Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/12th Central Committee of the Communist Party of Vietnam/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by FrB.TG via FACBot (talk) 12 November 2023 [2].

12th Central Committee of the Communist Party of Vietnam

Nominator(s): TheUzbek (talk) 11:42, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the 12th electoral term of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Vietnam, and I've been thinking of nominating it since I got the 12th Politburo of the Communist Party of Vietnam to WP:FL standard.

What is a central committee? It is the highest decision-making body of a socialist state when the party congress is adjourned. It is composed of the entire national leadership of the country. This organ makes decisions on every matter of national importance. This is the only article of its kind (about communist institutions, I think) that has been nominated for FL.

I aim to create a Featured topic of the 12th CC term on members, alternates, politburo composition, secretariat composition, inspection commission composition, military commission composition and the 12th National Congress. Hopefully, this nomination succeeds and I can begin work on the 12th CPV National Congress. --TheUzbek (talk) 11:52, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to FAC

Hi TheUzbek and thank you for your nomination to FAC. A few pointers on the process and how to get the best from it:

What to expect

As a first time nominator at FAC, the nominated article will need to pass a source-to-text integrity spot check and a review for over-close paraphrasing.
You should be aware that every aspect of the article will be rigorously examined, including the standard of prose; breadth, standard and formatting of sources; image licencing; and adherence to the Manual of Style.

Dealing with reviewers

Try to deal with comments in a timely and constructive fashion
Remember the reviewers are constructively giving their opinion on the article
Keep calm when dealing with criticism of any aspect of the article
Don't take the criticism personally: reviewers are examining the article – not you!

How to get the best from the process

Reviewing the work of others is a good way to get a grasp of the process from the other side
Reviewing also increases the likelihood that others will review your nomination – although remember there is no quid pro quo at FAC.

Finally, good luck with the nomination! FrB.TG (talk) 19:25, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to write this. I will take some of my spare time to review one or more articles :) TheUzbek (talk) 08:09, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Suggest adding alt text

File:Nguyễn_Phú_Trọng_cropped.jpg: source link is dead, needs a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:03, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, and done on all points! :) TheUzbek (talk) 08:08, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from mujinga

Part1

Done "His term and the 12th CC were marked by the nationwide anti-corruption campaign, commonly called blazing furnace, that began in 2013" a nationwide for "the"? and I think it would be good to have the original langauge version of blazing furnace included
- I don't quite understand what you mean by "the"?
  I meant to suggest "a nationwide anti-corruption campaign" instead of "the nationwide anti-corruption campaign" Mujinga (talk) 10:09, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done TheUzbek (talk) 10:27, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
not sure about the red links in infobox?
- Some of them are very important articles, such as the Charter of the Communist Party of Vietnam, which is a must article which English WP is currently missing
  it can be added to the infobox when created Mujinga (talk) 10:09, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done "The campaign's intensity increased during the 12th term as it began enveloping retired, incumbent and senior leaders at all levels of governance." - enveloping doesn't seem right, perhaps investigating, although that's getting a bit alliterative perhaps
it seems you've done this but didn't mark done Mujinga (talk) 10:09, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Correct, Done TheUzbek (talk) 10:28, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done link to Trần Quốc Vượng (politician) on first mention in lead
Done you are getting a few "CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)" error messages in the commmentaries section
- How do you fix that?
  do you see the error? if you do you can click through to the (convulted) help page Mujinga (talk) 10:09, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not done (not the same guy, but introduced interlinking) Le Long Hiep, - is this Lê_Hồng_Hiệp? if it is, prob worth adding an interlanguage link with Template:Interlanguage link. and if there are any similar cases, worth doing for them as well eg Nguyễn Thanh Nghị, Nguyễn Xuân Anh, Lê Quốc Phong,
Done link Nguyễn Phú Trọng on first mention
Done could you briefly explain what Đổi Mới is, otherwise it seems like a person
Done "Seventeen of the 180 members and 3 of the 20 alternates" - 3 can be "three", 20 could be twenty or not, I suppose you are using "Seventeen" because it begins the sentence
Done " 12th Central Committee. On 26 January, the congress delegates voted on the 11th CC's list of nominees for members and alternates of the 12th CC" - should put (CC) after Central Committee
Done "16 members of the sitting Governmen" - starting with 16 not sixteen?
Done "After being elected on 26 January 2016, the 12th CC convened for its 1st Plenary Session on 27 January 2016 at the Headquarters of the Party Central Committee in Hà Nội during the 12th National Congress to elect the 12th Politburo, 12th Central Inspection Commission (CIC) and three members of the 12th Secretariat, as well as the General Secretary and the CIC Chairman" - suggest breaking into two sentences
Done "Asked about his re-election, Nguyễn Phú Trọng stated, "I did not expect the Congress to introduce and elect me to the Central Committee. Then, the First Plenary Session elected me to the post of General Secretary with almost 100% absolute votes. I was surprised because my age was advanced while my health and qualifications were limited. I also asked for leave, but the Party assigned me the task, and I had to comply."[13]" - I'm seeing both re-election and reelected, can you standardise across the text? also I wouyld expect to see the quotation in its original language in the citation
- Why? and in this instance it does not make grammatical sense.
  What I meant was it's not good to have forms of both "re-elect" and "reelect" in the same article, it needs to be standardised to one or the other Mujinga (talk) 10:09, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Aha, I misunderstood! :) TheUzbek (talk) 10:26, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done "The election results were announced in the morning of 28 January by Đinh Thế Huynh, on behalf of the Presidium of the 12th National Congress, to the congress delegates.[14] Đinh Thế Huynh reported that the electoral process carried out by the 1st Plenary Session were in accordance with the CPV Charter and the Election Regulations passed by the 12th National Congress, and were in accordance with inner-party democracy.[15] On the same day, the re-elected Nguyễn Phú Trọng delivered a closing speech on behalf of the 12th Central Committee to the 12th National Congress.[16]" - do we need anything more than the first sentence here?
"Done Seven members served in the 11th Politburo. " - I'd say "had served" reads better
"one had led a committee of the 13th National Assembly of Vietnam (Trương Thị Mai)" - good that you give the Vietnamese term for 13th National Assembly of Vietnam but this needs to be done consistently eg also for 11th Central Committee and Presidium of the 12th National Congress my mistake, that's someone's name

Part2

Done "Scholar Alexander Vuving notes that Nguyễn Phú Trọng's election as general secretary "surprised many observers."[18] Rodion Ebbighausen, writing for Deutsche Welle, wrote that Nguyễn Phú Trọng's reelection was a victory by conservative Marxist–Leninist forces over Nguyễn Tấn Dũng's capitalist approach. He also highlighted the personal differences between them: Nguyễn Phú Trọng affirmed collective leadership while Nguyễn Tấn Dũng represented an individualistic ethos. While unsure what consequences this would have for Vietnamese politics, Ebbighausen opined that the new leadership would take a more oppressive stance on foreign media and dissidents.[19] A report from the BBC News shared Ebbighausen's conservative versus reformer analysis and noted that Nguyễn Tấn Dũng was perceived "as modern, and friendly towards the US. He has also gained popularity domestically with strong anti-China rhetoric when it comes to disputed territory in the South China Sea".[20]" - whilst the Vuvig summary is good, I don't think we need direct quotes from DW or BBC, prob better to summarise the arguments
Done Photo caption: "The 2nd Plenary Session adopted the Politburo's proposal on nominating Nguyễn Xuân Phúc, Trần Đại Quang and Nguyễn Thị Kim Ngân as Prime Minister, President and Chair of the National Assembly, respectively." - it's confusing me to have three people described and two pictured without any pointer as to who is who. Also you can if you want wikilink names in captions (or keep them unlinked, as long as it's standardised across the other pictures - I see at the moment of bit of both)
Done "Trần Đại Quang steered the proceedings on the opening day. Đinh Thế Huynh started the proceedings in the early morning by reading," 2x proceedings
"The plenum supported the 12th Politburo's proposal for the 2016–2020 socio-economic development plan and agreed to send it to the 11th Session for approval. In addition, it made some proposals of its own―but those proposals were not made public. The 12th CC informed the Politburo that the mid-term State finance-budget and mid-term public investment plans needed further refinement before being submitted to the 11th Session. Members of the 12th CC emphasised the importance of investing in agriculture, farmers and rural areas; revamping the state administration and procedures; and strengthening the business climate. Other concerns aired included high government overspending; bad public debt; the size of the public debt amid volatilities seen in the global financial market; climate change policies to mitigate against severe saltwater intrusion in the Mekong Delta and drought in the South Central Region and the Central Highlands and environmental pollution; and traffic bottlenecks in cities and large urban localities. Moreover, the committee stated its wish that annual, mid-term and five-year socio-economic development plans must not conflict with the decisions of the 12th National Congress and should be suited to the special conditions of each locality and sector. Another suggestion the plenum made was creating action programmes to implement party-state policies and guidelines. The 2nd Plenum reached consensus on a list of nominees for State agencies to be proposed to the 11th Session, which included picking nominees for the offices of President, Prime Minister and Chair of the National Assembly.[26] " - you seem to be giving a lot of details which could probably be summarised better. this is admittedly difficult since the systemic bias of wikipedia dictates most readers will need a lot of things contextualising, but on the other hand the level of detail is making my eyes glaze over and probably is a factor in this article not picking up more reviews. maybe WP:DETAIL is helpful. This article is 12740 words and WP:CANYOUREADTHIS suggests "At 10,000 words it may be beneficial to move some sections to other articles and replace them with summaries per Wikipedia:Summary style"
- The question is really how, because I don't feel it is that easy. It's already shortened a bit.
- As for WP:DETAIL the problem here is that none of the plenary sessions could be anything other than a stub on their own, which makes it a bit more difficult. Alas, also due to the great centralisation of powers in the CPV Central Committee it deals with everything, which makes it also a bit more difficult to summarise.
  replied on this issue below Mujinga (talk) 10:09, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not done, but clarified what nomination list actually is and why it is important coming fast on the heels of the above point, "Nguyễn Phú Trọng noted that based on the voting results at the plenum, the Politburo would continue to refine the nomination list before submitting it to the National Assembly.[26] " does not seem worth including, unless I've missed something
So I've got to the end of the 2nd plenary and since there are 15 total, I think I'll stop here for a break and to discuss with TheUzbek the level of detail. Mujinga (talk) 14:59, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, thanks for reviewing. I've replied :)
As for WP:DETAIL, I'm very interested in finding a way that works. This is the first of its kind nominated to FL so I'm hoping this one will function as a model of sorts for these kinds of articles. However, it is not usual for a central committee of a ruling communist party to convene for so many meetings. The Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party convenes for seven in five years. When that is said I think it is difficult to move information from this article to other articles due to the role of the Central Committee in the Vietnamese communist system. TheUzbek (talk) 18:13, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK so you have obviously put a lot of work into this, so sorry to be negative, I'm going to oppose for now.

I'm interested, were you using other articles as a guide? I've had a look around and don't see this level on detail in for example 20th National Congress of the Chinese Communist Party and I don't see any FAs in this style. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it just means we need to get the style right going forward and that might take some time.

I'm concerned about level of detail and your replies don't really persuade me that the current level is necessary in the article, which could be reframed into a list of plentary sessions for example. We are at FAC not FLC however. I see in the GOCE copy edit Voorts made some helpful comments about how you are giving a lot of detail without saying what actually happened and I don't think you have taken that fully on board. Yes it's hard to trim, but it still needs doing. It prob would have been a good idea to take this to Wikipedia:Peer review before coming here. You also said to Voorts "I'll begin work on expanding the "Analysis, interpretations and legacy" section" then put that bit into the 1st plenary section and didn't expand it.

I was at first concentrating on a prose review, and whilst I'd say the prose does need more work to now I'm seeing the issues as more structural, so my oppose is based on criteria 2b and 4.

I was hoping you would start to chop the article down a bit when I made my previous comments, instead some of your replies such as "none of the plenary sessions could be anything other than a stub on their own" and "Some of them are very important articles, such as the Charter of the Communist Party of Vietnam, which is a must article which English WP is currently missing" suggest to me that perhaps you see the history of the Communist Party of Vietnam as more important than wikipedia style guidelines, when in fact they're both important on wikipedia. There's no issue at all with each plenary being a stub (or making a list of plenaries) and this reformulated article being an overview (although I appreciate this may take some time). I hope these comments make sense and can be taken constructively.
Also as a side topic, going forwards could you reply below each of my comments and sign (which you have partly done), rather than writing done at the beginning of a comment I made? Thanks, Mujinga (talk) 10:05, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I hope I can persuade you otherwise.
The 20th National Congress of the Chinese Communist Party article is about a specific event, and not a whole load of meetings. To compare this article to that one is misleading and shows a lack of understanding of the topic at hand. As I said, I could not use any articles as a guide since there is no comparative article on English Wikipedia, which makes it important that you work with me instead of opposing :)

I might have written misleadingly, I have no problems cutting the article, but I would prefer that we go through the whole article together and then cut (it would be easier that way I presume)

"reframed into a list of plentary sessions for example" Again, it seems you misunderstand the topic at hand and it would fail to show the importance of the subject at hand.

"Yes it's hard to trim" - again, I'm for trimming!

"Analysis, interpretations and legacy" the reason I removed it was that I didn't find enough text to make that good, so I instead merged the analysis part into the plenum articles wherever I got relevant commentaries. So I did expand analysis and commentary, but added it to the main article instead of having separate sections.

"none of the plenary sessions could be anything other than a stub on their own" , but this is sadly true. Vietnam is non-transparent about its decision-making process. Again, I feel you show a lack of comprehension of the subject. They would not be anything more than stubs, and that's a fact. There are always exceptions to these rules, such as the 8th Session of the Central Committee of the League of Communists of Serbia, an article devoted to a specific plenum which has gotten a whole lot of attention, but none of these have. That's a fact, sadly.

"Charter of the Communist Party of Vietnam, which is a must article which English WP is currently missing" suggests to me that perhaps you see the history of the Communist Party of Vietnam" . I honestly don't understand how you reached that conclusion. Red links might not always be good, but some red links are, I think necessary, due to the article's weight. If Mao Zedong didn't have an article here on WP I would assume the correct step was to have that link because the topic in itself is clearly notable. Other links, of course, are not and can be removed since they are not essential to understanding the topic at hand. TO understand the Vietnamese political system, the Charter is essential.

"There's no issue at all with each plenary being a stub (or making a list of plenaries) and this reformulated article being an overview (although I appreciate this may take some time). I hope these comments make sense and can be taken constructively." The reason is, I think, that the article and Wikipedia's rendering of the subject would be worse for it.

Again, I want to reduce both the article length and improve it, and I've shown willingness to do it so I hope you return back to reviewing it Mujinga!

TheUzbek (talk) 10:43, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Last point, I feel that I've shown that I'm positive about splitting up articles when it is both necessary and best for the topic at hand. I've split up the article 12th Central Committee of the Communist Party of Vietnam from one article to three presently: this one, Members of the 12th Central Committee of the Communist Party of Vietnam and Alternates of the 12th Central Committee of the Communist Party of Vietnam. The last one, the alternates, nearly failed FL since a reviewer wanted me to merge the article into the "Members" one (and I refused to merge). I'm also planning to make an article on "Apparatus of the 12th Central Committee of the Communist Party of Vietnam" and philosophying about creating an article entitled "Decisions of the 12th Central Committee of the Communist Party of Vietnam". That means I should not be interpreted as a user who is against splitting articles. In fact, my edit history proves that I'm generally very positive towards such notions if I feel that it would improve Wikipedia's coverage of the subject. I am, however, against splitting up articles when I know the coverage would become worse, and not better. And I hope, Mujinga, that you accept that I know more about this topic than you.

So let's get back to trimming the article and shorten it instead of this nonsense about splitting it up! TheUzbek (talk) 10:54, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
NB: I have now cut the article by 3,625 characters, and I will continue to trim the article in accordance with Mujinga!'s suggestions. --TheUzbek (talk) 12:30, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the detailed response, unfortunately we are still at an impasse because the alleged importance of things does not mean they cannot be a stub on wikipedia and FAC isn't really for trimming article in my opinion, it's more about is this article suitable for the frontpage, yes or no. I'm quite aware 20th National Congress of the Chinese Communist Party is differernt, but I'm trying to discuss with you the model to use - if you've started from scratch in making this page, then my suggestion would be to reframe it. This is also what Voorts was saying, in my opinion. I'm happy to stop here and see what other reviewers say, my advice would still be to withdraw and take this to peer review before heading back here. Mujinga (talk) 13:28, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What you are saying does not really make any sense. You are saying a) you should create stubs and b) there might not be enough content to have this article. Make up your mind and keep reviewing. This is nonsense. I can add more information on "regulations on the enforcement of the Party's Charter and the regulations on party inspection, supervision and discipline", and all those other documents... I have to admit I skimmed his comments to fast, and should have more detailed description of them. I will now do that; that will be a quick fix! But that goes against your main point of reducing the size and the other argument of having this article in the first place. TheUzbek (talk) 14:17, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose from Airship

I was reading through the article, when I noticed that numerous sentences cited one source. I decided to do a singular spotcheck, because such paragraphs are prone to copyright issues, especially WP:CLOP. Unfortunately, that is exactly what I found. See below:

Wikipedia article (paragraph breaks for comparison)	Source^[1]
"The 12th CC informed the Politburo that the mid-term State finance-budget and mid-term public investment plans needed further refinement before being submitted to the 11th Session. It emphasised the importance of investing in agriculture, farmers and rural areas; revamping the state administration and procedures; and strengthening the business climate. Other concerns aired included high government overspending; bad public debt; the size of the public debt amid volatilities seen in the global financial market; climate change policies to mitigate against severe saltwater intrusion in the Mekong Delta and drought in the South Central Region and the Central Highlands and environmental pollution; and traffic bottlenecks in cities and large urban localities. Moreover, the committee stated its wish that annual, mid-term and five-year socio-economic development plans must not conflict with the decisions of the 12th National Congress and should be suited to the special conditions of each locality and sector. Another suggestion the plenum made was creating action programmes to implement party-state policies and guidelines."	"It pressed forward refining the mid-term State finance-budget plan and the mid-term public investment plan to submit to the 14th NA for consideration. According to Party General Secretary Trong, participants underscored the need to prioritise investment in agriculture, farmers and rural areas; overhaul the public administration sector and administrative procedures; and improve business environment. Other concerns include dealing with high budget overspending, bad and public debts amid the volatilities in the global financial-monetary markets, mitigating the adverse impacts of climate change that has led to severe saltwater intrusion in the Mekong Delta and drought in the south central region and the Central Highlands, and environment pollution and traffic congestion in cities and major urban areas. Building and realising the five-year public investment scheme will present a panorama of public projects and State budget balance between 2016-2020, they said. The Committee requested that annual, mid-term and five-year socio-economic development plans must be in line with the guidelines and viewpoints of the 12th National Party Congress, as well as the conditions of each locality and sector. It also urged developing action programmes for implementing the policies and the guidelines of the Party and the State, as well as making revisions if necessary."

This extent of close paraphrasing is unacceptable. I oppose and advise the nominator to firstly withdraw, and then to recheck the entire article's text-source integrity. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:28, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I will withdraw and work more closely on it. Fair point! TheUzbek (talk) 21:36, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

... How do you withdraw? TheUzbek (talk) 21:36, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@FAC coordinators: see the above ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:45, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also TheUzbek I would recommend taking this through the GA process first. FAC can be harsh, so it's important to be as prepared as possible. A good reviewer would have caught this at GAN. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:47, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks AirshipJungleman29, that's very on the ball of you. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:56, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Peer Review would also help, and you'd be eligible to try the FAC mentoring scheme. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:01, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ [1]

Closing note: This candidate has been withdrawn, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. FrB.TG (talk) 21:53, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

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