User talk:Usedtoknowthat

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May 2014

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• |Third Battle of the Scarpe]]<ref>Ward p379</ref> in April and at the Third Battle of Ypres at {{Battle of Passchendaele#Battle of Broodseinde: 4 October|Broodseinde]].<ref>Ward P389</ref> The battalion suffered heavy losses during the early days of the German
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Beach groups

Thanks for putting this up - I'd written briefly about two of the Normandy beach groups in 66th Division (United Kingdom) but hadn't been able to find many sources. Do you know if 7th Border were retrained as a beach unit? (The other two battalions in this brigade were, so I've wondered what happened to them)

You might also be interested in this list - it doesn't specify exactly which unit was in which group, but has a fairly detailed listing of support units. Andrew Gray (talk) 21:00, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

7th Borders aren't in the reference I'm using for beach groups (Rogers), but according to Joslen (BIG WW2 orbat book) 7 Borders went to 54th Division on 20/12/40 (a division also used for beach groups material as well), then they appear in 222nd and 213th Brigades (from 9/12/43) in 76th Division, the last sentry is for 31/3/44. Its a guess it was broken up to reinforce other units.
Thanks for pointing me at that list, it will do something for the naming of units found in Rogers (which I think could have used another editorial sweep before publication).Usedtoknowthat (talk) 21:32, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Picking up an old discussion - any idea what (if any) beach groups were used at Anzio? Your article only discusses Normandy, Sicily & Salerno. Andrew Gray (talk) 17:22, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I've got nothing. (Similarly I'd like to write something about Indian Beach Groups, but all I've got is a badge...) Usedtoknowthat (talk)

I now have very little...I read in the Telegraph, in Denis Healeys obituary that he was awarded an MBE for services as a beachmaster at Anzio. So somebody was there.Usedtoknowthat (talk) 20:33, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that was the reason I thought of it as well! Thanks for checking. Andrew Gray (talk) 08:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

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Reference errors on 28 August

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10th Indian Infantry Brigade

Usedtoknowthat, I see your recent addition to 10th Indian Infantry Brigade. You will need to cite this.... you cannot just copy from another page - Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Hamish59 (talk) 21:48, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Likewise for 20th, 21st and 25th Indian Infantry Brigades. Hamish59 (talk) 21:50, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough, I was preparing the 10th Indian Div page for some orbat changes. The O.C. lists weren't separately cited to start with, but I've found out where they are. It'll be a slow(ish) time job though. Usedtoknowthat (talk) 18:12, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

No worries, mate. Hamish59 (talk) 20:44, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

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Divisional Insignia of the British Army

Thanks! Thanks for filling in the gaps, making corrections & improving the layout of the page. Mikeofv (talk) 00:27, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Cheers. For a while I'd had the idea of creating that page, it may not come as a surprise to you that I collect formation patches, both WW1 (rare as hen's teeth) and WW2 (frequently faked by a 'gentleman' in Surrey). You beat me to it!
Go easy on the 'thanks'... I've got more to do, when I figure out more about the vector graphics package I've got, or decide to photo them, and ideas about some text for the whens and wherefores. As soon as I can find some references I'll add a Deception section for WW2.Usedtoknowthat (talk) 21:10, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

AA Divisional insignia

Great work in sourcing the formation badges for the British AA Divisions. The last one (12th) has now been posted.Rickfive (talk) 20:56, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Cheers. The AA Corps insignia are on Higher Formation Insignia of the British Army if you need them.Usedtoknowthat (talk) 20:22, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Higher Headquarters Insignia

You built a great page! I'll ask to see if the one I started can get taken down or merged with yours. Cheers! Mikeofv (talk) 14:56, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I just posted a question in the teahouse for help to delete my article or merge it with yours. Mikeofv (talk) 18:18, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Cheers, either way I'd use some of those (non insignia) pictures you used.Usedtoknowthat (talk) 10:46, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Ok, I built the redirect to yours. One of the senior editors contacted me and told me we need to add additional text to the article explaining the significance & usage or the page would be taken down in favor of a gallery in the WikiCommons. Mikeofv (talk) 16:33, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

OK...Tricky... The sources get a bit vague on the generalities when they stop talking about division signs. I'll see what I can come up with. Is there a time limit on this? Thanks for the redirect and the pics.Usedtoknowthat (talk) 18:03, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't think so, probably we should have something by the end of September... Mikeofv (talk) 18:15, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I'll copy this section to the Higher Formations talk page.Usedtoknowthat (talk) 19:46, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

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23rd Div badge

Hi,

Thanks for the recent edit, and explanation. It does make me wonder why the museum includes the badge marked as such, but c'est la vie. Since it appears you have the books by Cole and Boulanger, do either of them provide any further information on the 23rd badge? Symbolism ala what Chappel wrote? The IWM usually has a small blurb about such things, but this seems to be the only division badge they don't have on their collections website.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 23:08, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

I think you have more on the symbolism than I have, neither Cole nor Boulanger mention any, ultimately it might boil down to "most of the infantry is from Yorkshire" as Chappel suggests. Cole mentions the background as "blue, sometimes green", and apart from those in Boulanger the only other photo I've seen is of an embroidered one on a green background, (on a blue armband!) of a UK based officer.

About the photo in the link, I wonder if the photographer got the label of the patch below the one pictured? On the other hand mis-attribution does happen, even Cole mixes up an armoured brigade, and as for e-bay ... As you might guess I collect patches, and once you've got your eye in, official, ordnance cloth begins to stand out. Usedtoknowthat (talk) 14:47, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi, a spin off of this question. On the Divisional insignia of the British Army article, it states that the "the 66th Division was designed but never used". This particular sentence does not have an inline citation. I was just wondering, is this per Cole p. 47? Also, if you have access to the sources on the First World War badges, do they explain the symbolism for this choice?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:14, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

For the 66th Division badge the wording is a rewording of what's in Cole p. 48 "The divisional badge was never issued, but the design...[was the First World War design]". As for the First World War badge, I've got the set of cigarette cards, which say the colours were first adopted by divisional transport, and then a triangular form for the division. No word on symbolism.Usedtoknowthat (talk) 18:17, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you so much :) EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 20:33, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

55th (West Lancashire) Division svg formation battle patches

Would you be interested in creating similar svgs for the battle patches of the 55th (West Lancashire) Division battalions like those you created for the 38th (Welsh) Division? There are examples of the battle patches in the division history. In addition, what does Hibbard say in Infantry Divisions, Identification Schemes 1917 about the division sign? Asking because Chappell has images of both a 5-leaf and 7 leaf version of the sign in his WWI insignia book. Thanks, Kges1901 (talk) 21:17, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Battle patches, not a problem, other than finding the mortar bomb silhouette used. The formation sign seems to have been the 7 leaf version, until some one settled on the '5 and 5 is 55' idea for the leaves, the 7 leaf version seems to be solely WW1.Usedtoknowthat (talk) 11:37, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Another badge question

• Cole (2), Howard, N (1953). Badges on Battledress, Post-War Formation Signs; Rank and Regimental Insignia. Aldershot: Gale and Polden., p. 56

The Divisional insignia of the British Army states that the 2nd Infantry Division maintained the same badge in the post-war era. Does Cole happen to mention any dates for the badge usage, specifically if the badge was retained during the 1976-1982 period when the division became the 2nd Armoured Division?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:54, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Not Cole, but another ref I haven't used yet, Watson, Rinaldi, The British Army in Germany (BAOR and After) 1947 - 2004 ISBN 9780972029698, says on p 150 that the badge was used throughout the period, as an infantry and armoured division. On a related matter, its a guess that the 4th and 5th divisions changed their formation signs to a black background when they became armoured divisions, 2nd and 3rd didn't need to.

I've been trying to did out enough facts from the references to write some words in the latter sections of the formation signs pages, they're a bit sparse.Usedtoknowthat (talk) 16:51, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

That source is problematic, especially if you were to consider taking this article to GAN, ACN, or FAN, as it is a not reliable per wiki standards. I know the intro explains the guys know their stuff, but it is self published which is the kicker.

Finding info on the CoLd War British Army is a nightmare! The IWM is also of little help, their article on the badge somewhat glosses over the post-war period sadly.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 18:25, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Well that scuppers using that source. The only other source I have, Hodges (2005) is modern era with a few vague allusions to the cold war.Usedtoknowthat (talk) 19:20, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

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2nd Div insignia

Howdy, when you have a moment, I was wondering if you still had access to Chappell's First World War work? If so, does Chappell happen to mention if the 2nd Div's insignia held any significance?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 03:21, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi there, Chappell doesn't, but the cigarette card series (probably based on V. Wheeler-Holohan's Divisional and Other Signs, 1920, (currently Naval & Military Press ISBN 9781843420958)) says the two smaller stars represent the division, and the larger red star represents the first Corps. Don't know if that holds true, as the WW1 divs I've written about were moved between Corps regularly.Usedtoknowthat (talk) 14:01, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response, much appreciated :) EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:17, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Missing cites in 35th Division (United Kingdom)

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1st Arm Div and Cole

Howdy!

If you still have access to Cole's work on British formation badges, if you could take a look and see what he has to say about the Rhino of the 1st Armoured Division (United Kingdom)? I have access to Chappel, and he does not provide much. The IWM's online write-ups, don't provide much either other than there was a switch to the charging rhino around 1942. Does Cole note when the original was adopted, why, and what it was supposed to represent?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:36, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Evenin'

Cole says the 'static' rhino was changed to the charging one in 1942, before the battle of El-Alamein, but doesn't say which one! According to Cole, it was the result of a sign painter's whim, quickly adapted as it was more dynamic. Cole only has the unsegmented version, Boulanger has that and the segmented version I posted, dating both to 1941, just to confuse things. I've seen more of the segmented version around the place than I have of the unsegmented ones.Usedtoknowthat (talk) 20:21, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, I appreciate you checking. I guess to add make things even worse, the IWM has photos of the division from 1940 with the static rhino painted on.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 13:50, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

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