Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/2017 EFL Championship play-off Final/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ealdgyth via FACBot (talk) 7 July 2020 [1].

2017 EFL Championship play-off Final

Nominator(s): The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 18:52, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Commonly accepted as the most valuable single association football match in the world, this play-off final went all the way to a penalty shoot-out. Marvellous, as they say, play-offs are the ideal way to get promoted but the worst way to lose. As ever, all comments will be addressed as soon as practicable, and thank you in advance for your kind attention. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 18:52, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review: pass

Ref #11 doesn't include work details.
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 16:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In ref #16, I would expect "Bleacher Report" to be the website or work, rather than the publisher.
I'm following the convention that our own article uses. If you think that needs to be moved to italics, then I'll follow suit here. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 17:16, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The title of that article is in italics. Harrias ^talk 17:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, it was surreptitiously changed September last year. I hadn't noticed. Happy to follow that. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:08, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref #18, "Team news: Town vs Reading", Huddersfield actually credit the author, who needs adding.
Added. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 16:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref #20 needs to be reformatted to match the other BBC sources, and needs author details adding.
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 16:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't notice before, but this also needs publication date adding. Harrias ^talk 17:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Added. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:10, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref #22 needs the publishing date added, and to be consistent, Reading FC should be linked.
Added. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 16:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As a recent event there are no obvious book or academic sources discussing the match. In time, it might be included in a history of Reading or Huddersfield, but no major publications had appeared on either club since 2017.
Indeed. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 16:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
My only major concern is whether live commentaries of the game are considered "high-quality reliable sources". They almost certainly receive no editorial oversight given their live nature. While this wouldn't be a concern if they were used sparingly, they provide the entire sourcing for three of the four paragraphs of the match itself, with only "Huddersfield 0 Reading 0 (4–3 on pens): Danny Ward the shootout hero as Town win Premier League payday" from The Telegraph also being used in the fourth paragraph. As a consequence this means that the match is almost exclusively sourced to one publication, one author, which also raises concerns about whether it meets the requirement to be "thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature".
Well I very much doubt the Daily Telegraph, the BBC nor The Guardian (for instance) would continue to host material which they deem to be in any way unreliable. Even match reports from "back in the day" were written by a sole reporter, usually dictated over telephone and transferred straight to print with no editorial oversight. I can add more "as it happened" sources, and other much more top-level match descriptions written after the event which are usually much more bland for corroboration of events. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 16:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've added corroborating BBC sources throughout the match report. Nothing there is contradictory. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 17:17, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've opened a thread at Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates#Live sports text commentaries: are they "high-quality reliable sources". As I mention there, I'm not aiming to rehash this review, but look for a wider consensus going forwards (or finding out if there is already a consensus that I'm not aware of.) Harrias ^talk 18:15, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ah well, there goes this FAC. These trifling sports articles are already treated with scorn by many and now we're suggesting that articles by the BBC, The Guardian and The Daily Telegraph may not be high-quality enough. The alternative, of course, is to reduce the coverage of the match itself to next-to-nothing per the post-match reports, but somehow I think that is doing our readers a disservice, not to mention that you'd have an article about a match, with less than 5% of the article being about the match. Never mind. It will certainly derail any chance of this review being completed in a timely fashion, FAC is slow enough as it is, but this is the icing on the cake. Never mind. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 18:41, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It perhaps isn't directly part of a source review, but ..with Wagner in particular noted as a leader of rare charisma and intelligence." is missing an opening quotation mark. Harrias ^talk 14:47, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Opening quote added. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 16:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Harrias cheers for the comments. I've responded above. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 16:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Harrias well with just one voice against the use of such sources, there seems to be a general consensus in favour of their use, specifically in the match report itself. Hope that helps. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I've been following the discussion. I've got some back to work training this afternoon (because after three months, I've forgotten how to do my job, or something...) After that I'm going to have another pass through checking the fixes and should hopefully be able to wrap this up then. Harrias ^talk 11:07, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As you say, the general consensus seems to be that these sources are acceptable, so I consider this point resolved. Harrias ^talk 17:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

One new point; because you added the BBC sources into the match summary to placate me, the first source after "Obita was then booked for what Barry Glendenning of The Guardian referred to as a "rugby tackle" on Quaner." is the BBC one, not the Guardian one which actually sources it. Harrias ^talk 17:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed.

Harrias cheers, I think I've now addressed your replies. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:10, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Great, all sorted. Harrias ^talk 06:57, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:53, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

I've copyedited a little; please revert anything you disagree with.

~~I think it would be worth mentioning Fulham and Sheffield Wednesday as the defeated semi-final opponents in the first paragraph of the lead.~~
I've noted those. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 08:54, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
~~For those not familiar with the Premier League, I think adding "through sponsorship and television deals" to the £170 million figure in the lead would be useful.~~
Added. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 08:54, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
~~and a win by the same scoreline in February for Wednesday: Huddersfield, not Wednesday, surely?~~
No, both teams won their home games 1–0. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 08:54, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Um, if that's right I'm absolutely confused. The paragraph is about the match between Huddersfield and Reading. Why are Sheffield Wednesday mentioned? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:09, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Mike Christie gagahgahhghahhh. Serves me right for trying to plough on and write as many of these as possible, confused myself, and you in the process. Now FIXED. Cheers for the patience!! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:16, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hah. No worries; done similar things myself many times. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:28, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
~~with concessions being half price: I don't understand this -- is there a link that would help?~~
I really don't think so. It's common BritEng, our article on Discounted price redirects to something that wouldn't be helpful in this context, and Wiktionary is a morass of unhelpfulness. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 08:54, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
~~only for him to shoot wide of the right post; half ended 0–0: clearly something missing here -- should it be "the half"?~~
Definitely. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 08:54, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's everything. It's hard to write descriptions of match play that are engaging. There's a tendency for match descriptions to collapse into proseline; you've avoided that but it doesn't sparkle. Not something I'd oppose over, though. I don't have good advice on how to do better -- I think it's one of the hardest things to do well in writing for Wikipedia. Anyway, once the minor points above are fixed I expect to support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:45, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mike Christie I've responded above, apologies for not noticing your comments until now. I can do sparkling match reports when the matches are sparkling, so keep your eyes peeled for 1998 Football League First Division play-off Final...... Many thanks. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 08:54, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All but one point struck. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:09, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Looks good. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:28, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gonzo_fan2007

Resolved comments from « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 19:58, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*"The 2017 EFL Championship play-off Final was an association football match which was played" - "which" to "that"

Comme si, comme ca. Sure. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"The match was to determine the third and final team to gain promotion from the EFL Championship" - "was to determine" to "determined"
Okay. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If this is a British thing, than disregard, but "partook" can be more clearly or normally stated as "took part in"
It's fine in BritEng. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You damn Brits. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:46, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Reading finished third while Huddersfield ended the season in fifth place." - rewrite to "Reading finished the season in third place while Huddersfield finished in fifth place" or something similar.
No, I'm trying to avoid repetitive prose, such as repeating "finish" and "place" in your suggestion. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
How about just moving "place" to after "third". It comes across clearer when you say "third place" and then later in the sentence "fifth" is understood to have "place". « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:46, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Tweaked. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 07:32, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"The winners of these ties competed for the final place for the 2017–18 season" - would "spot" be better than "place" here?
Not in BritEng. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You damn Brits. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:46, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"The game was played in front of a crowd of 76,682 and was refereed by Neil Swarbrick." - rewrite to "The game, which was refereed by Neil Swarbrick, was played in front of a crowd of 76,682."
Not keen on adding comma'ed clauses when they're not necessary. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
My issue with this sentence is that the two clauses aren't really related to each other. It won't hold up any support, but I do think there is an opportunity to improve this sentence. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:46, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I've tweaked. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 07:32, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Although Michael Hefele was the first to miss, Reading's Liam Moore's shot was wayward and Jordan Obita's attempt was saved by Danny Ward, and Huddersfield won the final 4–3 on penalties." - kind of a long sentence, can you break into two or use a semi-colon somewhere?
Broken up. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"The following season, Huddersfield's first back in the top tier of English football since 1972, saw them finish 16th in the Premier League." - rewrite to "Hudderfield finished the following season, their first in the Premier League since 1972, in 16th place." (assuming that English top tier was the Premier League in 1972?) The recommended change is mostly to get away from "saw them finish" and convert to active voice.
We didn't have the Premier League in 1972 so that's why it's worded as is. And again it's to avoid repetitive prose. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:46, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Reading's last appearance in the play-off final had been in 2011 when they had lost 4–2 to Swansea City." - change to "final was in 2011 when they lost"
Sure. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Reading had also lost in the second-tier play-off semi-finals in 2003 and 2009" - drop "had"
No, I'm not sure here, this reads better to me to keep "had". The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ok « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:46, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"with assistant referees Jake Collin and Darren Cann, and Stuart Attwell acted as the fourth official" - change the 2nd "and" to "while"
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Kermogant found Chris Gunter who needed treatment after he was tackled" - add a comma after "Gunter"
I usually get accused of comma abuse, but I'll add this. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is a lot of colloquial descriptions of the game in the summary, but "snatched" seems a little too colloquial and not encyclopedic enough
How would you describe a shot which was taken quickly and pulled a bit for which we would say "snatched shot"? The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know! Stolen? Seized? If it is very common BritEng, then fair enough. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:46, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, it's common, damn us Brits... The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 07:32, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Huddersfield's first season back in the top tier of English football since 1972 saw them end the Premier League in 16th place" - same comment as the lead
See above. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's everything. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 23:24, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gonzo_fan2007 thanks, I've responded to each of your comments. Cheers, The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gonzo_fan2007 Responded again, cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 07:32, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Huddersfield kicked off the first period of extra time and in the 2nd minute, a Brown header from a Mooy cross was cleared by Liam Moore." - In all honesty, it took me three times to understand the set-up of this sentence. Maybe change "and" to a semi-colon? Or change it up to say "Laim Moore cleared a Brown header after a cross by Mooy". « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"The Huddersfield coach Wagner stated:" - maybe "Hudderfield's coach Wagner stated:"? This wording sounds weird to me. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:38, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Aaron Mooy was named the man of the match." - a somewhat surprise, short statement in the middle of the paragraph. Can you add anything, such as why he was name MotM ("his energy and guile", his game winning shot, etc?) « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:38, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just a recommendation. No worries if you don't like it. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:51, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Addressed all the above, I think I got everything but don't hesitate to point me at anything I've missed. Cheers again. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 17:39, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support based on the criteria: comprehensive, well written, and appropriate length and structure. Nice work TRM. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 19:58, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, and thanks again for your review. I promise the next one will be a more exciting read, this was really an acid test. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:25, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from WA8MTWAYC

A great article overall (I was really pleased with Huddersfield's promotion) and it meets the criteria imo. I've got some minor comments. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 09:51, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Two minutes later, Grabban's shot passed wide of Huddersfield's post." Grabban is not linked here (first time you mentioned him)
Great spot, cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:04, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if the Brits have other rules for Dutch names, but if the first name is absent, then the surname needs to start with a capital letter. E.g. Joey van den Berg scored the team's first goal; the team's first goal was scored by Van den Berg. There are three instances of "van den Berg" in the second half section.
Indeed, 'tis the same here, and it would help if those three instances didn't say "van der Berg" too! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:04, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, sharp! WA8MTWAYC (talk) 18:04, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Reading had the majority of the second half possession and won a free-kick wide on the left after Kachunga fouled on Tyler Blackett." Is "Fouled on" correct?
It certainly ain't, fixed. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:04, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Reading started the second half of extra time but Huddersfield enjoyed the early possession with missed chances from Hefele and La Parra." La Parra > Van La Parra
Learnt my lesson now.... The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:04, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"sending the play-off final to a penalty shootout for the third time ever." Maybe clarify that it was the third time in the history of the second tier.
Vital. Thanks for noticing and picking it up. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:04, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WA8MTWAYC thanks so much for your great spots, and your support. Very much appreciated. Do let me know if there's anything else I can tweak. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:04, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man No problem! I've read the article again, but found no errors or something like that. It's a great piece of work that also mentions the odd fact such as Huddersfield's negative goal difference (certainly quite unique).

There is however something you could do for me, but only if you're willing to of course. I've listed List of Burnley F.C. records and statistics as a FLC, but so far it has received only one review. Cheers. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 18:04, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Will do. Cheers again. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 18:45, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, The Rambling Man! WA8MTWAYC (talk) 20:35, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@FAC coordinators: anything else required here? The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:30, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.