User talk:Thomasdid

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Criticism of evolution

Hi there. Please remember WP:NPA as well as WP:AGF in your contributions to Talk:Evolution. Some of your recent remarks are getting close to the borderline. Also, I really think it is time for you to stop posting long messages on that talk page and running the risk of seriously annoying everyone until you have something concrete to contribute. Maybe it would in fact be a good idea to go and make some small contributions to other articles, to get the hang of it before making a major contribution to the Evolution article - if you are indeed a newcomer, as you say you are. Oh - and please remember to sign your posts! Snalwibma (talk) 08:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

personal attacks

Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks will lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you.
This edit not only made the thread of the discussion completely unreadable, it is also (with remarks like "You probably have problems in forming stable long term relationships") in clear breach of the no personal attacks policy. Keep it up, and I will have you banned. Snalwibma (talk) 15:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Criticism of evolution (Moved from Talk:Evolution)

Firstly, I am a newcomer.

While doing research on DNA I came across quite a lot of scientific criticism that questions evolution or at least key aspects of it. Mutations, mentioned in the second sentence in the main article, seems to have been disproved by the work of Dr Bruce Lipton for example, but there is also a lot more.

I hopped over to Wikipedia to read more, being used to a criticism section in an article. However, evolution's page does not contain such a section and its FAQ erroneously indicates that none of its criticisms have any support in biology. Even while I am no biologist, I can mention and give references to quite a few.

Seeing that this is a protected page and noting the sentiments on the FAQ, let me test the waters first. It seems the page really is not neutral and, given its importance, that a criticism section is long overdue, especially since the most recent and most exciting scientific advancements, certainly to me, has been in exactly these areas where evolution is questioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomasdid (talk • contribs) 08:37, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. May I refer you to Objections to evolution, where I think you will find the sort of criticism section that you are looking for? Snalwibma 08:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Can we throw in a link to this article somewhere if it's not already there? Sheep81 09:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead and look for some references, but I suspect that you are either misinterpreting these advances in biology, or you have been misled. thx1138 09:07, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I just did a little research on this Dr. Bruce Lipton. He's a complete crackpot. He hasn't "disproved" mutations or anything else. thx1138 09:13, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, but that Objections to evolution article is a bit general and vague and objections rather than than criticism, except maybe for the Michael Behe bit in the "Objections to evolution's plausibility" section. It seems to focus on the non-scientific parts of the evolution vs. creation debate which I suppose one should sidestep as far as possible. What I have in mind is a more concise, scientific and specific section to point those who wish to read further in specific directions. These directions being the known and documented holes in the theory. As tentative or indicative examples, but based only on preliminary research thus far, something like "evolution does not explain the sudden explosion of new life" plus a reference and "evolution does not explain leaps in development" plus reference for a second one. Thanks for the feedback on Lipton, although I am sure he'll disagree. Still, I want somebody closer to the topic to actually write the criticism section but for starters am arguing for its inclusion - it would have helped me a lot and seems warranted in the main article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomasdid (talk • contribs) 09:49, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The only "known and documented holes" come from people with, shall we say, less then reputable backings. Lipton is a quack and far from a quality source. Actually, it would be better if you just go ahead and pitched your idea for this section, and the subsequent slant it will take (pro-id or pro-creationism) so we can go ahead and reject it. Read through the archives before you try to introduce this "idea". Baegis 12:52, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

My original "idea" was to find the frontiers of science and I was hoping to find some pointers in this article, being accustomed to the criticism section that I've seen in many other articles in Wikipedia, one example being Socialism, but there are many others.

Funny, I was hoping to find an example in the Big Bang article but there, too, a criticism section is lacking, so that I settled for Socialism as an example. Anyhow, Simon Singh gives a table of criteria towards the end of his book on the big bang that shows for example that this theory has trouble explaining the formation of galaxies. This of course would be the first entry in the criticism section in the big bang article that I would suggest and I suppose that this is probably where the next few Nobel prices are waiting, either for those who can explain galaxies or develop a new theory to eventually either replace or augment the big bang theory in that it will better cater for the known gaps and holes in it. Singh's whole book is about how the big bang theory was initially obscure but eventually superseded the steady state model.

Anyhow, I am not an expert on the topic but what lies beyond evolution? Reading about recent developments in DNA research I found many comments on the scientific holes or questions posed to evolution and was hoping to find some kind of an enumeration of these in a criticism section in Wikipedia, but found that criticism on evolution is currently frowned upon. The Objections to evolution article that somebody mentioned is closer to the target, but still misses. Quoting from the article, something like 'Evolution has never been observed' basically adds nil to the debate while something more specific like, from one of the DNA articles

DNA acts as a kind of aerial open to the reception of not only the internal influences and changes within the organism but to those outside it as well.

and the conclusion that this may actually lead to a revaluation of evolution is much more scientific and much closer to home.

Now, again, I am not the one to write such a section, though I am willing to try. To some extent I am asking the knowledgeable evolutionists out there to tell us what are currently the known shortcomings of the theory. Where does evolution fail scientifically and why? Again, an example may be that evolution fail to explain the leaps in species development or that DNA reveals we have more in common with dolphins than with land mammals as proposed in Human evolutionary genetics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.240.255.185 (talk) 14:42, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I can find nothing to support your claim about the human relatedness to dolphins. Could you please provide some cites please? Jefffire 15:26, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

A number of evolutionary biologist contributed to this article with no mention of any significant criticisms. The outside influence-I guess you mean epigenetic phenomena or are you talking about examples of the environment inducing mutations? The former has a significant literature the latter is less appealing especially with the growing evidence of neutral molecular evolution-not that I am saying there aren't examples in the literature just fewer. Is your concern with the difference of microevolution and macroevolution mechanisms and outcomes? An encyclopedia article should present the majority consensus of information pertaining to the subject as any subject has minority views that in general are also dismissed in the literature by other peers. Seems for NPOV if we presented your papers to a differing view then all the retorts published afterwards should also be addressed-seems a tit for tat going nowhere. Perhaps the Objections to Evolution article is a better place to pursue your comments and address your concerns. Regards GetAgrippa 15:07, 3 December 2007 (UTC).

Bruce Lipton? Dolphins? i think its time to stop replying to this section. David D. (Talk) 15:28, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

What's an evolutionist? I don't think I have ever met one. Oh wait, a scientist! Yes, met a few of those. Evolution does not fail scientifically. There is a healthy debate within the field about certain aspects (mechanisms and such), but you would be hard pressed to find a legitimate scientist (read: relevant field of study) who would ever say that evolution has failed. How about you just go ahead and write the section you are proposing and then bring it here and it can be studied for inclusion. If this DNA article is from Lipton, as reputable as my dog on this issue, I don't think it will be included. After that, head on over to gravity and see if you can introduce a criticism for that article. Maybe something about how it's magical beings that hide in our feet that tether us to the ground and gravity does not explain how these beings came to be. Should be a good read.

On a separate note, who thinks that this user is a sock of a banned user...maybe it begins with an R. Baegis 16:40, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

A quick google on the human/dolphin thing shows http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=2708 and http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/dna_virus.html to answer the question, but it misses the point.

What I am trying to get is a list from the evolutionary biologists of the pressing questions or holes in their theory that I expected to find in the Criticism section of the main article. I also expected this list to indicate the frontiers of current research on the topic. GetAgrippa hits the nail on its head when mentioning that no significant criticisms are given and that is exactly what I am looking for and maybe, taking a cue from him, the first item on the list should then be that evolution fails to explain environment induced mutations.

I have repeatedly mentioned that I am not the one to make that list and please don't ridicule my examples of what such a list may contain. The issue being the list for now and not its contents. I am not looking for the list of the pro-id or pro-creation guys, but for the list of gaps that the evolutionists themselves are working on at present. If it does not exist then one could probably argue that evolution is dead and not an advancing science, or, alternatively, one just need to wait a couple of years for the next theory to emerge, as improbably as that may seem.

For what it is worth, I am writing a novel in which DNA plays a big part and in my research came across quite a few interesting questions posed by recent DNA research. I was hoping to find the frontiers enumerated on Wikipedia under a section called Criticism and am asking if it is not time to write such a section from the evolutionary perspective. In my specific case, suppose the list started with a point that said that evolution fails to explain why human DNA is much more similar to those of dolphins than those of apes. Then I could write that the mad scientist, after years of working on the topic, managed to solve the puzzle and then to produce clones that could stay under water for 30 minutes and threatened to take over the world. I realise this is a silly example, and maybe GetAgrippa is right again in that the list should be pursued elsewhere, but Objections certainly is not the place.

Funny that you should mention gravity, which I understand science still to be struggling with at present. The world thought Newton solved the puzzle and then Einstein came along. After a couple of years Einstein again was superseded by quantum mechanics. Some believe the final solution will come from M theory... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomasdid (talk • contribs) 17:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Look over the history of the article and count how many have tried to present an argument for a criticisms section over the last year alone. You will quickly realize the folly is such an endeavor and how quickly different editors respond demonstrating the weaknesses in such posits. In good faith, I tend to think you are not offering criticisms "of" evolution rather controversy and debates within evolution, which there are a number of noted debates and arguments like Mayr and Kimura, Gould and Dawkins, etc. So perhaps you are actually proposing a controversy section rather than criticisms? GetAgrippa 17:34, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Thomasdid: it appears that you want other authors to invent some "problems" in order to make this article appear "balanced"! There are plenty of unanswered questions within evolution, of the "which critter evolved from which other critter, and when" variety, but none of these is a "problem with evolution" (they do not indicate that evolution itself is likely to be false). Nor does evolution "fail to explain environment-induced mutations" (I note that you have provided no references). But evolution is actually in a better position than gravity, because the mechanisms are better-understood. --Robert Stevens 17:37, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

<undent>Over the last year or so, a few times a subsiduary daughter article addressing current research areas and unanswered questions has been considered. So far, this has not yet been written. Is this what you wanted? Only a few here are qualified to write such an article, and I am not one of them.--Filll 18:09, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the Big Bang article does have the section you're looking for here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang#Features.2C_issues_and_problems . It's called "issues and problems" instead of "criticisms". thx1138 23:57, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, GetAgrippa, this is the missing link I am looking for. Maybe the section should be called Controversies rather than Criticism as suggested but I've grown accustomed to finding a Criticism section attached to a Wikipedia article and from a consistency point would suggest that the name be that, but this is not critical.

Robert Stevens, I am not asking anybody to invent problems, but merely to share what they know to be the current areas of contention and believe this will make it a much better article. GetAgrippa points to two debates and this to me is a step in the right direction. This is where I expect to find the frontiers to be pushed and the cutting edge research to be done. If nobody knows where those frontiers are or if you are looking for an example of what I hoped to find there then the way in which the environment and DNA interacts, with Dr Lipton's work as a tentative reference, may be a suggestion. It seems you are also adding to the list in that evolution fails to explain adequately which critter evolved from which other critter? Something like this would also indicate an unanswered question and where potentially the next answer will come from.

Filll, that daughter article is exactly what I am looking for and I am also not the one to write it, but thought, given Wikipedia's open and collaborative nature, that maybe I could start by mentioned some of the - uhm - controversies I ran into lately. I admit I did not look at the archives, but the FAQ told me that such a list would amount to saying the earth is flat. I am asking if there really are no scientific issues and, if they do exist, if it is not really time to pin them down. Once that article is written, I'd suggest it be summarised into two or three sentences and that these be mentioned in the main article under a Criticism or Controversies or even a Issues and problems section, with an appropriate link of course.

Thanks thx1138, that issues and problems you mention made me revisit the Big Bang and note it as well. That article also contains a section discussing speculation beyond the current theory, starting like this:

While the Big Bang model is well established in cosmology, it is likely to be refined in the future.

This is also the kind of thing I was hoping to find in the Criticism section. Where is the theory currently advancing to and why? Presumably to address the issue list the theory will need to be refined on an ongoing basis and I suppose a living science will always have an issue list to work on - gravity being a sterling example of how set notions are bound to change....

Thanks all for contributing, I note that the section grew rapidly and appreciate all who participated. Now we need somebody to write that daughter article and then I suppose we'll discuss how to label or include it. From my side, it does not need to be rocket science, it could even be as simple as a list in the main article enumerating some of the current sticky issues. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomasdid (talk • contribs) 05:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Well I think one of the questions is what are the various mechanisms and how much of a contribution does each one make. I think if you look back in the history you will see others mentioned as this issue has come up again and again. It is pretty technical though and probably quite boring to someone in the public. Not the sort of exciting material you would get from the Discovery Institute (which is all proven to be just nonsense) or from the Institute for Creation Research (which is also just provably BS).--Filll 05:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Lipton's book is not a good source because it is complete nonsense. The environment does interact with DNA, in that cosmic rays can cause mutations, but that's not a point of contention; it's pretty well understood. Disputes about the exact lineage of some species are included in the articles about those species; see California condor#Taxonomy for example. Keep in mind that biological evolution is quite a bit better understood than the Big Bang and expansion of the universe; there aren't a lot of missing holes to fill in, and none of them would qualify as "criticims". One question currently being researched is how big a role horizontal gene transfer played in the early history of life. I think that's already mentioned in the article. thx1138 05:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

OK Filll, I looked at the most recent history - archive 41 - and found the Shortcomings section, as well as the more meaty parts of the Theory? Fact? False? Popular Opinion section to be more or less after the same thing. Again maybe such a section, whatever it is eventually called, with Shortcomings being the latest addition to the potential titles list, is overdue in the main article. As mentioned before, I am not asking for the pro-id or pro-creation lists and want to steer clear of that whole debate as far as possible. I am looking for the scientific questions posed to evolution or yet unanswered based on recent advances or current directions that those advances are pushing us into. HGT certainly makes for interesting reading.

Maybe thx1138 you can mention some references on Lipton in return. I'm sick of hearing how bad he is without any references but also want to dodge this regressing into a Lipton is good or bad debate, so maybe lets just drop Lipton completely and I'll google for his critics myself. I see there is also no Bruce Lipton in Wikipedia for those who wish to pursue it elsewhere.--Thomasdid 09:11, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

How exactly is HGT evidence against evolution? Separa 09:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It isn't. It's an area of ongoing research, and I think there is some dispute as to how much HGT occurred during the early history of life. It was the only example I could think of where there is significant disagreement among biologists about one of the mechanisms of evolution. thx1138 10:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

"Shortcomings" wouldn't work either. There aren't any significant shortcomings of the ToE, nor any significant criticisms within the field of biology. There are some areas that aren't very well understood, but nothing that indicates a problem with the theory as a whole. thx1138 11:06, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Induced mutations do occur in bacteria, yeast, and insects as I recall-hsp60 and hsp90 mediated, but there are other articles more contentious. I would say that epigenetics and phenotypic plasticity are areas not widely accepted with Jablonka, WestEberhand, etc. Really epigenetic phenomena would fall into current research rather than controversy. I note different authors will emphasize evolution acting at the level of the organism, deme, etc. Evodevo is a burgeoning field that hasn't quite found its place yet, and it does have published criticisms as I recall. In any case no evidence against evolution-more defining mechanisms of evolution and exploring possible mechanisms. GetAgrippa 12:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

For an explanation of why Lipton's books shouldn't be cited in this article, see Wikipedia:Reliable sources thx1138 20:45, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm still reading on the topic, since nobody is willing to write the Controversies page. Anybody here familiar with http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Booksources&isbn=0201062739 from Michael Ruse? Then, on a completely different topic - has http://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page been hacked? The main page looks very suspicious.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomasdid (talk • contribs) 08:25, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

You realise this is a science article? You seem to be interested in political controversies. David D. (Talk) 08:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Uhm, no. That book, from a reputable author - reference duly given - has a title that seems appropriate, albeit a bit old. I have not read that book, but maybe somebody here is familiar with it and could indicate if it is worth pursuing.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomasdid (talk • contribs) 09:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

"Darwinism defended, a guide to the evolution controversies (1982) " you think the book is discussing scientific controversies? From this web site the central theme of the book revolves around two questions. "Was Darwin Wrong? and Are there legitimate doubts about the theory of evolution?" So are there legitimate doubts? David D. (Talk) 09:14, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a clue - I am looking for a list of holes, unanswered questions, contentious issues, scientific controversies, known gaps and so on that evolution can not or struggle to explain at present. The book's title looks promising, but it is difficult to get hold of and quite old, so, before I even try, I am asking for those familiar with it to pass judgement on it being applicable or not in this endeavour. If you haven't read it, I presume you too haven't got a clue and then may I ask you politely but firmly to please keep quiet for now.

I read the book some years ago (I used to own it - but someone "borrowed" it without returning it). IIRC, I don't think it will be useful for your purposes. Its author is simply responding to misinterpretations and misunderstandings of Darwinism. That the book is 25 years old is worth noting, as it deals with issues from that time (pre-ID; pre-much of "modern" creationism). If I can make an observation: you appear to be trawling for something (anything?) that can be used to "weaken" the modern synthesis. If such a thing existed, it would be in the current primary literature, so you should look there. But, generally speaking, this does not seem the way to improve an encyclopedia article: it seems more like an attempt to introduce a POV that finds very little (any?) support in the scientific community. Cheers, --Plumbago (talk) 10:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not wanting to disprove evolution, I am doing my best to sidestep the pro-id and pro-creation debates which are next to impossible in this venture, but I am also not buying the idea that evolution is complete and answered all the questions. Funny how evolution is often mentioned to be as sure a thing as gravity, in this section and the article mentioned in the next. I know a tiny, tiny little bit about gravity - still fathoms more than what I know about evolution - but that only serves to increase my scepticism - ahem - scepticism in that there are no unanswered questions within evolution. I have to clarify quickly before you try to hit me on the head again with one of your two hammers, the one it seems being for pro-id and the other for pro-creation....

For gravity, you can construct such a list, even at present, after xxx number of years of research. Without that list, cool things such as the lifter - just use google ok - would probably not exist. That lifter is also pushing the frontiers of science and features in the novel quite a bit btw, and yes, I know Wikipedia is not the one to push those frontiers but is it really unscientific to ask for such a list for evolution? Is it really neutral or scientific to argue that evolution has arrived and that the list should be confined to the peripheral stuff out there.

Before you reach for your hammer, let me - again - hasten to make my endeavour crystal clear. The first step is to argue that evolution probably has some controversies, gaps, holes, unanswered questions or whatever and that it would make sense to include these or some reference to them in the main article - I certainly expected to find them there and when not this whole discussion started. Part of step 1 is to pick an appropriate title - I've settled on Controversies for now based on this discussion thus far.

The next step, I'll label it step 2 for future reference, is to populate that list. I am not asking for a thousand or even ten items and am not doing this to donate glee to those who oppose evolution, but suspect there to be a couple, say 5, such items warranted in such a list at present. I expect these items to feature in the cutting edge research that any living science will attract and also assume that such a list will exist for most every science out there. While one will probably not tire a pro-id or pro-creation scientist with such a question (put that hammer down please) and while I am very guilty of not being neutral in that I am not even inviting those to participate, tempted as I am at this stage, I want to know from the pro-evo, mainstream, majority or whatever label you want to use group of scientific researchers in this field what questions they hope to address with what they are spending their time on at present. Since they are no doubt working on many questions, let me narrow it down to those questions that currently pose a problem to evolution, such as, may I humbly suggest as an example of the format it may take on rather than an actual entry, why are dolphin DNA closer to human DNA when one would expect ape DNA to be closer.

Please put down that hammer, I am trying to dream up a format for that list and trying to provide examples of how things may be articulated on that list. Maybe I should fall back to gobbly-gook to avoid a hit on the head..... The list could look like this. a) Despite years of research, evolution still can not adequately explain abracadabra. b) Scientists don't agree on wooky dooky and some even question if it is possible given mooky chooky. c) Scientists expected to get x but in stead got y and this is currently an active area of research, leading to z. d) While evolution can explain zapcadap, this is not a probable outcome and recent advances led to dapcazap and mapcaplap being questioned. e) Evolution states billybolly but after scientists observed mollytolly the theory needs to be revised and currently it seems to be moving in the wollydolly direction.... There - 5 examples. If those in the know could even just replace the gobbly-gook with real words in one of these items I'd be sooooo grateful..... Feel free to change the constructions as well.

If you need to reach for your textbook to fill it in, then you are probably pinning what I am not looking for. I am not asking for the debates conducted in most isolated laboratories out there. Let me again jump to a simple example. Some would have heard of a theory called Capitalism, but did you know that, whilst a prominent theory, it is criticised that it often lead to a very unequal distribution of wealth. This does not fatally wound capitalism nor does it justify Socialism, but it tells you where government will intervene or where other theories will argue to be better. Both of these have a Criticism section in Wikipedia. I am looking or arguing for a similar section in evolution's main article....... --Thomasdid (talk) 10:35, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems our posts crossed. I duly followed the link you gave and saw that even Darwin himself had a chapter called Difficulties on Theory in the original work. If you were to write that chapter again today, just from the top of your head, not having to reach into the bottom drawer to come up with peripheral stuff, what would be the five or so biggest difficulties? Thank you. --Thomasdid (talk) 11:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll let the experts try to answer your question. I'm just going to tackle a specific example here: dolphin DNA is not closer to human DNA than ape DNA. I have no idea where you got that notion, but it's false. As far as I know, there are no mysteries in biology of the magnitude of that fictitious example.

Using the examples of Capitalism and Socialism doesn't really work, because those are political systems, not scientific theories. Criticisms of them are based on the subjective values of the people making the criticisms. Scientific criticisms of evolution would have to deal with things evolution cannot explain, or that seem to contradict evolutionary theory. thx1138 (talk) 11:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Continuing to assume good faith... I think the problem is that your five examples would turn into a list of:

1. things which evolutionary theory has no business trying to explain. Evolutionary theory does not explain the Big Bang. Indeed, and nor does it provide a good analysis of Shakespeare's sonnets.
2. issues of such minute complexity and arcane obscurity that they have no business in an encyclopedia article on the topic. There is an ongoing debate about the precise mechanism by which alternatively spliced exons are transgenerationally conserved in C. elegans and how this contributes to increased transcriptome and proteome diversity in various eukaryotic lineages.

Snalwibma (talk) 11:40, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Yippee! I just found the shield to all of the beatings I've received. It is in the AGF principle, though the link you gave point to something else. AGF AGF please. Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newtonian_gravity - it has a section called problems with the theory and under this you find theoretical concerns and disagreement with observation. It states that some questions actually may never be answered. Also look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitation which states that "By the end of the 19th century, it was known that the orbit of Mercury could not be accounted for entirely under Newton's theory". Now I am not sure that if I asked a scientist in 1900 to list known controversies in Newton if he would have alluded to this, but this is I suppose a more scientific example of what I am after. Does evolution have such a Mercury at present? Could http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsolved_problems_in_physics maybe be a step in the right direction? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomasdid (talk • contribs) 12:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that mistyped link to WP:AGF. I continue to assume it, but I'm sorry, I think it's now time to call your bluff. You are appealing to some sort of principle that an article about X should have a section on "Criticism of X" or "Controversies surrounding X". I fail to see any such absolute principle in Wikipedia policies like WP:NPOV, and everyone here is telling you (in various ways) that such a section is not required - but nonetheless... OK... Let's have one. Go ahead and write it. Go and do the research and come up with the contents. Time to stop asking others to act as your proxies. Put the effort that you are currently devoting to arguing about the principle into something more practical. Go and look for material to include, and start drafting an addition to the article. Snalwibma (talk) 12:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Phew, you really have got me now. I've tried to conceal this all along, but now that the truth has finally dawned.... Yes! I am accustomed to such a section and it has helped me a lot in the past. Yes, I expected to find one on the main evolution page. Yes, I have been arguing that one be included ever since, at one stage even wanting to write it myself but stopped by the FAQ and thus this discussion. Yes, I've lost waaaaaaay to much sleep asking for one, or rather, explaining what I am asking for. No, I don't know how to write it. If you don't know the answer either, don't get angry with me.

I expected such a list to be common knowledge and that its inclusion would make the main article better. When nobody came up with an answer, I suggested - repeatedly - that such a list would probably be guiding research in the field. I am not asking for anybody to disprove evolution but simply to mention what they know to be the major scientific issues, such as Mercury if this was the gravity page. I don't want anybody to do any additional work to create such a list and wish nobody to waste as much time as I did in pursuing this. I am merely asking those in the field to share what they already know and what are being worked on at present to get in line with theory or the theory in line with reality, maybe in the form of a formal list on the main page?

If such a list really really really does not exist then so be it, but I can not accept this. They say that an engineer believes his model approximates reality, a physicist believes reality approximates his model and a mathematician to have no model of reality. I fall in the latter category, literally and figuratively, but am asking the figurative engineers out there where the scientific mismatches are, supposing these to illuminate to some extent the frontiers of research, which is also what I am after as mentioned before. Are you telling me that you are all a bunch of physicists - figuratively - or that this particular article is the physicists' one? So be it. Then, maybe, where is the engineering page on evolution? Somebody suggested a daughter article. Where is that? Somebody asks where the opposing data is. I am asking the same question? How can evolution evolve if it has already answered all of the questions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomasdid (talk • contribs) 13:51, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Darwin's "Difficulties on Theory" were things such as lack of fossil record, particularly intermediates. These types of fossils have been found since his death. So should that still be a controversial point? The modern theory of evolution has moved a long way since Darwin, and even in Darwin day most of the controversey was politicaal. This is an article on science. The political controversy is tackled in depth in other article on wikipedia. A gap in our knowledge does not represent a criticism of the theory. Opposing data on the other hand might lead to a controversy especially if there is a competing model. Where is that data? David D. (Talk) 12:43, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

People disagreeing with your ideas for the article is not a "beating". thx1138 (talk) 13:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

As a side note, it can sometimes be hard to find specific info about known issues from Darwin's time. For example, one difficulty for Darwin (iirc the issue was raised by an informed cleric, and darwin accepted it as a legitimate problem), was that at the time, since the behaviour and existence of genes was not understood, darwin couldn't work out how offspring wouldn't be a generalised average of the parents - in other words, how could greater diversity arise from a process that would seem to lead towards uniformity. (mix two or three colours of paint and you may get an interesting new colour, but carry the process any further and you invariably end up with a gray/brown gloop).

It's an important point, since we have darwin's theory being vindicated by a much later discovery. Tomandlu (talk) 13:17, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I am still terribly confused about this. What exactly do you propose for this article? Using circular logic is not really helpful. What is this opposing data you are referring to in your post? And are you referring to problems with evolution as perceived by the public, by those of other viewpoints (ID & Creationism), or within the scientific community? Instead of soapboxing, get to the point. Sorry, I threw AGF out the window on this after the 3rd or 4th editor commented and you kept arguing in circles. And please follow talk page formatting guidelines. This section is now an eyesore. Baegis (talk) 14:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Joining the conversation late, it appears that in asking for "known gaps" in evolutionary theory, Thomas is asking the wrong questions. It comes back, once again, to the whole "evolution as fact and theory" issue. There are many gaps in the fact of evolution - the fossil record will never be complete, molecular phylogenies can never be resolved perfectly. But that isn't a gap in the theory of evolution. Of course, evolutionary theory isn't perfect, but debate isn't so much about "known gaps" as it is about the relative importance of mechanisms. Things like kin selection, group selection, evo-devo and Roughgarden's ideas about sexual selection are areas which have spawned debate and controversy in the last few decades...but they didn't stand outside as "criticisms", they stood inside as part of an ongoing debate. I don't think it's useful to spin them as "criticisms of evolution". Now when you get to areas like evolutionary psychology you find real controversies, but then, you are looking at applications of evolutionary theory. Guettarda (talk) 14:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

And you'll find that all the rival hypotheses are consistent with evolution. Hypotheses that contradict it would not be taken seriously, because the operation of natural selection is so well-established. 82.71.48.158 (talk) 16:12, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

<undent>This section has devolved into a mess with lots of circular argumentation and a fair amount of whining. There is a huge amount of confusion and misinformation in the discussion above:

• If the prior discussions on this issue on this page are sought, go back for the last year of posts. You have not found it yet.
• primate DNA is much closer to human DNA than cetacean DNA, contrary to what was claimed above over and over
• Several examples of current areas of current research in evolution have been already presented above. However, as I predicted, these examples are not "flashy" and exciting enough for this editor and he does not even recognize that he has already been given the material he was requesting since his level of education and knowledge is so poor in this area.
• We do not have to answer to his unilateral demands for new articles. Wikipedia is a volunteer effort, and articles are only available when and if they are available. This is not a fast food restaurant and no one is paying for this information. If someone does not like it, they can go to college, get a bachelor's degree in biology and then go to graduate school and get a phd in biology. Then they can write the article themselves (sorry is that uncivil? Well come on, how much do we have to endure?)
• There are many many articles about "controversies" with evolution: creation-evolution controversy, evolution as theory and fact, creationism, objections to evolution, flood geology, creation science, level of support for evolution and hundreds of subsiduary daughter articles which are linked to those articles. Feel free to read some of these. But bear in mind, the "objections" or "controversies" raised by Answers in Genesis or Institute for Creation Research or the Discovery Institute etc. are just nonsense. The real areas of current research and real research questions are sufficiently esoteric that even when they have been described to this editor, he is unable to recognize that he has already been given the information he seeks.
• evolution is far far far better understood and on a firmer foundation than gravity.
• the Ionocraft has nothing to do with antigravity. Making such claims puts the person in the realm of pseudoscientists and other assorted cranks.--Filll (talk) 17:10, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I dunno about that gravity thing - I'd expect firm foundations to depend on gravity, ergo nothing can have a firmer foundation than gravity. If you can't trust gravity, how can you trust those so-called firm foundations? Anyway, according to XKCD python can overload gravity. This comment has "delete me" written all over it... I'll go home now...Tomandlu (talk) 17:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

In defense of my mention of gravity, I meant it as a joke about the magical beings. Considering that school of thought (I have a book coming out...) is as important to the gravity article as interjecting the sort of obviously pro-creataID that the editor in question is advocating. Cheers!!! Baegis (talk) 21:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I think it's time to draw a nice

---

under this discussion. There - look! Proof that the earth is flat. Snalwibma (talk) 17:35, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Very good an EEG recording of a creationist. Well also all of us who responded to this line of questioning too. Back to improving the article. GetAgrippa (talk) 16:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

That line's height provides an excellent measure of the attention span of the typical contributor to this page. GetAgrippa, let me see how strong a shield AGF really is, since you've picked the hammer you're going to use to insult me - and I made the mistake to value your prior contributions to this discussion. This is not just a simple disagreement with ideas for the article, this is getting personal. AGF AGF AGF.

Filll, congratulations, the only thing you got right with unilateral is the spelling. If you feel strongly about that comment, why don't you stop using Wikipedia and write your own encyclopaedia. Also, if this discussion thus far is so littered with the examples you alluded to, then why don't you save us all years of study and format them nicely into a list to consider for inclusion in the main article - not the first time I have suggested this btw.

I am not the one arguing that evolution is at least as solid as gravity, but it actually illustrates my point beautifully. Since gravity is a prerequisite to evolution, I don't think you can really make the claim you are btw. Go read the gravity article, it shows you where the gaps are and even what lies beyond the current theories in that this is where science is expected to find the next answer. Is evolution at least going somewhere or can we stop writing and using new textbooks, since the fact and theory are both complete? See if I ever used the antigravity that you use to make me out for a crank or pseudoscientist. Congrats, too, as you were able to locate it in Wikipedia. But maybe, read a bit more ok. Wikipedia does not even mention - does link to - the asymmetric capacitor or how this makes some to believe that gravity actually is an electrostatic phenomenon. And buy yourself a book on quantum mechanics for Christmas ok.

Guettarda, you seem to be sincere and I do hope you are. Can you help me then to ask the right questions? Even the Introduction to evolution page has a section titled Different perspectives on the mechanism of evolution, but not the main one. Again using gravity as an example, that is such a nice page. After reading this you know where observational problems are (quantum level) and where the next theoretical answers are expected to come from (M theory). If you are happy with Newton's approximation, it is given, but if you want to read some more, you are pointed in the right direction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomasdid (talk • contribs) 08:17, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello again, Thomasdid - I will repeat what I said above: Go ahead and draft the sort of section you think should be included. Stop badgering others in an attempt to get them to do your work for you. There are many opinions expressed above, and the consensus is certainly that the sort of section you propose will not work. But there is no law against it, and no one is fobidding you from doing it. The best way of persuading people of its value would be be demonstration, rather than by endless discussion of the theory behind your proposal. This encyclopedia is a collaborative venture. Go ahead and collaborate! Snalwibma (talk) 08:39, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Look, I am not in this field, and the kind of thing I hope to appear in the main article is the kind of thing that somebody that has some experience should be able to mention from memory. I have drafted plenty of examples of what I think will add value, only to see the content, not the format, to be used against me, despite my directions trying to dodge that. Roughly a third of the comments to this discussion accused my motives and I agree that a lot of the clutter should have been avoided. Then again, I only learned of AGF late in the day.

The amount of links or content given that have tried to convert this into an evo/id/creation debate has also led to clutter and personal attacks. Even you offered hilarity in the display of your superior command of the formatting aspects of Wikipedia. Anyhow, I am working on such a list, but it will take me time. If anybody here is able to help out without pointing in the direction of the evo/id/creation debate.... --Thomasdid (talk) 08:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

What are we to think when you bring the dolphins are the most similar to humans on the DNA level? When you quote Lipton as a source? Again, there are no earth breaking criticisms of evolution that I know of, the debates are about the details not the grand scheme. Except for the creationists, which is probably why you have been branded with that brush. I don't think anyone is trying to kill your idea. The truth is that noone knows an example that fits your plan; so th're not so easy to "mention from memory".David D. (Talk) 09:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

You probably have problems in forming stable long term relationships. If somebody makes a mistake, acknowledges that and moves on, even if you don't forgive that person, at least be as polite as ignoring it in subsequent conversations. I've long ago stopped mentioned dolphins and Lipton, even using gobbly-gook to get away from it, but it seems your last name is stuck....--Thomasdid (talk) 15:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• I propose that this entire discussion, which is going nowhere, should be moved to User talk:Thomasdid or some other more appropriate location. Snalwibma (talk) 09:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Since you've managed to defame my personal page, maybe you can actually contribute and help to move this stuff over there as well. One last question, is there a blog out there somewhere (please not a creation/evolution debate one) where one can ask these kinds of questions and get mature answers? --Thomasdid (talk) 15:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Lighten up Thomasdid! It was a joke pointing to creationist and all of us-not you in particular. Everyone has told you that this is not a forum to answer your questions but a Talk page to improve the article. You are on a quest for info or trolling. Perhaps you should just do your own research for your novel. An article on debates and controversy in evolution has been proposed before but I guess it hasn't reached critical mass or any motivated to write it. I think most editors have been cordial trying to address your concerns. Regards GetAgrippa (talk) 12:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It is next to impossible not to get sucked into the whole evolution/creation debate. My quest is scientific, and, given that anything that has evolution in the vicinity of controversy immediately brings up thousands of pages that link to that debate, I think the section in the main article should be Criticism and not Controversy as you suggested and I accepted at one stage. Then again, I don't mind hurting your feelings any more... --Thomasdid (talk) 15:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry that you were offended Thomas. However, when you bring up sort of fringe ideas and references, it is a bit difficult to take your posts seriously. I am not an expert, as I said before, and so I cannot really write this article. I have many other articles which I have a background in, and I am writing those. We contribute when and if we can. As far as I understand, as I said before, the relative contributions of various mechanisms to evolution is not totally understood yet. Someone else mentioned epigenetics. Endosymbiotic theory is another controversial area. I think the Evolution of sex is also somewhat poorly understood still. There are others, but I am not a biologist. Good luck.--Filll (talk) 16:42, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I am certainly not the religious type, but I am not a biologist either - one of the preciously few things we have in common. If you were in 1900 and either went to a good school or else did some reading or research on your own, you probably would have known about Mercury and the problem it posed to Newton. If somebody nowadays publishes a paper and uses the normal distribution for example, I think he was either lazy or did not understand the question. The world is more complex that whatever theory you use to proxy it and in addressing that complexity you are advancing science. If you need to play within the boundaries, so be it, but you are not going to be the next Novel laureate. On that normal distribution and religious thingys, Einstein is quoted as God does not play dice but even he was wrong when later on the quants discovered that God does indeed play dice - this when they discovered uncertainty at the subatomic level and started to replaced Einstein....

The typical English scientist would have lived and died by Newton - or so I've heard - until Einstein came along. Now even he is fading away. My basic premise is that science really advances when it manages to plug the current holes in the prevalent theory and I also assume that any theory has its own list at any given point in time. My experience is also that this is happening faster and faster for all sciences I am familiar with. The main article comes across as a this is it - the final answer - allelujah affair and thus lacks neutrality as I mentioned before - IMHO.

If you want to understand something, it really helps if you also know where its shortfalls are and I again applaud the gravity article. Anyhow, let me thus more or less conclude that the main article can be improved, IMHO, if it features such a list. Let me not disappoint my public in not providing such a list - for starters, the Different perspectives on the mechanism of evolution from the Introduction page as a starting point. --Thomasdid (talk) 15:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• I'd just like to note that the Evolution FAQ includes a number of links to archived Talk discussions about proposals for a "criticism" section. This ground has been covered before. -Eisnel (talk) 21:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Thomas with your interest perhaps you should start a stub on controversies and debates within evolution. I think the article is fairly NPOV per subject and not much different than any encyclopedia I've read. Myself and others are keen on more recent ideas and research, and there was talk of a section or article. Why do you, as a physicist I assume, feel compelled to tell biologist how to write this article-do biologist tell you physicist how to write physics related articles? Not being territorial but it sounds like you are preaching,belittling biologists, and accusing the editors of ignorance or dishonesty. Perhaps I am taking your comments out of context as you did my attempt at humor earlier. Are you proposing we question the phenomena of evolution or the theories, hypotheses, models-science about the phenomena? Further what does this article and the changes you suggest have to do with the novel you stated was your intention. Regards, GetAgrippa (talk) 13:20, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Forget about the book - I would never have mentioned that had I known about AGF. Attempt at humour - yep - that is exactly how I would put it..... Seriously though, I saw it like that (humour), and don't take my reply too seriously either - otherwise you-know-who will threaten to block me again.

At present, I have it in mind to do more research on the topic, and create my own interpretation of it. I would write the main article differently and this is what I'll attempt. Though just for my own understanding, not to pummel biologists - tempted as I may be.

I am also looking for a nice blog where you can discuss scientific criticisms of evolution without somebody either painting you with a certain kind of brush or somebody else sending you some Hovind tapes. For example, suppose you have a lake filled with soup and bloweeeep organism a₁ arrives. a₁ must be green - there is nothing else to eat, he must photosynthesise. Bloweeep, somehow a₂ arrives. Either a₁ will eat a₂ and evolution is doomed or else both will continue until you eventually have a whole population a₁ ... a_n. Now somehow you have to leap from A to b₁, a new species, or else the whole thing fails again. Since a₁ is like a₂ in every aspect - presumably and based on evolution's common ancestor pillar - and since they live in the same environment, either a rock would need to fall inbetween them to separate them and allow unique traits to form or the environment needs to change. If the environment changes, then only as or bs can survive, whomever is the fittest, based on another pillar.... Anyhow, is there a blog somewhere that deals with these types of questions - uhm - scientifically.

My own, personal rewrite will start with the pillars of evolution, then what they imply and then starting with a₁ and getting to b₁, sidestepping the whole abiogenesis topic. For now.

The other problem with this idea is that it is really not difficult to get criticisms of evolution. The web abounds with examples. The trouble is to find the real and remaining ones. It seems that there are many studies that address specific criticisms and whenever you mention one you are at risk of not knowing whom published which paper in 2003 to solve the issue. Supposing the biologists know their field, then they will know which ones remain and are a headache at present. But God forbid if you don't know about that paper.

Well, maybe the place to find it really is in the perspectives within the topic. At least it seems the biologists don't agree with themselves anyhow. Nothing new I suppose as well.

PS : Thanks to whomever moved the discussion here.... No really, thanks....

PSS : I am not a physicist, but you can still have my signature if you want to.

PSSS : You-know-who will be proud of me - note how my wikipedia formatting skills have improved. Before long I'll be using bullets as well, albeit a real challenge at present. --Thomasdid (talk) 13:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Evolutionary biologists are concerned with fitness not fittest. Good luck with your personal rewrite. Maybe you can get it published if you submit it to a journal. Regards GetAgrippa (talk) 22:46, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah. I should warn that if you use the literature to synthesize an argument that is considered OR and is a no no in Wikipedia. GetAgrippa (talk) 12:25, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I know about the OR, it would be just for my own research. Have sort of given up on pursuing this, but every now and again stumbles onto something very interesting, like this site http://www.mcremo.com/

I've read about so many controversies that I think now, even more than before, that the main article should have such a section and is not NPOV. It seems one of the big problems with evolution is the lack of beneficial mutations, apparently an abundance is required to yield what we see today while most are bad. Also, selecting certain traits does not create new information - I think Behe develops this argument quite a bit.

Actually if you read with a NPOV you will see a rich literature addressing the issue of mutations and also the huge number of scientist who discredit Behe. I think your accusation of a lack of NPOV is nothing new and every attempt has been soundly dismissed by the majority of editors. I don't think you will find a criticism section in any encyclopedic evolution article as memory recalls. Good luck! GetAgrippa (talk) 17:02, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Short answer, Behe is a liar. There is no problem with lack of beneficial mutations, and his information nonsense is just made up. You might find more experts willing to discuss these issues <a href="http://www.heathen-hub.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7">here</a> or <a href="http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=30d542f5d64e4f143d4f7e22a0f1ef37>here</a>. thx1138 (talk) 06:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the links, how could I miss something like http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30770&sid=7f97288da513688d8f84ecb351b63b2e - albeit I've read about what this tries to explain quite early on and considered that a potential criticism: evolution does not explain the sudden explosion of life....--Thomasdid (talk) 07:52, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh well, for what it is worth, I've basically made up my mind. I'll revisit the links given above, maybe, but, growing up in a country that abounds with extremism, have developed out of necessity a sense of when something is science and when it is dogma. That sense is flashing orange when a site is called 'heathen-hub' and flashes red when I read some of the stuff posted there, so, admittedly, I did not waste a lot of time there and I don't think that is really NPOV and hardly the place to find criticisms of evolution. A hub of like minded people, even in real life, is often a hostile environment for asking unlike minded questions, so on with the quest.

One thing I realised, early on during this discussion, was that biology is a highly specialised science and that it has many branches, and you need to be intimately familiar with quite a few to participate in this debate on topics such as DNA for example. The thing that swayed me in the end was easy to understand and came from a different field altogether. I stumbled upon the Ica stones and the pictures they contain of dinosaurs and how this could not be had evolution happened. Then from there I read about so many out of place artefacts and stumbled upon the Oklo nuclear reactors - which some, including wikipedia - ascribe to natural processes. Anyhow, even wikipedia has a criticism section on itself somewhere....

These just some of the interesting things I've found. Others would be the highly advanced ancient cultures. My list of criticisms would certainly include the Ica stones, some of the artefacts that I've read about and the technology dug up from long ago. It seems these are difficult to explain under evolution. I also continue to find interesting bits and pieces about DNA, such as that it is self correcting and thus makes sustained modification or mutation next to impossible as one would expect under evolution.

Don't waste time ranting please, I've already tried to get both perspectives and also read about the criticisms to the Ica stones for example - that they could be fake or accidental paintings - but find these hard to believe. Funny, while not a biologist, after this I hoped to understand evolution a lot better as well. I'm now even more confused, I realise it is a vast field with many branches, but I am also much more convinced that it is possible, in fact, easy, to come up with valid criticisms of the theory. --Thomasdid (talk) 05:07, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

The Ica stones are certainly fake. I suggest you work on your critical thinking skills, or you will constantly be fooled by hucksters. thx1138 (talk) 07:43, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Yessir

Yeah right, the critical thinking class is now in session - from a first hand account.

Hi Pablo, come over here. You speak English?

Yessir

You know about the thousands of Ica stones

Yessir

You know I am a great scientist from the West

Yessir

Your girlfriend is still a virgin

Yessir

OK, now that the authority, credibility and moral character of the witness has been established. Pablo, do you think those Ica stones are fake

Yessir

Why, did you produce them yourself

Yessir

Now, where would you get those pictures from. A comic book right

Yessir

Of course, comic books grow on trees down here, as does paleantology manuals

Yessir

Great. Are you absolute sure you created all those stones and they are all a fake

Yessir

Thanks Pablo

Yessir

Class dismissed.

Anyhow, still reading, found a fascinating, if somewhat unrelated, site http://www.metaresearch.org

Obviously the status quo don't want to risk critisism - of any kind.... Not that I've read their explanation, just noted on the front page they have apparently observational evidence questioning the big bang and a similar experience of the establishment. See some of it http://www.metaresearch.org/cosmology/top10BBproblems.asp--Thomasdid (talk) 07:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

This http://www.metaresearch.org/home/viewpoint/meta-in-news.asp is also my experience with evolution, especially the The Meta Philosophy of Science section. Where do I sign up? Evolution certainly is the status quo and challenging it certainly leads to either ignoring or attacking the one who does so. Everybody seems to be stuck on a small bit of it but believes the whole to be coherent and true, while nobody wishes to waste time revisiting that whole. Every thread of evidence that would question the status quo is immediately labeled as a hoax and every bit of incoming data is interpreted in a way to validate the theory. Evolution is in serious need of a critical, scientific rethink yet, being king of the heap at present, simply bullies everybody into submission or silence. More about this later...... --Thomasdid (talk) 08:51, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Hey, btw, they had some big water cows back then (100BC) grazing at the Nile. See for yourself, at Nile mosaic of Palestrina - that thing they are spearing in the lake is a cow, right? Maybe Pablo drew it when the curator wasn't looking.

Yessir

--Thomasdid (talk) 08:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Note : interesting animal on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hieroglyphs_from_the_tomb_of_Seti_I.jpg - the one under the vulture on the left. --Thomasdid (talk) 13:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)