User talk:Smallnslow

Willie Manning

Your edits to Willie Manning are unhelpful. Please read the WP:NPOV and WP:RS policies to learn how articles are to reflect a neutral point of view and be built from reliable sources. You repeatedly remove the lede statement that Manning is a convicted murderer on death row. That is a fact. It does not reflect any point of view. Your editing implies that he is not a convicted murderer, that he somehow just happened to wind up on death row, the way a person winds up in a wrong parking lot. You are pushing a point of view. Specifically, do not remove verifiable facts from the article and replace links to reliable sources with links to POV sources. Bundlesofsticks (talk) 04:44, 23 February 2014 (UTC) Thanks for your advice. I've read the pages. I noticed Wikipedia: Neutral Point of View – Words to Watch: Strive to eliminate expressions that… endorse a particular point of view (unless those expressions are part of a quote from a noteworthy source). Reliable sources don’t use words such as ‘a convicted murderer, or ‘murdered’, instead they say 'so and so was convicted of murder'. For instance, 'Associated Press, January 16 2011: Manning was also convicted and sentenced to death’; Washington Post, May 8, ‘Manning was convicted of Mississippi State University students’. In other words, reliable sources don't eliminate the possibility that there may be a wrongful conviction. Departing from this consensus of usage departs from neutrality, so, in fact, the language that you are using is not neutral. This issue is particularly important because of the position of this sentence at the beginning of the article - the chosen wording may influence the reader’s interpretation of the whole of the rest of the article. A quotation/ quotations from a well-established news source, such as from the two Associated Press articles that I used, would avoid the potential for a biased viewpoint to dominate the article. I also noticed two points in Wikipedia – identifying reliable sources. 1) News reporting from less-established outlets is generally considered less reliable for statements of fact. 2)Whether a specific news story is reliable for a specific fact or statement in a Wikipedia article will be assessed on a case-by-case basis.[reply]

The source that you've used for the Early Lifesection is from a less-established outlet so has a greater potential to be unreliable than if it were from a well-established outlet, like Associated Press. If it was a reliable news story it would demonstrate balance, but it doesn’t - it doesn’t include an alternative or mitigating view of Manning's early life. The article is therefore unreliable as a news story. I suggest you use a reliable source instead, or omit the text altogether. Smallnslow (talk) 00:06, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I will greatly scale back the "early life" section that you have identified as troublesome. As of now, I am unaware of any other reliable sources for Manning's early life. I reject the notion that the local newspapers in Starkville and Columbus are not reliable sources. The Washington Post doesn't cover murders in Mississippi. Furthermore, the phrase "is/was a convicted murderer" is a common one in the lede of articles about murderers on Wikipedia. See Ira Einhorn, Wayne Williams, Christopher Porco, Erwin James, Eric Naposki, Stacey Castor, Daniel Petric, Maurice Boucher, Duane Earl Pope, William Kemmler, Clarence Hill (murderer), Billy Bailey, Brian Steckel, and many others.Bundlesofsticks (talk) 02:23, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments, which I'm responding to: < I reject the notion that the local newspapers in Starkville and Columbus are not reliable sources.> Wikipedia does not state that such outlets are not reliable, only that they’re generally considered less reliable: Wikipedia states “News reporting from less-established outlets is generally considered less reliable for statements of fact.” The implication is that such sources should be treated with caution and scrutinized carefully, rather than necessarily not be used. Wikipedia states “Whether a specific news story is reliable for a specific fact or statement in a Wikipedia article will be assessed on a case-by-case basis”. In this case the article in question is unreliable as a news story because it makes no attempt at balance. Without appropriate balance it is, effectively, an opinion piece disguised as a news piece. Moreover, in depicting Manning negatively this story seems to support the view that he’s a murderer, which in Wikipedia’s terms is an ‘extraordinary claim’. Wikipedia states “Reliable sources must be strong enough to support the claim. A lightweight source may sometimes be acceptable for a lightweight claim, but never for an extraordinary claim.” < I will greatly scale back the "early life" section that you have identified as troublesome. As of now, I am unaware of any other reliable sources for Manning's early life.> It’s not enough to scale back your reference to this article. As an unreliable source used to support an extraordinary claim, all references to this article should be removed. <Furthermore, the phrase "is/was a convicted murderer" is a common one in the lede of articles about murderers on Wikipedia.> Wikipedia states ‘Wikipedia articles (or Wikipedia mirrors) are not reliable sources for any purpose.’ So your point here is invalid. It’s the language in reliable sources that’s relevant. Reliable sources use language that doesn’t exclude the possibility that Manning was wrongfully convicted. In order to be neutral, your language should conform with the language in reliable sources. Your language by these standards isn’t neutral – it’s biased. The wording needs to be changed.Smallnslow (talk) 12:37, 24 February 2014 (UTC) Wikipedia Biography of Living Persons policy states: Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Material should not be added to an article when the only sourcing is tabloid journalism. When material is both verifiable and noteworthy, it will have appeared in more reliable sources. I’ve removed everything related to a news outlet that appears to lack editorial control and judgment. This outlet published an extremely one-sided article that presented the subject negatively, at a time when well-established news outlets were focusing on a wider controversy about the subject. This constitutes tabloid journalism and should be removed. Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. I’ve removed everything that’s based on court records. BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone. I’ve altered the wording in the lead to make it neutral. Smallnslow (talk) 00:00, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You aren't following the policies I referred you to. There are now several editors keeping an eye on your edits to this article. Why don't you learn how to edit by working on something less controversial, like daisy? Bundlesofsticks (talk) 01:15, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Your last edit to this article removed pertinent information, but you said all you did was change a reference. Do not remove sourced information. Bundlesofsticks (talk) 09:43, 10 March 2014 (UTC) I’ve copied your most recent comment to the article Talk page. Please use the correct page in future when commenting about the article.Smallnslow (talk) 11:05, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

February 2014

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