User talk:Tamsier/2012

Yandé Codou Sène

Hi, I think File:Yande_Codou_Sene_-_The_Great_Serer_Diva.jpg may be a copyright violation. It looks like it might be one of a series of photos taken by Georges Gobet for AFP but you have loaded it to commons. If you copied it from a website I think it will need to be deleted from commons and loaded to Wikipedia (English and French) with a fair use rationale. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:15, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Sean for your notification. I have responded to your talk page.

Tamsier (talk) 20:22, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

As stated in your talk page[1], I originally acquired that photo in good faith. However if it breaches copyright laws and contravenes Wiki's policy, I rather delet it. I have now nominated the image for speedy deletion. I have also removed them from both corresponding English and French articles. Thank you.

Tamsier (talk) 04:39, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Joof family

The article Joof family has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Seems to be a duplication of Joof. Adding the word family to the title does not make it different.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. noq (talk) 18:18, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for notifying me. My response to the issues you have raised has been addressed in the article's talk page here[2] and previously in your talk page [3] regarding the redlinks you have removed whilst I was translating the article. Tamsier (talk) 22:24, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Feedback on Donation pages

Hi Tamsier!

My name is Patricia and I work at the WMF on the Fundraising department. We are trying to gather as much information as we can per country so that we can provide a great user experience for our donors in 2012. It would be great if you could help us reviewing a few pieces of our donation forms for us :)

1. For example, the address fields for the credit card option. Does the format of the fields below match the way you normally write your address in Ghana?

Surname: Name:
Address/PO Box:
City:
Country:
Email:

2. Would you allow us to send you a little survey with more questions related to Ghana. These are cultural questions that anyone who lives or know Ghana culture can answer :)

Thanks for letting me know and thanks in advance for your help!! Cheers, Ppena (WMF) (talk) 02:30, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

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Fixed thanks.Tamsier (talk) 11:49, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

{{stub}} tag and Dankaran Touman

Hi, Please note that the stub template does not take parameters the way you used it in this article, and also that it goes at the end, after everything except inter-wiki links (see WP:ORDER). I've fixed both problems. PamD 12:29, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks PamD. Tamsier (talk) 13:27, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Referring to your Semou Njekeh Joof page

Have you attempted to create a new template for the list of rulers of the of the Maads. I don't see one on the royalty page (It does needs an update, which I'll take care of some of in the near future, pending school issues) and I suggest these pages to get started on

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Template_namespace
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates

I also suggest you ask these people as well:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Templates

(Yes, I could've shortened it with the shorcut links, but I'm used to copying & pasting my links out before Wiki). I was going to rate the class your articles (which would have been start), but that's wasn't what you had ask for. Keep up the good work expanding a rather generally unknown subject in the history of Africa. I'll admit that I'm only familiar with the Serer people during the Almoravid era, and that's rather remote. I hope this gets you in the right direction. LeftAire (talk) 15:46, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you so much LeftAire. Yes you are right, a template would indeed be useful for the Maads. However I am hit-and-miss when it comes to templates but I will follow your links in order to learn more. There are so many Maads. Lol. At present, I am concentrating on the Joof Dynasty before moving on to the Faye Dynasty etc. There are so many of them. Thanks again. Best regards.Tamsier (talk) 16:51, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Added WP Bio

I've added WPBiography onto your page, along with the Royalty & Nobility link. I've seen other royal families (houses) that had links, and yours shouldn't be an exception to the rule. Continue on with your progress, just thought to let you know about the edit. Thanks for reading! LeftAire (talk) 19:10, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh thank you so much LeftAire. That's very kind of you. Thanks.Tamsier (talk) 19:33, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Palor people

Yngvadottir (talk) 16:03, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Well thank you, and a big thanks to Carabinieri who nominated the article. Best regards.Tamsier (talk) 21:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Nonfree content outside article space

I have nominated Portal:Serer/Selected_picture/3 for speedy deletion, because it exists only to cause a nonfree image to be displayed article space, a violation of the policy governing the use of nonfree images. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 18:09, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Category:Serer athletes

Category:Serer athletes, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Pichpich (talk) 12:55, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Fidel Castro's Childhood

Dear Tamsier

Thanks for the positive feedback. Have you seen the contribution below? Its a mofification but am not sure if you have seen it or have any thoughts about it being added to Fidel Castro's biog page?

For 50 years Fidel Castro has defied all Americas attempts via Economic blockade to topple him and Cubas government. His sheer determination and stubborness to resist this formidable pressure stems from a difficult childhood. He had a love–hate relationship with his father Angel, while his mother was a devotee of Santeria - a fusion of African/Cuban mysticism combined with Spanish orthodox Catholocism. Castro was baptized as a Catholic, although he enshrined an atheist consitution into Cuba's Communist government. This was revoked following the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 1990's. His Catholicism had to be hidden due to economic and financial dependence on the Soviet Union which deterred any religious affiliation. He cites his Jesuit teachers as the source of his resilience and utter selflessness to liberate Cuba from foreign control. Castro's childhood was emotionally harsh with an overbearing father, a devout but distant mother, and frequent school changes involving Boarding away from the family home with uncaring strangers. He was bullied at his local school in Biran because he came from a wealthy sugar plantation family, but when he went to the elite Jesuit schools in Santiago and Havana he was bullied again - perceived by boys from the Spanish colonial ruling class as a rough, unmannered country lad.

References

Ainsworth, M., Blehar, M.,Waters, E., and Wall, S. (1978) Patterns of Attachment: a psychological study of the strange situation. New York. Erlbaum.

Balfour, S. (1990) Castro. London, Longman Group.

Betto, F. (1987) Fidel and Religion - Castro talks on revolution and religion. New York, US. Simon & Schuster.

Bilton, T; Bonnet, K; Jones, P; Lawson, T; Skinnner, D; Stanworth, M; and Webster, A. (2002) Introductory Sociology. Basingstoke, Palgrave Macmillan.

Bonaches, R.E. & Valdes, N.P. ( 1970), (eds) Revolutionary Struggle: from the selected works of Fidel Castro. Cambridge, US. MIT Press.

Bourne, P. (1986) Fidel: a biography of Fidel Castro. New York, Dodd, Mead & Co.

Bowlby,J. (1979) The Making and Breaking of Affectional Bonds. London, Tavistock.

Butts, E.R. & Schwartz, J.R. (2005) Fidel Castro. Minneapolis,US. Lerner Publications.

Carrol, M. (1998) Social work's conceptualisation of spirituality. Social Thought: Journal of Religion in the Social Sciences. 18,(2) 1-14.

Castro, F. (1953) History Will Absolve Me. Cuba. Editorial de Ciencias Sociales, La Habana (trans1975).

Castro, F. (1998) My Early Years, Melbourne, Aust. Ocean Press.

Castro, F. (2006) Che - a memoir by Fidel Castro. Melbourne, Aust. Ocean Press.

Castro, F. (2002) War, Racism and Economic Justice: The Global Ravages of Capitalism. Melbourne, Ocean Press.

Castro, F. & Hurley, A.(trans) (2008). Fidel Castro - my life. London, Penguin.

Coltman, L. (2003) The Real Fidel Castro. New Haven, US. Yale University Press.

Connoly, S. (2002) Castro - A Beginners Guide. Abingdon, UK. Bookpoint.

Díaz-Plaja, F. (1933): "Discurso de José Antonio Primo de Rivera exponiendo los puntos fundamentales de Falange española, pronunciado en el Teatro de la Comedia de Madrid, el día 29 de Octubre de 1933

Dodds, E. R. (1966) Greece and Rome. London, Oxford University Press.

Dubois, J. (1959) Fidel Castro - Rebel, Liberator or Dictator? New York. Bobbs-Merrill.

Elliot, J.M. & Dymally, M.M. (1986) Fidel Castro - Nothing Can Stop the Course of History. New York, US. Pathfinder Press.

Franqui, C. (1980) (ed) Diary of the Cuban Revolution. New York. Viking/Penguin.

Freud. S. (1924) Collected Papers vol 4. London, Penguin.

Hildreth, G. H; Boglin, M. L; & Mask, K. (2000) Review of Literature on Resiliency in Black Families: Implications for the 21st Century. Department of Family Studies, College of Human Environmental Sciences. Kentucky, University of Kentucky.

Ichaso, F. (1952),'ideas y aspiracionnes de la primera generacion republicana' in: Guerra, R et al: Historia dela Nacion Cubana. Havana, Editorial istoria de la Nacion Cubana.

Jung, C. G. (1953) Two Essays on Analytical Psychology, in: The Collected Works of C.G. Jung. eds: Adler, G, Fordham, M & Read, H. London, Routledge and Kegan Paul.

Lenin, V. I.(1894) “What the ‘Friends of the People Are' and How They Fight the Social Democrats”, Collected Works, Vol.1.Moscow, Progress Publishers.

Leonard, T.M. (2004) Fidel Castro - A Biography. Westport, US. Greenwood Press.

Mandela, N. & Castro, F. (1991) How Far We Slaves Have Come! South Africa and Cuba in Today's World. New York, Pathfinder Press.

March, A. (2002) (ed,) Che Guevara - Global Justice, Liberation and Socialism. Melbourne, Aust. Ocean Press.

Marti. J. J. (1971) cited in: Marti y la primera revolucion cubana. Biblioteca Fundamental del Hombre. Cuba.

Martin, L. (1978) The Early Fidel - Roots of Castro's Communism. New York, Lyle Stuart.

Matthews, H.L. (1969) Castro. London, Pelican Books.

Newman, T. (2002) Promoting Resilience: a review of effective strategies for child care services, Centre for Evidence Based Social Services, University of Exeter.

Quirk, R.E. (1993) Fidel Castro - the full story of his rise to power, his regime, his allies and his adversaries. New York, W.W. Norton.

Ramonet, I. (2006) My Life Fidel Castro. London, Penguin Books.

Skierka, V. (2004) Fidel Castro: A Biography. Cambridge, UK. Polity Press.

Szulc, T. (1986) Fidel - A Critical Portrait. London, Hutchinson.

Stone, E. (1981) (ed) Women and the Cuban revolution. London, Pathfinder Press.

Taber, M. (ed,) (1983) Fidel Castro Speeches, Vol ii. Our Power Is That Of The Working People - building socialism in Cuba, New York, Pathfinder Press.

Thomas, H. (1971) Cuba - The Pursuit of Freedom. London, Picador.

Veliz, C. (1967) (ed,) The politics of conformity in Latin America. London, Oxford University Press.

Walker. S. (2005) Culturally Competent Therapy - working with children and young people. Basingstoke, UK. Palgrave Macmillan.

Williams, W.A. (1962) The United Sates, Cuba, and Castro - an essay on the dynamics of revolution and the dissolution of empire. New York, MR Press. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swalk1954 (talk • contribs) 19:11, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi Swalk1954, Personally, and this is just my personal opinion, I would do the following :

1. Remove the emotional language such as "overbearing father", "uncaring strangers", "utter selflessness", "stubborness", etc. You don't want to appear to be passing jugement or expressing an opinion. You want the language of the article to be neutral and encyclopedic. Unless you are making a direct quote from a reliable source, then put them in quotation marks followed by an inline citation. This is a biography of a living person and Wiki is very strict on this. So unsubstantiated libelous claims may be deleted. As another Wiki editor (Halaqah) would say, to which I agree with : the best articles are neutral. No one should know the personal opinion/feelings of the editor.

2. The accounts above needs inline citations. There are lots of references but I (or others) do not know which source is supporting which claim.

I have also cleaned up some sections (above), added interlinks and an example of inline citation (though we need the page number, hence p_). Hope that helps. Best of luck. Tamsier (talk) 20:12, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikiproject archaeology

Apologies for not notifying you. I've replied there (and more apologies for not keeping up with that discussion). My major concern is that you are presenting opinion as fact. Perhaps French archaeologists write with more certainty than English-speaking ones, but "This era marks the development of Serer religion and the concept of ciid (reincarnation)." is presenting as fact something that is an interpretation, an opinion, and should actually be something like "Henry Gravrand believes that this era marks the development of Serer religion and the concept of ciid (reincarnation)." This would probably apply in other articles you've written (and you are doing a magnificent job in general) where an interpretation is presented as fact. Dougweller (talk) 09:24, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi Dougweller, thank you very much for that. I see what you are saying, but you've done a great job in copy editing. Thanks for your help. Best Regards. Tamsier (talk) 12:12, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

EDIT : I have also replied there. Thanks.Tamsier (talk)

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Your oppose at RFA

Hi Tamsier, whilst I respect your opinion and your right to !vote, I suggest you have a look at my comment. Whilst I can see and completely understand where your coming from, you need to make a judgement on the candidate not on the nominators. Callanecc (talk • contribs) talkback (etc) template appreciated. 06:14, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi Callanecc, Thanks for the message, but I have. I believe the nomination to be suspect and have accordlingly raised it at the RfA. Unfortunately, I cannot support (or ntl.) a nomination which I have great concerns over. That is the reason why I voted oppose. I meant no disrespect to the candidate I just cannot support his nomination at this time.Tamsier (talk) 11:22, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Callanecc, if you "completely understand" where this user is coming from, I assume you agree with them on their assessment about me. That's fine, since I don't need your approval (though please, explain why I should have a problem with Sub-Saharan Africa), but if you really want to know where this user is coming from, you should check their block log and their contributions. This one is a gem; that they weren't indef-blocked after their fourth block (for POV editing, harassment, socking, personal insults, etc) is the real mystery. Drmies (talk) 12:47, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Drmies I didn't mean that I agree (not at all!) I meant that I can understand their point of view (and how they may have viewed things that you have said through negative glasses), not that I agree with them. Sorry about that should have made it much clearer. Callanecc (talk • contribs) talkback (etc) template appreciated. 13:00, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I also would like to offer my two cents on this matter. Opposing someone based on a perceived grudge with the nominator really does nothing to further your cause, it only makes you look ridiculous. Not only will the closing bureaucrat totally ignore your oppose, but this kind of thing has the tendency to be seen by the community more as a cry for attention than as any real statement. If you have a problem with someone, there are much more appropriate avenues to voicing it than someone else's RfA. Trusilver 13:43, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you all for your comments especially to Callanecc and Trusilver. You comments and suggestions are duly noted. May I remind Drmies (administrator or not) this is still my talk page and I would expect a bit of respect when you come to address me here. At least I never went around using swear words or being rude to others editors right in the middle of an RfA. As an administrator, your behaviour in this RfA ("Don't hate us cause we're beautiful.." & calling another a "Vaffanculo") has proved unprofessional irrespective of how long you may have known some of them. Do not bring it to an RfA, some of us do not want to listen to that vulgarity right in a middle of an RfA. Given that you are an admin, I thought you of all people should know better than that. That kind of behaviour would never have been tolerated in French Wiki. Only in English Wiki. I wonder why. I was given a vote, I voted against the candidate you've put forward. Now the closing bureaucrat may disregard my vote when closing and that is their prerogative. So what seems to be the problem? Your candidate may still make it after all this. As regards to my block, as I have made in a former RfA, a few block history especially if its is some time a ago is good. It shows that the person is passionate about improving Wiki. Yes they may have gone about things the wrong way (or not) but it aleast demonstrates passion and show that they are human. I would find it hard to ever support a candidate who has never been blocked, especially if they have been here for some time. Because it makes me question their sincerity and passion especially when I see the "I want to be an admin one day" tag on their user page. Wikipedia needs passionate and determined people who have the guts to say what they think come what may. This is the only way English Wikipedia can improve. An editor should not be made to feel they have to "pussyfoot round" an admin in fear that the admin may abuse their tools, block them or have other santions taken against them. This issue has been raised at ER. Perhaps you may wish to participate in that discuission. As regards to the sock, I found out about it late (yes perhaps I should have known earlier, but I may have deleted it out of anger at the time) and attempted to respond and rebute the allegations. My rebuttal was deleted because it was filed in too late[4]. In the end, I said what hell! I felt my contribtions to Wiki in developing Sub-Saharan African related articles (one of the most under represented, which certain people would like to keep that way) speaks for itself. I do not even have to justify myself to you but just thought I englighten you since you have brought it up. And just for the record, the editor I had a problem with (Halaqah), him and I have sorted out differences before the last time I seen his contributions. In my opinion, I felt that we were trying to achieve the same objectives but going about it in different ways. I have great respect for him as an editor and have told him that on his talk page and elsewhere. In any case, I may have used some strong /dismissive language, but have never used such vulgarity in Wikipedia in all the years I have been here. I am shocked by your use of such language in Wiki especially as an administrator. What I even find more shocking is that, nobody even commented on that apart from me. Such language would not have been tolerated in a French RfA. Only in English Wiki. But then again, as the saying goes, when in Rome.... Tamsier (talk) 18:14, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

• Tamsier, you are truly a unique editor. But...hold on...I'm trying to figure something out...you're shocked by the behavior of an admin...you're shocked by the lack of response from the community...you can't take a joke...the English wiki has a systemic bias...the French wiki is awesome because the French are great...precisely what are you doing here on the English wiki? You don't have to stay in Rome as you like it. Besides trying to mess up a perfectly good RfA because you have some beef with me--on some stupid thing from almost a year ago? Have you been tracing my every step since November 2011, when you launched that stupid ANI report which did nothing but point attention to your own behavior? Don't answer that. I have no interest in you at all, and I am confident that everyone who looks at this, and has a look at your style, your contributions, and your block log, will understand what's going on. Cordialement, Drmies (talk) 01:18, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Drmies, Administrator or not, this is my talk page. You may use it if you have something important to talk to me about, not to use it to insult me or to waste my time. Consider this a warning, please do not do it again. You are upset because I did not vote for your protegé, but you are more upset because I highlighted your behaviour especially your use of vulgarity right in the middle of an RfA ("Don't hate us cause we're beautiful" and calling some one a "Vaffanculo" in the middle of an RfA). I care less how long you know some of these people. You do not use such vulgarity in the middle of an RfA. As an administrator, I thought you of all people should know better than that. I may be very vocal and sometimes rather dismissive (which I am working on to improve) but I have never ever used such vulgarity in all the time I have been on Wiki. Perhaps I should just take a chill pill and follow the crowd. But sorry, I have higher standards. And please don't flatter yourself or get too big for your boots. Do you honestly think I have the time or inclination to follow your step since last year when I have more important things to do? And yes! You have interest in me that's why you are here. That's why you have also gone to the Serer religion's talk page to vent your anger and accusing me of stuff. You thought I didn't see that? Ha! Ha! Ha! I saw. I saw Drmies. I just choose to ignore it, and I will be ignoring you from now on. In my edit summary I only spoke of policy as matter of fact and told the editor to refer to the talk page. There was nothing in my edit summary that insulted the editor. In deed, the editor was being rather insulting to the Serers in her edit on the talk page and I told her not to do that in a firm way but found no need to use vulgarity as you did in the RfA. Now, you are more than welcome to post on my talk page if you have something important you wish to speak to me about. Not to use it to pass insults. Tell me again, as an administrator haven't you got something important to do with your time or are you just here for insults and for my entertainment? Ne vous embêtez pas à répondre à cela. Je ne suis pas intéressé. Allez et faites quelque chose d'utile. Cordialement. Tamsier (talk) 15:57, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

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Thank you for letting me know. I will sort them out.Tamsier (talk) 16:18, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Well said

Nicely put, replied to the page. Clarificationgiven (talk) 14:42, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

You welcome.Tamsier (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Trying again

Tamsier, I'm trying very hard to work with you, even though you have decided my 2nd article edit somehow reflects the next 41,000+ article edits I made (and even that one had a source, I just failed to add it, but cut a newbie some slack). I spend a lot of time adding good sources to articles, even articles I have no interest in but have run across through working on vandalism, copyright violations, etc, simply because I think that our articles need reliable sources. You and I both agree that material does not have to be online and we both like books as sources. I know you said you wouldn't reply at DRN, but it would be nice if we could resolve the problem of a better way to refer to what is called in our articles "Raampa pictographs" by working together. And although you may think you answered my question about them, you never told me where they are located or offered any other name for this rock art (a nice neutral way to refer to them). I'm not even convinced that you actually are insisting that they be called "Raampa pictographs." You seem to have gotten it into your head that I'm the enemy, but I'm not. I do believe strongly not only in sourcing but in keeping articles NPOV and avoiding original research. You also seem more willing to accept a deep time depth for Serer culture than I am (because I know of no other cultures where any serious scholar has suggested such a deep time depth). It should be possible to work all of this out, but if you continue to attack me - suggesting I don't believe in using sources, saying I'm canvassing (that's a complete misunderstanding of what we mean by canvassing), accusing me of bad faith, etc., we will get nowhere, which isn't in the interests of Wikipedia. And please note, I have never used my Admin tools in this discussion. Do you think that perhaps the fact that I have about 39,000 more edits than you have might give me some credibility? I'm not always right about everything, I may have dropped the ball on some edit, but I'm not new at this. Ok, I've said enough, it's up to you if you want to continue to be confrontational or if you want to cooperate. Dougweller (talk) 11:44, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

You are doing it again! You keep misrepresenting me as usual. I have told you at DRN that I have made it explicitely clear that depth partains to proto-Serers. I thought I have explicitely stated that in the timeline which you co-edited. So I am somewhat confused as to why you keep on misrepresenting me, not just once or twice, but on several instances. This has to stop. I am more than willing to work with anybody interested developing African related articles (a small segment of the Wiki project). But this thing has to stop. Your knowledge of history seems to be European based (or North Africa to some extend). My specialist is Serer religion, Serer, Senegambia and African history (especially but not exclusively West West African history) and some knowledge of archaeology. I have made that absolutely clear in my user page (and the discussion above by another editor) which you are entitled to refer to. You were the one who added the unsourced content to Wikipedia. I only brought it up to the discussion at DRN when you started going on about sourcing especially having found out you were trying to canvass against me. I have repeatedly told you in the query I raised at FTN that the 1971 work referred to it as Raampa, but it is treated within the general context of Serer symbols and symbolism. Others referred to them as Serer symbols. I have pointed you out to a reliable source which you are entitled to buy or borrow from your local library. At this juncture, that is the best I can do for you. What I am certain is that, I will not be bullied or houded from the project. When you are really ready to work with me, by all means write me a note and I will be more than deligted to have you on board. I thought that was the case per our above discussion. However, this Eurocentric view that Sub-Saharan Africa cannot have a civilisation I find rather offensive. Tamsier (talk) 17:18, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, proto-Serers. My point still stands - what other living cultures are said to have that sort of time depth? As for un-sourced content, are you still referring my 2nd ever edit to an article (which clearly had a source, I just didn't cite it). My post to Jorgath was not an attempt to canvas but I will let Jorgath say what he saw it as when he returns. I'm at a loss as to why you can't tell me where this rock art is that you say was referred to as Raampa in 1971. Please, can't you just tell me? Is it really not mentioned in the literature since 1971? And are you going to insist that we call it "Raampa pictographs".

If you you look at Great Zimbabwe you will see I've been trying to keep the article from saying it was built by anyone else but the local people. It is possible that you disagree with me about the parameters of a civilisation, which is something quite different from a culture - it means according to our article "The level of advancement of a civilization is often measured by its progress in agriculture, long-distance trade, occupational specialization, a special governing class and urbanism. Aside from these core elements, a civilization is often marked by any combination of a number of secondary elements, including a developed transportation system, writing, standardized measurement, currency, contractual and (tort-based) legal systems, characteristic art and architecture, mathematics, enhanced scientific understanding, metallurgy, political structures, an astronomical and religious understanding."

But we can't work together as long as your are going to make all these accusations against me, and I guess you might see my continual pleas for information and hounding, although I am trying to help and be constructive so far as I'm concerned. Dougweller (talk) 18:37, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

And African indeed have many of these long before the European's arrival. Indeed, the aim was to write on Serer law (religious and land law), medicine, philosophy, agriculture, etc. That was the aim before the daggers came out. The reason I and other scholars can write on these Serer religious issues is because the Serers (not all) are the most traditional of the Senegambia (and the Jola of course). The other ethnic groups are generally muslims whilst the Serer have preserved their religion and way of life. Of course there are some Serer muslims and christians. You also seem to be confusing two issues here and are still misrepresenting me. For the last time I will make two distinctions in simple English as I possible can :

1. Raampa - a pictographic or symbolic style of writing (not true writing but a proto-writing) (from the Saafi language)

2. Pangool - Serer saints or ancestral spirits. Any reference I have ever made to any rock art i.e. Tassili which I know is what you are referring to since we have had this discussion before, is made in reference to these beings (the cult of the Pangool).

I hope that is clearer. I hope. In deed I have no problem it being called Raampa, since that is the proper name for it in the Saafi language. Tamsier (talk) 19:37, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not misrepresenting you, I am perhaps misunderstanding you. And I've never disputed that Africans had many of the above before Europeans came, so I'm not clear why you even bring this up (or what you've said about religion, again something I haven't disputed - are you sure you aren't conflating me with another editor?). Can we instead look at Saafi people where you wrote "The Saafi also have a very rich an ancient culture of writing called the Raampa, and have contributed immensely to the old Serer Raampa writing tradition. The word Raampa itself comes from the Saafi language. It was a religious pictographic writing system used by the Serer people to which the Saafi are a sub-group of." (Note I'm not sure if the mean this to be sourced from Maranz, or if only "The Raampa tradition has also been adopted by some none-Serer ethnic groups" is meant to be sourced by Maranz. You say above this isn't true writing but a proto-writing. Have you found any experts on writing who discuss this Raampa proto-writing? Or is this all Maranz (I think this is a separate issue from Gravrand's interpretation of symbols, but I may be wrong there). You also illustrate Serer Raampa pictographs but they aren't mentioned in the text. Ah, I have just noticed I was looking at the original version of the article, you've replaced Maranz with Gravrand - which confuses me, who called Raampa a pictographic writing system? Maranz, Gravrand or both? I think we both want to get this right so no one is going to come along and challenge it. And again, it's something someone else will ask, where are the pictographs found? I know Gravrand must say, but I don't have the article. Dougweller (talk) 21:06, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

When I see a Wikipedia administrator pretending to be civil on one's talk page whilst at the sametime is hopping from one user talk page to the next to galvanized support against another user, it concerns me deeply. Even worst is throwing petrol into the flames by taking advantage of the disagreements between two users by trying to galvanize the support of the other for their own benefit[5] and [6] and [7]. In this regard, I will ignore your question above because it is now evident to me now you know exactly what I have been telling you all along not just in my query at FTN [8] but also my response at DRN [9]. Instead, I am going to answer the question you raised on your own talk page "...if Gravrand actually makes that claim, why not use him in the first place?". As a holder of many history books, sometimes I used google books search to point me to a particular book and page number using a "search word". Even if it is a snippit, it doesn't matter because if I have the book I already know I have the book and just need the page number rather than having to go through books after books and pages after pages. These Raampa images are not even article but a group of images mentioned in one or two lines in the body content. When the editor in question started to make a fuss and being disruptive, I added another ref just to keep the peace, see the discussion I opened up at DRN. That ref addition, required me to go through the ref where I know I have read it before. And that is the reason it took my time because that ref is not available on the net. That said, I would have preferred you to ask me that question directly rather than wasting my time all along. I find it extremely difficult to respect an editor even worst an administrator who try to use the friction between two editors for his/her own benefit and throwing petrol into the fire. I find it very difficult to have faith in an administrator that misrepresents the facts as I have pointed out here (above) and at DRN [10]. You also ommited the facts at DRN when you mentioned the query I've raised at FTN. My initial entry at FTN was query [11] following the your edit summary at Serer religion [12]. However, when you mentioned it at DRN, which I was going to do, you mentioned in a way that sounded very strange in your attempt to score points against me. In deed you have actually damaged yourself as I have indicated at FTN. This is how you entered it at DRN : Tamsier went to WP:FTN about phoenicia.org, a fringe website that also hosts some copyvio, and in my reply to him I've raised the issue of the name "Raampa pictgraphs", a name that seems to only appear at phoenicia.org and our articles.[13]. I went to FRN because I had reasons to doubt your judgement and objectivity needed to get the proper advice from the "horses mouth". That would have been the end of it for me after you directed me to the 2008. I was quite happy with that and since I had already removed the external link and already added another WP:RS, there was no issue. However, you were still determined to wage war against me just like you did even after being told by editor who oversaw the DRN discussion that they can speak French and have gone throw Serer articles and by large, the references I have cited support the claims. That was after your request (another page you have hounded me to when I was just expressing thanks to the guy for volunteering his time and overseeing the discussion) Thanks for your time. Everyone makes mistakes at some point, but I have no faith in an administrator that hounds, canvas, misrepresent facts, etc. Since you are not open to recall, there is no point asking for your recall criteria. This is one of those where the normal channels had to be followed. You had lost all trust and credibility that I may have had for you. You must be desysopped. Tamsier (talk) 13:46, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

The long and the short of it is that you refuse to answer my question and instead continue to make attacks on me. If you think I should be desysopped take me to WP:ANI. If you think I'm hounding, etc. take me there also. What I see above is a confrontational editor who will not answer legitimate questions. Dougweller (talk) 15:10, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

I have tried to work with you. In deed I really wanted to work with you because of our apparent shared passion in history and archaeology. As evident in this discussion [14] on my talk page and even after the thread you started against my contributions on the Wiki Project Archaeology. In spite of all of that, I still gave you the benefit of the doubt and was willing to work with you. However, we cannot work together because how you go about things. I have not been confrontational at all. And my response above and the diffs demonstrate that I have answered the question and you know I have answered the question. Everything I have said about you is backed up by a diff. You will also notice that after you have gone to French Wiki and literally bad mouth me in another user's French talk page in English ([15]) I responded in English so that you know exactly what I was saying and told the editor : I will not bad mouth Dougweller but if you want to know what is going on you may refer to so and so diffs. You see, I did not find the need to bad mouth you there (as you did against me). That is class.Tamsier (talk)

But you have been 'bad mouthing' me, accusing me of bullying, hounding canvassing, etc. I made sure that the French editor had a link to this discussion, saying "To be fair I should give you the link to the discussion on Tamsier's talk page[2] so you can see his views as he represents them, not just my interpretation. Please note that although he accuses me of bullying, hounding and canvassing. I've done none of these, but Tamsier's 5 blocks last year include blocks for "disruptive editing: permanent ideologically driven edit-warring; battleground POV attitude" "Disruptive editing: including harassment, edit warring, incivility" and sock puppetry". The only thing I wrote on the French editor's talk page that could be considered critical was to mention your block record, and that was to defend myself against your personal attacks, which seems only reasonable. Your accusations of vandalism at Talk:Serer religion(apparently referring not just to the IP) seem confrontational. Yet with all of that, I've still tried to stay in dialog with you and to come to some sort of agreement. Where I've thought your editing had problems I've tried to make my reasons clear. What you see as misrepresentation I see as misunderstanding. What you see as disruptive in another editor I see as a content dispute, not disruptive editing as you suggest (which is a form of vandalism). Disagreeing with you is not bullying or hounding. Of course I got in touch with the person who started the dispute review, but the other editor, to my surprise, came to me. I've never interacted with either of them before so far as I know. And whatever you think of me, there are still problems that have been raised that need fixing. Dougweller (talk) 16:01, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

By the way, if you were under the impression I added unsourced material about proto-Berbers at Bafour, that's wrong. I added a source but I didn't notice that when I clicked 'insert' it ended up at the beginning of the section. I've fixed that and I'm glad you found another source. I did some rewording to make it NPOV, added a source that you used to say something about oral tradition, and found a source (the same one I used before) to back up the bit about being there in the neolithic, something you seem to agree with. I still think I'll remove Rake as not an RS. Dougweller (talk) 16:17, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Keep digging. Give a man a rope [16].Tamsier (talk) 16:22, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I thanked you for adding that reference and perhaps I should have thanked you for removing the one you did as it didn't back the claim. But I'm not clear what that has to do with ropes. Dougweller (talk) 16:41, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

You might want to respond

at Talk:Saafi people. Dougweller (talk) 17:51, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Done.Tamsier (talk) 01:47, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

EDIT: You are the biggest POV editor I have ever seen on Wiki. Not only do you insert POV, but you are also a liar. You go onto Serer related article talk pages lying about me (rather than just editing articles) when you have removed substantial sourced content from reliable sources and inserted your POV. You use one source as scripture (The State Must Be Our Master of Fire... by Dennis C Galvan) and plaster it all over Serer related articles. You take his writing as scripture just because he is a White American like yourself. You removed many french sources and tried to discredit Henry Gravrand who is more respected and notable as well as reliable than Galvan at least when it comes to either Serer or African history. Although I respect Galvan, he has no background in Serer or Senegambian history never mind culture other than that book he wrote, which is actually to do with the Serer Lamanic system and land. You misrepresented Issa Laye Thiaw when re-writing the etymology of the Serer people, and to back up your POV, you cite Galvan who was merely repeating what Issa Laye Thiaw (never mind Cheikh Anta Diop and other linquists and historians) has just discredited. You confuse and misrepresent Janke Wali Sane (a 19th century king of Kabu) to Maysa Wali Jon (14th century king of Sine) in your attempt to advance your own POV against the battle of Troubang (by saying it never existed when in fact I have the full article Alioune Sarr) with the full notes by Charles Becker whilst you only see a former PDF snippit. In your edit summaries and elsewhere you state or alude that the Serers never existed prior to the 11th century (LOL!). What a joke. The removal of substantial sources (never mind the tagging of Serer articles willy nilly) to wage a vandetta against me is not only foolish and destroys Wikipedia, it is unscholarly. Something you know nothing about. In reference to Ndiadiane Ndiaye in Serer history (medieval era to present) which you changed to Serer history, you said I am making reference to a modern source (i.e. Samba Diop). In fact, the first epic of Ndiadiane was recorded by the French governor of Goree in Senegal (in the 1700s) - Alexandre Le Brasseur and reproduced by Jean Boulègue in his book Le grand Jolof pp 25-6. Apart from the oral tradition, every written record about Ndiadiane (specifically) originated from Alexandre's work because it is the ealiest written source specifically about Ndiadiane and the Jolof Empire. You were lying when you said early Arab and European sources". There were no early Arab sources about Ndiadiane Ndiaye. The early Arab sources are to do with the Ghana Empire and the Mali Empire (not Jolof and Ndiadiane specifically). When historians talk about Arab sources in reference to Jolof or Ndiadiane, they are merely extrapolating. The earliest documented sources specifically about these (apart from the oral tradition of Senegambia) came from European sources, not Arab. However, you were more interested in pedalling your POV and lying about me in talk pages including the Almoravid Dynasty's talk page (just because I participated in a discussion there), than finding out the real history. Furthermore, my religion is none of your bloody business and I do not appreciate you going to the Serer creation myth talk page (saw the fact tag you added) among others and saying I am a devout follower of Serer religion, therefore blah blah blah... By you own silly rationale, a muslim cannot edit any article relating to muslims e.g. Islam etc; a Jew cannot edit Judaism, etc. What a joke you are. You also been around spreading the same POV by saying the majority of Serers are muslims. Just because one or two source (one of which is unreliable) says so, when most reliable sources including Martin Klein, Islam and Imperialism in Senegal - Sine Saloum among others regard the Serers as devout Animist/Pegans/most tradition who adhere to the Serer religion, and when they convert to the main religions it is Christianity (not Islam) they convert to. That was already discussed back in 2011 I think and a consensus was reached. Again you didn't care but merely interested in your own POV and vandetta which you have taken against Serer articles. You are not worthy of my time. If people like you are the ones not only administering Wiki but also editing it (especially subjects your know nothing about and do not care), I am glad I leaving this project. Thank goodness. By the way, the dubious source you have used to state that the Kingdom of Saloum was a Serer/Wolof kingdom when almost every reliable source state quite clearly that it was a Serer kingdom (which you have deleted including the sources) I find laughable. I can perhaps ignore all your other foolishness but this one really takes the biscuit (LOL). You should not be editing article. The sources stating quite clearly (never mind the oral tradition, even Wolof oral tradition) it is Serer kingdom are so many and easy to get hold of. However you were not interested in that, you were interested in your POV and vandetta.Tamsier (talk) 10:05, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

My RfA

Thank you for participating in my RfA. I really appreciate your comments there — one of the qualities I value most in people is honesty. I want to hold myself to such a standard, and I'm pleased that you feel I have met it. Yours was a very interesting and reassuring comment, one which has shown me how much I have improved as an individual. Up until recently, very few people I know of would have referred to me as confident and straightforward. =)

Take care. Master&Expert (Talk) 12:07, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

• You welcome. I think you were robbed. We need people like you for admin role. Hope you are not deterred and will stand again. Best of luck. Tamsier (talk) 12:16, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

A bowl of strawberries for you!

Nice work on the Lingeer Fatim Beye article. Kaldari (talk) 22:10, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh thanks Kaldari. Glad you like it. Thanks.Tamsier (talk) 23:28, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Tempplate problem

The inclusion of the Serer religion template on the Battle of Logandème's page is problematic because the page has nothing to do with religion, and including "Serers" at the top of the infobox doesn't change that. Indeed, the name of the template is Serer religion, so you are being disingenuous here. There is already a Serer topics template which is at the bottom of the page.

To me the Serer religion template actually seems quite biased since, from what I've been able to tell, the majority of Serers are either Muslim or Christian and this template tells readers that all Serers only follow their traditional religion. Eladynnus (talk) 03:40, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

First, learn to spell "Tempplate" (template) properly. Second, Serers who are Muslims or Christians have been addressed in their respective articles. That has already been done long before you even started editing using your user name, so don't bring me your nonsense and accusations of disingenuous. This is the second time I told you. If you have a problem addressing people without trying to insult them, don't post on my talk page again, in fact, don't address me again until you have learn to communicate properly. Let this be a warning. You could have easily come here and expressed your views in a civil manner, but you deliberate decided not to as you have done in the Serer religion talk page and at DRN when I reported you. That template is titled Serers and Serer religion, not Serers and Islam or Serer and Christianity. You are more than welcome to create those if you so wish. The Serers are an ethnoreligious group (i.e. those Serers who adhere to the tenets of Serer religion as stated as where appropriate) and as such, the template is in accordance with similar templates such as Jews and Judaism, etc. Just so you know, before I created the template I checked similar templates in order to determine the standard in English Wiki, so don't come here again posting your insults. Your keen interest in Serer articles all of a sudden compared to Brazilian articles I find fascinating, though I welcome it if it is in good faith. Take heed of my advise and use your time on Wiki properly [17]. You have been warned. Tamsier (talk) 04:06, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Masonry

Sorry, I didn't know if the word was "masonry" or "missionary". It would drastically change the meaning of the sentence - did France force Sine to allow permanent French buildings in its territory, or was it being forced to allow the establishment missions? I thought it better to leave the word for you to correct. Eladynnus (talk) 03:00, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

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That paper

I've replied - I'm not sure what 1971 refers to but the published paper seems to be Psychopathologie Africaine, 1973, vol. IX, 2, 237-265. If you can provide quotes from the 1971 paper we can find if it's in the published paper. Dougweller (talk) 17:40, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Hello. There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Of course there is. Tamsier (talk) 10:05, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Mentorship

Hello Tamsier. Given the situation at ANI and that you're facing another block that is supposed to prevent further incivility in the future, I wanted to give you an opportunity to accept mentorship. I've never mentored anyone before, but I am willing to take on the task if you are. Because you are facing a community block, I can't guarantee that accepting mentorship will stop it. That's for the community to decide. However, if the community does defer a block in favor of mentorship for me, then I'll expect you to be an optimistic but disciplined student, willing to learn and wanting to improve your interaction with the community. That means that should mentorship fail, the block may be reconsidered. I'd specifically like to work on your problem solving and dispute resolution skills. I have zero interest in Africa and no cultural biases. I promise that if you accept mentorship, I will give you an honest opinion and I will be open minded to your opinion in conflicts. It's up to you, but I strongly suggest accepting.--v/r - TP 14:59, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Hello TParis, I logged on to find out what was happening at ANI and realised that I've got a message from you. I would like to thank you for the offer above but a special thanks to you and few others at the ANI who saw something different in me than what I have been portrayed as at the ANI by most contributors to the discussion (most of whom I have never even conversed with other than seeing their edits on the talk pages of Dougweller (talk) and Drmies (talk) from time to time when I was posting on their talk pages). Anyway thank you so much for your offer, however I have been contemplating semi-retiring since last month and few days ago practically placed the semi-retired template on my user page (see the diffs to the dates) — partly due to personal commitments and partly frustration with the project. The ANI was the last nodge and showed me that the interest I used to have for English Wiki no longer exists. I will not be returning here, but thank you. Tamsier (talk) 18:06, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

August 2012

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 3 months for persistent tendentious editing and personal attacks. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding below this notice the text {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}, but you should read the guide to appealing blocks first. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:48, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Well thank you Future Perfect. How rude of me not to acknowledge your block several months ago. But I guess later is better than never. In closing the ANI discussion, you referred to me as a tendentious editor and personal attacker. You and I have a long history hence why you were so keen to close the discussion and carry out the sanction yourself. We both know why. This long history was made worst when I dared you challenge you on your ridiculous decision and abuse of power (something you are well known for [18](also see diffs below) against another editor [19] (just over a month before my block). You accuse me of tendentious editing and personal attacks, yet that is what you are known for (including incivility, abuse of power, threatening to desysop another administrator), and have been known for a long time, which resulted in you being blocked [20] by the Arbitration Committe [21], [22] and almost temporarily desysopped [23]. Note that it is about the same subject matter (Macedonia) I challenged you on a month or so before you blocked me. The list of things found against you by Arbcom are far too many for me to go through. Here are just more of your bad behavior and interpretation of policy : [24], [25], black mailing an admin who made an error [26] and when that admin does not dance to your tune you threatened to have them desysopped [27]. Inappropriate deletion [28] is just one your many problems Future Perfect. At least I can say that I have never been blocked by ArbCom. You cannot say the same. Being blocked by a group of administrators known for abusing their power and bending the rules I find laughable. Being blocked by the Arbitration Committe on the other hand is a serious matter. You should know. I will preserve your block for posterity. Oh by the way, even though my block has expired and I can come back to editing articles, I will no longer be part taking in this project, but thank you for the entertainment you have provided me over the years. Tamsier (talk) 10:05, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Random thanks for Serer creation myth

In my own private research I stumbled upon this article that you recently wrote. It is a great example of what just one editor can do with Wikipedia and your scholarship is to be commended. On perusing the edit history to see who to thank, I noticed that you were recently blocked for bad behaviour. While I cannot fathom why you made such remarks, I really hope you can return to editing after the block is up and take WP:CIV and WP:NPA to heart, as I would hate to see Wikipedia lose an editor of such distinctive content. ThemFromSpace 02:17, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

This is true, this is one editor who has really done a lot for Serer people. I mean the volumes of text Whew. I never knew about them until now. Again shame about the bias, Islamophobia, and the bad behavior, cuz that almost washes out the great work. --Inayity (talk) 08:30, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Jews of the Bilad es-Sudan

Greetings. Sorry for the late reply. I haven't done much editing on Wiki in recent years. To answer your question. The reason is that this article is not about one period but instead several. The Jews who were in the region, or even the stories of there being Jews in said region, were not from one direct group. Jewish history is generally written based on the location of each group because of differences in language and culture. Because the article covers several periods of non-connected migrations it is necessary to break up the article into the various groups. Since each group on its own does not have a large enough history base for seperate articles it is generally accepted that one discussion can cover them all. That is the history of Jews in the region is connected in how it is documented: fragmented mentions in connected documents, trade records found in one location, and stories from particular members of brouder West African Ethnic groups who have a history of having ancestors from said groups.--EhavEliyahu (talk) 12:17, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Call for Wikipedians in Residence in Africa

Hello,

I hope you are well and thriving!! WikiAfrica has just put out a call for two Wikipedians in Residence. One in Cape Town at WikiAfrica, at the Africa Centre; and the other for WikiAfrica Cameroon in Douala, at doual’art. If you are interested, please contact either Marilyn [marilyn.doualabelldoualart.org] for the WikiAfrica Cameroon call or Isla [islahfafricacentre.net] for the WikiAfrica position in Cape Town.

If you are not interested in applying, I would be very grateful if you could spread this call far and wide among your networks to ensure that both projects get excellent candidates. Here is the link for the information page: http://www.wikiafrica.net/two-wikipedians-in-residence-for-africa/

Best regards, Islahaddow

(This message was sent using Lucia Bot at 22:34, 16 November 2012 (UTC))