User talk:Takeaway/Archive 2: Complaint

Your recent complaints on the Help desk

In the first place, I suggest that you read WP:AGF and Commons:COM:MELLOW.

I am sorry that you took offense at what Anan did and said. As you now realize, what he did did not hurt your photo, but I can understand your mistake in thinking that it did. In fact his sharing your image on Commons was something that Wikipedia recommends and (I hope you now understand) quite in line with common courtesy. He misunderstood your complaint—partly because English is not his native language and partly because you didn’t express yourself too well. (Even I was not sure until you clarified that your sole objection was that you thought his change would require re-linking.) And he in turn did not express himself too well—again partly because he is foreign.

I think it was a big mistake for you to go back to his talk page after he deleted his contributions. It seems to me that the only reason you would have had to go there then would have been to thank him for the deletion and/or to apologize for the hostile tone of your posts. In light of his request for you to stay off his talk page, even that would have been a mistake. IMO if there was breach of common courtesy in your exchanges, it was that. I assume that was what he meant when he mentioned “stalking.” Of course that’s not what “stalking” means, but remember he is a foreigner.

He deletes his contributions; he apologizes; he retracts any words you complain of; and here you still aren’t satisfied. (By the way, you are factually wrong: I would not have been offended.) When you win, you should be magnanimous. OK? —teb728 t c 23:46, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I wish this whole thing hadn't happened.

I did realise very soon that the way I had formulated my initial request here, had been fairly abrupt due to my alarm that it would need re-linking and seeing no apparent reason for him to have done what he did. After his first sarcastic reply, it was therefore that I elaborated upon it in my second entry, still hoping that I would receive in some way a reason for his action. I only received more sarcasm. I really did assume good faith in trying to communicate with him but was insulted twice for it and still did not receive any reasoning for moving the image to Commons. I think that your suggestion to read WP:AGF and Commons:COM:MELLOW would also be applicable for him.

The reason why I went back to his talk pages even after he apologised in here and had undone his contributions, was to defend myself against this new entry of his in his talk page after he had deleted the rest of the text: 'I am deeply sorry. So please, please stop stalking me.--Anan (talk) 11:40, 3 August 2008 (UTC)'. On the one hand he apologises and at the same time accuses me of stalking him, which I was not doing. This entry has since been deleted from his talk page. The next time I returned to the talk page was when he was implying that I might be evil.

I can not know what his grasp of English is, all I have to go on is what he has written. With each apology, he had written an unjust accusation. For that reason only did I return to reply to those accusations until he finally stopped accusing me of things I haven't done. It was then that I complied with his request not to contact him any longer. To be called 'a stalker' and implied of being 'evil' seems fairly discourteous to me and caused me to return and defend myself against these accusations.

English is not my native language either. I am also, as you put it, 'a foreigner'. User:Takeaway 13.32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I am surprised to see how much you have in common with Anan: You are both non-native English speakers. You both have a problem communicating well. And you both take improper offense at the other’s miscommunication. The big difference: He let you win despite the fact that he was 100% right (except for his taking offence). You, on the other hand, did not act like a good winner.

When you had won there was no need to defend yourself further. He had asked you to stay off his talk page, and you should have done so. It is really very like what you accused him of: There was no formal rule keeping you off his page—just common courtesy. (There is of course a formal rule against saying, as you did, “you are a rude person.”)

It is not really important, but you misread his comments. In the first place, before his 14:38 post nothing he said remotely resembled sarcasm. Perhaps you took the extreme politeness of his earlier posts as sarcasm: I take it as civility. Moreover, he did not say you were evil and trying to make him sick but just the opposite: “Otherwise I will be mentally ill. I believe you are not so evil that you make sick” (my emphasis). His expression is of course awkward, but there was really no reason for you to respond—particularly when his clear point was that you should stay away. Finally, as I said before, his badly expressed mention of “stalking” was a reference to your persistent visits to his talk page despite his requests that you stay away.

By the way, do you see that in his posts on the Help desk, he was doing the same thing as you: “defending himself”? It’s another similarity: You both seem to feel an excessive need to “defend yourselves.”

I agree that he might also profit from reading Commons:COM:MELLOW. Indeed, my original draft was addressed to you both on the Help desk. I decided not to post it because I thought it best to keep you two apart. I may still leave him a separate message about it, but I think it better not to mention you on his talk page for a while. —teb728 t c 22:37, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you and I see differently in what we perceive as sarcasm. I do not think we can resolve this difference. Seeing that, according to you, Anan and I have a lot in common, Anan and I might have similar views on this subject but then of course, we also might not.

Saying that one believes that someone is "not so evil" as Anan has done, still implies that that someone might be evil. Hence my reply to him: "Now you accuse me of maybe being evil!" (my emphasis).

The only reason for me to return to his talk page (and therefore, in your words, "not acting like a good winner") was because after he asked me to stay off his page, he had written there "please stop stalking me" (which I was not doing) and later again because he implied that I might be "evil". I think many people would want unjust and unfounded remarks like these seen rectified. I do not see this as an excessive need to defend myself. As for your assertion that Anan also seems to have an excessive need to defend himself, I would suggest you ask him.

Unlike you, I don't see this whole situation in terms of winning and losing. It has just been a sordid mess which has already taken too long in it's untangling. User:Takeaway 00.52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)