg's "Best Pub Side" television commercial." "Signed up" is not encyclopaedic language: it might not be his most recent venture for long; indeed, can we be sure he hasn't done something else, of a lower profile, since that?

There are rather more comments there than I had intended, but that is my fine-toothed comb pedant mode, and something I only bother applying if I think an article is good enough to be worth promoting as an example. Kevin McE 16:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All comments gratefully accepted! Cheers Kevin. The Rambling Man 21:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Heck: I didn't expect you to agree with all of them! I have edited one that you seemed to consent to here, but did not change in the article. Can I draw your attention to the verification/citation issues I mentioned in my first para. Glad to have been of service. Kevin McE 22:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, well I take this all very seriously!! Anyway, yes I will have a look at the other issues you've raised as well. Thanks again. The Rambling Man 16:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Other comments
  • Comment My internet connection died earlier so apologies if you've fixed any of the following in the meantime:
  1. but he returned to the First Division (as Fulham didn't, or at least not in this context)
     Done Caught me. Yes, that's been rephrased accordingly. The Rambling Man 07:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Although Robson had signed professionally, his father insisted he continued to work as an electrician. (continue not continued)
     Done Rouge d struck. The Rambling Man 07:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  3. "Robson made his debut as a manager of his former club Fulham in January 1968" - this doesn't sound quite right/clear but I'm not sure how to rephrase it. update - Ignore this, it looks like you've already fixed it.
  4. ...England team to qualify for the 1986 World Cup in Mexico.
     Done Hmm, some oversight! Now fixed. The Rambling Man 07:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Could 'malignant melanoma' be wikilinked??
     Done Well, melanoma can, malignant doesn't provide anything useful, so I'll link melanoma. The Rambling Man 07:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Mourinho—Robson looks like a double-barrelled surname. Shouldn't it be Mourinho — Robson? I'm not actually sure on the grammar for this so happy to concede to anyone who knows better.
     Done Removed em-dash confusion, semi-colon no avoids the double-barrelled surname query. The Rambling Man 07:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Technically, Ronaldo couldn't have been a €19 million signing as the Euro wasn't introduced until three years later. You could keep it in Euros with a footnote stating what I've just mentioned, or use pounds sterling or pesetas.
     Done All other references point to a $19.5m transfer so I've modified the reference and changed to dollars. The Rambling Man 07:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  8. The point that he was given the freedom of / made freeman of Newcastle is made in two different sections, with a different reference used in either case. Is this intentional?
     Done I think it's okay that the point is made twice, once to assert how important he is to the folk of Newcastle, once as a personal honour, but you're right about the citation, I've used the same one now. The Rambling Man 07:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  9. I've made some more detailed points about his WBA career (he was captain for two seasons, switched positions, and the Gaunt inconsistency thing again) as well as a couple of additional honours he was awarded - please see the article talk page. --Jameboy 22:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll head over there immediately. Thanks for your constructive and extensive comments. The Rambling Man 07:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comment, being a pedant I have a little comment to make. In the title you have the Post-nominal KB linked to Knight Bachelor. Knight Bachelor's have no post-nominals. As such the Sir should be piped to Knight Bachelor and the link to Knighted in the honours section should link to Knight Bachelor as well. Woodym555 15:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Changed to support, well done, that was the only problem that i could find with it. One question though that i don't think should impact on the nom (as it is personal opinion). Why are the citations spaced like that. It expands the text and makes it hard for editors to read. Every FA nom i have seen has the breaks removed, if not the spaces. Woodym555 15:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to: having a reference like this
<ref>{{cite book
| last = Robson
| title = Farewell but Not Goodbye
| pages = p8
}}</ref>
takes up much more space on the page and in the template itself than say this:
<ref>{{cite book |last=Robson |title=Farewell but Not Goodbye |pages=p8}}</ref> I think that an editor who wants to edit the page will find it easier if the citations are not so spaced out, they split up the paragraphs. (In extreme cases the spacing in the citation templates can cause a breaching of the Wikipedia:Template limits, this is by no means an extreme case. See page history of List of English Football League managers by date of appointment for an example.) I also agree with Buc about the consistency. Citation 57 for example has two formats. I think it best to go with the 2007-08-30 one personally, and this does seem to be the most used. Woodym555 16:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for getting back to me. I agree that the spaces shown in my browser between the cite book and the last tags is silly, but I've tried maintaining huge articles where the template is crushed and it's virtually impossible to find what I'm looking for. To be honest, I'm not sure that it's a serious problem, look at infoboxes for example, a lot of the time they have exactly the same structure I apply (which priorities readability) and in some cases the null tags are left in place. At least I've removed those! So, respectively, may I decline from changing the way I do it? I did this for Adam Gilchrist, Ipswich Town F.C. etc and it wasn't a problem then. And I'm not sure if it's even a manual of style issue, so it probably doesn't affect FAC.
However, the consistency of references is a problem, and is due to a number of different editors referencing things at different times. I'll run through and make them consistent. Hope that'll do it! Thanks again for your detailed review! The Rambling Man 16:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I said at the beginning that it is only personal preference and there won't be anything in the MOS because these types of citations are optional anyway. It is all down to the main contributors and if that is how you work, then it is fine by me!!! It is down to individual reviewers and how they edit. I still supported the article, and it was just a comment. I still think this is FA quality. Well done to all. Woodym555 16:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bole's comment
  • Comment I'm not going to Oppose since I only found minor issues, but I did find quite a lot so I'm not going to Support just yet either.

So presumably you'd want me to link Fulham again too? I'll do it. The Rambling Man 07:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it does. I don't understand why you have a problem with something Robson actually said? The Rambling Man 07:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. Not as far as Robson's life is concerned. It's more of a famous moment for Osborne. The Rambling Man 07:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I don't agree with that approach. This is about Robson, not match reports. The Rambling Man 07:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The whole of England was angry. It's not relevant - what is relevant is that he is still angry. The Rambling Man 07:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, those are covered in other articles. This is about Robson, not Platt, Lineker etc. The Rambling Man 07:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

done The Rambling Man 07:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

    • "a young José Mourinho" Who is José Mourinho? I know, but someone eles reading the article might not.

Buc 19:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC) Info added - future Porto and Chelsea manager... The Rambling Man 21:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

His first home game is mentioned. That, in my opinion, is sufficient. The Rambling Man 07:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've called it other activites . The Rambling Man 07:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not a requirement of FAC and no need to repeat information already within the article. The Rambling Man 07:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Buc 15:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment okay, I'd welcome further comments from other editors below this line, thanks! The Rambling Man 17:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
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