User talk:Tserton

Germans

Just to share. Since this has nothing to do with improving the article, I post it here: Thanks for starting the discussion at Ethnic groups. Although it has become sour, I think it worth while. This morning, I read your words "making some group of people feel bad ...", then went to class where by coincidence a student with Turkish background told how she had been discriminated against by some teachers in primary school. Students without any migration background who knew those teachers confirmed what she said. That is part of my motivation to persevere and to stay calm. Although I have this motivation, I still want my edits to be neutral and agree with you (once again !) that "Wikipedia should describe the world as it is". --Rsk6400 (talk) 11:23, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

@Rsk6400:Thanks for your kind words, and thanks for the work you do educating young people. I myself grew up as an immigrant in a different culture than my parents', and without dedicated teachers who took the challenges I faced seriously, I would have found it impossible to thrive. I was lucky enough to grow up in an environment where my dual identity was well accepted and I experienced very little "othering". So I was a little dismayed at the anachronistic way many of these topics are addressed on Wikipedia, and it was a big motivation to become more active in the community. But at the same time, I am mindful that we have to base our arguments and decisions in evidence, not simply things I perceive as "common knowledge" - because that's the only way to update outdated articles or wording when there is much resistance against doing so. I still intend to see the discussion through until we come to a final decision. Stay safe in the real world! --Tserton (talk) 11:38, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Once again, thank you for your new ideas to solve the problem at Germans and for your encouraging words above. Another coincidence: The classroom discussion I mentioned above followed a presentation by a student on Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations" in which she mentioned Ugur Sahin as an example of success made possible by people's willingness to accept cultural differences. I saw that you were working on his article and was thinking that racism might have prevented us from getting a vaccine. --Rsk6400 (talk) 10:55, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Just read the latest comments at Talk:Germans. Still a bit shocked. I plan to take it to WP:DRN, but first I need to cool down a bit. Do you have any better idea ? --Rsk6400 (talk) 06:59, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

It might eventually come to that and I've considered it as well. I've never been involved in dispute resolution, but I think we should absolutely exhaust all attempts at consensus first, and it's definitely a good idea to let things calm down and let people have their say. The Rfc also needs to be closed first ("We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves.") I think that most of the editors in the debate are open to finding a solution - only 2-3 seem to be against any sort of compromise. But yeah, it's quite likely some sort of dispute resolution or even arbitration will be necessary, if edit warring persists once the Rfc (and the debate around it) concludes. --Tserton (talk) 14:14, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Turks in Germany dispute

Hi Tserton, could you weigh in on this discussion[1] so we can reach consensus? I see you are one of the more active editors on this article so it would be much appreciated. Will Tyson for real (talk) 02:16, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Since you are an experienced moderator can I ask for your advice? Sseevv keeps editing the contested sections of the article without anyone agreeing to it. This keeps muddying the waters by continually changing what was under debate before we have reached a resolution, I asked why he kept doing this earlier in the discussion but got no response and he did it again. I just asked him to stop again. He also accused me (and others) of sock puppeting and before that Vandalism, and reverted another user (not me) who tried to change those sections since, the other user received a warning but Ssevv didnt. He also removed the sources I had added originally entirely, which I would be fine with if it was just to wait for a consensus first but he also done countless edits since early December. His behaviour is mentioned in examples of disruptive editing,[2] points 1, 2, 4 and 5 apply to his behavior. However I didn't find a noticeboard for disruptive editing, and the incidents noticeboard has no option for reporting it. Is this acceptable behavior? How should I proceed? Will Tyson for real (talk) 01:56, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Just to clarify - I'm not a moderator, and Wikipedia doesn't have moderators. Your words carry just as much weight as mine and anyone else's (except those of administrators in certain very specific situations).

You're correct that it's considered good practice not to carry out disputed edits while the discussion is in progress, but this isn't a hard-and-fast policy, since bold editing is important to Wikipedia. If you feel a certain edit is strongly contentious, revert it. Given that this is a specific dispute largely between two users, you might try dispute resolution - but be aware that this is a form of mediation, not discipline.

You can also make a Request for Comment (RfC), but you'll have to formulate a very specific question that people can respond to - not many editors will be willing to read through the entire thread to figure out what's going on (as I said, I'm having trouble pinpointing the substance of the dispute myself). If the subject of the dispute is appropriate for an RfC, I can help set one up if you'd like (although you shouldn't be afraid of trying it yourself - just read up on the documentation). --Tserton (talk) 02:45, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Also: don't pay attention to editors bandying accusations of sock-puppeting or vandalism on talk pages. More often than not, they undermine their own credibility when they do so, and the only place where such words have any real meaning is at the appropriate noticeboards. --Tserton (talk) 03:06, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the response, I posted another response actually attempting to summarize the disagreement and I just now saw your response here, honest to god coincidence. And my mistake, I meant the same thing as administrator when I said moderator. If I do go foreword with submitting a request for comment I suppose I would narrow it down to the question of whether its appropriate to have political speech's and embassy estimates when more academic sources are available. As I stated in my most recent comment on the relevant talkpage everything else was just supporting arguments by comparison. My main fear about reverting Sseevv is being accused of edit warring, which wouldn't entirely be wrong if I reverted him more than three times (I already did so twice in early December), even though he basically bullied me off the article, which is why I've tried to argue these points with him on the talkpage. Thanks again. Will Tyson for real (talk) 05:32, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

@Will Tyson for real:Just to clarify further: I'm also not an admin. Just a bog-standard user like you haha. Anyway, just wanted to say that dealing with editors you find unconstructive is usually a thankless task, since backing down in an edit war means unprincipled users can temporarily "hijack" an article. But it's often the easiest way to move forward - the debate will go on and find a resolution based on the facts, and the edits reverted if it's called for. And you won't be steamrollered even when you're in the minority - your participation on the talk page will be reflected in whatever consensus ends up being hammered out. Only when deciding between mutually exclusive options are people ever "overruled," and then usually only by overwhelming consensus. Anyway, I hope you aren't put off editing Wikipedia and continue to volunteer. --Tserton (talk) 11:27, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

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Waiting for "Germans"

Only to vent my frustration at the delay of the closure: The date (2031) in your comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups reminded me of an old friend who jokingly told me that she will get the vaccination in 2026. BTW: She has at least two ethnicities, while her children have three: Basque, Spanish, German.

Just in case it becomes necessary, should we write a summary for WP:DRN together ? --Rsk6400 (talk) 06:38, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Volt edits / Dutch election threshold

Just a heads-up: Dutch threshold is getting the minimum for a seat, which has a different percentage in EU setting and in national setting. In national elections that's about 0.7%. Your calculation in the edit comment is probably about correct. --LaPingvino (talk) 01:28, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

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More on the ethnic group pages

Hi Tserton, I thoroughly support what you have done and tried to do for the above. I've tried recently to edit the 'English People' page. After making some quite major edits I've backed down and have simply tried to include a version of one of the Wikiproject (Ethnic Groups) piece of text, i.e.:

This article covers the <GROUP> as an ethnic group, not <GROUP> meaning citizens of <COUNTRY>

Strictly speaking there are no citizens of England so the version I have ended up suggesting is:

This article is about English people as an ethnic group, not English people meaning inhabitants of England.

My key argument is that this brings the WP article into closer accord with the OED definition of the adjective 'English', which is:

'Of or belonging to England (or Britain) or its inhabitants.' The OED adds 'In early use sometimes spec[ifically]. designating inhabitants of England of Anglo-Saxon descent, in contradistinction to those of Celtic, Scandinavian, or Norman descent.'

The insistence on focusing solely on something resembling (according to the OED) the non-current usage to the exclusion of the current usage, I find difficult to understand. I have laid my argument out (admittedly belatedly) on the talk page but I'm not sure if there will be any response and suspect that any further edits will just get reverted without backup or by claiming the more succinct statement is better, simply because it is more succinct. If you are able to offer any advice on how to proceed with this I would really appreciate it, even if it's just to say that I have gone about this in the wrong way and would do better to now leave it.

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Turks in Germany

Hi Tserton, I hope this message finds you well. As you have edited the article in the past I would very much appreciate your comments on how we can finally resolve the dispute. I recognise we are on opposite sides on the debate but the double standards and personal digs by "User:Will Tyson for real" is getting too much now. I'm all for discussing the issues and reaching a compromise, but I really can't deal with these ridiculous edit wars and repetitive arguments. Sorry for the rant. Kind regards, Sseevv (talk) 14:47, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Hey there, I've weighed in on the RfC. As for personal digs, I don't know what to tell you other than that editing Wikipedia sometimes requires thick skin, and when others get personal it's best not to engage and focus on the substance. --Tserton (talk) 12:43, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

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Semafor request

Hello, Tserton. Thanks again for reviewing my requests for Semafor (website) and updating the article on my behalf. A week or so ago I posted a request to address the section about China, which is problematic because the text is not based on what sources actually say about Semafor. Do you have a moment to review my concerns and proposed text? I'd appreciate any feedback or updates. SemaforMP (talk) 17:29, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi! Thanks for your message. I'd quite forgotten about the edit requests, so thanks for reminding me. I've responded on the Semafor talk page. --Tserton (talk) 15:07, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Justin B. Smith

Hello again, Tserton. You may have seen that I've submitted some COI edit requests for the Justin B. Smith biography at Talk:Justin B. Smith. I could use assistance with several requests on the page, but I've specifically solicited your feedback on the China text given your work at Talk:Semafor (website). Would you be able to review my concerns? Again, I'd appreciate any feedback or article updates. SemaforMP (talk) 14:29, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

"Triglycerol" listed at Redirects for discussion

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