User talk:Sikh historian/Archive01

Swarna Mandir

Dear Sikh Historian, why do you delete the reference to Golden Temple as Swarna Mandir ? I am from South India and this is how the temple is referred to in most of Sounth India. Ramanna.Sathyanarayana (talk) 10:27, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

sikh

Dear sikh historian. Why did you even delete the talk section , where you were asked certain questions. The questions and statements again are:

Any topic can be condensed into few major points. The section on sikh history did just that. Instead of appreciating it, you reverted the whole article back. By the way, there is already a detailed article on sikh history on wikipedia

In the introduction, a mention of the starting date of sikhism was very appropiate . Why did you revert that back ???

Why did you put the picture of victoria cross back. Is it a sikh award ???

Why is this article so full of names. whould not it be much more better to start a seperate article on famous sikhs, instead of filling this article with names.

Are you aware that every religion has many more famous people. The names don't help the article in any way.

Did you read the names you reverted back. many of these people are not even practising sikhs.

Do you know that the Iran crisis happened a generation back. Who remembers the Iran crisis ?? In todays article, with limited space, this mention is so irrelevant, and you reverted this iran crisis article back.

Do you fail to see, that this is a very unprofessional written article. Instead of appreciating someone's contribtion, and adding your own in a constructive way, you blindly reverted the article back.

If you pride yourself on being a historian, then stick to that. Let other people contribute in ways that they might be better than you. Editing is not being a historian.

Thanks, and now work towards the betterment of the article.

Read the two versions carefully, and then help and contribute

Re:relationship with Islam section

Hi Sikh historian - please discuss the material you intend to add on the talkpage prior to adding it. You see, both the relationship with Hinduism and Islam sections are a source of great controversy and need proper sources. This Fire Burns Always 01:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your compliments - it is true that Sikhism has a unique heritage and we must do our best to represent the truth. The Hinduism/Islam sub-sections are attempts to break down the religious structure, which contradicts the practical reality of Sikhism, which played a unifying role for the region's people who were absorbed in social and religious divisions. I think you better raise the point with user:Sukh, and then we can start a wider debate. Cheers, This Fire Burns Always 12:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I thank you! But you do overrate my contribution - just doing my best to write knowledgeable and accurate articles on Sikhism topics. This Fire Burns Always 14:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

If you so genuinely feel, I can only hope/pray that the wounds of 1984 will heal a bit more with this. This Fire Burns Always 14:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the invite, Will try and source some material. The problem would be mainly in getting credible online sources. Haphar 20:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Sikhism WikiProject

Hi!

Firstly I'd like to say welcome to Wikipedia. Are you interested in joining the Sikhism WikiProject? We're looking to start work on the Guru Nanak Dev page soon and any help would be appreciated! Regards. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 18:11, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi - things are going fine. Been too active here as a matter of fact. Rama's arrow 00:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

External links

Please do not add commercial links or links to your own private websites to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for advertising or a mere collection of external links. You are, however, encouraged to add content instead of links to the encyclopedia. If you feel the link should be added to the article, then please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. See the welcome page to learn more about Wikipedia. Thanks. Kevin_b_er 07:16, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I have replied to your comments on my talk page. Wmahan. 22:21, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Please do not take this personally. Unfortunately you will come across many situations here in which things might get a little heated. Its not really an accusation when somebody warns you with a template - an accusation is personal, and thus contrary to WP. If somebody uses harsh words (and people frequently do), don't worry about it becoz its their fault, their mistake. You should discuss this issue if you feel the warning was wrong, and don't be disappointed no matter the outcome. The importance here is the encyclopedia. User disputes don't matter. Rama's arrow 22:48, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't agree with you there. You musn't take minor things so seriously, especially here as somebody might say you are implicitly bringing nationality issues into this. I firmly believe that Indians are responsible for themselves. We are not special or different in any way. If there is injustice done to us, it is our responsibility to stand up to it. And human beings, human nature are equal. If the Muslims and British oppressed us, so did we the "untouchables." Rama's arrow 23:04, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe it the responsibility of all humans, individuals and as a collective to take full responsibility for our actions. The ignorant and selfish world was as much to blame for the genocide in Rwanda as the killers themselves. Good brahmins should have fought this evil system created in their name. All communities had a responsibility to stop it. Posterity must bear to heart the lessons learnt from their ancestors. Rama's arrow 23:31, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Manmohan Singh

Hi Sikh historian - both sides in this conflict are problem creators. First off, this is a biography, not an article on the Manmohan Singh government. We are not to focus on his prime ministership as the most important element - frankly, his term as finance minister was more important. But your argument is also sympathetic to Singh, which should not be the case. All parts of his life and all POVs should be balanced. No, negative and positive POVs are equally problematic. The light-positive which you talk about is known as fancruft.

The main problem is I don't see any references in this article. If you really want to solve the problem, you'll need a couple of books and/or reputed publications to cite. Rama's arrow 13:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear sir - while I appreciate your kind compliments, I'm not doing anything unusual, nor do I have any special skill. There are more helpful, level-headed people who've done a lot more for WP, so don't worry - the situation is not that bad! If you were here last year, you'd know that my judgment is 50-50, so don't jump on my bandwagon anytime! Btw, if you need help on something and find me and Sukh unavailable, here are some other distinguished users and admins who are very helpful - user:Sundar, user:Bhadani, user:Aksi great, user:Dwaipayanc, user:Shreshth91, user:Ambuj.Saxena - although admittedly, most people I know, including myself have reduced our Wikitime. Rama's arrow 23:30, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Jagrup Brar

Since you are Sikh, I thought you may want to check out this article and perhaps also Sikhism in the United States. The article on Brar-ji actually looks pretty nice, but has very little info besides his election to the BC parliament.Bakaman _Bakatalk 19:17, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Re:Sikhism

Yeah don't worry - I've got my eye on it. Rama's arrow 23:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Although the SGPC wouldn't agree with you, I must thank you for this great compliment. Rama's arrow 00:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Afd

Thought you may be in Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Sikh_diet.Bakaman _Bakatalk 02:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Good, I'm in a huge quagmire on wiki, just doing stuff.The usual, I would say.Bakaman _Bakatalk 03:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

best wishes

Hi - I'm sorry for the late reply, but your last message got a buried by succeeding messages and escaped my eye. All is going well - belated best wishes to you and your family for Nanak Jayanti, Diwali (which also signifies the Guru's release from Mughal prison) and upcoming Christmas! Rama's arrow 17:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

help needed

I'm staring a page on Bhai Gurdas in my userspace. Would you like to help? I need input from knowledgeable Sikhs on this great figure.Bakaman 00:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/2006/December#.7B.7BSikh-bio-stub.7D.7D.2C_Category:Sikh_religious_figures

The stub people wanted input from WP Sikh editors. While you're at it please check out {{User WikiProject Sikhism}} as well.Bakaman 05:00, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

thanks

Hi Sikh historian - thank you for the barnstar. Lemme know whenever I can be of help. Rama's arrow 18:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi - please do not be emotional. Your warning to him is quite unnecessarily harsh and you must not assume that he is trying to insult Sikhs - WP:AGF. Secondly, he does provide references from the works of Arun Shourie, Kuldip Nayar and Khushwant Singh, so its not WP:OR. What it could be, is that he may be inadvertantly be entering the POV of Shourie et al into the article, which may need a little re-writing. Please do not engage in edit-warring or deleting this person's edits. Please check out WP:DR and seek the aid of others active in editing that article. Rama's arrow 21:35, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Also sir, you must not worry so much if you find data that appears somewhat critical of Sikhs/Sikhism. Every coin has two sides, and WP:NPOV demands factual balance - no need to enter criticism for the hell of it, but if there is legitimate information, it must be tackled. There is criticism of topics in almost every biography and article here. Rama's arrow 21:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Martial Race

I'm no topic expert here, but there are some uncited statements that should probably be removed. Is there something in particular in the article that concerns you?--Isotope23 20:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Kingdoms

Dear Sikh Historian: Thank you for your note on the difference between the Sikh religion and ethnicity. I was well aware of all this before but you have summed it up very nicely. What I was not aware of in any detail was the history of Maharaja Ranjit Singh - for which I thank you. What puzzles me, though, is why you wrote this note on my Talk page at all? I have not previously made any comments about Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Was it, perhaps, in response to something else I wrote? Please let me know as I am curious. Yours sincerely, John Hill 03:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Answer to "Favour required"

Dear Sikh Historian: I have just had a look at the article on Porus and it seems there is no longer any mention of the Kukhran in it - so there does not seem to be any need to do anything about it at the moment. The "oral history" regarding Porus is mentioned in the article on the Kukhran but there is a proper "citation needed" tag on it and it was only entered in June. So, I don't think anything need be done about it until either a citation is found or a significant time has gone by with no citations forthcoming. I will, however, keep a watch on these pages and comment if and when I think I may have something useful or pertinent to add. Best wishes, John Hill 08:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I also took a look (sorry for the delay). Obviously, you're right that "oral history" doesn't make for a reliable source on WP, although if it's a genuine oral history that has been documented somewhere, that's a different story, but didn't appear to be the case here. Anyway, it doesn't look like you're at an impasse, and your removal has not been reverted, so it seems like things are fine. If it comes up again, try to educate Intothefire on the policy WP:RS in a calm, civil way, and if that doesn't work I'd be happy to help. Cheers. Mangojuice^talk 14:15, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Reply from Intothfire

Hi Sikh historian

First your post , to put the matter in its perspective and then my response .

"Please can you help. Please can you apply the same rigour you have applied to articles on wikipedia to the article on the Porus article there is user (User:Intothefire) saying King Porus was from the Kukhran according to Oral history. I mean come on this outrageous to even post something like this on Wikipedia without any references or verifiable references but say ORAL HISTORY says he was from the Kukhran is appalling. I am Indian and there is NO scholar or University academic who says he was from the some fringe group called the Kukhran. Most Indian academics would be appalled by this falsehood and unsubstantiated claim. Please take this up immediately and apply you regular rigour to this article - absolutely appalling abuse of Wikipedia.--Sikh historian 23:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC) "

I had put this post ...and clearly mentioned that "according to Oral History" ...I realise what should have been added to was "according to oral history of the Kukhran." If the rules of wikipedia say that Oral history may not be quoted than be it and I will not revert your delete . On the other hand I may bring to your notice that there are at least three clans from the Punjab with clan historys on wikipedia that claim Porus as an ancestor ...am not going to tell you whom as I do not have any reason to facilitate the removal of this information from their pages .

As regards the Kukhran being a fringe group ..lol...well they are a proud clan from the Punjab and I dont think your opinion of calling them a fringe group is going to endear you to Kukhran wikipedians . Just a piece of advise ...the fact that you had not heard of a people does not mean they do not exist ....or are a fringe group ...for the record the current Prime Minister of India is a Kukhran .
...and well Ibbetson ..which wikipedia recognizes as a valid source seems to have recorded them in the last century ..even if they missed your attention now .

Then your statement :"I am Indian and there is NO scholar or University academic who says he was from the some fringe group called the Kukhran" ...are you providing a fact or is this your opinion ??...slightly dogmatic I would say !!...
the eminent writer Bhisham Sahni a Sahitya Akademi award winner and listed on the page was a professor all his life in a Delhi College.

Then you also removed Bhera and various other informations ...are you sure ...there is no written evidence about Bhera s connection to Porus ?? ...before you proceed to delete edit ...please be sure ....lest your ignorance in a particular topic becomes the reason for taking away information from a wikipedia page that has valid reasons to be there .I have found it is better to post than to delete on any subject .

On a serious note and recent history there are thousands of places in current Pakistan where various Hindu and Sikh people lived ....often only with an oral history as proof that that was their home ...!

Sikh historian I like your posts and have no reason to be in an edit war with you .

Cheers
Intothefire 14:09, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

As Sikh historian's original post was to me (and possibly others), so I'll butt in here with the some commentary about oral histories... if a reliable source has recorded these oral histories we can use this text in the article and verify it with the record as a source. If these are unrecorded oral histories, they are not usable as a basis for content here and incidentally if this is the basis for claims in other articles as you've mentioned above it should be removed from there as well. An excellent example is the article on Vampire pumpkins and watermelons which is based on Gypsy oral folklore, but the oral tradition was recorded by T. P. Vukanović and that is the source for the article.

Preferably you would mention these other articles you mentioned that reference Porus if you know about them or go out and find valid sources for the information, but I suppose I can go looking for them if need be. One other thing I want to point out is in regards to a statement you made above about Bhera; if there are no sources for a particular claim or text and it is questionable, then it should be deleted. Even if it is 100% true, unless it is verifiable it doesn't belong here. Deleted information can always be added back if and when sources are produced, but it's not good practice to leave unsourced information in articles indefinitely while we wait for a source to be produced.--Isotope23 ^talk 14:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

The Golden Temple

Hi! Thanks for your welcome note. I gather you are very busy - so please don't feel you have to reply to this right away.

I have been fortunate enough to visit the Golden Temple several times - first in 1973 and 2 (or perhaps 3) times in 1979-81. Each visit was delightful and different. Aside from the striking beauty and peaceful surrounds of the Golden Temple - I was privileged each time I visited it to become friendly with Sikh families who spent time with me showing me (and my family) around and explaining things about the Temple and the Sikh religion. I especially loved the chanting of the holy books - which is most beautiful - and, one time, I spent several hours sitting quietly just listening to the chanting which was a very special experience for me.

My main sadness was that the partition line between India and Pakistan cuts right across the two beautiful cities of Amritsar and Lahore - both of which I loved and which I hope to be able to visit again before I die.

I have visited many Sikh gurdwaras in the Punjab and neighbouring regions, but I think my favorite place of all (which, of course, is a place of pilgrimage for Hindus as well as Sikhs), is Manikaran in the Kullu region. I really loved it there and do hope to return. (You can see a couple more of my photos on that page in the Wikipedia).

Also, I should really get out my photo albums and post more of my photos on the WP - it is just that it does take time and I have been very busy recently getting my book (Through the Jade Gate to Rome: An Annotated Translation of the 'Chapter on the Western Regions' from the Hou Hanshu) ready for the publishers. There is an early draft available on the Silk Road Seattle website - but it will be good to have the much revised and corrected version actually available as a printed book after some 27 years of work on it! Then, I need to finish off my two other books which will complete the whole study I have been doing of the early development of the Silk Routes.

Hope this answers some of your questions - but do write again when you can spare the time - would love to have further chats with you. Cheers and all best wishes, John Hill

Sikh confederacy

Hi there wrt to your edit of the Sikh Confederacy, i well understand that the confederacy was initially a loose bunch of baronet states and if there was a separate entry for the Sikh Empire, i would of happily made my contribution (i.e. the lost contry edit there); however wiki admin's have merged both enteries together. The infobox makes it crystal clear that the country i am talking about is the Sikh Empire cica 1801-1849. Not the aforementioned confederacy. I see no reason why the infobox should not be included.

Thx.msp4realmf 14:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Re:Hi

Thanks, I am always trying to do something different. I still think that this needs improvement though. How did you come across my user page. Interesting. Cheers_Ad@m.J.W.C. 03:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't really know all that much about Indian related topics. When it came to editing articles of that that nature I mainly reverted vandalism, spam or formatted the images. Sometimes I did minor or even major clean ups regarding text. Not everyone like my formatting teqnique as I have had trouble in the past. Recently I have been contributing reasonable amounts of text to Australian related topics, one of the latest is one that I created with the help of another user called Bankstown Bunker. People are living on top of this bunker and don't even know, you may want to have a look at the article. Thats the kind of thing that I would like to look into if poss, but if there is anything that I could help with pleas don't hesitate to ask. Cheers_Ad@m.J.W.C. 06:27, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Singh

You shouldn't worry, I won't make anything offensive to the Sikhs, however you should also know that I am a member of the Nabha and Patiala family, I have a distant relation to Maharaja Ranjit Singh's family through my maternal Great great Grandfather Wazir Ishwari Singh Katoch, Prime Minister of Kangra and because of him we are close friends of the Nalwa family (Hari Singh Nalwa and Ishwari Singh were best friends so our fmailies are still in contact). The present Maharaja Nabha is my cousin. The present Patiala Maharaja is my nephew.

Cheers.

Gorkhali (talk) 03:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

You are a Sikh historian/scholar? Where did you teach, I am curious. I used to give guest lectures for Dr. McCleod and Dr. O'Connell at Canadian Universities on Sikh Royalty because of my family background. Dr. Grewal came from India to meet me and interview me on Sikh Royal practices.

Gorkhali (talk) 03:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Sat Sri Akal,

I was very touched by your kind message and you are a true Sikh because you are willing to stand up for the truth, I truly admire that. Let us work together to make the Singh article a balanced well presented article and try to represent all groups involved even if there is no one to write on their behalf.

I really appreciate you helping out with trying to stop the vandalism by HarryBabbar.

PS the reason why I know about the Chinese connection is because my Great Great Grandfather Sri Teen Maharaja Jung Bahadur of Nepal had a Chinese Princess as one of his wives and so we were intimately in touch with the royal court of China and the Emperor of China. He is famous in Sikh history because he saved Maharani Jind Kaur from the British by giving her Asylum and built a Gurudwara for her in Kathmandu. Why did he do it? Well frist of all its Rajput dharma, but also people don't realise how Maharaja Ranjit Singh of Punjab, Maharaja Jung Bahadur, Maharaja Sansar Chand of Kangra and a few others are all interrealted through marriages. When I get a chance I will explain of my family was related to Sikh Royals and how I still keep in touch with many of them and try to preserve historical documents and photographs of the family. Believe me these are very interesting but very long stories.

Presently I am involved in restoring the Royal Sikh Tombs of Nabha which is my family project and something my Mother has always dreamed of doing since the Sikh Royal house of Nabha is her family.

Sincerely

Gorkhali (talk) 04:30, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I just saw that you had in the past a disagreement with someone that King Porus was from Khukran. That is false, he was a Katoch Rajput and this information is recorded on the official Hiamchal Pradesh website and the official website for the Royal family of Kangra. I appreciate you engaging those individuals in debate.

Gorkhali (talk) 04:34, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Dear Sikh Historian, I really need help in keeping an eye on the Singh article. Perhaps we could get an Admin involved that would perhaps help out. Thank you.

Gorkhali (talk) 07:08, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Sunny Leone

Please do not remove cited material from an article without first discussing it on the article's talk page. There are reliable cites for all information about her background: Indian, Punjabi and from a Sikh household. Tabercil (talk) 13:25, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Usually any one who is a punjabi is taken to be a sikh, whether or not that person is another matter. About that filthy person, how can you call her a sikh. Where are the five articles of faith, i don't see any on her. one doesn't become a sikh, by simly stating to be, and i doubt she ever said that. and you talk about sikh household! Maybe you should also provide ref. about when that family participates in community kitchen(langar}. Contrary to that a lot of american pornstars wear cross ( symbol of christ) while doing their dirty chores on cameras ( i googled and saw a lot of them doin that) . may be you should also add that barring Sunny Leone all other pornstars are christians. example.Jenna Jameson. Ajjay (talk) 07:58, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

yo bro! wassup!!

I was going through my userpage history. Your name was in the edits, but i did not see any edit by you on the talk page. what was it?????Ajjay (talk) 07:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I see. That is like going into a dirty pond to clean it. I don't have too much knowledge about the degenrate american porn stars. though some of them look good.hehe. I will keep an eye on that article, though i am gonna hate doin it. Ajjay (talk) 07:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

You seem to have already cleaned it.Ajjay (talk) 08:13, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Guru Nanak Dev

Have you seen the article. why don't you make improvements to it. i have added a lot, but the current state is far from being satisfied. Maybe we can work on it as a team. We can also get other participants. the article deserves to be featured. With the amount of literary work available, i don't think that would be difficult. We can atleast get it to be a good article. I don,t know how to add pics. If you know, then i can send them to you, I have scanned a lot from books. i will give you all the details about where i got them from, and you can add them in the article. what are your views? You can add to the article, and i can help you find ref. for your contri. ThanksAjjay (talk) 08:21, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

message

No offence , only curosity! but if wiki is a joke, why are you contributing to it? or even bothering to visit it? Ajjay (talk) 12:42, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

You want me to believe it?Ajjay (talk) 12:52, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Good luck for your website. though the danger is not so potent .Ajjay (talk) 12:59, 1 March 2008 (UTC)