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September 2021

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Information icon Please do not add original research or novel syntheses of published material to articles as you apparently did to Sabarna Roy Choudhury. Please cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. Thank you. TrangaBellam (talk) 12:25, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure what does the TOI article prove (or disprove).

In 1997, they got hold of the real documents of Kolkata’s handover. Written in Parsi, it said that the Sabarna Roy Choudhury family had leased these three villages to the East India Company in exchange of 1300 per annum.

Views of family members (or even the judiciary) is immaterial in WIkipedia. WP:HISTRS.
Do you claim that British Museum (Addit. MSS 24039) is a forgery? Or that the notes of Sutanuti Court about letters from Walsh were an elaborate decoy, acted out for months? Which historian had studied the real documents of Kolkata’s handover, [w]ritten in Parsi? TrangaBellam (talk) 14:55, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The expert committee [...] have summed up their recommendations as follows:

[...]

2. One simple "founder" cannot be determined. [...] Sabarna Choudhuries who sold the villages to the English.
— https://indiankanoon.org/doc/782056/

TrangaBellam (talk) 15:59, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@TrangaBellam:, thanks for pointing them out. The order clearly states that the villages were "sold". So that was a mistake on my part. As for the rest of your message, I do not want to prove or disprove anything. I was updating the Bengali article, and found this one to be in a sorry state. So, I started adding to this article.
 Comment:
First of all I would like to make it clear that w are talking about the article Sabarna Roy Choudhury.
After going through the history of this article, I saw that in this edit you have given a few reasons for the edit:
  • Self-published book by Samaren Roy - Not sure what you meant by that since it was first published by Rupa & Co. which is a well known publisher (at least throughout India);
  • Another one by Purnendu Pattrea, a poet/painter/screenplay writer. - I don't think that a book by him could not be considered a reliable source;
  • Manna Publication is local and not one of their books is catalogued in Worldcat. - What? Not just the book from Manna Publication, but all the books given as reference in the portion that you had deleted have ISBNs which are catalogued in WorldCat. (Your recent edits to this article gives just two sources, one of which has been cited 10 times and the second one six times);
  • Calcutta High Court gave some judgment (have not read it; . . . - So you deleted the portion even before reading the judgement?
  • . . . BBC says historians don't accept it) - Where in the article of BBCNews was it mentioned that historians don't accept it?
  • . . . but the sources don't mention SRCs except as pleaders and their jagirdari rights. - Not sure what you meant by it.
I would not have given such a long-ish reply had the edit you had done a few hours earlier (the last one being this) had maintained WP:NPOV, but it was far from that. Also, this should have been discussed in the Talk page of the article.
Anyway, before signing off, I would like to tag here @Tito Dutta and Pinakpani: as they are editors of English Wikipedia and may know a few things about the matter of this article.
--- তনয় (t̪ɔnɔj) 17:30, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Can you link to the book by Samaren Roy? Is it in Bengali? I cannot read Bengali but English sources will take precedence, that they exist.
About Purnendu Pattrea, see Debjani Bhattacharya's comments.
What does an ISBN prove? What is the academic qualification of Bhabani Roy Choudhuri? Can you link to the Worldcat entry?
Yeah. Court rulings are primary sources.
The BBC article was already cited and it said, Historians have widely accepted that the city was founded when Job Charnock landed there on 24 August, 1690.
Why do you think my edits violate NPOV? TrangaBellam (talk) 18:25, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The sole point missing from the previous version - sourced to vernacular sources - is EIC bribing the Durbar. Interesting and I will search sources for this.
About the family history of RCs: these are attributed to folklore in English sources and I won't be reinstating them. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Samaren Roy is now added. His work satisfies HISTRS. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:14, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@TrangaBellam: thanks for the edits. Others also need to know that there were settlements in and around Kolkata before the English came here (yes, I am from Kolkata). So it was never "founded by Charnock". Hopefully someone of more repute enough to be considered a good source will write the history as it should be written, correct and unbiased. One thing that I would like to point out is that Lakshmikanta Ganguly was not deserted at his birth, but his father left him to become an ascetic, and Lakshmikanta Ganguly was raised by the extended family, as was the norm then, when a situation like this arise. Hope to include in the Bengali article the information you have added here along with the information available in books written by Bengali writers and researchers. --- তনয় (t̪ɔnɔj) 14:18, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There were settlements in and around Kolkata before the English came here - I agree. However, it is undeniable that the EIC was the driver of urbanization. Modern Calcutta won't have existed without Charnock and his heirs; I don't see a single urban historian who claims otherwise.
Lakshmikanta Ganguly was not deserted at his birth, but his father left him to become an ascetic - I think desert is appropriate enough, the cause is immaterial. But you are welcome to rewrite the line.
I used OCR on Bhabani Raychaudhuri's book which is at Internet Archive and GTranslated it. While most of the translations make little sense, it seems to be a publication, written at the behest of RC family by a family-member. Please do not use this source or I have to ask admins of this wiki, who edit there (or vice versa).
It is also strange that you had excluded all mentions of covered the 1698 sale in the bn wiki, which according to GTranslate, fits with the narrative of the RC family, claiming the sale to have never happened at all.
The Nishaan was purchased with bribe from "someone" (why isn't he mentioning Prince Azim?) and Aurangzeb apparently asked the RCs to not cooperate with the English, realizing the gaffe! It is also claimed that the EIC paid taxes to them; not to the Mughals. Also, the signatories were "minors", making the deed invalid as a legal instrument.
Every bit flies in the face of available evidence, as I show in the article. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:22, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@TrangaBellam: are you serious?? I thanked you (rightly so) for your edits, and you slapped me with COI? Have you seen the parts that I have edited/added in the Bengali article? I don't have any problem with you asking any admins, please go on, but which part of the article have been sourced to the said book, that is not written in one or more of the sources mentioned in that article? Did you put the COI because I am from Kolkata? Can't write anything about my city? Have you even seen my other edits in the Bengali wiki? Anyways, do whatever you want with the English article, do whatever you want with the Bengali article, do whatever you want to do with the admins here, there or anywhere for that matter. After going through the history of your edits in this wiki, I think I am wasting too much of my time arguing with you. Happy editing or whatever you do in Wikipedia. --- তনয় (t̪ɔnɔj) 16:09, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The COI message and the DS notices are tools of information. Nothing more.
Your user-name has the word "Barisha" which seem to be intricately connected with the SRCs. I have been previously harassed by editors, connected with the SRC family and that the bn.wiki article's coverage of the 1698 sale - largely in tunes with RC family propaganda, as I detail above - smelt of a COI. Now, Barisha has a population in thousands and it ought not be the case that all are SRCs - WP:AGF.
Now I think of it, you might not have written the section either. So, I apologize if I offended you.
The family origin story mentioned in Bhabani Raychaudhuri's book (as it seems from the citations) is derived from a class of literature that isn't exactly history and of doubtful authenticity. See P. T. Nair. Do we have any Persian source attesting to the veracity of Kamdev etc.? I have no idea why you are using Pattrea, who has not got any academic training in history.
Happy editing! TrangaBellam (talk) 20:15, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Managing a conflict of interest

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Information icon Hello, Tanay barisha. We welcome your contributions, but if you have an external relationship with the people, places or things you have written about on the page Sabarna Roy Choudhury, you may have a conflict of interest (COI). Editors with a conflict of interest may be unduly influenced by their connection to the topic. See the conflict of interest guideline and FAQ for organizations for more information. We ask that you:

In addition, you are required by the Wikimedia Foundation's terms of use to disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution which forms all or part of work for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation. See Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure.

Also, editing for the purpose of advertising, publicising, or promoting anyone or anything is not permitted. Thank you. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:22, 9 September 2021 (UTC) Withdrawn. TrangaBellam (talk) 20:17, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Important Notice

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This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.

You have shown interest in India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.

For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.

TrangaBellam (talk) 15:23, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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