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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Graham Beards via FACBot (talk) 09:20, 27 November 2014 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Australian raven

[edit]
Nominator(s): Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:29, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a bird I see most every day..it got a good going-over at GAN and I am feeling pretty happy with it. I reckon any fixes will take less than seven days and promise to fix issues pronto. Have at it....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:29, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Jim

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Just a few nitpicks before I support Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:12, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • blamed of killing lambs—blamed for?
oops, changed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:55, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • the nest a bowl-shaped structure of sticks—missing word "is"
added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:55, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The location that the type specimen was collected is not recorded—missing words "in which"
hmm, no but agree is ungainly. changed to "where" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:55, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • He named this the crow and C. australis (as Corone australis) the raven.—reads strangely, quote marks round names perhaps
rejigged it a bit as is tricky. added quotes Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:55, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • As the climate was cooler and dryer, the aridity of central Australia split them entirely. —"became" rather than "was" if I'm reading this correctly
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:55, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Furthermore, the eastern diverged into nomadic little ravens and, in forested refuges, forest ravens —missing word after "eastern"?
added a noun Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:55, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ornithologist Ian Rowley suggested the western populations may be older in origin as they lack the vigour of the eastern.[5]—How do you measure vigour, and why does it correlate with age of populations. Reads like something from 1870 rather than 1970
I have rejigged it some. Rowley said it - who knows, maybe he was working backwards after noting the western one has affinities with the little/forest raven. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:11, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • galahs and starlings—links to species, and binomials since you have done so for other birds
added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:06, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure of the logic behind binomials for birds and ticks, but not red fox, yabbie or Christmas beetle
oops, oversight. added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:06, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

The base map is File:World map.jpg. I will get a page number for data shortly source for map range added now to image file too. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:03, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Crisco

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The Criscraven

Once upon a noonday dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of animal lore—
I thought of the species, of Vigors and Horsfield, and was rearing
The subject had been "the two subspecies" the sentence before
A shift in subject it was, from the sentence before
Only this and nothing more
Onward I trekked through my page and a half of taxonomical flair
And across Parramatta district did I stumble, then implore
This great name could surely be linked, if you dare
To Electoral district of Parramatta, and its lore
And "Corvus australis Gould to be preoccupied", the lore
Unclear for now, and evermore
Upon this statement I stumbled, of ravens of intermediate features
And wondered, if in western ravens interbreeding did occur
I tripped upon the mulga-eucalypt boundary line, and in tears
I called for information, for data, for more, more, more!
Knowing so little, I can only beg for a redlink or more
So let us see it, I must implore.

To be continued... — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:15, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Electoral
district of Parramatta
is political
Parramatta is
more faithful to the meaning
so I used instead
"the two subspecies"
has been shifted so it sits
more neatly in lead
no information
on hybridization could
I find - so unchanged
an explanation
for Corvus australis I
added as footnote
a redlink added
for mulga-eucalypt line
article to-be

There....six haikus....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:17, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What is it about the end of October? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:41, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
heh...not sure... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:18, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
comments I have read
agree with them all, I do
let me continue
The night now young, I continue on, moving forth 3 cm
Yet the loss of inches that I face ... Despair to the core!
I dig into this animal lore, and still my mind wanders
Questing for a link to Brisbane, a city I admit I adore
Though Canberra, Melbourne, Perth, Sydney, and Adeleide I adore
No standardized linking is something I so deplore
Confusion strikes me, as I read of spiders, caterpillars, and friends
Which of our many-legged fiends are eaten by ravens on the soar
And which, at the beaks of the crying young, meet their ends
And must we again say it is not feet that do their chore
Of feeling and grasping and turning, all the bill's chore
This repeated repetition repeatedly leaves my eyes sore
As the evening grows dark, I must admit that I grow leery
Not wanting to push too hard, should I be shown the door
Dare I say that two sections are too short and bleary
Lead of Crow, trickster of old, but no examples of folklore?
And of the European and immigrant Australian folklore
Are there not films, or legends, or tales of yore?
Quoth the Crisraven
Forever sore — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:59, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think I got them all done
but folkloric references
are non-specific
(damn...can't fit into haiku...problem is "crow/trickster" stories are often general for corvids.....will have another look....
Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:57, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Worry not, oh Cas
Question not specific birds
But specific tales — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:01, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
damn - this is proving hard to find some specific to ravens. We have Crow (Australian Aboriginal mythology) already though....might need to go to library....or something... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:24, 3 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from FunkMonk

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Will add comments as I read along. Feels a bit anticlimactic commenting after the above, like being scheduled to play a concert after Led Zeppelin. FunkMonk (talk) 08:55, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think all bird article should have a photo of how the animal looks in flight (when available, of course). Could only find this for the species here:[2]
added it Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:26, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Potentially interesting free Flickr images (article feels a bit empty): Individual harassing a rainbow lorikeet:[3] Individuals foraging on garbage (with an ibis in background?):[4] Some kind of social activity (caption says two adults with juveniles):[5] Individual with fish head:[6] Individual taking road kill (a Vanellus chick):[7]
hmm, need to think on these. none are as exciting as some others I've seen. I could also take my camera to work and see as ravens are everywhere (as are ibises and silver gulls, makes for some potential interesting pecking order type photos) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:26, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, they're not great as photos, but they do show some interesting behaviour not depicted in the article. The one with the parrot I think is quite interesting, and showing them with garbage would make sense under human relations. FunkMonk (talk) 09:43, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "John Gould noted a single species of corvid in Australia, Corvus australis". Is this a synonym of something? Same with Corone australis. Neither redirect to anything...
I tweaked it to see if it makes it clearer. Essentially he went with precedence using the oldest available name, which was Corvus australis Gmelin 1788 - which was listed as from Tonga but was from Tasmania (note this is actually the forest raven, which was only recognised in the 1960s.) Neither links to anything as neither is a recognised name and there are other links around to forest raven and I didn't want to labour it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:15, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The above mentioned names should probably also be listed under synonyms in the taxobox, though they were preoccupied.
I added now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:12, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "after declaring Corvus australis Gould to be preoccupied" Preoccupied by what species? I see it is in a note, but would be nice to see in the article, by just adding "by the black nunbird".
I de-footnoted it as on reading it again think it flows better Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:58, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any reason why marianae was erected, when coronoides was already available as replacement name?
Mathews' egotism? Mathews was a heavy splitter, so has described many subspecies now not recognised - this was a case over oversplitting corvids Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:15, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, could the sentence about australis being preoccupied be moved up to where australis is discussed? Now it seems a bit disjointed.
These can be a real headache. In the past with complex naming situations like this, I have been told it makes most sense if listed chronologically. The final australis ruling was much later Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:58, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • What's the story behind the affinis and difficilis synonyms? Seems like an oversight, when other synonyms are treated in some detail.
Added material on difficilis now.Looking for other. Found initial entry in German.................. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:01, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
for affinis, I can't say anything more than "Christian Ludwig Brehm described Corvus affinis in 1845, later determined to be this species". Shall I add it (or something similar?) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:54, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good enough to me. FunkMonk (talk) 08:56, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
When this is implemented, I'll add my formal support. FunkMonk (talk) 10:43, 3 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
ok done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:52, 3 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although called a raven" Maybe it should be noted that the words raven and crow have little taxonomic meaning? Now readers could be led to believe that the species is somehow "misnamed" as a raven, as it is related to species called "crows", even though it just means a big member of Corvus...
good point...I just removed "although". Will look for a sentence on the interchangeability of crow/raven Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:01, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, the sentence does not explain why it starts with "although". Two other ravens are listed with the crows.
agreed - just removed "although" and rejigged it Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:01, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Rowley noted that the western ravens had features intermediate between Australian and little ravens." A bit unclear, the western ravens are Australian ravens as well, so why is the eastern raven only named as such, and not as "eastern"?
first "western" is ancestral, so left as western, second is western ssp. Rewrote second bit to clarify. I was being a bit sloppy there Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:01, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since so many different "ravens" are mentioned in that paragraph, I think it would be clearer if you added "Australian" after each time eastern or western is mentioned.
enough now? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:01, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do the subspecies have common names?
Sort of/not really. They are generally just known as "Australian raven" everywhere. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:01, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would it be possible to note which subspecies are shown in the included photos?
all are eastern subspecies apart from a single photo from Perth - I did wonder about adding but mused it might look a little repetitive. I thought adding locale would be helpful.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:06, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps the sections about evolution and genetic affinities should have an "evolution" subheading under taxonomy? It's quite a chunk...
Tempted to...done. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:01, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Anything on when corvids entered Australia, and when this species diverged?
Aaah yes, the paper has it :))) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:02, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the feet large and well developed" What does "well developed" mean here?
the claws are described as "powerful" in the source, so maybe "strong" is better...changed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:02, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "while the other four species have" I would add "of Australian corvids" the first time "four other species" are mentioned, for clarity.
added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:03, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Torresian crow is linked to a second time under distribution. Should it be?
de-linked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:04, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The video seems little relevant to the section it is next to.
been scratching my head 'bout that one...is nice to have a video...but the bird isn't doing anything specific.. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:02, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "that was banded and recovered 12 years and 5 months later" Live or dead?
alive! added.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:28, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and so trees taller than surrounding trees are selected." Isn't either and or so redunda
reworded to "tall or emergent trees" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:05, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Lithistman

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While I prefer the form and structure of the "old days", when a reference wasn't breaking up the prose every sentence, I really found this article quite a pleasure. The image placement works very well, the prose is sound, and the content interesting. I love reading featured articles (and, in this case, featured article candidates) on such lesser-known topics. Given all this, and the improvements that have been made to an already well-crafted article based on Jimfbleak's suggestions above, I support making Australian raven a featured article. LHMask me a question 01:15, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

thx/much appreciated :) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:15, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Victoriaearle

[edit]

Support. Nice easy read, clearly explained - well, as clear as crows/ravens can be explained! I have flocks of something come through my backyard in the wintertime and have always wondered whether ravens or crows, but I'm still none the wiser. It's interesting too that the folklore/mythologies about crows/ravens down under seem to be identical to Native American mythologies. Anyway, nice job. Victoria (tk) 19:44, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

thanx - typo catches much appreciated! I suspect yours will be carrion crows. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:13, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Snowmanradio's comments

[edit]
mostly introduction
  • In the introduction; "Scavenging on ... as well as lamb faeces". Needs more explanation for clarity. I recall hearing about hungry ravens eating horse faeces at a time when they lived in towns and villages in England during the winter when food was sparse. For the body of the article, is there anything about what nutrition there is in this sort of animal faeces? Would Australian Ravens birds eat faeces only when other food is in short supply? Snowman (talk) 15:59, 4 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The sources seems to be saying that they eat them pretty readily. It does not elaborate on their nutrition. The birds are omnivorous so I dn't think there are any particular nutrients they are getting. I suspect that a newborn lamb's first faeces might have a higher proportion of blood and contents like that but have not seen anything in the source to corroborate that. I will try and investigate. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:47, 4 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I see. If it applies only to young lambs, then it might be undigested milk (and some protein in sloughed epithelial cells). Same as in humans. I have heard that some dogs in Africa eat (or lick-up) human babies faeces. I presume that the birds will not be able to digest lactose from milk, but it might be worth find out if this is a special case. I guess that, an adult sheep's digestion will be more effective and extract as much nutrition as is possible. Snowman (talk) 21:14, 4 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Aha. I found some info about the faeces and have added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:55, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is more understandable now, as least for the faeces of newborn lambs. Would this imply a lamb up to two or three days old or something like that? Is the faeces of older lambs nutritious? Do ravens eat the faces of a lamb that is a month old? In the case of dogs eating human babies faeces, I think that this can continue for babies up to several months old, as least. Snowman (talk) 10:10, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It means the faeces of very young lambs - I don't think lamb faeces stay treacly for very long at all. I don't think it means more than a few days. Dogs eat all sorts of faeces of all ages so that is not a good comparison. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:12, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it sounds a bit like meconium. Are you describing meconium? Snowman (talk) 17:09, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like. Pity the source doesn't make the link Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:50, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
changed to "strong" - source uses "large and powerful" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:27, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
ok trimmed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:27, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think the timing is not significant enough for the lead - the splitting and lumping of corvids in Australia is complex (not surprising as they are all very similar in appearance!) and the person who named the western subspecies (Mathews) was an extreme splitter, most of whose subspecies are no longer recognised. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:27, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It is more complicated than I first thought and probably best not featured in the introduction. Snowman (talk) 09:59, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
the killing is very rare. This is the original paper. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:27, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I see, my book appears to have over simplified it. Snowman (talk) 09:57, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes - the aritcle does mention it can be difficult. If a farmer finds a dead lamb in a field, it might be impossible to tell if it was weakend before it was attacked and died, or whether the ravens just found a dead one and ate it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:12, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Similar seen in introduction for re-phrasing. Snowman (talk) 19:53, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
other
All corvids are intelligent and as far as I know I have not come across a source that suggests they are more intelligent than other corvids. If the book you are reading has a specific example of their capabilities I think that would be worth adding. Otherwise I have my doubts. If you do think we should add nonetheless where would you put a statement and what would it say? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:47, 4 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The article says that the peoples of ancient Australia noticed that raven was "the Watcher and was wily and unpredictable". This suggests they thought the ravens were intelligent. I would complement this with a comment about the intelligence of ravens in the main description in the "Behaviour section". My book just says that ravens are "resourceful and intelligent", so I would just add that. Snowman (talk) 21:28, 4 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ok if you give me a page number I can add it Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:36, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Intelligence on page 351. Snowman (talk) 02:12, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It is a pity we can't use clips like this really... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:18, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
update - have added a ref which mentions intelligence and innovative foraging Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Its range is also highly correlated with the presence of sheep." Is anything known about its range before the arrival of sheep in Australia? Is there any association with the huge numbers of feral goats and camels in Australia now? Snowman (talk) 15:59, 4 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Rowley (an expert on Australian corvids) doesn't explain but he thinks it was expanding (I think, will double check on this). I just drove from Adelaide to Sydney via Broken Hill and was surprised at how many goats I did see. Goats and camels are spread right across the continent and often in dryer areas where there are no ravens, so no there isn't. The books don't link them either. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:47, 4 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Is the range before sheep a mystery? Snowman (talk) 10:12, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
pretty much - sheep have been around since the start of the colonies here Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Out of interest and for a sense of completion of this topic, is there any association with this raven with kangaroo's including the extinct species of kangaroo or any other Australian mammals. Snowman (talk) 20:33, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not that I have seen or read Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:20, 6 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • About juveniles; "... and sometimes have a pink fleshy gape.[30]". They may have pink gapes, but I think that this is a misunderstanding, because my book says that the bare skin on the sides of the neck and near the beak is pink. Snowman (talk) 16:32, 4 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
which book do you have. HANZAB and rowley are the best sources for getting it right. Gape is inside the mouth. I have not seen a juvenile like that. I see these birds alot and even rescued a juvenile that couldn't fly last year at the end of my street. Maybe a very very little bird but juvenile usually means a 1 year old like this, which I took. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:47, 4 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The book I had been looking at is; Simpson, Ken (1986). Field Guide to the Birds of Australia: a Book of Identification. Illustrated by Trusler, Peter (2nd ed.). Australia: Viking O'Neil: Penguin Books. ISBN 0-670-900729.. I bought it a few weeks ago from a local secondhand book shop. Snowman (talk) 20:51, 4 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The exact words used in the book is; "1st year extensive pink skin on the sides of chin". Perhaps, that does mean gape, but "side of chin" sounds like outside the gape to me. The illustration shows some pink around the gape looking like some pink is outside of the birds mouth. Anyway, you should know what juveniles look like. I have never seen an Australian Raven. Snowman (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Aah well, if you ever come to Australia, they are all over Sydney and very easy to see. They are shyer than magpies, which my mum feeds on her verandah - the ravens seem happy enough outside the dumpsters and garbage bins Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:34, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a juvenile on flickr and it has a pink chin as described in my book. My book says that the pink chin is seen in the first year, so it would not be apparent in the one you photographed, because it was one year old apparently. Surely, the description of the juvenile should include the first-year pink chin. Snowman (talk) 09:54, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, I have seen many ravens and never seen that. must be pretty young. I will check the source again and try to calibrate. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:12, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
update - source checked and info on pink bare skin of birds recently left the nest added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:59, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Australian ravens can kill birds as large as galahs (Eolophus roseicapillus)". It does not actually say that they kill Galahs, but birds as big as a Galah. A Galah is a strong quick bird, agile in the air, and its beak can give a strong bite. I am surprised that a raven can kill a healthy adult Galah, so could this be double checked please. Galahs form big flocks, so I do not know how a raven would isolate a healthy one. Snowman (talk) 16:44, 4 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Source says, "On two occasions a group of C. coronoides was watched attacking young galahs, Cacatua roseicapilla, and one of these attacks ended in hte galah being killed. On one occasiona a coronoides was seen to seize a starling, Sturnus vulgaris, from a flying flock; the prey was grasped in the feet and borne to the ground for dispatch." Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:02, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, a juvenile Galah would be slower and weaker than an adult. Snowman (talk) 02:15, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
added "young" to galah Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:58, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
small pugnacious birds such as willie wagtails and noisy miners readily mob all/any bigger birds, so this is not specific to the raven. Mobbing is pretty common - two years ago I picked up a stunned barn owl off the ground just outside my work after it was mobbed by ravens and pied currawongs (funny coincidence as barn owl is at FAC too) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:34, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It may not be specific to the raven, but it does happen. Article says that ravens eat birds' eggs. I think that it would be reasonable to say that smaller birds mob the raven as they would do any larger bird in defense. I think it would paint a better picture of the ravens going about their daily foraging. Any comments? Snowman (talk) 10:04, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I can't find any mention of this in hte HANZAB source Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:01, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This thread may not have been fruitful. Often, I have no idea what will follow after I find a topic to discuss in a FA candidate review. Snowman (talk) 17:06, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It was worth checking. Sometimes we come up with dead ends Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:50, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
They are - the header above them (Evolution and systematics) is a level 3 subheading of Taxonomy and naming. Funkmonk suggested the subdivision of the section. It is very long otherwise. I thought the material on the subspecies belonged near the material on evloution Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:01, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should the phylogram be headed Australian corvids and not Australasian corvids. The extinct New Zealand crow (Palaeocorax moriorum) and probably others would be included if the phylogram was for all the regional corvids. Snowman (talk) 16:59, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
ok. done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:50, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have just noticed that the Bismarck crow is native to New Britain and not Australia. The phylogram includes the Bismarck crow, so it can not titled "Australian Corvids. The phylogram does not have enough corvids to cover all the Australasian corvids, so the title Australasian corvids is also not suitable. It seems to me that "crow" and "raven" are somewhat random in the genus, so "crow ancestor" and "raven ancestor" on on the phylogram might be confusing. Snowman (talk) 21:46, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is why I had "Australasian corvids" in the beginning as the Torresian crow is also from New Guinea. The Bismarck crow is only recently recognised as a species so is hard to incorporate if not discussed in systematic papers. Most people would assume that "Extant.." is implied in the heading. I don't think enough is known about the extinct NZ crow to consider it, and I would personally not see the need to add "Extant.." to cover it Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:29, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have read a little more about Australasian corvids. Of course, it depends on how Australasia is defined, but lets use the traditional view as expressed on the Wiki page on Australasia is correct. Lets also look at the chart that is in one of the sources; see Figure 2. The source lists 7 species of corvids in Australasia. The article has 6 species of corvid, but spits one that is not split in the source. The species that are missing from the phylogram in the Wiki article are the grey crow (Corvus tristis) and the brown-headed crow (Corvus fuscicapillus), which are both native to the island of New Guinea and are therefore Australasian corvids. There is also the long-billed crow (Corvus validus) from the Northern Moluccas. I am not sure if this range in part of Australasia or not, but it is on the Australasian side of the Wallace Line. In short the phylogram in the article only features some of the Australasian corvids, and I have no idea why some have been missed off. Also, should the explanation in the article of the evolution of the regional corvids include all the Australasian corvids or just some of them? Have I missed something? Snowman (talk) 13:47, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is getting tricky. I have renamed to "Evolution of australian corvids" as it is what it's about. Thus, the fact that Bismarck crow is present does not contradict the article as it is a part of this evolutionary tree even though it does not occur in Australia. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:57, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The text is that bit more difficult to follow now that bird names are lower case. I am not sure if Tasmanian ravens means ravens in Tasmania or the species. Tasmanian ravens are now called forest ravens, so for me this leads to some confusion in the long section and subsection on Taxonomy. Should the article use the name forest raven instead of Tasmanian raven? Snowman (talk) 17:19, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
they both meant forest ravens and are now changed. Tasmanian raven is an alternate common name often used but is confusing as it occurs outside Tasmania Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:52, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "eating rubbish and scraps". Eating food scraps in rubbish? Eating discarded food in rubbish?
changed - "in rubbish" is redundant I just realised as mentioned a few words later Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:34, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No. Eggs often don't hatch or yound birds die etc. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:34, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Something like; "During this time they produce two surviving young each year on average.[40]"? Snowman (talk) 20:04, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:31, 6 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The introduction seems a little bare to me. I would think that either two or three paragraphs would be acceptable here. I suspect that a few more key facts could be added to the introduction, but I am not sure if a longer introduction would be better or not until it is expanded. ? colour of eggs. ? longevity of birds ? black bare skin on neck in adults? flocks of young? Aboriginal culture, more? This may not be an FA criteria based on length alone, but I am a left a little dissatisfied with the introduction, so my subjective impression would make it relevant here. Snowman (talk) 20:14, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I am trying to think of facts that would be interesting. The egg colour and lifespan are pretty unremarkable and average for corvids....let me think..........I added eye colour to lead as it is a common misidentification issue...... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:15, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
the sources don't explicitly say but it would be Western on Rottnest and Eastern on Lord Howe. They are at opposite ends of the range so is easy to figure out. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:15, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What about on Kangaroo Island? Snowman (talk) 23:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It'll be eastern - Kangaroo Island is well east of border area Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:16, 22 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I think that the article is interesting. It would be good to have replies to the last two topics, but even without those replies, I think that the article content has achieved FA status. Snowman (talk) 20:59, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
thankyou - I have been pretty busy IRL. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:15, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Update: I have read the new Stub, which explains where the line is in Western Australia. Snowman (talk) 15:27, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
it's only recently being separated as a species, so there won't be any sources. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:15, 22 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from User Ceoil

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Generally very good, but one thing struck me - younger birds have dark brown eyes until fifteen months of age, and hazel eyes with an inner blue rim around each pupil until age two years and ten months. The two years and ten months sounds very specific, to such changes take place at this specificity? Note, I am not a scientist. Ceoil (talk) 04:52, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

yeah...spun me out when I first read that too, but that was based on extensive studies of captive crows and ravens in Oz - and they found that all five do the same colour shift but at slightly different ages..cool eh? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:13, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Ceoil (talk) 05:50, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
... and would it be worth mentioning in the main text that the observations of eye colour were made on captive birds. I am not sure about ravens, but in some species of parrots the eye colour can be different between wild and captive birds - possibly owing to diet or other aspects of captivity that is different to the wild. Snowman (talk) 13:36, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
have added an explanatory footnote now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:29, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note -- Did I miss a source review? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:26, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - all OK

[edit]
  • No issues with formatting.
  • No dead links.
  • No DAB links.
  • Reliable sources used throughout (as far as I can tell), including Higgins (2006) as apparent "standard" literature for the topic - OK.
  • Several source points have already been verified in earlier reviews - OK
  • fixed 2 minor nitpicks. GermanJoe (talk) 21:02, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Iselilja

[edit]
  • Fine article; the eye change photos add a lot.
  • Regarding the Relationship with humans section.
It says "shot, killed or poisoned". Isn't shot and poisoned sub-groups of killed? What does "killed" refer to here? Also, would it be relevant to include something about regulations: as I understand poisoning is not allowed; for shootings there are some regulations (Wildlife Conservation Act 1950).

d'oh! - removed the "killed" as those are the two methods used - intrigued that poisoning is not allowed given how much 1080 is used sbout the place for feral animals.....will have a look and see. Not sure if this is too general. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:24, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I see the birds are listed as a declared pest to agriculture in Western Australia. Relevant to include?

yes! will add a bit later after I do some RL chores.... added now 23:24, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Please don't use level 1-3 headers (they corrupt the FAC-page). Level 4 headers are OK though. Thank you. GermanJoe (talk) 21:02, 13 November 2014 (UTC) [reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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