User talk:TrudiJ/Adoptee/Nick Moyes

Adoption (Example of Transclusion)

Hello! I recently learned about the adoptee program, and just checked to see who might be available. You have kindly helped me in the past, and I've been impressed with your help to others, including some of my students, in the Teahouse. I have been editing for a couple of years, mostly writing articles on topics related to women: artists, needlework, or historical topics (a few recent examples are Deerfield Society of Arts and Crafts, Deerfield Society of Blue and White Needlework, Margaret C. Whiting, Tilden Ladies' Seminary). I teach undergraduates using the Wiki Education program, and love doing that. I also sometimes work on finding references. I've organized several Art & Feminism events on my campus. I would like to deepen my knowledge/experience of Wikipedia and at some point Wikidata too. I feel as if there is so much to learn, and I have only been dipping a toe into the water. Thank you for considering my request. TrudiJ (talk) 02:18, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi TrudiJ Yes, I'd love to be of help. You look to be the perfect fit for the type of editor I would wish to support - especially as you are already training others - though you are rather more arts-based than I am. My approach to supporting committed editors like yourself is not a structured one, but is rather a chance to invite you to ask a whole range of questions on topics that maybe need longer answers, more consideration or follow-through than one gets at places like the Teahouse. But WP:TH is still something you should use for quick answers to immediate problems.

What I did with a previous 'adoptee' Clovermoss was to create a subpage somewhere (probably best located as one of your own userpages) in which we can use the talk page to work through areas of interest. (See User:Nick Moyes/Adoption/Clovermoss and the discussions at its related talk page.)

Even after 10 years here, I am still learning new things, and that's what makes Wikipedia so interesting. It is both elegant and highly complex at one and the same time. But do bear in mind I have no idea (and possibly little interest) in what 'metaliteracy' or 'open pedagogy' means; I might have to leave that to you and your classes. I try and keep things simple when I can, but I do also have a preponderance for waffling on rather a lot! And, sadly, I still know nothing about Wikidata, I'm afraid.

My approach would probably be to invite you to think about the things you've found hard or confusing and to draft out a bulleted list which I can address one bit at a time, and which can be expanded or teased out as we go along. I'd like to know if there are areas you want to learn about in a mor structured way, or policies you need explaining. Along the way I would expect to be learning as well, which is a good thing. I see adoption as a two way deal; we both have to feel comfortable with it and we can each choose to stop at any time, with no questions asked.

If this appeals, just let me know. I won't be able to respond instantly to everything, but will do my best to offer support or guidance. Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 00:41, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, Nick Moyes. I am very excited about this opportunity, and will begin to work on my bulleted list. I've set up a subpage of my userpage, as you suggested, and will ping you as soon as I've added something.TrudiJ (talk) 12:09, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I started this page for our conversation and have added a couple of very basic questins to start. I am looking forward to learning! TrudiJ (talk) 07:23, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@TrudiJ: That's a great start. Feel free to add on bulleted queries as you think of them, and add the page to you watchlist in case I forget to ping you from there. I'll address each one in turn, and we can both build up a simple list of policy links or topics covered on the user-page, so as to form a quick regerence. I am off to fetch my daughter home from University today, so it maybe a while before I can get some quiet time on a proper keyboard to respond in detail. Nick Moyes (talk) 08:56, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Initial Questions

@Nick Moyes: I would again like to say thank you for taking me under your wing and allowing me the opportunity to become more adept contributing to Wikipedia! I have looked over your userpage with Clovermoss (talk · contribs) and have a sense of how this worked between the two of you. (I don't believe I linked correctly, as per how it worked on your page with her.)

I would like to add the item about my adoption from your Talk page to this page, so that I will have your response and suggestions readily available. I am tempted to copy and paste, but suspect that there might be another way to do this.
I was going to insert my signature, but in the visual editing mode, the Insert option for this is grayed out. Is this because it is my userpage? (Well, when I moved this section to the Talk page of my user subpage, there was no problem adding my signature.)

I will have more substantive questions soon! TrudiJ (talk) 07:49, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Bullet Point 1: Well, TrudiJ, you probably didn't mean to, but you kicked this off with a really challenging, 'deep-end' question, which I'm sure you didn't appreciate you were asking. It took me a little while to work out how to achieve it. You asked about simply copying over this section of my userpage, so you could have access to it here. Although we normally have to be careful not to copy over discussion threads which contains signatures and timestamps of other editors onto a new page without their agreement (or make any changes to it so that it looks like they said something they didn't), that wouldn't have applied here. So, you or I could could simply have edited the section and copy/pasted the source code. Boy, that would have been easy. But...

... I decided to take your question literally (purely as a learning exercise!) So, yes, there is another way. We have two ways of automatically copying text and other content from one place to another. One method is called WP:TRANSCLUSION; the other, WP:SUBSTITUTION. The latter is the most commonly experienced means of repetitively leaving text from one place into multiple places. A very good example are the various welcome messages we see, where a source template is used, and its contents is simply and automatically pasted in to the recipient page as the full code. Once it's there, no change in the donor page would influence what we see at the recipient page. It's pasted in, word for word, and for good. The other way - TRANSCLUSION - inserts a living copy of a donor page (known as a template) into a recipient page in such a way that any change in the donor page also appears on any page where that template is transcluded. So, by way of demonstration, I have transcluded the text from my user page into the section above this one. Until such time as that section is archived (and thus disappears from my user page entirely) any change there will also be seen above. To achieve this esoteric task, Ii had to read this section on how to do it, then inserted the following 'template':

{{trim|{{#section-h:User talk:Nick Moyes|Might you adopt me?}}}}

But don't panic: I won't be expecting you to use this anytime soon! But do note the 'nowiki' and 'nocode' commands if you edit and look at the source code on this page. These commands lets me display live code as simple text, rather than have them actually acted upon. One should always leave them off if you want the template to function - the template as all that stuff between the double curly brackets.

And just below, if you edit the page and look at the source code, I have added a template. It doesn't start with the letters subst: so I know its source page will be insert live here.

In fact, you might wish to add that to your userpage to show that you've been adopted by me.

@Nick Moyes: You must have laughed when I said I would ask more substantive questions soon! As you expected, I had no idea how much work there would be involved in formulating a response to my first question. I appreciate that you looked on this as a learning experience, though. I have now read your explanation 3 times, and I do think I get it. It also answered another question I hadn't yet asked, and that is the choice I am sometimes given as to how something is pasted in. I didn't understand the wiki code vs. plain text (labels may not be exactly right) option, and thought it less meaningful than it actually is.

Just to make sure I understand, if you archive the section from your page that has been transcluded here, it doesn't affect the section here, correct? This version isn't automatically archived? It is just changes within the section on the originating page?

I had no trouble adding the template onto my user page. However, I had no idea such a template existed. I have seen many templates on other users' pages, but didn't know how exactly they were developed. The ones I had on my user page I just copied from the source code on someone else's page.

@TrudiJ:: I'm not quite sure what you meant when you asked: " I didn't understand the wiki code vs. plain text (labels may not be exactly right) option,..." Wikicode/markup/source code are all synonyms for the 'plain text' we're typing here. We wrap little things like three apostrophes either side of a word to make it appear bold, for example. If you highlight a word and click the Bold button in the editor toolbar whilst editing here, you'll see that it then adds those little bits of coding instruction to the text. Give it a try! Nick Moyes (talk) 20:00, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry for now about my long explanation of transclusion versus substitution. But, no, it's the other way around. If you went to my talk page and shoved an image into our discussion there, because it is 'transcluded' that picture would appear here, too. Had the text above us been added in by 'substitution' it would only mirror what the post looked like when I substituted it, but any subsequent changes on my talk page would not appear here, too. In a few months, when my talk page automatically archives 3 months old discussion topics on my talk page (that time period's an optional setting I've chosen) it will be moved off my talk page, and thus the transclusion that I set up here will fail, and the contents will not be able to be shown.

Whilst any page can be used as a template and its contents inserted into another page, those likely to be used by everyone are kept in what we might call Templatespace (as opposed to Mainspace (for the articles themselves) or Userspace (you can guess what we find there!). Give it a try by typing into the search box this text:

Template:Welcome

You will see various options of templates being helpfully offered to you. Take a look at a few and get a sense of how many welcome message templates we have. Later on, I can link you to other types of templates, such as those for warning problem editors or vandals. Nick Moyes (talk) 20:00, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Bullet Point 2: Hmm. Interesting question. I should state right at the outset that I very rarely use Visual Editor, preferring WP:Source Editor, which is more powerful, and uses simple commands to create changes like bold and italics. It is however a lot less WYSIWYG. You can't normally use Visual Editor on Talk Pages, though you can on a Userpage. So that may explain why your signature was greyed out. You can change how you are presented with options for which Editing Tool to use by going to Special:Preferences and the 'Editing' section and ensuring you have 'Show me both editor tabs' selected, then save the changes. Within articles - but not on talk pages - you also can switch between editing tool by clicking the dark, sloping pencil icon on the upper right of your screen. Give it a try, but not on a talk page, and perhaps indicate what experiences you've had of each editor, and which you prefer to use most. I will try and tailor my guidance accordingly.

I have used both editors. I tend to work in the Visual Editor, and then switch to the Source Editor in those cases when I know I need it (for example, converting all the citations within the Bed hangings article (see bullet point about this switch in later list). However, frustration has also made me realize that I should check the Source Editor more--for example, placing images in an article. I wondered why I couldn't really control where they show up (not truly realizing it had to do with where my cursor was, but that still wasn't good enough when I did realize), so now I use the Source Editor for that. But I think because of my limited use of the Source Editor, I am less comfortable with it than I should be. So making me stretch a bit in this regard would be a good thing!

I reckon that'll do for now. I'll look at the next set of questions another day. But if you have any follow up responses, it'd be best to past them into this sectoin so things all stay together. Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 20:58, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've been working through all the helpful items/pages you've alerted me to. I'll slowly start to work in the Source Editor more, and I am using the indenting, as you will have seen. TrudiJ (talk) 21:45, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for these most helpful answers! And I just saw what you've started on the User page to document learning from this conversation, this is wonderful. One more very practical question--I understand that a colon acts like a tab. Since you are using it, should I not, so my responses to your responses are more noticeable? (I think I know that answer, and that is yes.) TrudiJ (talk) 14:33, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@TrudiJ: Yes, spot on with the colons. It would be helpful if you were to use those. One extra colon indents your reply by one step. This allows a more visual structure of questions and answers. I've tried to relay your replies out as I might hoped to see them, as explaned at WP:INDENT. And here are two pages about the other little codes that allow us to format pages. The main one is Help:Wikitext (shortcut: H:MARKUP) and here's a quicker-to-use version: Help:Cheatsheet (shortcut: WP:CHEAT). Most guidance pages have more than one shortcut to them - shown on the upper right of the page - so one can often make a stab at what might take you to a help page. Would you like me to add them to the 'front page'? Or would it be better for you to do that once you've visited the relevant page and feel it might be helpful to you? I'd suggest the latter option, but it's up to you. Nick Moyes (talk) 20:00, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Wikitext help page answered a question I was going to ask you (about diacritics) and I see that it will definitely help with other formatting issues I'll run up again. I added notes on the main page here to remind me some of the things I'll find there. I see you had added the items you'd talked about here, but I can start doing that as we continue. TrudiJ (talk) 21:45, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Conventions for Content

@Nick Moyes Here are several questions about items that have perplexed me.

Links within Wikipedia: I believe only the first mention of another page is linked, is this correct? I've wondered about this, thinking that if something is linked in the lead section, and then is mentioned many paragraphs later, wouldn't it be helpful to remind someone there is a Wikipedia article on the topic?
When does one use bold within an article? I've seen it used, but have never been clear on this.
In one of the articles I worked on, Crewel (embroidery), someone added a "Further Information" note in the Deerfield Society section at the end of the article. When would you do that, rather than just link to the second article? Is this connected to the question in my first bullet above?
I am contemplating adding more content on the history of samplers, and breaking the history section down into a number of subsections (as I did with Crewel embroidery). However, is there a fine line between enhancing the content of an article, and putting in too much detail? Are there differences of opinion about this that affect the acceptance of new content?

I will leave it at that for now, though a few other questions have bubbled up. I'll save them for next time. Thank you! I expect you will point me to some readings that will help me to understand these things, and that will be great, but I am curious about your experiences where applicable too. TrudiJ (talk) 07:47, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And more questions!

When one adds an External Links section, does it appear before or after the references? I found information on one page that says it goes at the end of the article. But I could interpret either location as the end!
[I worked with the editor further on this, and will attend a WikiConference North America session on it today, so this can be ignored, other than my curiosity about your preferred style TrudiJ (talk) 16:09, 13 December 2020 (UTC)] Another editor who rated my new bed hangings article said that he would have used a different style for the citations, one that included the page number in the reference itself. But then wouldn't one have to do a new citation for the source every time one reuses a source but cites a different page number? Should I not be using the rp template? The other editor did say that what matters is consistency.[reply]
I am finding that at times (all the time? I don't remember) I can only use Source editing on talk pages, not Visual editing. Is that a function of Wikipedia, or do I need to change a setting somewhere?
I enabled the "shortdesc" gadget in my preferences, but now don't know how to use it. Do you use it? What does it do for you?

Thanks! TrudiJ (talk) 03:47, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I now see what shortdesc does, but am still not sure when I would want to use it or how I would know what short description to use. TrudiJ (talk) 14:04, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@TrudiJ: External Links go right at the end of an article. I always get confused, too. See this section of our 'Manual of Style' to remind you.

Citation Style: Personally, I totally and utterly hate the style of citation you've used at Bed hangings. I rarely ever edit an article that uses that citation style, as I can't get my head around it. It's not wrong; but we on Wikipedia seem to have a blind spot about referencing when it comes to our Manual of Style. We fuss about everything else, including the application of different hyphen/dash characters, but not referencing style it would seem. Personally, I would deprecate that approach immediately, if I were 'King of Wikipedia...which of course I am not. I prefer inline citations (see WP:REFBEGIN) and it's very easy to cite a source once, and then reuse that reference multiple times, pointing to different pages in each instance. Yes you would use the {{rp}} template to add the page number after the reference:

To reuse a reference you give the reference a name, then on subsequent uses you 'call it up' by that name, without having to reenter all the details again. See WP:REFNAME for a full explanation. You can then use the {{rp}} template to add specific page numbers immediately afterwards, like this: First fact found on page 29 of a book.^[1]^: 29 Second fact found on page 114 from the same book.^[1]^: 114 And so on...

References

^ ^a ^b Willmot, A.; Moyes, N. (2015). The Flora of Derbyshire. Pisces Publications. ISBN 978-1-874357-65-0.

Talk Pages: No, you can only use WP:Source Editor on talk pages. WP:VE does not work there.
Short descriptions: I must be honest and say I've rarely edited 'short descriptions' and certainly have never added one from scratch. I guess you'll need to investigate and persuade me to pay more attention in future! Nick Moyes (talk) 01:42, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Questions on 12/19

@Nick Moyes:

Well, my adding a second ping in this session leads to a question. Should I ping you for each response I give in a continuing conversation? I did once above, but not for the second comment I made shortly below the first. (Though that earlier one doesn't seem to be there now...)
How do you make the best use of your watchlist? Do you check it each time you start a new session on Wikipedia? I should go through mine and make sure I don't have items on it that I really don't need, I have about 50 now, but some are older items. I am sure cleaning it up with help, but also learning how you make it work for you would provide me with a best practice.
If I am working on a page that has been rated as Start class, how would I go about getting someone's attention when I've added substantially enough that I'd like it to be considered for the next level? I know about the guidelines for page ratings, but the only time I asked for help was when I went to a WikiProject Talk page, and someone did do an initial rating in response to that request. That is a project I am involved with, but is it ok even if I am not? What if there is no WikiProject listed on the Talk page?
And connected with this, how do various WikiProjects find out about new pages? One that I thought was a bit strange was for the Bed hangings article I started and WikiProject Technology was added to it! It now has a C rating, while the other 2 projects list it as B.

I think I am asking too many questions! Thank you, thank you! TrudiJ (talk) 21:45, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

[Flora-1] Willmot, A.; Moyes, N. (2015). The Flora of Derbyshire. Pisces Publications. ISBN 978-1-874357-65-0.

[1]

Adoption (Example of Transclusion)

Initial Questions

Conventions for Content

More questions about article content

And more questions!

Questions on 12/19