Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bleed American/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 16 June 2022 [1].

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Bleed American

Nominator(s): MusicforthePeople (talk) 20:14, 19 May 2022 (UTC); DannyMusicEditor (talk) 20:14, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Hello everyone. This article is about the fourth album from alt rock act Jimmy Eat World, released in mid 2001. After nearly becoming a casualty of the major label system following their third album, the band bounced back with their most commercially successful release to date. It was certified platinum in the US, gold in Canada and silver in the UK. Sometime before this, the album's title was changed to Jimmy Eat World following the 9/11 attacks. Its second single "The Middle" was a top five hit in the US, becoming a staple of the pop punk genre, and is the band's signature song.

While I initially did some expansion to the article a few years ago, DannyMusicEditor (talk · contribs) did further work on it and took this to GA status in 2016. After I did some more expansion in 2021, ahead of the album's 20th anniversary, Danny and I talked about bringing this to FA status. In the interim, we brought Tell All Your Friends to FA earlier this year and have decided to do the same for Bleed American now. MusicforthePeople (talk) 20:14, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Image review

• Don't use fixed px size
• File:Bleedamerican.jpg: source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:31, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: Fixed [2][3] MusicforthePeople (talk) 07:50, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Source review

I remember this album fondly

• There is an over reliance on AllMusic when better sources exist
  • Can you be more specific as to which ones are excessive? Sure, it has a lot, I'll give you that, but are there any you'd most rather be replaced? dannymusiceditor ^oops 16:34, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Most (barring the review/bio, of course) of the AllMusic refs are for the release dates. MusicforthePeople (talk) 18:16, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
    • emo pop can be cited to reviewers instead of the void of all music. Same for clarity's release year. --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 22:00, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
      • Before I do that, what exactly do you mean by "the void of Allmusic"? At least it's not detail just thrown into a sidebar and not just a listing in their portal of artists/releases. dannymusiceditor ^oops 22:43, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
• Why is Jimmy Eat World's news section a high quality reliable source?
• You switch between liner notes and booklet
  • Fixed. MusicforthePeople (talk) 18:16, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
• The booklets for Static Prevails, Clarity, and Dude Ranch don't really support what you are trying to get them to do
  • Why not? Unless you're saying those booklets don't actually credit Trombino, in which case I would be surprised. I do not have them on hand. The Dude Ranch part was one of my ideas - I could see it going if I have to, because I suppose in one light "breakthrough" can be subjective. dannymusiceditor ^oops 16:34, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
    • Yeah, breakthrough release needed to come from a reviewer --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 22:00, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
• Aubin 2000 does not support the text
  • I have questions about punknews to begin with
    • We had this issue on our last FAC, and we took the source to be discussed at RSN. Some concerns and opposes were raised there, but when we answered their concerns, the airwaves went silent and the thread was eventually archived. As far as I was concerned, there was no real need to dig it up three months later - I assume that by no further comment, that the problems had been resolved. dannymusiceditor ^oops 16:34, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
    • Update: That's annoying, you can't even see the date of publication on this source. If you could, it would support the content; we would just have to change it to say it had been recorded by October. dannymusiceditor ^oops 16:45, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
      • Without a date on it, the source isn't supporting things --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 22:00, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
        • Before the site's current design, they used to show the dates in the posts. If you press F12, then CTRL+F, then type datepublished in the search box, the date it was posted shows up. MusicforthePeople (talk) 08:00, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

  Seeing that Ealdgyth dropped her objection, I will let it go Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 22:02, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

• Watch the linking of publications
  • Linked at first occurrence. MusicforthePeople (talk) 18:16, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
    • Danka --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 22:00, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
• Why is Line and Ink a high quality reliable source?
• You sometimes you Harv/SFN templates and sometimes do them by hand
  • Fixed. MusicforthePeople (talk) 18:56, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
    • Danka --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 22:00, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
• You are going to need to sell me on The Gunz Show
  • Mike "Gunz" Gunzelman's show is broadcast on idobi Radio, where he personally interviews the band for the content used on this page. Would you say the band's word is suitable? That's the reason the tweets are in here, too. Of course we'd use a better source if it was out there, but we're not sure there are any. dannymusiceditor ^oops 16:34, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
    • Works for me --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 22:00, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
• Ditto for the tweets
  • Personally, I use WP:ABOUTSELF to craft my judgment on this one. Obviously, if there were better published sources to cover the matter, we would use them, but I do not know of any, and I think the band's works count as being about themselves. Do you think they could be amiss on any of the criteria listed? Let me know, dannymusiceditor ^oops 16:34, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
    • They are the worst source possible. But I will withdraw my objections. --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 22:00, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
• The sleeve refs need to be merged
• Chart history is broken
  • Fixed the above two. MusicforthePeople (talk) 18:16, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
    • Danka --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 22:00, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Spotchecks probably have to be done --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 12:12, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Support on prose from Ippantekina

My comments will mostly be on the prose. Never listened to this band's music, though (pardon my perception) I do know that they were a cultural fixture for emo teens back in the 2000s.

• Template:Infobox album recommends against adding "specialty- or limited-release singles", and I think "A Praise Chorus" belongs to this category because you say it is a "promotional single" in the lead.
• "In March 2002, Bleed American was certified gold by the Recording Industry Association of America, and was certified platinum that August" awkward sentence structure; you can simply state when it was certified platinum and omit the gold certification
• "Capitol initially started to shelve the album" began to shelve would be more direct and simple
• Can you elaborate on what you mean by "a few key radio stations"? Was the track "Lucky Denver Mint" included in the final track list, or what is its significance to the album in any way?
• "they did not even have a stronghold in the United States" plus I prefer the positive to the negative, something like they lacked a stronghold
• "breakaway" break away to make it a verb
• "The tour was ultimately considered a success" by whom?
  • Done all above. MusicforthePeople (talk) 13:43, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

I have read up to the "Recording" section and figure the prose has minor errors that hinder flow. To this extent, I suggest that you request a copy-edit at WP:GOCE. Prose aside, I see the article has several Twitter sources, which I am afraid is a case of WP:PRIMARY; if possible, please find third-party sources. Content-wise, the article seems comprehensive and does not omit any significant relevant information. I will proceed once my comments are addressed and hopefully by that time the prose has received a thorough copy-edit. Cheers, Ippantekina (talk) 10:52, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

In regards to Twitter, Danny has addressed this above. MusicforthePeople (talk) 11:12, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

In regards to the thorough copy-edit, it'll have to be one of us if this FAC is going to proceed, because the backlog at the Guild is much longer than it used to be. It's currently approaching 3 months in queue time. I'm happy to fix anything you give, just let us know. dannymusiceditor ^oops 15:35, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

As much as I detest Twitter as a source, I withdraw my complaints. I do see that the GOCE queue is congested at the moment.. Ippantekina (talk) 03:33, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

• "The material on Bleed American was more accessible and aggressive than its predecessor" you can name that predecessor for clarity.
  • Hilarious that you worded your request that way, because the predecessor is actually titled Clarity.
    • Because the last instance where Clarity is mentioned is a bit far back, naming it directly would be better than calling it "predecessor" (if that makes sense..) Ippantekina (talk) 09:18, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
• "the band called the album Bleed American as it the title-track dealt with" grammar?
• "how small, trivial things in a person's life" one adjective should suffice
• Link bridge
• the Promise Ring (MOS:THEMUSIC)
• What does it mean by "second-wave emo"?
  • Genres that exist for longer than a few years can be broken down by "waves/eras" – in the case of emo, that refers to its mid 1990s underground era. I've added a link in the article. MusicforthePeople (talk) 07:51, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
    • Thank you for the explanation. Ippantekina (talk) 09:18, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
• Inconsistent tenses (" "Your House" details the pain of a break-up, cutting all communication with the person, and was reminiscent of" "It channelled the sound of the Cars, and recalls the quieter songs on Clarity"). I suggest you use the present tense throughout.
• " "Bleed American" was released to radio on June 5, 2001, and released as a single on August 21, 2001" being released to radio is a norm for a single, so I assume the latter release date is for another format (physical/digital)? Ippantekina (talk) 03:33, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Done all the above, except for the second-wave emo point. That is expertise better left to my nomination partner. dannymusiceditor ^oops 04:38, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

• Continuing...
• "Jimmy Eat World embarked on a two-week tour of Germany" in Germany?
• I am curious how you organize the chronology of the tours; "Following two one-off US shows in February 2002 ... In June 2001, ... they played the East Coast shows in July and August 2001"
• "Jimmy Eat World played four southern shows" probably southern United States? we have non-US audience here on Wikipedia so..
  • I changed this to "...four shows in the southern states..." as the first half of the sentence clarifies the country ("After returning to the US...") MusicforthePeople (talk) 10:54, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
• The "Tour" section overall reads like a listicle; while this is inevitable to an extent, I'd like to see varied sentence structures other than "In [time] they toured [in location]" especially in the second paragraph. My proposed solution is to divide paragraphs by category i.e. one paragraph for TV shows, one for supporting tours, and one for headlining tours.
• "generally favourable reviews" American English
• Beware of curly apostrophes (MOS:')
• Some reviews listed in the box are not discussed in prose i.e. NME, USA Today
• "Bleed American was a commercial success, helping the band gain mainstream popularity" unless a source is provided this can fall into WP:OR
• I would separate Certifications into a separate section.
• That concludes my first read-through. Once my comments are addressed I will review the article a second time. In the meantime I would appreciate any and all comments at my current FAC. Cheers, Ippantekina (talk) 09:41, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Done all above. MusicforthePeople (talk) 10:46, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your patience with my review. I support this article for promotion on prose. Hopefully the article receives more reviews and a ref spotcheck review if necessary. Ippantekina (talk) 07:47, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Coordinator comment

More than three weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination attracts further interest over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:06, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:45, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.