User talk:Stephanie3460/TouchdowntheBigRedBear

Article

I've created the article at Touchdown (mascot). All future additions should be made there, and all talk page discussion has been moved to the article's talk page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alxtronic (talk • contribs) 23:17, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Touchdown I Updated (and a question about sources)

Hey everyone! I started the article and added my test for Touchdown I. I didn't include the in-text citations yet or proofread it, but I plan on doing that later tonight. Since the only source we really have for the history is John Foote's book, do you think it's ok that I only cite one source in the article? I feel like this is a special exception since we don't have access to Daily Sun Articles (as far as I know), and his book is really the only documented history of the mascots. I have tried to search online for others, but all other accounts that I cam across were based on his book.

I also have a question about some of the wording in what I posted. I am unsure of the the wording "which quickly became a suspertition for many dedicated fans" from the second paragraph. Can someone look at that and tell me what you think? Thanks!

One last thing! I have been adding all new posts on the talk page to the top of the talk page. I figured this is good because then we can see any new changes easily. Is this ok? Stephanie3460 (talk) 20:01, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I think it's fine to only use the book for the history sections. If we look for individual Sun articles from the early 20th century, we're basically duplicating Foote's original research. Posting things on top of the talk page also seems fine. Jws325 (talk) 23:52, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Pages for Other Mascots

I found an article on Wikipedia that provides links to every page about college mascots. Navigating to different mascots' pages might help us if we are concerned with the style of our article or need some examples. Here is the article! We should also remember to put a link in that article when we are finished so that our article gets more exposure (and simply to update that article). Stephanie3460 (talk) 04:35, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Cornell WikiProject

Hey group! I added this subpage to the Cornell WikiProject under the "article request and ideas" subsection of the "articles" portion of the WikiProject. I also posted on the talk page about our assignment and wrote that any help towards our article would be appreciated. Hopefully someone will see my post contribute to this page!
I also structured this talk page a little differently by making the article proposal only one section so that we could use this more as a talk page while we are writing the article. Let me know what you think. Stephanie3460 (talk) 16:22, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Name

Hey guys. What do we think the name of the article should be? I don't think "Touchdown the Big Red Bear" is appropriate, since it's not the actual name of any of the bears, just a descriptor. I think it should be "Touchdown (Mascot)" or "Touchdown (Bear)" and show up in the disambiguation page for "Touchdown". Additionally, "Big Red Bear" should probably redirect to the article. What do you guys think? Alxtronic (talk) 01:15, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

What about "Touchdown (Big Red Bear)". I agree that page for Big Red Bear and the disambiguation page for touchdown should link to it. Jws325 (talk) 17:49, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I am not opposed to "Touchdown (Big Red Bear)" but I think "Touchdown (mascot)" would be better suited for people who do not know what a "Big Red Bear" is. Instead, I suggest we mention the fact that the mascot is a "Big Red Bear" in the intro section of the article. Stephanie3460 (talk) 04:29, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Writing the sections for Touchdown I and II

Here's a rough outline of what will go into the sections about Touchdown I and Touchdown II. Please look at them and let me know if you think the focus of my outline is approriate. I will add more detial when I write the section in full.

Touchdown I

I. The acquisition of Touchdown I

1. Purchased by the Cornell University Athletics Association (CUAA)
2. Purchased using money from football subscriptions in 1915
3. $25 excluding shipping from New Town, Maine
4. This was the first year Cornell went undefeated in football

II. Presence at games

1. Appeared in all games tethered on field with a high step ladder
2. Climbed the goal post before each game (considered good omen)

III. Touchdown's appearance in the Harvard game

1. Touchdown kidnapped by Harvard students posing as Cornellians
2. Touchdown was later found by Cornell trainer Frank Sheehan before the game
3. (Cornell football defeated Harvard for the first time in history)

IV. Touchdown's escapades at Atlantic City

1. Broke free in a taffy shop and ran loose on the boardwalk
2. Ran into the ocean and was rescued by two football players

V. Touchdown I at UPenn (Thanksgiving)

1. Slapped UPenn husky across the head and knocked him out
2. Last game of undefeated season

VI. The end of Touchdown's stay in Ithaca

1. Talk of sending to a zoo in Rome, but no records
2. Sent back to Old Town, Maine

Touchdown II

I. The acquisition of Touchdown II

1. Not sure, but Sun published an article that claimed it was from Maine

II. Presence at the games

1. Did not make first appearance until a month into the season
2. less "friendly" than Touchdown I

II. Disappointment/Desertion

1. Cornell Football was not nearly as good as in 1915
2. Touchdown II deserted after the last game of the season on UPenn's field

III. Life after Cornell

1. Touchdown traveled with UPenn to the Rose Bowl in Pasadena
2. Unknown after Rose Bowl

Should the history be less anecdotal? The most interesting things about Touchdown I are definitely the stories about him, so that is why I chose this style. I can take some things out, though. What do you think about the IV section of Touchdown I (Atlantic City)? Should I take that out? Thanks! Stephanie3460 (talk) 15:18, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I think this history looks pretty solid. It is certainly anecdote-heavy, but I feel like ridiculous anecdotes are the main body of history for any mascot. Jws325 (talk) 16:01, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Writing the sections for Touchdown III and The Bearless Years

Touchdown III

I. The acquisition of Touchdown III

Due to World War One capturing the attention of Cornell's students and faculty, there was no mascot for the 1917 and 1918 football seasons. Once campus life returned to normal in 1919, Montana-based Cornell alumnus R. H. Barney '17 donated a local bear for use as the football team's mascot. Dubbed Touchdown III, the bear's arrival at Cornell was notable enough to receive mention in the New York Times.

II. First impressions

The Cornell community's reception of Touchdown III was generally positive, although the mascot had powerful enemies. The Cornell Daily Sun reported that Touchdown III was "the admiration of the entire [football] squad, as well as the coaching staff," echoing the Ithaca community's general sentiment. However, Cornell University Athletic Association head Romeyn Berry hated all bears, describing them as "disgusting . . . dangerous, ill-tempered, and unbelievably troublesome" and characterizing the original Touchdown as "hungry, mean, ill-bred, and dangerous." Thus, Berry was no fan of the new mascot.

III. Touchdown III's escapades at Cornell

During the 1919 football season, Touchdown III was involved in a few minor events on Cornell's campus. The week after the season began, Touchdown III broke free from his living quarters on Schoellkopf Field. Authorities and volunteers found the bear napping in a nearby grassy field, prompting a humorous Sun article entitled "Touchdown III Loses at Game of Hide and Seek." Later on, Touchdown III led a parade of Cornell student demonstrators demanding higher salaries for professors. Touchdown III's involvement in this parade produced a classic photograph of the bear gnawing on a banner inscribed "I'm For Them Too."

IV. Touchdown III fades from public view

Late in the season, the Cornell football team headed to New York City for a game against Dartmouth College. Although the team stayed at the Hotel Pennsylvania, they rushed Touchdown III directly to the Cornell Club on 44th Street, where a smoker for Cornell Alumni was taking place. This is the last known location of Touchdown III. Although legend states that he was sent to a zoo in Akron, Ohio, Touchdown III's true fate is currently unknown.

The Bearless Years

I. Period without a mascot

After Touchdown III's departure in 1919, Cornell was left without a mascot for its football team. Cornell would not adopt a new mascot until 1939. This long period without a mascot can be at least partially attributed to bear-hating CUAA head Romeyn Berry, whose tenure lasted until 1935. Some blame may also belong to Gil Dobie, Cornell's football coach from 1920 to 1935, whose no-nonsense approach had little room for wildlife distractions.

II. Student movement to bring back Touchdown

In fall of 1934, Cornell students decided to hold a pre-game party (or "Hop") before the Cornell vs. Dartmouth football game. At this Hop, Touchdown was revived as a life-sized painting. After Cornell won the football game, students attributed the victory to Touchdown's symbolic return.

After Dartmouth, University of Pennsylvania was Cornell's next opponent. In an attempt to replicate the Dartmouth game's result, three Cornell undergrads drove to Burnet Park Zoo in Syracuse, New York and rented a bear as a temporary mascot. After the bear immediately destroyed the undergrads' trailer, Cornell students were forced to make do with Romeyn Berry dressed in a fur coat as the mascot for the pre-game Penn rally. However, the student movement to bring back a live bear mascot continued to gain steam. Students' desire for a new bear was echoed in the Sun the day after the Penn rally, further legitimizing growing pro-Touchdown sentiments.

III. Romeyn Berry staunchly opposes Touchdown's return

Although students were adamant about bringing back Touchdown, they encountered significant opposition, mainly from Romeyn Berry. In a 1934 Ithaca Journal article, Berry rejects students' request for a bear, arguing that they would tire of a new Touchdown after about a week. After stepping down from CUAA leadership in 1935, Berry penned a 1936 article in the Cornell Alumni News praising the fact that a bear had not been acquired for that year's football season. Even after his retirement, Berry harbored unchecked resentment for bears: his article referred to the previous Touchdown as a "disagreeable beast" characterized by a "fetid odor." But with Berry relieved from his CUAA position, he was no longer a factor in Cornell's mascot-related decisions.

Article Proposal

Topic

Why should this be a Wikipedia article?
We are going to create a Wikipedia article for the Cornell Mascot (the big red bear). Currently there is a small blurb written about the bear under the "History" section of the article "Cornell Big Red," but there is no article dedicated solely to the mascot. The (unofficial) mascot of Cornell was introduced in 1915 as a live bear. Three more living bears were brought to the campus in 1916, 1919, and 1939, and only some decades later did the bear return in the form of a costumed volunteer.

The history of "Touchdown" the big red bear is interesting, humorous, and unfamiliar to most students and faculty. It was first documented in John Foote's ('74) book "Touchdown: The Story of the Cornell Bear." Because it is very difficult to find much information about Touchdown the big red bear on the web, there should be a Wikipedia article to allow anyone to learn his basic history without needing to purchase the book.

Article Sections

What sections are you planning to write? How do you make sure the article is comprehensive and feasible within the time frame and resources you have?
We will discuss the history of the big red bear

History (1915-1938)

I. The first bear (Touchdown I)

II. Touchdown II

III. Touchdown III

IV. "The Bearless Years"

V. Touchdown IV

Story is particularly well documented in The Cornell Daily Sun. The Sun editorial board, if not directly responsible for Touchdown IV, was a co-conspirator with the Press Club, the social journalistic society that brought the bear to campus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alxtronic (talk • contribs) 17:52, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Alex - make sure to sign your posts in talk pages with four tildes. Thanks. LeshedInstructor (talk) 01:21, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

VI. The first appearance of the costume

Current Club

I. Funding (Class of 1970)

II. General Information

Recent Controversies

I. Petitions to make the big red bear the official mascot

There has been conversation about making "Touchdown" the official mascot of Cornell University. In Fall of 2011 the Student Assembly at Cornell University proposed the petition however it was denied.

II. The Red Man

Another unofficial mascot of Cornell University is "The Red Man" who is most likely an undergraduate student that dresses up in a red suit and entertains the crowd at different sporting events especially wrestling and soccer matches at Cornell University.

See Also

(Links to Cornell Athletics, etc.)

Other Article Elements

What other elements are you going to put in the article - side box, images, etc.? Where are you going to obtain the images or information for the side box?
A picture of the mascot should be in the side box, hopefully a copyright free image is available from the Cornell Sun, Cornell Athletics, or another organization; if not, maybe we can take one (or find a non-free image, which satisfies wikipedia's fair use policy. The Cornell athletics logo should also be included. That is already hosted on wikipedia and we can link to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alxtronic (talk • contribs) 03:09, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Try to find out who you could ask about getting free images from Cornell of the bear. Whatever is on Wikipedia has to be free and under the Creative Commons license. Gabriel Mugar could help you with figuring it out. There are images in the Cornell Big Red article that you could use - if they are there that means they are already under the Creative Commons license. LeshedInstructor (talk) 01:28, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

References

Initial list of 5 different sources for your article (e.g., not all from the same website)
http://www.cornell.edu/about/facts/faq_profile.cfm?id=916
http://www.cornellbigred.com/sports/2007/7/11/History.aspx
http://cornellsun.com/section/news/content/2009/11/02/big-red-bear-mascot-origins-date-back-early-1900s
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/sports/a-secret-no-more-local-men-share-cornell-mascot-memories/article_c187d04d-fa3b-5387-ab90-cb9ba7b263c4.html
Foote, John H. Touchdown: The Story of the Cornell Bear. Ithaca: Cornell University, 2008. Print.

This is a good initial set of references. Make sure that your references in the list are not Bare URLs, and that you get the Foote book so you can get useful information out of it. There is also a YouTube video with John Foote. It is licensed for Stanford so you need to see if you could use it, or it could be an external link or reference. LeshedInstructor (talk) 01:46, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Situating the article within the Wikipedia community

What other articles does it link to/from? Is it part of a WikiProject? Are there specific individuals in Wikipedia you will seek help from on this article?
Our article will link to and from these articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornell_Big_Red 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornell_University 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_college_mascots_in_the_United_States 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cornell_Daily_Sun (to only) 

It is not part of a WikiProject, and there are no specific people on Wikipedia we are seeking help from. This is because our subject is straightforward and relevant information is easily obtainable.

Fair enough, but remember that seeking help from specific Wikipedia editors will greatly enhance your article. Although your subject of the article is straightforward, except for the John Foote book, all other sources are Cornell-related, which might deem the article not notable or even promotional by other Wikipedians. Getting other Wikipedians to vouch for your article will better help you to retain the article and not have it deleted or merged into Cornell Big Red. There is a Cornell WikiProject that you might get help from. LeshedInstructor (talk) 01:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Division of labor

What will each group member do?
Tentative:
Stephanie: History 1+2
James: History 3+4
Alex: History 5+6
Emile: current club, recent controversies, see also/Notes Jws325 (talk) 16:02, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Good division of labor. Also make sure that some of you are more familiar with structure, formatting, styling, and following the other Wikipedia writing guidelines such as image licensing. LeshedInstructor (talk) 01:57, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Observer 1 Feedback

How interesting - this is incredibly relatable and pertinent to any Cornell student who has the slightest shred of school spirit. You seem to have done a lot of solid basic research, and have acknowledged where necessary that you plan to investigate further. Perhaps the anecdotal elements of the article should be under the umbrella categorization of "History and Notable Events," for example? This would avoid the pitfall of a less-than-factual article. Anyway, good job overall and cool topic choice. mollygk (talk) 22:45, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Instructor's Feedback

You have done a good job in defining this new article, what will go into it, and where you will obtain information about it. It could be very interesting for Cornellians as well as other people who are interested in university mascots to have this article up. Please see specific comments from me in the sections above. Good luck! LeshedInstructor (talk) 01:58, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Observer 2 Feedback

I think this is really great topic. I took a class called AMST 2001 The First American University last year. One of his lectures involved the history of Touchdown. The book we had to read for that lecture would be really useful for your article: Robert J. Kane. Good Sports: A History of Cornell Athletics (1992). Maybe look in pages 2-7, 24-26, 40-42, 296-307. Also, I think a section telling readers where they could go next for more Touchdown could be cool. You can actually request Touchdown to come to a function. Here is a link that I think could help you: http://www.bigredbears.com/ Vci28 (talk) 01:54, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Observer 3 Feedback

First off, I love your idea, and I believe that your proposal, outline, and discussion are developed in such a way that it looks like you will have more than enough information to make this article a significant contribution to the Wikipedia community. I think your history section will prove to be the most important section in your page, so I suggest you focus mainly on this section to make sure it is really accurate and outstanding. I believe Touchdown's rich history will prove to be attractive and interesting even to those who are not necessarily invested in the Cornell community, such as historians or mascot enthusiasts, which helps to satisfy the question of "Who cares?", and establish the article's notability. As recommended by our Wikipedia Ambassador on my group's page (we are also doing a Cornell themed topic), I think your article could be strengthened by trying to reference sources situated outside of the Cornell community (such as the book Observer 2 mentioned), in order to solidify this article's presence on Wikipedia, and avoid having it deleted. Overall, I think you guys have done a great job so far and I'm excited to see the finished product. Good luck! --Lms353 (talk) 13:45, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Observer Feedback 3

The outline so far looks great and you have a good list of resources. If you still need a copy of John Foote's book, I have a copy that I could let you borrow. He also has a website, touchdownthebear.com, that you could check out. I would even suggest contacting John Foote himself if you have any questions or would like to add him as an additional resource. He is still very active in Cornell (provided the Lab of Ornithology with a grant that allowed me to work for them and personally gave me a copy of his book), so I'm sure he'd be thrilled to help out! Again you guys have a lot of information and the article seems to be coming along really well! KellyD78 (talk) 02:13, 2 October 2012 (UTC)