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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 11 April 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Alcohol laws of New Jersey

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Alcohol laws of New Jersey (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): User:ColonelHenry, User:DavidinNJ

I am nominating this for featured article because over the last month and about 500 edits, I and User:DavidinNJ have transformed this article into a comprehensive analysis of New Jersey's alcoholic beverage control laws and law enforcement structure, their history, their impact on the industry, licensing, their implementation and legal issues that have developed from them interpretation and enforcement. We believe that this article covers all areas of the topic in an adequate, verifiable, and well-referenced manner. We look forward to any comments and ideas from the FA reviewers and thank you for your time and efforts. --ColonelHenry (talk) 06:10, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Nikkimaria and Kafziel

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Image review

  • Check captions against guidelines at WP:CAPTION - some of them seem quite long
  • None of them, as far as I read WP:CAPTION, are violative. Succinctness, according to policy, does not mean brevity. I would assert each of the caption (1) ID the subject clearly, (2) is succinct, (3) establishes relevance, (4) provides context, and (5) succeeds in focusing the reader's attention to draw him/her further into the article. They comport to examples depicted with the guideline. The guideline uses indefinite conditional verbs like "may" and "can", which imply succinctness as subordinate to the other goals of a caption (namely relevance, context, identification). Because I do not see them being violative of the guideline, could you please suggest an alternative you would prefer and/or state how you believe beyond "seem too long" that they are violative of the guideline cited? --ColonelHenry (talk) 17:59, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I shortened the captions on the images. DavidinNJ (talk) 16:00, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay. The opening map ends with a period but isn't a complete sentence, Ocean City uses an acronym that isn't explained until much later in the article, "legal drinking age" caption isn't clearly related to its image (the Stone Pony image does this well)
  • Grammar on Atlantic City caption

I changed "24 hours a day" to "24 hours per day." I don't see any other grammatical problems with the caption. DavidinNJ (talk) 22:18, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • File:Ocean_City_New_Jersey_Ferris_Wheel.JPG is tagged as lacking source info
  • Because I tried to take pictures in liquor stores in New Jersey near me (asking permission first) and I was asked to leave. The Colorado store picture looks like most NJ liquor stores I know of (there isn't much of a difference from one to another really that says "this only happens in Colorado"), it illustrates the concept, and it's a free photo. Will check the other three. --ColonelHenry (talk) 17:42, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think there should be a picture of a NJ liquor store, or none at all. Personally, I say screw asking permission; that's the kind of picture anyone can take with a camera phone in the middle of a slow day. Nobody would even notice. It's the sales floor of a business that's open to the public; they don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy, and the image isn't being used for profit. I don't think it would matter for a normal article, but for FA it's a concern. Kafziel Complaint Department: Please take a number 05:10, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that kind of behaviour would be at a minimum quite cavalier and worse potentially reckless. At its best, it could be successful and provide value to material presented here. At its worse, it could expose the photo-taker to arrest (trespassing, criminal mischief, etc.) and Wikipedia to tort liability (even if it was a far-fetched claim, some lawyer would still push the paperwork). Some businesses do not like photo-taking on their premises because of a paranoid but very valid fear of competitors using their model against them or amassing evidence of code violations, etc. In some jurisdictions that is an invasion of privacy or trespass that is considered a "tortious interference" and frequently litigated. There are a host of problems, and I would prefer not to be apart of improper behaviour leading to such problems nor would I be able to condone it. If permission is denied, it's denied. We should be respectful of that. I'd rather get denied permission 100 times and not get a picture than get sued or arrested once. Nevertheless, what does the free, currently-available Colorado liquor store photo lack in terms of content and illustrative merit or that makes it markedly different from a liquor store in any other jurisdiction aside from being in Colorado? If the only issue lodged against a perfectly useful, free, and illustrative photo is a detail that doesn't distinguish it as being any more distinct from a subjectively-favoured, less-available equal alternative, there is no issue. --ColonelHenry (talk) 05:48, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • What's the difference? The difference is that it's not in New Jersey. Maybe you don't know what the difference is, but there very well may be one. Maybe something subtle, like a brand on a shelf that isn't carried on the east coast. Or a region-specific marketing standee, like a Coors sign specifically meant for display in the Rocky Mountains. And, no, taking a photo could not have any of those legal ramifications, any more than it could have had for whoever took that one in Colorado. I'm far more concerned about respecting the quality of our Featured Articles than I am about respecting some random liquor store owner and his paranoid fantasy about property rights. Still, if you're worried about that, then you could simply remove the photo (which is in fact not very useful, because the article is not about liquor stores in general, and the photo has next to nothing to do with the caption anyway) and the same purpose is served. That's certainly an easy fix. Kafziel Complaint Department: Please take a number 06:14, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kafziel, You are correct that under New Jersey law a person can walk into a liquor store, and take a picture without the owner's consent. However, under state ABC regulations, the owner of a bar or can kick a person out for just about any reason. Legality aside, if a person doesn't want me to take a picture of their establishment, I'm not going to do so. I agree with Colonel Henry that we should be respectful of other's privacy. The location of the liquor store would be relevant if we were using it to showcase something unique to New Jersey. I don't see it as a problem in this case because we are just using it to highlight the fact that New Jersey has a limited number of retail licenses. That being said, I will see if there is a different picture available. DavidinNJ (talk) 15:58, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I absolutely agree that they could ask you not to; I'm just saying anyone (myself included, next time I'm there) could take a picture without asking in the first place. I apologize if my flippant "screw permission" comment made that unclear. I'm certainly not suggesting anyone slap a store owner in the face and tell him to go to hell if he asks you to leave. I would just apply the old maxim that it's better to beg forgiveness than to ask permission. You don't need to draw attention to yourself. Don't ask anyone about it. Don't hang up any signs, don't drag a tripod and a lighting kit in there. This kind of picture doesn't even require a DSLR. Just look at your Android phone for a second, touch the screen, and you're done. For all they know, you're reading a text message. If they get pissed, you just walk out and you still have the photo and the right to use it (because US freedom of panorama includes public areas of private buildings, like lobbies and sales floors). I do that kind of stuff all the time.
That said, the picture doesn't actually illustrate anything about the limited number of retail licenses, or their relation to the population. It's just a picture of a liquor store. It's not completely out of place, obviously, but it's not necessary at all. I don't know what sort of picture could illustrate such a concept; to be relevant, it would have to somehow simultaneously convey the total population of a town and the number of liquor licenses therein. That's a tough photo to take. Kafziel Complaint Department: Please take a number 16:16, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the most desirable picture would be one of a downtown area with a lot of bars. I know of a few such spots in New Jersey. You can use such an image to highlight the fact that some towns have far more liquor licenses than others. I can't guarantee anything, but I'll see what I can do. DavidinNJ (talk) 16:54, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
New Brunswick's Easton Avenue near the Rutgers campus would likely be the best for that. College bars...and it would come close to rivaling South Amboy's per capita stats.--ColonelHenry (talk) 18:08, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done (04MAR13) I believe that I've resolved the issue by replacing the Colorado liquor store photo with an iconic liquor store sign from Wildwood. By the way, Wildwood has an 58 liquor licenses, and 5000 year-round residents, which is much more than South Amboy's ratio. I guess they weren't counting vacation resorts when they listed what town had the most licenses per capita. DavidinNJ (talk) 19:11, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Great! No objection from me. Thanks, guys, and best of luck with the rest of the FAC. Kafziel Complaint Department: Please take a number 19:42, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Mattximus

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  • Comment For the Liquor licenses and permits section, the fee for licenses will no doubt change with time, so is it possible to write somwhere that the numbers are "as of February 2013" or something like that? Mattximus (talk) 23:05, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by IP address

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Map it may be worth appending ...."within the United states" to the caption 92.41.216.10 (talk) 15:23, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by FutureTrillionaire

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What's the source for all the info in the tables under the "Liquor licenses and permits" section. I don't see any citations.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:59, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Footnotes 31 and 32. The paragraph at the start of the section explains briefy the classes of licenses, and purpose of permits. The table is an extension of that introduction. --ColonelHenry (talk) 18:06, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Casino nightclubs are prohibited from offering full nudity, but the Taj Mahal casino has been granted permission to open a strip club with scantily clad dancers." What does this have to do with alcohol laws? This seems off-topic.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 18:41, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've done a source spot-check for about a dozen sources and found no issues. As for the article as a whole, I haven't read the article extensively enough to make a judgement on whether it meets all the FA criteria. I'll take a more in-depth look tomorrow.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:38, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

FN 23 has an inconsistent date format problem. It says "(January 3, 2013). Retrieved 8 February 2013." --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 18:58, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by GabeMc

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General
  • Page size. - There are currently 59 kB and 9,602 words of readable prose in the article. I suggest you attempt to trim it down wherever possible in hopes of bringing that total closer to 8,000 words.
  • WP:AS states that articles should have "30 kB to 50 kB of readable prose, which roughly corresponds to 6,000 to 10,000 words" This article is near the upper end of the limit, but I don't really see any sections that can be removed without reducing the structural comprehensiveness of the article. That being said, I will do what is necessary to make the article easier to read. DavidinNJ (talk) 01:08, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
  • Bold? - Should this text string be bold: "The state laws governing the control of alcohol beverages"?
  • Negative verb form. - "contain many peculiarities not found in other states". The negative verb form not, needs a preceeding auxillary. Consider: "contain many peculiarities that are not found in other states", or similar.
  • Unnecessary article. - "the availability of alcohol and the regulations governing". Omit the second "the".
  • Vague descriptor. - "vary greatly". Swap out "greatly" for "significantly" or "considerably", or similar.
  • Word choice. - "Today, New Jersey's alcohol industry is experiencing a renaissance". I'm not sure that "renaissance" is the best choice here.
  • Excess parentheticals? - "(i.e. wineries, breweries, distilleries, blenders), wholesalers, retailers (i.e. restaurants, bars, liquor stores, hotels, theatres, clubs)". Are these necessary?
  • Capitalisation. - "rests with the State government" is closely followed by "overseen by the state's Attorney General". Is there any reason why "state" is capped in the first mention, but not the second?
  • Starting sentence with "because". - "Because of the state's adherence", consider: "Due to the state's adherence", or similar.
  • Prose. - "New Jersey law gives individual municipalities substantial discretion". Consider: "New Jersey law allows individual municipalities substantial discretion", or similar.
  • Prose. - "creating ordinances to regulate the sale and consumption". Consider: "creating ordinances that regulate the sale and consumption".
  • Linking. - "issue retail licenses for bars, liquor stores, or for restaurants to serve alcohol to patrons." These terms appear earlier in the lead, in the parenthetical. Link on first mention in lead, and the first mention in the article body. Also, one could argue that terms as basic as bars, liquor stores, and restaurants should not be linked anyway.
  • Prose. - "are subject to high prices and fierce competition". Consider: "are subject to exorbitant fees and fervent competition", or similar.
  • Prose. - "New Jersey has a history of taverns and alcohol production dating to its early colonial history." Consider: "New Jersey's history of taverns and alcohol production dates to its early colonial period.", or similar.
  • Prose. - "dating to its early colonial history. Early colonial winemakers". Consider: "dating to its early colonial period. Colonial winemakers", or similar.
  • Prose. - "for producing quality wine", consider: "for producing high-quality wine", or similar.
  • Prose. - "specifically German and Italians". Consider: "specifically Germans and Italians".
  • Linking. - As with above, "new opportunities for the state's wineries and breweries", these linked terms appear earlier in the lead, and should be linked on their first mention in the lead, and first mention in the article, but I wonder if these common terms should be linked in the first place, per WP:OVERLINK.
Statewide statutes and enforcement
  • Prose. - "As of 2013, the current director of this Alcohol Beverage Control division is Michael I. Halfacre." Swap out "this" for "the".
  • Typo. - "towns in New Jersey began issing liquor licenses" "issing" → "issuing".
  • Prose. - "The 21st Amendment to the United States Constitution, which ended Prohibition, permitted the states to regulate matters related to alcohol. Immediately upon the end of Prohibition in 1933, New Jersey instituted the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law, which established and granted rulemaking powers to the Division of Alcoholic Beverage Control." Consider: "In 1933, the 21st Amendment to the United States Constitution ended Prohibition, permitting the states to regulate matters related to alcohol. New Jersey instituted the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law, which established and granted rulemaking powers to the Division of Alcoholic Beverage Control." Or similar.
  • Prose. - "The Alcoholic Beverage Control Law also established". Consider: "The law also established", as ABC has already been recently introduced in the prose.
  • Prose. - "alcohol manufacturers only sell to wholesalers, who only sell to retailers, who only sell to customers." Consider: "alcohol manufacturers may only sell to wholesalers, who may only sell to retailers, who may only sell to customers."
  • Overlinking. - "the department was incorporated into the Division of Law and Public Safety under the New Jersey Attorney General's office.[13]" The NJ AG is previously linked in the sub-section.
  • Scare quotes. - "New Jersey's statutes define an 'alcoholic beverage' as". There is no need to put alcoholic beverage in quotes here.
  • Typo. - "established a three-tier alcohol distibution system". distibution → distribution.
Municipal control
  • Prose. - The first two sentences are redundant, rework.
  • Wordy prose. - "Retail (for consumption or distribution) licenses are allocated in proportion to a municipality's population. Licenses permitting on-premises retail sale and consumption of alcoholic beverages (i.e. bars and restaurants) are allocated at a ratio of one license for 3,000 residents. A "package goods" license (a distribution license) is available at a ratio of one license per 7,500 residents." Consider: "Retail licenses for consumption or distribution are allocated in proportion to a municipality's population. Licenses permitting on-premises retail sale and consumption of alcoholic beverages (i.e. bars and restaurants) are allocated at a ratio of one license for 3,000 residents. Distribution licenses are available at a ratio of one license per 7,500 residents."
  • Prose. - "Because of the law gives significant latitude in a municipality's regulatory powers", consider: "Because the law grants a municipality significant latitude in regulatory powers," or similar.
  • Template issue. - "regulatory powers, As of 2013, 37 of the state's". Your use of the {{as of}} template is causing a mid-sentence capped letter.
  • Missing preposition. - "565 municipalities are "dry towns" that prohibit the sale alcohol".
  • Update, add context, clarify. - "In 1981, the town had 37, one for every 218 residents". Is this the most recent figure, or the all-time peak?
  • Done (03MAR13) by adding "comparatively" (for the 1981 figures) and "in 2000" (to clarify a when for the 22 license). I do not have enough information to make a claim of "all-time peak" or other superlatives. I am limited by my sources. --ColonelHenry (talk) 05:14, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Vague modifier. - "court decisions have generally exempted military bases". Consider replacing or removing "generally" as a vague modifier.
Liquor licenses and permits
  • Punctuation. - "New Jersey law provides for 29 distinct liquor licenses divided into five classes, as follows:" Omit comma following "classes" as excess.
  • with an enumerated series after a nonrestrictive clause, you always set it off with a colon, so the form "...into five classes, as follows: Class A..." was correct. DavidinNJ removed the comma, but the comma-colon usage was entirely correct.--ColonelHenry (talk) 22:42, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, TMK, "as follows" is a dependent clause, and we should not use a comma to separate a terminal dependent clause from the rest of the sentence. Nevertheless, this is a decidedly minor punctuation issue that certainly isn't an actionable objection. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:58, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done (04MAR13) Resolved by changing to "divided into the following five classes." DavidinNJ (talk) 01:42, 4 March 2013
  • Gabe...just fyi (since David's revision renders the issue moot)...you would be correct if and only if you were refering to dependent clauses that were restrictive appositives. This isn't one of them, it's non-restrictive. Non-restrictive clauses always are separated by commas.--ColonelHenry (talk) 03:20, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Punctuation. - "with the spirit of this chapter to issue a license but the contingency has not been expressly provided for". Place a comma before "but", per WP:QUOTE, this minimal change to typographical errors in quotations is allowed/encouraged.
  • Vague modifier. - "ABC licenses are generally issued for one year". As with above, avoid the vague modifier, "generally".
Availability of retail liquor licenses
  • Excess article. - "and at a social events run by non-profit organizations". Omit the indefinate article preceeding "social events".
  • Article use. - "by becoming an sales" "an" → "a".
  • Run-on. - "The sale of a new license is usually conducted by public auction and through the intense competition", add a comma before the coordinating conjuction, "and".
  • One word or two? - "typically obtained from existing licenseholders". Should "licenseholders" be one word?
  • Scare quotes. - "to obtaining only two 'package goods' licenses." 1) if a "package goods" license is the same as a distribution license, then use the later. 2) there is no need for scare quotes around package goods.
  • Prose suggestion. - "Because the number of Class C retail licenses for bars, restaurants, and liquor stores is limited by population and often by municipal ordinances, licenses are typically obtained from existing licenseholders who choose to sell, or when a new license is offered as a town's population grows." Consider: "The number of Class C retail licenses for bars, restaurants, and liquor stores is limited by population and often by municipal ordinances. Licenses are typically obtained from existing licenseholders who choose to sell, or when a new license is offered as a town's population grows."
  • Prose. - "As a result, the price for a retail license is quite expensive and often prohibitively so." Consider: "The price for a retail license is often prohibitively expensive", or similar.
  • Prose. - "usually conducted by public auction and through the intense competition a town can reap the benefit of several hundred thousand dollars of revenue". Consider: "usually conducted by public auction, the intense competition can benefit a town by generating several hundred thousand dollars of revenue ", or similar.
  • Done (04MAR13) Rewrote sentence: "The sale of a new license is usually conducted by public auction. The intense competition can benefit a town by generating several hundred thousand dollars of revenue from the highest bidder." DavidinNJ (talk) 02:10, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Vague. - "Unlike in many other states, supermarkets, convenience stores, and gas stations in New Jersey rarely sell alcoholic beverages." Many states allow supermarkets, convenience stores, and gas stations to sell beer. Consider: "Supermarkets, convenience stores, and gas stations in New Jersey rarely sell alcoholic beverages", or similar.
  • Done (04MAR13) Rewrote two sentences to state, "Supermarkets, convenience stores, and gas stations in New Jersey rarely sell alcoholic beverages because state law prohibits any person or corporation from possessing more than two retail distribution licenses." DavidinNJ (talk) 02:10, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Prose. - "This is largely because New Jersey limits any person or corporation to obtaining only two "package goods" licenses.[36]" Consider: "This is because New Jersey prohibits any person or corporation from obtaining more than two "package goods" licenses", or similar. Again, if "package goods licenses" is synonymous with "distibution licenses" then I would use the later for clarity and consistency and drop the unneeded scare quotes.
  • Done (04MAR13) Rewrote two sentences to state, "Supermarkets, convenience stores, and gas stations in New Jersey rarely sell alcoholic beverages because state law prohibits any person or corporation from possessing more than two retail distribution licenses." DavidinNJ (talk) 02:10, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Scare quotes. - "to create a separate 'restaurant license' allowing".
Dry towns
  • Subject verb agreement. - "Local ordinances in Ocean City prohibits restaurant patrons". "Prohibit" should be singular.
  • Prose. - "As of 2013, only 37 municipalities in New Jersey remain completely dry towns." Consider: "As of 2013, there are 37 dry municipalities in New Jersey", or similar.
  • Prose. - "For example, the seaside resort town of Ocean City has historically been dry since it was founded". Omit historically as a redundant descriptor.
  • Prose. - "municipal leaders frequently have placed this", consider: "municipal leaders have frequently placed this".
  • Done (04MAR13) I rewrote this sentence: "Because of a desire to attract new businesses and increase property tax revenue, towns that prohibit alcohol sales frequently have public referenda on whether they should remain dry." DavidinNJ (talk) 03:09, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - While it is common in colloquial American English idioms, it isn't considered correct to place an adverb (like frequently) betwixt the two verbs being modified (in this case have and placed).--ColonelHenry (talk) 03:41, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hours of operation and other licensing regulations
  • Dangling modifier. - "Besides prohibiting nudity in bars and clubs,"
  • Wordy. - "Besides prohibiting nudity in bars and clubs, it is illegal to sell liquor below cost, charge a flat fee for unlimited drinks (except for private parties and on New Year's Eve), offer any promotion that is contingent on drinking a certain amount of alcohol, allow patrons to remain after closing time, sell liquor at a drive-through window, or have a 'ladies' night' or any pricing which is regarded as discriminatory."
  • Done (04MAR13). I broke this sentence into 3 sentences: "Licensed establishments may not offer nudity. Because of concerns about excessive drinking and drunk driving, it is illegal to sell liquor below cost, charge a flat fee for unlimited drinks (except for private parties and on New Year's Eve), offer any promotion that is contingent on drinking a certain amount of alcohol, allow patrons to remain after closing time, or sell liquor at a drive-through window. Bars and clubs are prohibited from having a 'ladies' night' or any pricing which is regarded as discriminatory." DavidinNJ (talk) 04:12, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link/clarify. - "in Newark and Jersey City, no hard liquor package goods may be sold before 9 am and after 10 pm" Has it been previously established what "hard liquor" is? If not, define/clarify.
  • Wordy prose. - "liquor stores are specifically given the right to sell package beer and wine at any time on-premises sales are allowed", consider: "liquor stores may sell beer and wine during any hours that on-premises sales are allowed", or similar.
  • Vague. - "New Jersey regulations for liquor stores and bars are fairly strict."[according to whom?] In relation to what? Establish some context here if possible.
  • Done (04MAR13) I changed this to "New Jersey regulations for liquor stores and bars are extensive." Considering the laundry list of rules that follows, I think "extensive" is appropriate. DavidinNJ (talk) 04:12, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Words to avoid. - I noticed: three "Howevers", a "Furthermore", and a
  • Prose. - "ABC regulations permit a bar owner or employee to give away a free drink "on the house" as long as it is not advertised", omit "on the house" as an excess scare quote.
  • Clarity. - "Liquor stores are allowed to have beer". "Allowed to have", or "allowed to sell"?
  • Clarity. - "non-profit organizations with a special permit can have both tastings and tasting dinners". Similar to above, "can have" or "can hold/host".

In progress ... more to come. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:06, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. - The article is well-written, well-researched, and comprehensive. Perhaps a few minor prose issues remain, but certainly nothing significant enough to delay promotion to FA. Great work. Thanks for this fine contribution to the project Cheers! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:20, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by John

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It's an interesting and seemingly complete article. I was easily able to find typos and spelling errors in it. I was also easily able to take out a lot of verbiage which wasn't really adding anything (eg multiple instances of "years of age"). "However" needs to be used with great care. Images shouldn't be hard-coded without good reason. I am almost ready to support this, but it'd put my mind at rest to see another copyeditor take a pass at it. --John (talk) 14:27, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Grammarxxx

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  • Establishments offering BYOB are not allowed to charge "any admission fee or cover, corkage or service charge or advertise inside or outside of such premises that patrons may bring and consume their own wine or malt alcoholic beverages" (missing a period). Grammarxxx (What'd I do this time?) 18:19, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done At the beginning of the drinking age section, I added "21 years old" once. I don't think we need to have "21 years old" or "21 years of age" for every instance of 21. We formerly had that, and it seemed too verbose. DavidinNJ (talk) 18:31, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's largely a matter of opinion, but I agree with DavidinNJ and with John who reviewed it above, the fact that it's 21 years old is firmly established and doesn't need to be repeated ad nauseam.--ColonelHenry (talk) 19:32, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate comments

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  • Quite a few dup links according to Ucucha's script -- some may be justified owing to the article's length but pls review and see what can go. Certainly reasonably common terms like fingerprint don't need to be linked twice, perhaps not even once.
  • Do we really need a comma after "e.g."? I generally see it without, or is it an AmEng thing?

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:29, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: Grammatically, it's in that category of clauses like the comma-bearing non-restrictive appositives. But I agree, usage should be consistent one way or the other. Of the six major style guides (Chicago Manual of Style, Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation, The Columbia Guide to Standard American English, The Guide to Grammar and Writing, Lynch Guide to Grammar, Fowler's Modern English Usage) five advise the comma use. Only Fowler disagrees. Please advise which you would prefer. --ColonelHenry (talk) 11:35, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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