User talk:Wobble/archive10

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Thanks

Thanks for doing that! Badgerpatrol 01:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

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Thought you'd find this interesting

I know it's the telegraph, but here's a link to the actual study for you next time your on here. [4]

Btw, theres also studies on similar findings involving the influence from pre-sapien species on modern humans in Asia and Australasia. You should check em when u get a chance, (i'm not gloating here) I told you the patterns were sudden shifts between Europe, Asia, Africa and Australia/New Guinea and were not wholly accounted for by out-of-africa theory. The shifts between the areas shows distinct patterns and is also alot more sudden and drastic then between others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.157.104.39 (talk) 07:18, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Also:

Neanderthal findings in Abrigo do Lagar Velho, Portugal of 24,500 BP, featuring admixtures with early modern humans, have been published. However, the paleontological analysis of modern human emergence in Europe has been shifting from considerations of the Neanderthals to assessments of the biology and chronology of the earliest modern humans in western Eurasia. This focus, involving morphologically modern humans before 28,000 BP shows accumulating evidence that they present a variable mosaic of derived modern human, archaic human, and Neanderthal features.

I have never denied that it is possible that there is a small neanderthal ancestry for some modern humans. All I have said is that the dominant model for modern human origins is that of the RAO model. So there's no point in "gloating". Besides there is no conclusive proof one way or the other. I suspect that people will be arguing about this for a very long time. There is absolutely no reason why modern humans should not have reproduced with Neanderthals. The discussion is really whether the product of any such unions were particularly viable themselves. A lack of viability would produce offspring tat are less reproductively successful than their non-hybrid counterparts. Something called outbreeding depression I believe. Many RAO supporters now talk in terms of "mostly out of Africa", and many "multiregionalists" talk in terms of several out of Africa migrations wit continuous mixing between the different hominid groups. There is some sort of consensus emerging that some modern human ancestry may be from archaics, but that this is a relatively small fraction. Still there are problems with claiming that all observed differences are due to archaic DNA, as genomics is complex and not fully understood. Alun 08:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

True true, you make a good point. Thanks for NOT keeping most of my edits btw, ?, peace out....

Well many of your edits of today were perfectly OK, but given your history of abuse, particularly racist abuse of Wikipedia editors (irrespective of the vicious and vitriolic personal abuse I have had to suffer from you, including vandalism of my talk page and personal comments about my family, I have had to resort to having a blank user page), your inclusion of racist material into Wikipedia articles and your inveterate POV pushing, you have been banned from editing Wikipedia, and as such your edits are all subject to reversion, like it or not. Alun 19:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Btw Neanderthal ancestry isn't in just some modern humans, but the links show that its in some amount in all Europeans. Homo Erectus and its sub-groups were absorbed in Asia in some amount, and some unknown archaic hominid in West, Central and South Africans. All I'm saying bro is that the pattern in differences, especially in Eurasians is either explained from the natural selection of modern humans in these areas and/or thru absorbtion of archaic hominids which had alot longer time in these areas to have adaptation to the climate (Example: Pale skin adapted to absorb UV ? But why then is it only northern European populations that have the pale skin and other arctic groups who have inhabited the areas just as long, like Siberians, Eskimos and others all have darker skin ? And why did they adapt the short stature for cold climates, but Paleolithic and other man in Europe remained tall ?) Natural selection/environmental adaptation, absorbtion of archaic hominids, sexual selection, founder populations, genetic drift ALL played roles in shaping the great patterned (not random) genetic and physical variation u see in humans today

Ya ya, so check this link and the part in episode about the lady talking about adaptation in cold environments common around non European arctic persons, later:

[5] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.157.104.58 (talk) 02:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Spencer Wells makes some good points, he recognizes distinct differences but chooses to focus on that which unites humans, our diversity being part of it and including saving indigenous cultures: [6] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.94.174 (talk) 08:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Choice?

Alun, While I enjoyed your contribution to the 'Francis Crick was a druggie' (sic) debate, the choice over Rosalind Franklin and the Discovery of The Structure of DNA is relatively more important, so rather than just reverting - let's have a considered discussion over their relative merits? It's GOOD to have you back as YOU can takeover defending REF from 'real' vandalism, not mine! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nitramrekcap (talk • contribs)

RFC

Alun, I haven't been following the goings on at Rosalind Franklin, and I can't really tell what the dispute is about. Is it just over which template to include on the article? If that's the case, I'd be happy to put in my opinion, but there hasn't been any discussion over the merits of the dispute (at least on the Franklin talk page). Obviously, if the recent repeated reversions are IPs of Nitramrekcap, that's not good, but the situation could hopefully be de-escalated with more discussion, and it seems like a pretty minor dispute in the scheme of things. If it's about more than just this, then a summary of your take on things (with relevant diff links, preferably) would help me sort out the issues at stake (and that would be something you'd have to compile for an RFC, anyhow).--ragesoss 23:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure about that. Martin is a pest and a world-class pain in the bum. But, however misguided, I think he does usually attempt to edit in "good faith" (or at least what he takes good faith to be), despite his recent shenanigans with templates and my subsequent at-the-end-of-my-tether response to him on his talk. I'm not sure if his multiple socks are actually formed with malicious design or are rather merely a function of his incompetence and total inability to grasp even the rudiments of Wikipedia. But, if he has been moving into a malign use of socks in content disputes/3rr situations then that would constitute a more serious breach. I do fully sympathise however- he is almost uniformly patronising and greatly annoying...but sadly I'm not too sure that is grounds for an RfC.... Badgerpatrol 17:51, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Invitation to vote

You as someone who participated in the editing of English people article might be interested in taking part in this discussion. Feel free to state your opinion. M.V.E.i. 16:27, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

favor?

i know you have avoided getting involved in the NOR debate, but I really could use your help with one thing. I am starting to lose patience with WAS 4.250, which is a bad thing. Am I misinterpreting him? Am I being unfair? I would appreciate it if you would comment on this exchange. Slrubenstein | Talk 02:51, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

English people

"Actually I thought this observation was a good example that we could use in the article. It was relevant to the topic we were discussing and pertinent to the article. Alun 09:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)"

Thanks. I think it's a classic case of how facts can sometimes get completely twisted and mis-reported by the media. (89.241.236.12 17:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC))

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suggestion

Thanks by the way for your constructive comments at Wikipedia talk: No original research - I hope you wil check in from time to time.

I see you have been doing a lot of work at the Race article, and I think the major weakness is still the section on molecular genetics. I know you have been owrking on this in your sandbox and are not ready perhaps to change this section of the race article. I have a suggestion: move all the material on mtDNA, Y haplotypes, and clusters to the article, Molecular genetics and work on it there. When you are satisfied that the molecular genetics article is good (current, thorough, and clear), then cut and paste from it what should go into the race article, and re-write as necessary so it fits in the new context. I am wondering that this may be a better procedure (literally, more productive) for you, and in the process you will be improving two articles, not just one. Just an idea. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:59, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Everything you wrote sounds good. My main point is that it looks like it would be easier for you to start with a larger/more general article and then select from that what to put in the "race" article. let me know what you think of those books - I have the reader I have mentioned several times, but have not had time to read any of it. I am not sure if all those books i mentioned are in print but i have discovered (for what it is worth) that Amazon.com in the UK does not offer nearly the selection as Amazon.com in the US. Maybe you can get you runiversity library to purchase some of the books! Slrubenstein | Talk 13:01, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

more help needed

Could you go back to the talk for NOR here and comment on this and the next two sections (i.e. the last few sections of the talk page? We keep going in circles but these three sections are all at the heart of the matter and I think your informed and experienced comments will be very valuable. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 10:01, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

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hello

• Hi Alun, just giving a friendly hello since it's been a while. I noticed some of your comments on User:Slrubenstein's Talk page and I like the approach you guys have taken with the 'Race' article (much more neutral and referenced on various topics since the last time I read it, although it is quite long). I am going to be editing on here slightly more since I have alot mroe time this year to help edit on Wiki, though I 'm still very busy with my research thesis. I also wanted to make you aware that I found out not only who 'Eoganan' was, but that I knew him (an 'acquaintance' of mine from my high school days). Trust me, he has some very extremist viewpoints on many issues that you have no idea about (the term "loner" doesn't even come close to describing him) but apparently his borderline-insane behaviour on Wikipedia which as you know was nearly connected to myself, was the least of my problems. After taking a summer course at Brock University, about 20 min from my hometown, I ran into him and found out he was also responsible for hacking into my PC last spring and responsible for it crashing (but it did force me to buy my very first laptop, so I'm not complaining now, lol). Supposedly he 'accidentally' forwarded an e-mail which contained some virus he knew nothing about. Anyways, I have noticed that IP's associated with him still appear on here sporadically, so I'll keep an eye out for this abrasive individual. Anyway, I hope all is well, keep up the good edits. Ciao. Epf 13:08, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

3RR

• Hey Alun, yes indeed you are correct and I should of just let it go. Clearly there was no need or basis for Ramdrake to re-vert to the much less neutral and lesssupported version of the other user (the user had consistently re-worded references he had entered to support his own statements, which also were not matched whatsoever by the content of the sources themselves). If Ramdrake was really upholding the policy, he would have left the article as is. I will drop it though for now and wait another 24 hours before I make another edit/re-vert at that specific article. Anyways, how are things with you ? Epf 15:35, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• Alun I would hardly call my last edit 'tendentious', as you can see for yourself, but I know you're taking advantage of the fact I can't re-vert till tomorrow (part of the rules, I'm not complaining). I have however explained my case extensively and persistently on the Talk:Ethnic group page and at User talk:Slrubenstein on this matter for the past couple of days. Unless someone (hint, hint) rolls back to my more verified and NPOV version, I suppose I will have to wait until tomorrow to correct the current biased version (which in fact is very evident of tendentious edits by Slrubenstein). Ciao. Epf 17:25, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

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R&I – a new approach

R&I has been protected for a breather while we try to form some consensus as to the direction. In the interim we have set up a “sandbox” at: User:Moonriddengirl/Race and intelligence/backgound. Moonriddengirl is a neutral admin who has set up the space where we can work on the text section by section; this allows us to have a talk page for the micro project. So far JJJamal, Futurebird and I have made suggested changes with additions in bold and deletions in strikeout. This section and its talk page is an experiment in trying to come together as a group on a focused area. If it works we’d like to approach Guy, the admin who has protected the page, to insert our work-product into the protected article and then take on another section. I would really like to get your feedback on this so that we can demonstrate a consensus. Thanks. --Kevin Murray 19:21, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Savignac

Don't waste too much time fighting with this one, I think he/she just likes to argue... I mean, just look at my talk page... futurebird 17:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

And what is pushing the "purity" of the "white race" if not snobbery and racism? Your comment displays a breathtaking double standard. Alun 06:31, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

November 2007

Please stop. If you continue to blank out or delete portions of page content, templates or other materials from Wikipedia, as you did to Talk:Race debate, you will be blocked from editing. Rjd0060 06:34, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

My response on User talk:Rjd0060: What are you talking about? Did you actually read the section I removed from Talk:Race debate? I suspect not, it was a rambling essay soapboxing the personal theories of an editor why has consistently made personal attacks against other editors and racist comments on talk pages. I was merely following the rule that wikipedia is not a soapbox. For doing this I get warned by you? I'm just really angry now, possibly your warn was not a mistake and you knew exactly what you were doing? You think personal attacks and soapboxing on talk pages are OK? Alun 06:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on African diaspora. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. Rjd0060 06:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I think SOAP is referring to articles themselves, not the talk pages. Anyhow, I didn't see the personal attacks. But it is clear that you removed more than just personal attacks. Also, per an arbcom ruling (which Im sorry I cannot locate at the moment) removing personal attacks is a touchy subject. If you really feel that you are being personally attacked, or another users is attacking somebody, feel free to report them. Please do not remove comments just because you do not agree with them, unless of course they do blatantly violate some policy. I do however, as an un-biased third party, see an edit war going on that you are directly involved with. - Rjd0060 06:43, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

You don't appear to be unbiased to me, you seem to be perfectly happy to let people introduce irrelevant racist essays into talk pages, but give warnings to good faith editors who think talk pages are for discussing articles, rather than making irrelevant and racist personal statements. Have you read the talk page guidelines recently? Alun 06:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

That is certainly your opinion, which you are entitled to. But I will say I am not going to involve myslef any further in this, other than remind you both not to violate WP policies such as 3RR. - Rjd0060 06:50, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Wobble/Alun (whatever): Perhaps you didnt see the comment above that said I have nothing more to say on the matter. - Rjd0060 06:58, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

It's what user talk pages are for isn't it? Can't admit when you are wrong then? Just run away after stoking things up? you say: I think SOAP is referring to articles themselves, not the talk pages.[7]

Removed from User talk:Rjd0060 by User:Rjd0060:
Have you read the talk page guidelines recently? Clearly you believe it is now acceptable not to discuss the actual article at all on talk pages, but to discuss personal theories and ignore the article completely.[8] Wikipedia is not a soapbox, this clearly applies to talk pages as well, talk pages are for discussing articles, nothing more, nothing less (see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines esp Talk pages are not a forum for editors to argue their own different points of view about controversial issues.) You have made me very angry with your spurious warning. I'm going away for a bit because I don't want to edit when I am angry, it only leads to bad feelings. Yes I am involved with attempting to stop an single individual removing reliably sourced material from the article African diaspora against consensus, but you only seem to be able to see "reverts" and not the facts on the ground. At the very least if you are going to get involved you should make yourself au fait with the facts of any given situation. Alun 06:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Typical, give someone some power and they think they are infallible. Get your facts straight before barging in like a bull in a china shop, and if you make a mistake then admit it and apologise. Alun 07:03, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Look. I do apologize, now that Jeeny has explained something to me. I shouldn't have been so quick to add that template to your page. I really do apologize for that. However, I didn't want to involve myself in your dispute, and I clearly stated that, yet you continued to try and get me to become involved. That was unnecessary also. As far as re-adding the info to the talk page, I admit i didnt read every single word of it. After a closer look I see some personal attacks, amongst other things. I am now neutral on the issue of whether it should be removed or not. Feel free to remove it. - Rjd0060 07:40, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll leave it for the time being, possibly archive it in a few days, I don't think the material serves any ral purpose, but archiving is probably a less inflammatory thing to do than just blanking. Hope we can just get along now? Sorry if I pesterred you on your talk page, I know it can be irritating, I suppose I got a bee in my bonnet. All the best. Alun 07:45, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Everything is fine now. Sorry. I am used to doing a lot of RC patrol and Im sure you know it is a quick go thing. - Rjd0060 07:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

OMG

Don't respond anymore he/she/s having a meltdown. futurebird 14:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

You are right. I do have a habit of getting sucked into absurd discussions. I suppose it's a personality fault of mine. While other users are studiously not feeding the troll I am busilly pumping it full of sugar. I should learn when to shut up. Thanks for the message. Alun 14:17, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

There are some things I can't ignore, why is he/she talking about Jews now? This is getting so over the top it's absurd! futurebird 14:33, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the true aim is to strip the article of information, tag it as a pseudo issue and turn it into a stinking battleground where nobody wants to edit. "Melt-downs" are just a part of the show, often appearing in Act II if Act I fails to have desired effect. Unfortunately, this is utterly predictable--it's not exactly a first when it comes to articles about the African Diaspora. All left to wonder about is which article will be targeted next. That said, now about your edit summary: "how can you claim that you are awaiting sources, you just removed the source yourself!!! besides all wikipedia sections contain materia from multiple sources". Wobble, sorry, but the source does not state what the article says it does at the moment. There is no such conclusion reported in the study. I've read it four times, back and forth, just to make sure. It states nothing of the kind, I'm afraid. It's crucial to stick to the facts or you'll feed the troll circus. Please e-mail me if either of you need (private) access to the original document. Afv2006 23:43, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Addendum: In case I'm simply missing it, please quote the section that conveys the information "about 70% of white Americans have no detectable African ancestry at all (along with 5.5% of black Americans), other than the African ancestry shared by all humans, while the remainder (30%) have some detectable African ancestry, averaging 2.3%, probably from ancestors who passed through the endogamous color line from black to white" from the article used as a source, namely Mark D. Shriver and others, "Skin Pigmentation, Biogeographical Ancestry, and Admixture Mapping," Human Genetics, 112 (2003), 387-99. I just cannot find that idea, those numbers or even similar implications expressed in the article. Thanks. Afv2006 23:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

No problem. Thanks for your kind note. My main concern though is actually not what percentages are used to describe European Americans' genetic ancestry, but simply that this type of tangential edit war over the ancestry of self-identified European Americans has to take place in the article about the African diaspora. I don't think that the aim or basic idea is that European Americans should be given more space in this article because the coverage of Europeans on Wikipedia is so weak and spotty, and there is so much edit warring over the ancestry of Europeans and the views and examination of the DNA of world populations outside the European sphere of interest is simply overpowering? ;) Still, that is the result of the dispute in question. It is not as if the discussion about how the search for roots by means of DNA by self-identified African Americans of the African diaspora is threatening to overpower the current coverage of the European American issue in this article — note that there is NO coverage WHATSOEVER about this search for African roots, or how "DNA rewrites history for African-Americans", as the headlines go in the popular press. IMO the European American issue over whether some percentage of people clustered around the 20 to 40 units skin pigmentation range ("white European Americans") have more than the average 0.7% African ancestry (as per the article) is only tangential in this article about the African diaspora, and way secondary to this search for roots and ancestry. (The range mentioned is taken from the article in question, which states that "the sample of European Americans at State College, Pa have 0.7% (±0.9%) African ancestry", and "13 individuals born in different African countries and their pigmentation values range between 46 and 70 M index units. The range in persons showing 100% European ancestry is 20 to 40 units.") Also: Unless Frank W. Sweet is writing about the African diaspora, I'm afraid I'd consider him to also be of only tangential interest to the issue at hand (which, as I have to remind myself, is the African diaspora, not European Americans). Maybe the discussion about his credentials therefore could also take place on a page where his ideas are more directly relevant to the topic at hand?

Concerning Fig. 2b (I'm putting this by itself, because I consider it a small, secondary issue compared to the above and I'm not too concerned about it): My problem with your description of the article is that the article demonstrates the results for a particular, rather small, sample and does not seem to draw the wide, general conclusions you seem to favor for it. Table 2, according to the description on p. 391, shows that the European Americans at State College, Pa have 96.1% (±1.6%) European ancestry, 0.7% (±0.9%) African ancestry, and 3.2% (±1.6%) Native American ancestry. The 3.9 % figure (=0.7% African + 3.2% Native American ancestry) is, I assume, what has been excluded when Figure 2b is introduced. Fig 2b demonstrates the distribution of the 96.1% European ancestry within the sample. The headline that goes with it says that it shows "Distribution of percent European genetic contribution as estimated by using 34 AIMs in a sample of European Americans living in State College, Pa."

I think the wider issue of different percentages of African ancestry in self-identified European Americans is a very interesting topic that deserves attention — it's just that I don’t think it has more than a marginal interest in the articles relating to the African diaspora. In spite of the differences in opinions, no hard feelings. Best, Afv2006 22:12, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Practice vs Practise

Practice is the noun - practise is the verb - so 'practising' was correct - see Rosalind Franklin - same goes for Licence vs License. source: SOED. Rgrds, Ian Cairns 19:14, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Here ya go

		The Original Barnstar
		For all of your good work on the controversial articles and dealing with trolls in the process. - Rjd0060 19:48, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

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Hey (again)!

Thanks! My very first barnstar!!! :)--Ramdrake 21:44, 10 November 2007 (UTC)