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March 2

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Category:One-Day International Tournaments

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was rename to One-day international cricket competitions. Syrthiss 22:53, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Overcategorization, unless there is a clear constituency for organizing events by scope and length.- choster 22:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]


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Category:Controversial people

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The result of the debate was delete. Syrthiss 22:49, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as inherently vague and POV. We've previously deleted categories for "controversial" books and films; this probably has less reason to exist, lest we see every article on a politician dumped in here... Postdlf 15:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see nothing 'vague' about this category. Few would argue that people like Osama bin Laden, George W. Bush, Louis Farrakhan, and Fred Phelps (just to name a few of the people listed) can't all be legitimately tagged as controvercial public figures. News, and mass media in general, regularly adds the "controvercial" stamp to specific names in the public eye — therefore, again, I see nothing "vague" about the category. Please do not delete this. Dtowng 16:30, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What about Prince? Tom Cruise? Courtney Love? You could argue that our fascination with celebrity lives doesn't necessarily equal controversy. This category has no set criteria and there's no rhyme or reason to the people who are listed in it. Rhobite 15:00, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, inherently POV. I am mostly concerned that people will get added to this list who just aren't so clearly controversial. There's no established objective way to determine if the person belongs in the category or not. While it may be clear for Bush and bin Laden, it won't be so clear for others. Paris Hilton, for example. She's not controversial, she's just slutty and stupid. --Yamla 16:50, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The place for arguments about who belongs on this is on the discussion page. That disputes might arise is no reason to delete the legitimate information. This category is a good starting point for someone researching controversial people. pat8722 03:39, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't delete. There are some people who HAVE made names for themselves on controversy. And I would say that Paris Hilton, with her public antics & much publicized sex tape IS controversial! - Nwdavis 17:05, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: I could see a category for people who go out of their way to be controversial but I can't think of anything reasonable to call it. BTW is Wikipedia controversial topics an administrative category? If not, shouldn't it be deleted for the same reason? --JeffW 17:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Nonsense - POV becuase someone has to "decide" if someone really is POV. KILO-LIMA 18:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Previous mistakes are not reason to make one again. The category "Controversies" was debated and not deleted. This should be kept for same reasons. pat8722 03:39, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:North Dakota Private Schools to Category:Private schools in North Dakota

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The result of the debate was rename. Syrthiss 22:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This name format is more in line with its siblings in Category:Private schools in the United States (and almost all of Category:Academic institutions), and the present capitalization not standard either. - choster 15:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]


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Category:SPHL

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The result of the debate was delete both. Syrthiss 22:44, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Duplicates Category:Southern Professional Hockey League. JonHarder 15:19, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]


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Category:Israeli Military Industries

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The result of the debate was delete. Syrthiss 22:44, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category is empty, was prodded; I removed the prod tag and posted it here instead. I don't know the history or how or when it was emptied. Prodder's stated reason was "I don't think an arms manufacturer company really needs its own category. And as for israeli defence industries in general: there is an own category for this (Category:Defense companies of Israel)" Thatcher131 12:26, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]


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Category:North Dakota Private Scools

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The result of the debate was speedy delete. Syrthiss 22:40, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Obvious misspelling and has been replaced by Category:North Dakota Private Schools. --MatthewUND(talk) 09:21, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]


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Orphaned Chinese categories

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The result of the debate was delete. Syrthiss 22:30, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Statement by semi-closing admin - Based on User:Instantnood's polls from last year here, it seems that there is no clear historical consensus for using 'mainland China' instead of 'PRC' in the category names. I don't really see the reason to keep these as they exist now, other than history wrangling edit wars between User:SchmuckyTheCat and User:Instantnood like this...considering that per the software limitations, histories of categories are often discarded when they are renamed. However, I am loathe to WP:IAR and just close this by fiat...and declaring no consensus (which is how I view it atm) will suspend it in limbo again I'm afraid.

I propose keeping whatever talk pages as exist, migrating whatever articles to the PRC categories, and closing this discussion. If at some future time a clear consensus emerges to prefer mainland over PRC, the categories can be recreated. Does that sound reasonable? I'm going to leave this /unresolved for another couple days for responses to this... please make the responses in the appropriate category below. --Syrthiss 22:29, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with proposal

  1. I nominated them to be deleted, we don't keep POV content forks around for articles and we shouldn't do it for categories. SchmuckyTheCat 23:40, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Let's get something out in the open: Instantnood wants to USE these categories, either now or in the future. This has no consensus. That there is no corollary consensus to delete these POV forked categories shouldn't even be a discussion. Forked content goes away or redirects, it doesn't need consensus to delete once it's been determined that it shouldn't be there in the first place.
    If it was just a matter of creating category redirects, I wouldn't care. But look at what 'nood actually wants: only those that are de-populated "at the time of nomination" and only "for the time being". So what happens is, these categories get cleaned out regularly (no, not always by me), and then after some time some new user unknowingly uses them or some bot goes awry and populates them. Then what happens when someone tries to move articles to the correct parent categories? It turns into the classic Instantnood edit war where he uses phrases like the below "there is no consensus to remove this article from the category" without acknowledging the existing consensus that the category shouldn't really exist in the first place.
    Sorry, I wanted to make myself clear. In my proposal above, the deletion of the mainland categories is implied. It sounded like you might not have caught that from my text (and I hadn't made it explicit), and I wanted to make sure we were on the same page. If I misread, I apologize (and blame the limitations of plain text). ;) --Syrthiss 13:34, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Understood, it's an argument to why 'Nood's reasoning below is bad for the project. SchmuckyTheCat 17:07, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Agree with proposal As an historian whose opinion of the People's Republic of China is very close to neutral, I find the category "mainland China" to be an interesting enigma. At first blush, unaware of the conflict between these users, I couldn't decide if its creator supported the PRC (and this nomenclature was a method of expressing the "one-China" policy) or if the creator wished to deny or denigrate the existence of the PRC. Examining the ArbCom record, it appears the latter is more likely. In any event, "mainland China" is a nebulous term, fraught with interpretive difficulties. The PRC is the name by which the nation currently recognizes itself, and is the name by which the region is most easily recognized. Wikipedia strives for NPOV, and also for user-friendliness and clarity: a consensus exists to use PRC for these reasons. As Syrthiss suggests, this consensus may change, at which point, an alternative category scheme may be recreated. Until then, his proposed closing best meets the spirit of consensus and the needs of WP's readers. The forum for Instantnood to raise his concerns about the flawed nature of previous discussions would be an RfC or in mediation, not this CfD. Xoloz 00:49, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Tentative agree. Having (a) only a layman's knowledge about the PRC/ROC(Taiwan) issue; but (b) knowing that there is this distinction, I'd lean towards an "X of the People's Republic of China" and "X of the Republic of China (Taiwan)" solution. If someone unaware of the distinction consults an encyclopedia such as Wikipedia, seeing "mainland China" may lead them to assume that Taiwan is generally or normally considered to be "offshore China" or the like. (That maybe the PRC government's position, but is it anyone else's position?)  Hope that helps somehow, David Kernow 05:11, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    1. The "Free China" ("Offshore China"?) view is also the position of the blue camp in Taiwan... and a surprising number of Mainland Chinese people I've seen online who appear to loathe the communists with all their being, and want the Kuomintang of Free China to liberate Mainland China. The issue isn't quite so black-and-white (or, in this particular case, red-and-green)... -- ran (talk) 18:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Agree with proposal. --Kbdank71 13:47, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree with proposal

  1. Instantnood – As presented in the previous ArbCom case by third party, there was serious problem, including sockpuppets, when those polls were conducted, combined with the fact that many votes were from those who're not familiar with the subject matter. There is no clear consensus to kill all these categories either, just that user:SchmuckyTheCat depopulate them when community consensus did not exist. Some of these categories were not empty by the time of this round of nomination by user:SchmuckyTheCat. Another ArbCom case was, though in my opinion, inappropriately, opened recently. These categories are probably relevant. My suggestion remains, i.e.: Keep their edit history, protect them, and, only for those which are already empty with no subcategory or article as at the time of this nomination, tag them with {{category redirect}} (pointing to the corresponding parent categories, i.e., the ones for the PRC) for the time being. — 22:45, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
    Soft redirects are probably desirable, to avoid recreation (aren't they patrolled?). But let's be specific: All right, Instanood, which of them were "already empty with no subcategory or article as at the time of this nomination"? That's difficult to tell retrospectively.Septentrionalis 00:43, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    All of them, except the final two for politics and laws, were empty at the time of this nomination. The economy category was empty too, although some articles were categorised to it by AWB-assisted edits after the nomination. Those article are all already settled. — Instantnood 10:31, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    And particularly, why would law and politics, which are distinctly political/governmental topics, not be named according to the official name of the political entity, isn't that what the naming conventions say to do? So why argue to keep these? SchmuckyTheCat 17:07, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Those topics are related to part of the state. They're not related to the entirety of the state. And.. please be reminded the term mainland China is in no way unofficial. — Instantnood 17:52, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Make them all category redirects I presume somebody sweeps these every so often; if not, I can put them on my (long) watchlist and will try to remember to do so. This will protect against good-faith recreation by someone inventing a category. Saving edit history is a minor advantage, but real. Law and politics of the PRC, since they are specifically of the institution so called, should join the others. Septentrionalis 19:08, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Not really. There are plenty of political issues that are related generally to mainland China, but not to the rest of the People's Republic of China. Same for legal matters, that most except a few laws apply and are applicable only in mainland China. — Instantnood 19:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Umbrella nomination. These are orphans and have been for at least six months, if not longer since many were made in preparation for an aborted mass rename a year ago. every one of them has properly titled cat at "Blah of the People's Republic of China". One or two might have been kept for their histories in an arbcom dispute that ended 3 months ago. strangely, some of them are category redirects to their own parent categories. SchmuckyTheCat 08:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • All these categories, except category:elections in China were depopulated by user:SchmuckyTheCat rather than "orphaned". Some of these categories, in fact, do have some content at the time of user:SchmuckyTheCat's nomination. Keep their edit history, protect them, and, (only) for those which are already empty with no subcategory or article as at the time of this nomination, tag them with {{category redirect}} (pointing to the corresponding parent categories, i.e., the ones for the PRC) for the time being. — Instantnood 15:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC) (modified 18:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC), 19:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC))[reply]
I wouldn't exactly call moving articles to the more appropriate category as "depopulating". There are no appropriate sub-categories, if articles or sub-cats exist in these then the obvious fix is to move them to the corresponding PRC category. There is absolutely no purpose in keeping and protecting them. And, your "for the time being" suggests you plan to use them in the future - a scary thought. If anyone thinks redirecting them is a good idea, they obviously shouldn't be in any parent category. SchmuckyTheCat 20:07, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Note the second: Wikipedia:Protection policy has no basis to protect these if kept, it's almost a textbook case of when not to protect something. SchmuckyTheCat 07:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]


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Buildings and structures

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The result of the debate was rename all. Syrthiss 21:56, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rename with standard nomenclature - EurekaLott 07:42, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]


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Category:Tram transport in China

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The result of the debate was speedy (tho not so speedy apparently). Syrthiss 21:55, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Has been empty since creation (30 Nov 2004) Blue520 07:36, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]


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Category: Temporary page

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The result of the debate was delete. Syrthiss 21:53, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Looks like testing to me. Speediable? Note also the related article Metal music/temp JonHarder 04:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]


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Category:People by race or ethnicity to Category:People by ethnic or national origin

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The result of the debate was no consensus - 2 D 2 R (not to be confused with R2d2). Syrthiss 21:51, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

rename. first the controversial/obsolescent term 'race' is unnecessary - in this context the term 'ethnic origin' denotes the same meaning. second, what divides national and ethnic origins is too fuzzy a line so i suggest merging the two - a merger for the two separate cats Category:American people by ethnicity and Category:American people by national origin, as well as a renaming for sub-categories here would be in order (which i ll do subsequently) Mayumashu 04:12, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • I would recommend to delete this parent category and move its subcategories into respective subcategories of Category:People by nationality. If kept, I predict a parallel structure will grow over time and maintenance would get harder. Adding "national origin" would speed up this tendency, IMHO.
An OT: classifying people by a country citizenship is almost always clear and uncontroversial. Classifying by ethnicity and race is able to generate lot of warring and should be used only when it is explicitly confirmed as relevant for the person by sources. Just slapping one or even more of ethnicities/races/origins to everyone is against principles of WP. Pavel Vozenilek 20:54, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • rename: I'm uncomfortable with labelling someone by their ethnicity, but grouping people in this way is done all the time and is usually meant in a positive way to highlight the achievements of a group. And merging the category into People by nationality won't work. What is the respective subcategory of African American? --JeffW 21:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename; classifying is not inherently problematic -- what makes the current hierarchy here so problematic is that it mixes two different ideas: ethnicity and national origin, each of which is ambiguous.
    • Was someone born in Brussels prior to Belgian independence a Belgian by national origin? What about someone born in British Mandate Palestine, is he/she by national origin British, Palestinian, Israeli -- or does that depend on his/her ethnicity? You can see that by national origin things get murky (citizenship as articulated by Pavel Vozenilek may be a decent proxy in recent times, but people of minority ethnic groups may resent being labeled a citizen of the majoritarian regime: Albert Einstein was a citizen of Nazi Germany until the Nuremburg laws stripped his citizenship, and how useful is it to categorize Kurdish people as Turkish?; certain other problems result in using these labels anachronisticly: Was Julius Caesar Italian? or was Jesus Roman (Who ruled the land in the 1st century AD), Israeli (Nazareth's within its 1948 borders) or Palestinian (Bethlehem is in the Palestinian Authority)?).
    • Ethnicity is no better. Is there such a thing as a Belgian, Swiss, or American ethnicity? How much ethnicity does one have to have to be included: Bruce Lee, apparently one-quarter German, is categorized as a German-American. Is 1/4 the limit? Are we even going to venture there? I hope not. Another example might suffice: A Jewish person from Germany who emigrates to the USA as a refugee from the Nazis is categorized how? see Albert Einstein (Categorized as a German-American) or Henry Kissinger (not). Carlossuarez46 23:21, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think the criteria should be how the people identify themselves. You can't argue that there aren't people who identify themselves as African Americans, even though objectively they all have some amount of European/white/whatever blood in them. If someone can find a source where Bruce Lee thinks of himself as a German American then put him in the category, otherwise boot him out. --JeffW 23:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • <rant>This is why all these ethno-vanity categories should just be deleted and replaced with annotated, referenced lists. This information is typically of highly trivial import to an understanding of the subject (I wonder how often Bruce Lee's "German-American" heritage is discussed even by many book-length biographies), is often unverified, and proliferates virally as each ethnic group claims as many role models and accomplishments for itself as possible. Unfortunately I am in the minority on this, which is why so much of our category system for people is simply an exercise in contemporary identity politics.</rant> Postdlf 20:59, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]


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Indigenous peoples in Sth Am country

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The result of the debate was rename all. Syrthiss 21:48, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In keeping with the form adopted for Indigenous peoples in <country> categories, the category name ought to say in rather than of, so as not to necessarily imply membership of the state. See for eg Category:Indigenous peoples in the United States, Category:Aboriginal peoples in Canada, etc.--cjllw | TALK 03:59, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]


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Category:News Agencies to Category:News agencies

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The result of the debate was rename as proposed. —akghetto talk 05:57, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agencies should not be capitalized, neh? KramarDanIkabu 00:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Transport in Jerusalem

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The result of the debate was delete. —akghetto talk 08:49, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Was moved to Category:Transportation in Jerusalem, no need for old category anymore. The reason was that Transportation in X is standard for all such categories. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 18:18, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: Category:Transportation by country uses both "transportation" (most of the articles) and "transport" (several dozens of articles). Pavel Vozenilek 20:00, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Repopulate original category. The claim that transportation is standard is completely false. Both have exactly equal legitimacy in line with Wikipedia's language policy. CalJW 01:50, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ynhockey, there's no required standard here. As long as the word order is relatively consistent, the category name can be whatever is more consistent with usage in the country in question. We have many categories where a national language difference is reflected in the category name. I'm not necessarily going to cast a vote right away, but since your user page says you're in Israel, I'd like an answer to this question, and will vote based on that: which term, "transport" or "transportation", would be considered more normative in Israel? Bearcat 09:48, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Science & technology magazines to Category:Science and technology magazines

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The result of the debate was rename. —akghetto talk 08:48, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ampersand (&) should be replaced with and. jareha 19:34, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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