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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:13, 26 March 2011 [1].

ARA Rivadavia

[edit]

ARA Rivadavia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 08:25, 14 February 2011 (UTC), - Dank (push to talk) [reply]

Rivadavia is another article in my drive to get all South American dreadnought articles to FA. The ship had an interesting beginning but a stunningly boring career. The bidding process, described in detail in the class article, angered many countries, and the choice of an American country angered them further. Still, it turned out to be a fortuitous decision, as a ship ordered from a European company would have been taken over at the start of WWI. After many rumors of a sale to a belligerent country, Argentina took over the ships and did virtually nothing with them, aside from a European cruise in 1937, until they were scrapped in the late 50s.

I originally wrote this article in mid-2009. I improved it in December 2010, when it passed a WikiProject A-class review. I hope you enjoy reading the article!

Quick comment ... it's been a while since I've jumped in on a FAC that was underway, and I want to make sure no one gets the idea that I'm angling for a bronze star when I review or copyedit ... it's all free. Ed and I have worked together for a long time, including on this article, and he was pretty insistent that I join him. - Dank (push to talk) 04:07, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A quick plea for help from someone who has access to a New York Time archive (eg ProQuest): the Times took page numbers off of their archive, so I need your help to complete references 13 and 24. Many thanks, Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 08:25, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Rodw I know very little about the topic, so please accept that some of these comments may be due to my ignorance:

Lead

  • Is acorazados Spanish for battleship or dreadnought battleship? Do we need this translated and the term for the Argentine Navy?
  • Note 1 tells us that "ARA" is an acronym for Armada de la República Argentina which is currently in brackets in the text — why are both needed?
  • Would it be worth wikilinking Axis powers as some readers may not be aware of the meaning of this phrase?

Background

Construction and trials

Service

  • Is it normal to take 2 months to get from the USA to Buenos Aires?
    • Hmmm. The ship would have only traveled at 10 to 15 knots with stops for coal, but a trip to London at roughly half the distance would have only been a week or so... this is a very good question, and I will look farther into it. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 18:35, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • What does "First Division" mean in this context & why is it capitalised when "training division" isn't? (although it is in the 4th para)
  • The vessel is the Rivadavia throughout until the 4th para of this section when we get "The dreadnought joined..." - any reason for the change?
    • I like the current wording. I can expand on that if you like. - Dank (push to talk)
  • I became confused with active & in reserve, later followed by "active service" which seems to be something different.
  • The grammar of "she was moored in Puerto Belgrano from 1948 on, "gradually reduced into ineffectiveness" from 1951, and was left derelict and unarmed, a source for cannibalized equipment, from 1952." could be improved - initial S capitalised & punctuation looked at.

References

  • Why are one journal and one author redlinked when the others aren't? Are they in some way more notable?

I hope these comments make sense and are useful.— Rod talk 19:28, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments: Generally these look OK. Spotchecks on the online links reveal no problems. One question of format, re the Livermore citations. At present we have "12: Livermore 45", then "14: Livermore 45–46", "15: 46–47" and "16: Livermore 47". With all these overlaps there is scope for combining; why not "Livermore, 45–47"? Brianboulton (talk) 22:46, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Brian. To answer your query, they are in different paragraphs or have different refs in-between. :-) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:20, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. I've just finished copyediting per my standard disclaimer; feel free to revert. - Dank (push to talk)

  • It's generally appropriate to give the foreign-language term (acorazado in this case) if that term is often used in English sources, which happens in some cases, especially if the foreign term doesn't mean exactly the same thing as the word that generally translates it. I haven't read most of the sources so I can't say whether this applies to acorazado.
  • "a general machinery overhaul,": You've got a comma at the end of a sentence here. If there's a period in the quoted material, you can put it either inside or outside the quote marks; otherwise it goes outside.
  • The general rule would be to lowercase "the navy", but I understand how you got rolling with "the Navy". If someone wants to change it, that's fine with me.
  • Support per standard disclaimer. - Dank (push to talk) 16:55, 16 February 2011 (UTC) Hopping in as a co-nom ... I still support, but it's not the same thing :) - Dank (push to talk) 04:14, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disambig/External Link check - no dabs, 1 dead external link. (The second external link, the one to the spanish pictures) --PresN 00:35, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

SupportComments

Comment The two images seem to have appropiate licences MBelgrano (talk) 20:11, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you both! Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:35, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Comments

Comments: The article is generally sound, although I agree with Nikkimaria that the prose needs some work.

    • General note: I'm happy to respond to any comments on the prose, although I don't always agree. If my suggestions don't sound right to Australian ears, let me know. - Dank (push to talk)
      • The Australian/American/British English divide is generally exaggerated; I read a lot of texts published in the States for my work and study, so I'm generally aware of any differences. Apterygial 00:18, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During their construction, there were numerous rumors that Argentina might sell them to a country engaged in the First World War, but the ships were not sold." Why say "numerous?"? "rumors" (with the plural) should stand on its own.
  • United States should not need linking.
  • Perhaps "She saw no active duty during the Second World War; Argentina remained neutral until March 1945 when the country declared war on the Axis powers, too late for Rivadavia to become involved."
    • This changes the meaning in a couple of ways, but it might be okay. Ed? - Dank (push to talk)
      • I would be fine with this change. The parallel I draw on is with the Brazilian battleships – while were not actively used because they were old and not in the best condition, but at the same time they were employed in limited capacities. Presumably the Rivadavias would have at least been used in limited ways had they joined the Allies sooner. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 19:23, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Rivadavia's genesis can be traced to the naval arms races between Chile and Argentina which were spawned by territorial disputes over their mutual borders in Patagonia and Puna de Atacama along with control of the Beagle Channel." Perhaps add a couple of commas to break up the sentence: "Rivadavia's genesis can be traced to the naval arms races between Chile and Argentina, which were spawned by territorial disputes over their mutual borders in Patagonia and Puna de Atacama, along with control of the Beagle Channel."
  • Perhaps even combine "1890s" into the first sentence here, so "...can be traced to naval arms races between Chile and Argentina in the 1890s, which were spawned..." The next sentence would then be "These naval arms races flared up again in 1902, and were eventually stopped through British mediation."
    • I'd agree with you if the second sentence had to add a lot more words in order to fit "1890s" in, but it didn't. Since the first sentence seemed to you to need "breaking up" (and I agree), it's not going to help things to add even more to the sentence. - Dank (push to talk)
  • "Through" rather than "via".
    • Webster's New World Dictionary and Thesaurus, in the thesaurus, groups "via" with "with the assistance or aid of, on, supported by". Merriam-Webster's gives: "through the medium or agency of". Do you have a dictionary, thesaurus or style guide that sheds some light on this? - Dank (push to talk)
  • "abrupt shock". Shocks are generally abrupt.
  • "Historian Robert Scheina commented that the ships ordered by Brazil "outclassed the entire [elderly] Argentinian fleet."" This is very picky, but the way it is written suggests he said it at the time.
    • Agreed, changed to "has commented". - Dank (push to talk)
      • This quote seems a little incongruous in the text; perhaps better as an explanatory note?
  • Did the wife of the Argentine Minister to the United States have a name?
  • "In mid-September 1913, Rivadavia conducted trials off Rockland, Maine, but only after a two-week delay after turbine malfunctions." Perhaps, "After a two-week delay due to turbine malfunctions, Rivadavia conducted trials off Rockland, Maine, in mid-September 1913."
    • I rejected "due to" at first, but after reading up a bit, I think it's fine. "Due to" gets the stink-eye from some overzealous style gurus. Otherwise, I prefer Ed's word order, but I can agree to lose "but only". Okay with you, Ed? - Dank (push to talk)
    • Either way is fine with me. :-) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 19:23, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since speed trials is a red link, perhaps add a short explanation, or de-link.
  • "various rumors".
    • It's not wrong, but I can go along with losing the modifier here (as opposed to above) because all the examples follow immediately, so the reader doesn't have to be told that there are a lot of rumors. - Dank (push to talk)
  • "some Argentines". In government or the military, or the media, or the populace?
  • "This angered the American government, which did not want its warship technology offered to the highest bidder—yet they did not want to exercise a contract-specified option that gave the United States first choice if the Argentines decided to sell, as naval technology had already progressed past the Rivadavia class, particularly in the adoption of the "all-or-nothing" armor scheme." Very long sentence; suggest splitting after "highest bidder", so "...offered to the highest bidder. However, they did not..."
    • I split it, but I went with "Neither did they want ...". Rationalizations on request. - Dank (push to talk)
  • "Instead, the United States and its State Department and Navy Department put diplomatic pressure on the Argentine government." How so?
  • "...even though she was not fully completed until December." Maybe "although" rather than "even though"?
    • "Even though" is slightly stronger than "although" in AmEng, and appropriate here since she was being commissioned a long time before she was finished. Does it sound wrong to Australian ears? - Dank (push to talk)
  • Surely it's common knowledge Buenos Aires is the capital of Argentina?
    • For graduates of the US educational system, it's not common knowledge that South America is south of North America. - Dank (push to talk)
  • Over 47,000 what?
  • "President of the Republic Victorino de la Plaza." Perhaps "Argentinian President Victorino de la Plaza.
    • What's wrong with reminding people that Argentina was a republic, and avoiding frequent repetition of "Argentina"? - Dank (push to talk)
      • What tripped me up was that there are eight consecutive words which are linked. The fact that Argentina was a republic is not critical to understanding this article, but I'll let this go.
  • "...she called on three countries in the Caribbean and northern South America, includingTrinidad, Venezuela, and Colombia." or "...she called on three countries in the Caribbean and northern South America: including Trinidad, Venezuela, and Colombia."
  • "over the years" is an awkward phrase; perhaps "...and was gradually cannibalized..."
    • I went with "over many years"; "gradually" isn't right, since a lot of it happened immediately. - Dank (push to talk)

I'll be happy to support once these are addressed. Apterygial 01:51, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I'm satisfied with the article. There are a couple of outstanding points, but not enough to prevent me from supporting, and I'm confident they'll be fixed. Apterygial 23:10, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I have addressed your remaining points. Thanks so much for your review – I really appreciate the time you took to put this together. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 08:37, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Query Hi Ed17, nice work, just a couple of queries
  1. "designed by the American Fore River Shipbuilding Company" begs the question who built it? May I suggest "designed and built by the American Fore River Shipbuilding Company".
    Thanks for your review, WSC. You know, I was all about getting the lead sentences right a year ago ... all the good feedback we're getting at FAC these days is making me realize that my focus on Milhist's A-class review hasn't been entirely good for my copyediting ... I'm faster now, but sloppier. I'll have to fix that. I added "and built" and moved this bit from the first sentence to the second paragraph. - Dank (push to talk) 12:44, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks Dank, didn't realize you and Ed17 were collaborating on this. Curious isn't it how this site draws one into lots of milhist editing. ϢereSpielChequers 22:43, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Conversion from coal to fuel oil is liable to greatly increase the range, or free up bunker space for other purposes. Could you check whether the range figure was before or after the refit?
    It would be before, as it didn't list the armament alterations. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:11, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  3. "The rumors were partially true; some Argentines in the government were looking to get rid of the battleships and devote the proceeds to opening more schools". Presumably being an Argentine wasn't particularly unusual in that particular Government?
    Done. - Dank (push to talk)
    Thanks, I was thinking of linking that into a history of Argentina article, but History of Argentina (The Radicals in Power, 1916–1930) has the Conservatives in power until 1916, then losing to the radicals. I think that jibes with the bit about socialist gains in 1914, I was thinking of simply replacing Socialist with Radical, but the dates conflict. ϢereSpielChequers 22:43, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Uh oh, I wonder if Livermore is wrong in his date of 1914? Socialists can't gain in 1914 without an election... does anyone have a source on this? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:11, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    The only book I checked is Scheina's Latin America. It's not there. - Dank (push to talk) 20:20, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    It looks like both the Radicals and the Socialists made massive gains in 1914 and 1916. The Radicals went from 24% in 1912 to 32%, then 48%. The Socialists went from 21% in 1912 to 36% to 41%. See p. 228 in Jeremy Adelman, "Socialism and Democracy in Argentina in the Age of the Second International," The Hispanic American Historical Review 72, no. 2 (1972), 211–238, JSTOR 2515555. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:34, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  4. As she served as flagship I'd expect the name of an Admiral to appear as well as commanding officers.
    My sources don't give any... I may try hunting in the London Times microfilms this weekend for more details on this and the communist oil strike. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:11, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Some mention of crew sizes and structure would be relevant.
    My sources give a single crew size number, and nothing more. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:11, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  6. "In 1917, the ship sailed to Comodoro Rivadavia when communist oil workers went on strike" - more detail on this would be interesting, was this to maintain order or to break the strike? ϢereSpielChequers 09:40, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Unfortunately, that's all Whitley says. I thought the same thing as you when I first read that... Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:11, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Looking at the pictures I see five twin gun turrets as the main armament but the article refers to 12 main guns, though I suppose it is possible there is another turret amidships. Please could you check this and confirm their layout. ϢereSpielChequers 22:57, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    See File:Rivadavia-class battleships.jpg. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:11, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support - aside from a few nitpicks, a nice easy read that was comprehensible and understandable.

Ealdgyth - Talk 21:48, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My replies are above. Sorry to Dank for overwriting your lower comments, but I didn't feel like restoring "Ed got it" after the edit-conflict. :-) Ealdgyth, thanks for reviewing this – I greatly appreciate it. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 22:08, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Really appreciate it, V. - Dank (push to talk) 00:18, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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