User talk:Sigurd Dragon Slayer/Archive 2

Wikipedia:WikiProject Celts

You had indicated on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals page that you would be interested in working with a project dealing with Celts. The project is now active at the page linked to above. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 18:01, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Elves

We can safely report Fimi's statements regarding Tolkiens opinion of the celtic as fact. The reason is that there are no other reliable sources which contradict these statements and the reference acts as the attribution. If we did have a reliable source which said otherwise, then we could include those and show where both opinions originate. It would be great for the article if you could find sources and add content which opposes Fimi. As it is, Fimi's statements are uncontroversial, and changing the article text from neutral-cited to vague-attribution introduces wp:weasel see wp:Npov#Attributing_and_substantiating_biased_statements. Further, directly attributing Fimi is redundant (the reference already attributes her), and would lead to almost every sentence starting with "insert name says ...", all of which would be made redundant by the reference unless the point is controversial (like the relative weights of the norse/celtic influence is). --Davémon (talk) 12:17, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Personally I have no POV on Tolkiens influences as you claim. If you'd like to add any referenced statements showing the Finnish/Norse/Anglo-saxon influence on Tolkiens Elves to the article, please do so, they'd really, really help. I've taken your suggestion of attributing every statement to its source in the text, rather than leaving it in the reference. Can't say it reads as bad as I'd feared. --Davémon (talk) 23:35, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

The Celts as Barbarians?

Your thoughts and/or comments are requested here. Thanks. —Aryaman (Enlist!) 14:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

June 2008

Welcome to Wikipedia. The recent edit you made to Knuth has been reverted, as it appears to be unconstructive. Use the sandbox for testing; if you believe the edit was constructive, ensure that you provide an informative edit summary. You may also wish to read the introduction to editing. Thanks. Shapiros10 WuzHere  20:47, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

That was a mistake. I'm making it a disambiguation page. There isn't one 'Knuth'. And don't welcome me to wikipedia! I have been on longer than you, junior! Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 12:10, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Sunne (town)

From WP:CUTPASTE: "When a cut-and-paste move is done, the page history of an article or talk page can be split among two or more different pages. This is a Very Bad Thing, because we need to keep the history with the content for copyright reasons."

In the future, please be more careful and use the "move" button at the top of the page. See Help:Moving a page for more information. Best wishes, --PeaceNT (talk) 14:09, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

You are correct. Best wishes also! Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 16:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Oxford Wikimania 2010 and Wikimedia UK v2.0 Notice

Hi,

As a regularly contributing UK Wikipedian, we were wondering if you wanted to contribute to the Oxford bid to host the 2010 Wikimania conference. Please see here for details of how to get involved, we need all the help we can get if we are to put in a compelling bid.

We are also in the process of forming a new UK Wikimedia chapter to replace the soon to be folded old one. If you are interested in helping shape our plans, showing your support or becoming a future member or board member, please head over to the Wikimedia UK v2.0 page and let us know. We plan on holding an election in the next month to find the initial board, who will oversee the process of founding the company and accepting membership applications. They will then call an AGM to formally elect a new board who after obtaining charitable status will start the fund raising, promotion and active support for the UK Wikimedian community for which the chapter is being founded.

You may also wish to attend the next London meet-up at which both of these issues will be discussed. If you can't attend this meetup, you may want to watch Wikipedia:Meetup, for updates on future meets.

We look forward to hearing from you soon, and we send our apologies for this automated intrusion onto your talk page!

Addbot (talk) 07:31, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

His Sig

Thank you for respecting my edits.

Can you tell me what you have validated with regards to Netty?

You claim you have validated something. But I can see nothing validated in any of your citations. I can see no links with netty (ctrl F the web articles and type in netty many do not have netty in them). And the one that did the trotter book, I shjowed you on the history page, had nothing to do with the netty toilet.

Can you show me what you are validating with netty. And regarding the trotter book, I linked you on the history edit page, can you plaese show me the page, and I will personally with good will put in place a citation with a page link that shows a reader what exactly has been validated.

--77.97.69.24 (talk) 17:57, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi sig here I am again.

First off write down your premises in sentences below

Then give me your 'netty' link sources

Explain to me the netty links in each source that validates your premises..

I'm not here to argue. Please don't argue.

--77.97.69.24 (talk) 18:05, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

My "premise" is that the etymology of "netty" is not certain or proven in anyway and that at least one etymologist and an educational site disagree that it is from an unrecorded slang word used by Roman soldiers (who were not usually speakers of Latin as a first language anyway...but that is besides the point) and that it is more likely in their minds to be (certainly) related to "needy" (and thus "need" and "nied") or (possibly) the Modern Italian "gabinetto" respectively.

Here, page 214:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0WdEAAAAIAAJ&printsec=titlepage&dq=north+country+folklore&lr=&as_brr=1&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#PPA214,M1

Neddy, Netty, a certain place that will not bare a written explanation.... ...Etymon. needy, a place of need or neccesity.

He doesn't say Netty is not a toilet, he doesn't even mention toilet The best you can say is netty has other meanings, your premise is not validated--77.97.69.24 (talk) 18:55, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

This is besides the point, as there is evidence the book exists (I gave enough details need under Wikipedia's guidelines), and can easily be looked into, and thus edits that use it as a source should not be deleted just because you have not read the source, you should find the source and then if it does not conatain what the wikipedian has claimed it does, then you delete it, not before.

Sig please show me where he mentions the 'Netty toilet' and says it is not netty toilet and comes from elsewhere and you can keep it up as--77.97.69.24 (talk) 18:55, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Secondly, the other source (http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/case-studies/geordie/lexis) showed that it (being an educational site) thought the origins uncertain and that it thought it could be from the modern Italian word and *NOT* the Latin word. We have sources that show it is explained on the wall, in latin. And latin is a parent of the italian language.--77.97.69.24 (talk) 18:55, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Can you please show me where undeniable proof, or even a trustworthy source that "netty" could be from the Latin soldiers on the wall, at the moment it looks as if someone is just quoting urban legendSigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 18:19, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

There are many sources

here is just one source

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/apr/04/artnews.art

and you would think they'd get there facts very staight when promoting the history--77.97.69.24 (talk) 18:55, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

And here is another source that thinks it is most likely from the same ultimate source of 'needy' (nid/nied/ned), though does reference it possibly coming from the Italian "gabinetto"/"cabinetti", but yet again no mention of the unlikely folktale of it being directly from a Latin slang word: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=frq_6tAVRdYC&pg=PT1&dq=%23+A+Dictionary+of+North+East+Dialect,+Bill+Griffiths,+2005,+Northumbria+University+Press,+ISBN+1904794165&sig=ACfU3U04vo9UYleseAqfHqDWq25TMUE9SQ#PPA122,M1 Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk)

You have a good citation there, but 'only' to describe that a form of the word has links with necessary --77.97.69.24 (talk) 18:55, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The last sources says, if you actually read it "...in which case the root could be the O.E. níd "neccesity"...". níd is one of the variants along with nied and ned of which the modern English need and needy derive. He mentioned the form "nessy" being linked to "neccesary". Which still goes against your view that "netty" is definately from a Roman slang word (which I repeat: 'We have no evidence of'), as they could be both derived from the same root word.

I have not said that the word does not mean toilet, as you would have seen if you actually read what I wrote earlier. I said that it is not proven, nor accept by all, that "netty" derives from a Roman slang word of which we have no evidence even existed. Being a Northumbrian and going to Newcastle fairly often to visit a friend ("netty" is not that common in my area of Northumberland but I know some Geordies who do use it often), I do know what a word from my native dialect means. it originally seems to have meant an outside toilet but these days it's seemingly used for a toliet in general.

And he doesn't call it a toilet as that was quite taboo for the 1800s, either way there is only one Northern English word that is "netty", and it only has one meaning in this day and age "a toilet". You can read and write so I would have thought you would be able to tell what he means by '"a certain place that will not bear written explaination; but which is depicted to the very life in a tail-peace in the first edition of Bewick's Land Birds, p. 285. In the second addition a bar is placed against the offending part of this broad display of native humour. Etymon. needy, a place of need or neccesity.'

And that one link you keep posting is from a newspaper, it's not by an etymologist or anyone with any sort of acedemic qualifications to study the origins of words, and as I have said is just stating an urban legend, that thus far, no academic source agrees with!

Your thinly veiled attempts to keep facts from the article in the way of folk-etymology that goes with your point fo view will not work, I have been on Wikipedia too long just to leave it to that sort of unencyclopaedic 'goings-on'. And shall be reporting you if you remove any more of my edits that 'conform to the rules of Wikipedia' as they have, indeed, done. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 19:34, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi sig, I've probably got a new IP here.

What I expect from premise validation is

premise dough is the way to make bread;

I expect the source to say dough is the way to make bread,

I do not expect the source to say spanners and nuts make spaghtettu soup

As when does dough is the way to make bread = spanners and nuts make spaghetti soup?

Can you see how the above sentence is invalid and fallacy?

You have validated nothing but you nearly did validate something, like the french link but it was loose and unwittingly abusing chronicalogical order. You used it to claim the romance period came before the latin period.

--77.97.69.24 (talk) 19:52, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

BTW I'm not arguing, just I want a wiki to have citations that match the premise. You are cheating the reader if you put a subscript number near to the premise where the source and premise do not match.

Dough is the way to make bread does not need a subscript number that says spanners and nuts make spaghetti soup. The source and premise have to match.--77.97.69.24 (talk) 19:59, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok Sig,

I've added a source that = a premise using one of your sources, as you can see we have a match, using the word necessity and relief--77.97.69.24 (talk) 20:46, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Both sources say it could comes from a root related to needy, and one even gives the roots níd (the root of needy) as it's ultimate source. That is what it says!

I shall re-add the information and if it is removed again I shall report you for vanadlism, I have given you a fair warning. You cannot make the claim that something *IS* something, when in fact not everyone agrees, and we have no evidence for it. Your POV is that it is that it does come from an unknown Roman slang word But that is not the case, it *COULD*.

And how did I claim that the Romance period came before the Latin period? I didn't? The fact it may come from a later version of the word does not mean that word is older. AGAIN YOU HAVE NOT READ WHAT WAS WRITTEN

It is not a fact that "netty" comes from a Roman slang word, nor is it accepted by anyone in the academic community.

You are in violation of Wikipedia's POV policy, please desist.

I should really use Hanlon's razor here, but I keep pointing out what it says and hinting at Wikipedia's rules, and still you fail to see that your POV is not the one that should just be accepted, there are sources that disagree and think the root is either from the Modern Italian word (as site that actually says "origin unknown, although some theories suggest it is an abbreviation of Italian gabbinetti, meaning ‘toilet’" here http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/case-studies/geordie/lexis/).

P.S. It doesn't, in modern times, mean "neccesity", it just may derive from a word of that meaning. Yet again if you read the sources I provided you would see that the modern sense is only toilet, and more correctly an outside toilet.Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 09:01, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Sig I have respected your sources but used them to mean bread = bread, not bread = spanners in a fallacy

Also someone removed one of your citations I respected, on nationmaster.

Also regarding TROTTER, I've used your source, the exact page was put into the template too and all he says on your source is it is a toilet, it says nothing about an old english meaning.

You can't cite something in a wiki to mean bread = spanners, it has to be bread = bread.

The Griffiths cite was worded right too.

Edit: Regarding your trotter cite source, which is here

Trotter Brockett, John (1829). A glossary of north country words, in use. From an original manuscript, with additions. With their etymology &c (PDF). Oxford University. p. 214. NEDDY, NETTY, a certain place that will not bear a written explanation; but which is depleted to the very life in a tail-piece in the first edition of Bewick's Land Birds, p. 285. In the second edition a bar is placed against the offending part of this broad display of native humour. Etymon needy, a place of need or necessity. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

Where does it say anything about an old english meaning????

All it says is a netty is a place of necessity a 19th century euphenism for toilet.

BTW I'm not arguing, but I get the impression you are arguing for the sake of arguing, when there is no argument.

Edit again: Also there is nothing earlier found for netty than the roman wall. The romance period comes after the roman period.

Edit again (I'm the Ip and my adress might have changed again): You accused me of using opinions, which I could take offense to, but I think you have jumped the gun accidently. If you look at all my edits where I have put all your sources in quality templates, my edits using your sources is bread = bread. And I do not give any opinion either way. But regarding opinions, if you make a cite mean bread = spanners then that to me means you are giving commentry and abusing logical fallacy and cheating wiki.

--77.97.70.58 (talk) 14:37, 2 September 2008 (UTC)--77.97.70.58 (talk) 13:50, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Reply to discussion page, regarding netty

Roughly, here’s a briefing, this is getting convoluted and going into an argument when I’m not here to argue.

I couldn’t give a fuck about the history of the netty, an outdoor shit house, I have no opinion. But I get annoyed at sloppy research especially if they use wiki rehash as authority.

I have left this on your page.

Look at the fallacy pattern:

First off sig I do not have any agenda, but you come into this article with loose vague citations (where you who has the burdon of proof accused me of having an agenda for matching), using poor wiki rehash articles. [[1]], this one which says “The region also has seen Italian immigration, particularly in the 19th century. As a consequence, some slang words like netty, meaning a toilet or bathroom, have been linked to a corresponding Italian word, in this case cabinetti.”

The region has never had big itallian migration like the wiki rehash claims and like your 13 link above claims[[2]]. And the migration of any community in civilisation in built up areas will be in the minority that means the likelyhood is the local populus the majority, would not take on terms of the minority.

Your next citation was the romance article etc. that apparently that nationmaster cite was also a rehash of wiki, which I did not pick up. I even templated this one from nationmaster eventually, which user:Fran removed.[[3]]

You went on to say they were more likely origins [[4]] which to me shows you have an opinion as even with the citations we have now we can logically say that that is not the likely origin, not that I could give a fuck, saying because of the graffitti on the wall etc. Also not one of these articles you have cited says that this is the ‘likely origin.’ Bread=spaghetti soup here.

After I seen that bit of POV commentary I had a feeling you would argue, as ‘likely origins’ without a cite is pretty emotive and suggestive you have an opinion, it is commentary. I did not want that. And I knew you would be determined to put in your opinion and I may have a pointless fight with fallacy were you might bring in some extra sources with a rush to research.

Before my edit, I tried to edit but I was told by wiki another person had edited, you then made another edit:[[5]] You added “Another less fanciful theory is that the word derives from the Old English níd or ned (“‘necessity’”, the root of the Modern English word need) and thus is akin to the Modern English needy (this is in line with 80% of Northumbrian vocabulary being derived from Old English). ” And you gave off the loose citation A Glossary of North Country Words, in Use: With Their Etymology, and Affinity to Other Languages ; and Occasional Notices of Local Customs and Popular Superstitions By John Trotter Brockett, Published by E. Charnley, 1829, which I suspicious of your previous edit questioned, another emotive bread=spaghetti soup fallacy here? I would go on to research that. And you used this citation [[6]].htm to back up something, I ctrl+f’ed ‘netty’ and ‘80%’ and found nothing. This citation was a suspicion of bread = thin air if you like. Suggestive of POV.

I knew you were opinionated on this matter with the way you immediately used fallacy. All your citations at this point were suspect bar one which I hadn’t really seen. I then reverted[[7]] I shouldn’t have as I felt you would argue and waste our time, I left a citation you put in about the nettoyer.

But my tactic was to put your sources in and help you cite match and not get drawn into a fight invoving match fallacy. I did not want to have to write any essay trying to explain matches.

I pointed out your mistakes; later on you were determined to put in your sources. I wanted to help you. I put in your sources, I templated them and quoted your sources so the vagueness could be removed.

I done a minor edit[[8]] You then edited/reverted, [[9]] but you left the bread=fresh air citation out [[10]], etal maybe you seen I checked up??

You said in the history page “(Sorry to burts your myth-bubble but I think you'll find 'A Glossary of North Country Words' a valid etymological source and not just someone stating folklore in a newspaper..)”

Now I wasn’t the one who at the least had all but one cites were fallacy at this point, and I was not the one adding to the article, thus you can not accuse me of making a myth yet you did. You also accused me of adding to the article at this time. Yet I had added no citation for you to test the match.

It was certain to me you had an opinion here and I did not want to fight.

I strengthened my tactic to cooperate instead of fight here, because I did not want to spend all my time pointing out fallacy to you, because I knew you’d argue. I then edited/reverted [[11]]

I researched your Trotter cite. I also done a slight edit regarding the french verb nettoyer which means to wipe. and took away your vague cite I was suspicious of. Your editing was not exactly prolifically fact based. A Glossary of North Country Words, in Use: With Their Etymology, and Affinity to Other Languages ; and Occasional Notices of Local Customs and Popular Superstitions-- By John Trotter Brockett Published by E. Charnley, 1829

You had not left a page or pages on your cite and after you other cites I was suspicious.

And left you a comment on the history page (sig, Can you show me the page that has the validation in, as I can only find:http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=m-8IAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA214&dq=netty+A+Glossary+of+North+Country+Words&lr=) I asked you what you were trying to cite from this page so I could help you[[12]] I then done a minor edit[[13]] and another one [[14]] Then you edited[[15]] And put in this cite which says the origin is unknown[[16]] which I later cited in a template so we get bread = bread, which should be in the netty bit today. You claimed with the cite that it could come from the later word gabinetti, yet here is what the source said “origin unknown, although some theories suggest it is an abbreviation of Italian gabbinetti, meaning ‘toilet’” It says it is an abbreviation of the Italian term gabbinetti, says nothing that it could come from gabbinetti. Bread = elephant, Now can you see you have an opinion? And have used fallacy and 95% + of your cites so far.

You now thought you were in an argument and had to win. Where I just wanted cite matches.

You put in this cite [[17]]

And your premise was It could alternatively be derived from the same root as the Standard English Needy (from the Old English 'nid' or 'ned' "neccesity") In that article it did not have any netty in it but I think you were using this as a secondary cite for this A Glossary of North Country Words, in Use: With Their Etymology, and Affinity to Other Languages ; and Occasional Notices of Local Customs and Popular Superstitions-- By John Trotter Brockett Published by E. Charnley, 1829

I then edited[[18]] and I put some links in and removed your cites for the time being

On the history page I left you a note, “(Sig, I put some good links in, please respect them if editing again. But can you please explain on discussion what you are validating. I'm confused.)” Your last edit on the 2nd September you eventually removed that wikidictionary link for the French verb nettoyer

In the next edit [[19]] you reverted You used this citation again[[20]] (which I would use as a source with a matching citation) and put in a premise which didn’t match… Bread = elephant

You also told me in the history page “if you remove sourced and valid information again I shall report you. This view point has as much value as your biased interpretation!)” Yet during all your edits 95% of them are fallacy and it is clear you are the one who is biased by using fallacy and you are the one editing not me.

Next edit I reverted [[21]] And I said on the history page “(I'm not arguing, I just expect validation, but if you would go to talk I could see what you are trying to validate and maybe I could help you.)”

As you can see I wanted to help you. I done another edit to improve templates bringing in some of your sources to get bread = bread[[22]]

Another one to improve templates [[23]][[24]][[25]]

You then edited [[26]] and said on the history page, “m (→Vocabulary: The sources validate themeselves, they, show that the origin is uncertain...you are in violation of Wikipedia's POV policy...please stop.)” and made it a minor edit. Now where have shown my point of view or used fallacy?

I then edited [[27]] and said on the history page “(Sig using your 'exact' sources I've put better templates in. For the good of the article this will allow people over time to match premises to the sources. So we get dough = dough)” And using all your sources including trotter I put in your sources and matched citations to premise. Minor edits by me fixing templates[[28]][[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Geordie&diff=next&oldid=235607391]][[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Geordie&diff=next&oldid=235608792]][[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Geordie&diff=next&oldid=235609060]][[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Geordie&diff=next&oldid=235609386]][[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Geordie&diff=next&oldid=235610621]][[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Geordie&diff=next&oldid=235611819]]

Next edit was done by Fram were he took down a template I put in a template that come from one of your sources, as it was a wiki rehash[[29]]

You then edited [[30]] You removed the matching cite that the said the earliest form of the word is found in graffiti on the roman wall, and remove the Wikipedia link that shows nettoyer is a form of the word that means wipe, which as disgusting as it sounds is what you do in a netty sometimes.

How the idea of the word coming from gabinetti is bad, and you removed a bad cite I didn’t check about how there have been no connection with the roman/Italian region since the roman days. (We could always use you source you found on the discussion page). Which is probably fair game but if you use logic you can see that this is probable. Etc.

You then took down a load of references and reedited, and you didn’t use the template I left for you with regards to your sources of Griffiths and Trotter. Was this to make it look like I was not respecting your sources or something? Though I suspect you didn’t see them etc. You take down many cites etc.

You say “‘at least’ two etymological sources to come from.” Yet all Trotter does is explain that the origin of netty is from a shithouse, like any other toilet, as does Griffiths. Which I’m not going to fight over. Your use of “At least” shows you have a bias again, and when you put it in all your fallacy above, you have a bias.

You leave a message on the history page to make it look like there is an argument when there is not: “(→Vocabulary: User 77.97.69.24 has now been adding his opinions (which is against wiki policy) and misinterpreting sources to say other things.)” Yet again I’m not adding opinions, I’m not the one who has used fallacy in about 90% of his cites over a two or three day period. I’m not the one twisting cites putting up twisted cites. I make an edit [[31]]

And revert And say on the history page (Where the fuck does Trotter say it comes from the same root. He only uses an outside toilet, he does not give eplanation. LOOK AT YOUR CITATION. YOUR CITATION AND SOURCE is Bread = spanners, instead), but looking back your cite though not perfect was not exactly complete fallacy like the 90% of your others.

You, who have put up twisted cites and cites over a two or three day period which shows POV, then go on to the discussion page and leave an critique essay that tries to make it look like I’m biased for some reason and there is an argument when there is not[[32]] I have not added opinion just merely matched premise and cites.

One thing I will say you are your own worst enemy when you jump in with fallacy in edits, all this does is lead to edit wars.

I’ve reedited and have again respected your sources.

I come in peace.

Citation

Right I wanted to wait 24hours, because I thought if I edited you’d think edit war. Sig using your cites 36 and 37 you’ve cited bread = fresh air and bread = something else [[33]]

Look at the premise = cite here “However Bill Griffiths, in A Dictionary of North East Dialect points to an earlier form [36][37]”

The cites are nothing by Bill Griffiths, 36 is a blank page, and on 37 what does it cite? My original thinking is you meant it to be put after “the Old English níd” to explain the word nid. But I CTRL + F nid and found nothing… The two cites look redundant, they look like decoration. My thinking is, is you had some context in your head prior to reading that you assumed we would understand and you accidently forgot to put something in. Or it belongs to the previous sentence to describe the word needy/need, if so, my thinking is it doesn’t really need a cite, just a www.linkthishereitshowsyouthedescriptionofawordI’musingnearmyciteswithregardstonetty.com link next to needy.

--77.97.69.62 (talk) 16:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

cites [36] and [37] are to show that it's not my opinion that nid/nied/ned is an earlier form of needy, it's to show that this is indeed the case. 36 is not a blankpage when I click it, it takes me to [34] and [37] takes you to [35] (I have just checked by the way, and thus I suggest it was something wrong with your browser if it, indeed, came up as a blank page). And yes it can be used to explain the word níd, I would suggest actually writting in the cite that níd is a variant form of the word that is in Mercian ned and in West Saxon nied. [36] I'm Ok for you to do that if you wish, however please do not change it to reflect a bias point of view again. It is now at a point where, I think, we can fairly to say it refelects a neutral point of view. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 19:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Toilet Talk

I've reedited, using the new text you put in. I dont think there is much difference in what you have wrote though?

The geordie word netty, meaning a toilet, a place of need and necessity for relief, bathroom, has an uncertain origin, though some have theorised that it may come from Latin slang used by Roman soldiers on Hadrian's Wall, which may have later become gabinetti in the descending Romanic Italian language after the Roman occupation from AD 43 to 410 (Such as this article about the Westoe Netty, the subject of a famous painting from Bob Olley. and this article on the famous Westoe Netty origin and restoration.)

Concentrating on the gabi-netti/gabi-netto root passage. Gabbi in gabi-netti/gabi-netto (toilet/toilets), is the Romanic Italian diminutive of gabbia, which derives from the Roman Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that also became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol. Thus, another explanation could be that it comes from the Romanic Italian form of the word gabinetti. Though only a, relatively, small number of Italians have migrated to the North of England, mostly during the 19th century.

In French, another later Romanic language, like Italian et al, the verb nettoyer means to wipe. And in Romanic Italian the adjective netti, means to clean. Signifying again the root of Nett, in gabi-netti, nettoyer, Roman slang Netti/Netty and Geordie netty goes back to Roman times. Weighting everything using Roman Latin roots; Nett has been historically used as a place and a process for basic human hygiene, refreshment and relief, to wipe clean since at least the Roman times.

Putting Gabbi, which is derived from the Roman Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure"), and putting it with with the Latin Root of nett, (found in nettoyer, netty and gabinetti et al) we can elucidate more using the Romanic Gabi-netti. Using its Roman Latin roots we can see highlighted an outside Roman toilet, with a cavity, and convenience to refresh away from the dwellings for hygiene, which later became an inside toilet enclosure when the technology became available. The same way the Geordie netty came from Latin following AD410.

Some etymologists connect the word netty to the Modern English word needy. John Trotter Brockett, writing in 1829 in his A glossary of north country words..., suggests that the etymon[37] of netty (and it's related form neddy) is the Modern English needyand need

Bill Griffiths, in A Dictionary of North East Dialect points to an earlier form, the Old English níd, he writes thusly "MS locates a possible early ex. "Robert Hovyngham sall make... at the other end of his house a knyttyng" York 1419, in which case the root could be OE níd 'neccesary'".

Another related word, nessy is thought (by Griffiths) to derive from the Modern English "neccesary".

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Where are the sources for your new additions? Also saying "Roman slang Netti/Netty and Geordie netty goes back to Roman times. Weighting everything using Roman Latin roots; Nett has been historically used as a place and a process for basic human hygiene, refreshment and relief, to wipe clean since at least the Roman times." is POV as it is not universally accepted that netty is from the slang word.

The Iitalian netti, does not mean "to clean" it is a plural of netto and means "net", "Internet" and "clear".

You know for a fact you have made it vastly different from what I said and you have barely used anything I previously added.

I'd like to hear what you have to say for yourself before i fix it again, but if what i like is not forthcoming I shall go ahead and remove your unverifiable and biased claims. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 12:55, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

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• I think we have got mixed up, I'm not saying anything is. I'm saying weighting something using a route, explaining a theory, I dont think I concluded anything in my wording.

Ok I was going to edit again, which restructures the piece as I believe there are at least 3 talking points in it. And my thinking was the modern italian route and latin route might some how get merged over time, which was a worry.

Example, there is a needy part; the part that said it may come from the romanic itallian gabinetti; and the part that has the latin roots.

Here is my current proposal, what do you think?:

The geordie word netty, meaning a toilet, a place of need and necessity for relief, bathroom, has an uncertain origin, but a probable origin exploring and separating Latin Roots.

Some etymologists connect the word netty to the Modern English word needy. John Trotter Brockett, writing in 1829 in his A glossary of north country words..., suggests that the etymon[38] of netty (and it's related form neddy) is the Modern English needyand need

Bill Griffiths, in A Dictionary of North East Dialect points to an earlier form, the Old English níd, he writes thusly "MS locates a possible early ex. "Robert Hovyngham sall make... at the other end of his house a knyttyng" York 1419, in which case the root could be OE níd 'neccesary'".

Another related word, nessy is thought (by Griffiths) to derive from the Modern English "neccesary".

An explanation could be that the term netty comes directly from the Romanic Italian form of the word gabinetti. Though only a, relatively, small number of Italians have migrated to the North of England, mostly during the 19th century.. Making this possibility more inert, and keeping the roots of the Geordie Netty and Italian gabinetti separated on different descending paths from the shared Latin parent.

It is theorised, Netty, using the passage of Latin roots that it may have come from Latin slang used by Roman soldiers on Hadrian's Wall, which may have later in a separate root become gabinetti in the descending Romanic Italian language after the Roman occupation from AD 43 to 410 (Such as this article about the Westoe Netty, the subject of a famous painting from Bob Olley. and this article on the famous Westoe Netty origin and restoration.) and which may have become the adjective netti in Italian and the verb nettoyer in French.

Concentrating on the gabi-netti/gabi-netto separate root passage, with the Italian migration thinking inert, thus making the Geordie netty' and gabinetti roots separated. We can see a shared meaning, that happened, despite root separation through lack of regional Romanic migration since AD 410.

Gabbi: in gabi-netti/gabi-netto (toilet/toilets), is the Romanic Italian diminutive of gabbia, which derives from the Roman Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that also became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol

Nett: In French, another later Romanic language, like Italian et al, the verb nettoyer means to wipe. And in Romanic Italian the adjective netti, means to clean. Signifying again the root of Nett, in gabi-netti, nettoyer, Roman slang Netti/Netty and Geordie netty goes back to Roman times. If weighting using Roman Latin roots; Nett has been historically used as a place and a process for basic human hygiene, refreshment and relief, to wipe clean since at least the Roman times.

Putting Gabbi, which is derived from the Roman Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure"), and putting it with with the Latin Root of nett, (found in nettoyer, netty and gabinetti et al) we can elucidate more using the Romanic Gabi-netti. Using its Roman Latin roots we can see highlighted an outside Roman toilet, with a cavity, and convenience to refresh away from the dwellings for hygiene, which later became an inside toilet enclosure when the technology became available. The same way the Geordie netty, which came from a separate root, came from Latin following AD 410.

--Tyneferry (talk) 13:18, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

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None of those links say what you claim! Also the "-netto" in "gabinetto" is not from this nett of yours (which is actually the Latin nitidere) but is like the -et in French and -ing in English, it makes it a diminutive form. A Diminutive is a form of a word used to express smallness, as ringlet is the dim. of ring...it is a "gabbia" in other words. Get a link that states it is from nitidere and you can have it, until then it's original research or simply misinformation.

And no, you can't say it definitely or even probably has Latin roots as the only etymologists cited have stated it is from an English root (and before that it was from Proto-Germanic not Latin). Need is from O.E. níd which is from Proto-Germanic *nauda-, and before that it is directly from an Indo-European word *NOT* a Latin one.

And again your edits are original research; first find the sources then add the info, don't just make things up of assume a root of a word...etymology is a tricky sea to navigate.

P.S. Please don't sign up puppet accounts, it is against the rules...yet again.Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 15:57, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

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Toilet Talk 2.0

Your last edit of the geordie page [39]you have accused me of not using cites; but the fact is I have used more cites than you, in that edit and in my revised edit I provisionally put on your page for you to look at [40].

You looked at it, didn’t acknowledge it[[41]] (it had cites that showed the separation), then using my earlier edit on the geordie page, you then claimed, I did not put in any sources (Which it was sourced, and which my provisional edit on your page was even more sourced[42]), just like you didn’t. But I used more sources than you for your latest edits ([43] [44] [45] [46] [47]). Where you have not used one.

Not only that but I have used many word meanings, and have shown many connections, which have happened with separation. I would say what I have edited is sourced enough.

‘’None of those links say what you claim! Also the "-netto" in "gabinetto" is not from this nett of yours (which is actually the Latin nidere) ‘’ you say

We all make mistakes but I think you meant the latin nitidus which means clean, shining, polished, glittering. Which is related the the romanic spanish word nítido (which means pure, clear, clean), romanic french word and Romanic Catalan word net (which means clean) and the Italian word netto/ netti (meaning clear/clean), and the modern English word neat (meaning Clean, tidy; free from dirt or impurities, let your imagination run)

If there is such a latin word as nidere, then nid in nidere is probably a corruption of nett and nyt, by the looks of it. Nid, nyt, nit and net could be prounounced similar in the phonetic alphabet, or maybe once did sound similar.

Also for the sake of complication for a reader netto in Italian means to clear (fact Babelfish it), the adjective of the italian netto is which netti means to clean(fact Babelfish it),, Gabbinetti means toilets(fact Babelfish it),, gabinneto means toilet cabinet (fact Babelfish it), In the french verb Nettoyer, nettoyer means wipe(fact Babelfish it); in french the italian netti is ‘nets,’ (fact Babelfish it), which means clean. In French the Italian netto is net(according to Babbel). In French (according to Babbel) clean wipe is nettoient le chiffon(fact Babelfish it),. And last but not least, in geordie Netty is toilet where you wipe, clean and refresh, cited on the Geordie page, which some say using a theory with root separation says is Roman Latin slang for toilet.

As you can see ‘net’ in gabbi-nett has a lot of influence and quite a few roots that say similar things, to do with cleaning, shining.

Then there is the logic that in years gone by you would defecate in a hollow(gabbi), and netti hence wipe clean. <<< Can you see the etymological connections? There is almost a visual paper trail that leads to a roman centurian having a dump in a hollow (gabbi), were he has an epiphany, ‘hey I could do with having a dump in a warm enclosure this is cold and dirty. – bloody hell, we need a gabinetti/gabbinetto enclosure’

I can see the above etymology connections, of wipe clean and refreshment. It is a quality assessment of the root material that any etymologist would be proud of.

‘’but is like the -et in French and -ing in English, it makes it a diminutive form. A Diminutive is a form of a word used to express smallness, as ringlet is the dim. of ring...it is a "gabbia" in other words. Get a link that states it is from nidere and you can have it, until then it's original research or simply misinformation.” You say

You put gabbia in, ([48] [49] [50] [51] [52]).

Look at this paragraph:

However gabbinetto is the Romanic modern Italian diminutive of gabbia, which actually derives from the Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol.

I’m just using your Gabbia (hollow, cavity, enclosure) material and applying it to netti/netto/nett (wipe, clean, toilet et al) and separated roots to make much more logic. ((((It wasn’t just on the geordie page I edited, I informed you. I even restructured my previous Geordie edit on your page (it is still not posted on the Geordie page as I type), showing you provisionally so you could amend your say, so you can edit your say without reverting my theory and we can get consensus and eventually post it on the page[[53]])))) I just examined with its meaning like an etymologist would, since you have taken the role of an etymologist by accusing me of being a bad one. We all can’t have our cake and eat it. Since it wasn’t thoroughly sourced and going on your interpretation, I put the Gabbia (hollow, cavity, enclosure) which you claim with your etymologist expertise, means "hollow", "cavity", "enclosure" and like any exploring etymologist, I used Gabbia and netti/netto/nett and put it together with a hyphen to explain a root gabi-netti that has a similar shared meaning to the separated north east root term netty (I done one on the Geordie page, and I drafted up a much better explanation on your page which you ignored[54]), where for some reason despite the fact they (the roots of Gabinetti and Netti) have been seperated (<<<< a cite that you claimed is not there, with me using your material to add to the piece, this is one more cite than you put in, in your recent edits [55] [56] [57] [58] [59]). They look very, very similar which elucidates a root connection, quality etymological logic, root and separation, using factsand meaning of words what more do you want?

As you can see using Gabbia (hollow, cavity, enclosure) I’m doing exactly what an etymologist would do when exploring roots, when checking for contamination/seperation, where he would use “gabbia”-“nett”.

Also nidere, please see above. Have you got it mixed up with the latin nitidus? as in niti netti, nydy, nidy, nidi et al.

‘’And no, you can't say it definitely or even probably has Latin roots as the only etymologists cited have stated it is from an English root (and before that it was from Proto-Germanic not Latin). Need is from O.E. níd which is from Proto-Germanic *nauda-, and before that it is directly from an Indo-European word *NOT* a Latin one.’’ You say.

I don’t know exactly what you are talking about here, we have been lost somewhere, probably not your fault or mine. Though I assume you are talking about how we cant claim it comes from Latin roots? And what some etymologists have been talking about need is from O.E. Which I did not touch on the edits.

We can only say words come from the roots of our history.

I agree we can’t claim completely it comes from Latin roots, we can only use ‘probably’ by exploring many separated roots like netty, netti, gabinetti/gabinetto, nettoyer, nets et al and get a probability.

Also though I think you haven’t, also have you have perverted my position in my last edits, have you strawmanned my position? As where have I said anything is definite? Is ‘probable’ using evidence saying ‘definite’? In my last edit on your page, where I restructured what I had written and provisionally showed you (so you could have your say, but which you ignored), I even said it is not IS?

If you look I’m doing in my one Geordie page edit [60] to amend your recent edits[61] [62] [63] [64], on my revised ‘provisional’ edit which I showed you provisionally on your page [65], and going on what you’ve done in your last edits, ([66] [67] [68] [69] [70]). I’m the one who is using more sources to back up more of what he is saying (shown how migration has not affected the word netty with a sourcebut bar that, what we are doing is similar. BUT my editing is one cite better a cite which shows that I have explored roots, seen that there are roots that are not contaminated and thus are seperated,were we find that they still mean the same thing. So we followed the root and we reached the roman times, were this is the last time the roots could have met in this theory, this gives weight to a probability.

‘’And again your edits are original research; first find the sources then add the info, don't just make things up of assume a root of a word...etymology is a tricky sea to navigate.’’ You say

Yes we are all self appointed wiki etymologists and must have sources, I can back up separation of a root and explore a root using meaning using some of the hyperlinks you recently gave[71] [72] [73] [74] [75] on top of that. (with regards to Gabbia, hence hollow, cavity, enclosure)

It is very tricky this is why we wiki etymologists have to use logic, explore roots, check for contamination/separation with sources and even then…

Anyway if we are going to go off your latest edits ([76] [77] [78] [79] [80]) Then I suggest I put in my edit, which has three structured talking points so far on the root (points like 1. necessary, nyttying, 2. romanic Italian migrational influence (which is probably debunked), 3. latin,), which I showed you provisionally on your page, for you to amend, but which you ignored[81]. And then work on the edit frame work, using logic, using things like seperation/contamination, using root probability etc. Trying hard to get ‘factual’ sources. Were if you have a conflicting theory instead of reverting, we write a different theory so we can have four talking point theories instead of three, etc.

So if you don’t agree with my root seperation theory where I have used cite, then write up a competing theory using seperation/contamination and roots in another point etc,

Anyway what I have written using your sourced use of Gabbia, along with my separation source is more cited than what you have written.

I have again reedited, using your edit you reverted and left in the paragraph:

However gabbinetto is the Romanic modern Italian diminutive of gabbia, which actually derives from the Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol.

Which is concerned with the modern italian contamination.

Here is the edit, this is what I propose, which has my cited edit(which shows seperation, with an only available link to roman britain) and your edited theory in it.: The geordie word netty, meaning a toilet, a place of need and necessity for relief, bathroom, has an uncertain origin, but a probable origin exploring and separating Latin Roots.

Some etymologists connect the word netty to the Modern English word needy. John Trotter Brockett, writing in 1829 in his A glossary of north country words..., suggests that the etymon[82] of netty (and it's related form neddy) is the Modern English needyand need

Bill Griffiths, in A Dictionary of North East Dialect points to an earlier form, the Old English níd, he writes thusly "MS locates a possible early ex. "Robert Hovyngham sall make... at the other end of his house a knyttyng" York 1419, in which case the root could be OE níd 'neccesary'".

Another related word, nessy is thought (by Griffiths) to derive from the Modern English "neccesary".

However gabbinetto is the Romanic modern Italian diminutive of gabbia, which actually derives from the Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol. So an explanation could be that the term netty comes directly from the Romanic Italian form of the word gabinetti. Though only a, relatively, small number of Italians have migrated to the North of England, mostly during the 19th century.. Making this possibility more inert, and keeping the roots of the Geordie Netty and Italian gabinetti separated on different descending paths from what can only be the shared Latin parent.

It is theorised, Netty, using the passage of Latin roots that it may have come from Latin slang used by Roman soldiers on Hadrian's Wall, which may have later in a separate root become gabinetti in the descending Romanic Italian language after the Roman occupation from AD 43 to 410 (Such as this article about the Westoe Netty, the subject of a famous painting from Bob Olley. and this article on the famous Westoe Netty origin and restoration.) and which may have become the adjective netti in Italian and the verb nettoyer in French.

Concentrating on the gabi-netti/gabi-netto separate root passage, with the Italian migration thinking inert, thus making the Geordie netty' and gabinetti roots separated. We can see a shared meaning, that happened, despite root separation through lack of regional Romanic migration since AD 410.

Gabbi: in gabi-netti/gabi-netto (toilet/toilets), is the Romanic Italian diminutive of gabbia, which derives from the Roman Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that also became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol

Nett: In French, another later Romanic language, like Italian et al, the verb nettoyer means to wipe. And in Romanic Italian the adjective netti, means to clean. Signifying again the root of Nett, in gabi-netti, nettoyer, Roman slang Netti/Netty and Geordie netty goes back to Roman times. If weighting using Roman Latin roots; Nett has been historically used as a place and a process for basic human hygiene, refreshment and relief, to wipe clean since at least the Roman times.

Putting Gabbi, which is derived from the Roman Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure"), and putting it with with the Latin Root of nett, (found in nettoyer, netty and gabinetti et al) we can elucidate more using the Romanic Gabi-netti. Using its Roman Latin roots we can see highlighted an outside Roman toilet, with a cavity, and convenience to refresh away from the dwellings for hygiene, which later became an inside toilet enclosure when the technology became available. The same way the Geordie netty, which came from a separate root, came from Latin following AD 410.

‘’’Back to my talk,’’’ is it me or is your latest edits concerned with the modern romanic Italian thinking?

And my latest edit is mainly concerned with the latin root theory, using your gabbi hyper link?

Maybe this is really an argument about nothing, and my restructuring will help separate the three bits of thinking?

‘’P.S. Please don't sign up puppet accounts, it is against the rules...yet again.Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 15:58, 21 September 2008 (UTC)’’ You said.

It wasn’t a sock puppet account, as you can see quite clearly I did not pretend it wasn’t me to win an argument (you pointed to authority illegitimatise me, yet I have done nothing wrong.), I gave disclosure and I wasn’t trying to get one up on you with the use of my other account, I gave you information that I was me, so it was an accident. I edit wiki using IP’s and different accounts, that is my way, I don’t use one account because of the fact my accounts have been stalked and vandalized in the past. I don’t want that hassle, which is my choice.

For the sake of disclosure, again I will be the tag toasted, hopefully, if I remember to log out of my last page I edited last. And if I’m not then anyone can see I’m me when I discuss with you, just by the continuation context.

PS, toasty here again, maybe for Reference for a third party, who may specialize in etymology

Here are the two differences between our edits, I’m sure someone can look through and see an edit using premise with the cites and hyper links etc.

I’m hoping we wont need you as maybe the latin niti-dus is the latin nidere he was talking about in some way, or he may accept the newly brought into the conversation Latin root niti-dus anyway even, if say it is not nidere.

‘’’Toasty here again, Here is how roughly Sig Slayer on the 21st Sept wants it left:’’’

The geordie word netty, meaning a toilet and place of need and necessity for relief or bathroom, has an uncertain origin,though some have theorised that it may come from slang used by Roman soldiers on Hadrian's Wall, which may have later become gabinetti in the Romanic Italian language (Such as this article about the Westoe Netty, the subject of a famous painting from Bob Olley. Another article about the Westoe Netty is featured here ). However gabbinetto is the Modern Italian diminutive of gabbia, which actually derives from the Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol. Thus, another explanation would be that it comes from a Modern Romanic Italian form of the word gabinetti. Though only a, relatively, small number of Italians have migrated to the North of England, mostly during the 19th century.

Some etymologists connect the word netty to the Modern English word needy. John Trotter Brockett, writing in 1829 in his A glossary of north country words..., claims that the etymon of netty (and it's related form neddy) is the Modern English needy and need

Bill Griffiths, in A Dictionary of North East Dialect points to the earlier form, the Old English níd; he writes thusly "MS locates a possible early ex. "Robert Hovyngham sall make... at the other end of his house a knyttyng" York 1419, in which case the root could be OE níd 'neccesary'".

Another related word, nessy is thought (by Griffiths) to derive from the Modern English "neccesary".

‘’’toasty here again, here is roughly how I’ve edited, notice the structuring of the three points/bits of thinking (though I’ve left out the numbering as I don’t want to baby feed any reader), also please notice I have respected his latest edits([83] [84] [85] [86] [87]).

I have respected his edits with regards to his paragraph edit

However gabbinetto is the Romanic modern Italian diminutive of gabbia, which actually derives from the Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol.[88] [89] [90] [91] [92]

At least give me credit for that.

Also, I’ve made a slight reedit since my only other edit on the 20th or was it the 21st(?), for disclosure the changes to my one previous edit on page [93]

are minor restructuring, and a paragraph

a paragraph which is

It is off interest the Romanic Italian netto/ netti, the Romanic French word and Romanic Catalan word net, the English word neat, the Romanic Spanish word nítido are all share phonographic sounding, similar to netty and all these words are root related to the Latin niti-dus which also means to clean, shine and polish, a matter of hygiene.

Anyway here is roughly my edit on the 22nd incase he see’s some fault and reverts:

The geordie word netty, meaning a toilet, a place of need and necessity for relief, bathroom, has an uncertain origin,

Thinking Point 1: Some etymologists connect the word netty to the Modern English word needy. John Trotter Brockett, writing in 1829 in his A glossary of north country words..., suggests that the etymon[94] of netty (and it's related form neddy) is the Modern English needyand need

Bill Griffiths, in A Dictionary of North East Dialect points to an earlier form, the Old English níd, he writes thusly "MS locates a possible early ex. "Robert Hovyngham sall make... at the other end of his house a knyttyng" York 1419, in which case the root could be OE níd 'neccesary'".

Another related word, nessy is thought (by Griffiths) to derive from the Modern English "neccesary".

Thinking Point 2: However gabbinetto is the Romanic modern Italian diminutive of gabbia, which actually derives from the Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol. So an explanation could be that the term netty comes directly from the Romanic Italian form of the word gabinetti. Though only a, relatively, small number of Italians have migrated to the North of England, mostly during the 19th century.. Making this possibility more inert, and keeping the roots of the Geordie Netty and Italian gabinetti separated on different descending paths from what can only be the shared Latin parent.

Thinking Point 3: It is theorised, Netty, using the passage of Latin roots that it may have come from Latin slang used by Roman soldiers on Hadrian's Wall, which may have later in a separate root become gabinetti in the descending Romanic Italian language after the Roman occupation from AD 43 to 410 (Such as this article about the Westoe Netty, the subject of a famous painting from Bob Olley. and this article on the famous Westoe Netty origin and restoration.) and which may have become the adjective netti in Italian and the verb nettoyer in French.

Concentrating on the two root words in gabi-netti/gabi-netto separate root passage, with the Italian migration thinking inert, thus making the Geordie netty' and gabinetti roots separated. We can see a shared meaning, that happened, "despite" root separation through lack of regional Romanic migration since AD 410.

The root word Gabbi: in gabi-netti/gabi-netto (toilet/toilets), is the Romanic Italian diminutive of gabbia, which derives from the Roman Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that also became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol

The root word Nett: In French, another later Romanic language, like Italian et al, the verb nettoyer means to wipe. And in Romanic Italian the adjective netti, means to clean. Signifying the root of Nett, in gabi-netti, nettoyer, Roman slang Netti/Netty and Geordie netty, goes back to Roman times. If weighting using separated Roman Latin roots; Nett/Net it can be argued ‘ "Nett" been historically used as a place and a process for basic human hygiene, refreshment and relief, to wipe clean since at least the Roman times.

It is off interest the Romanic Italian netto/ netti, the Romanic French word and Romanic Catalan word net, the English word neat, the Romanic Spanish word nítido are all share phonographic sounding, similar to netty and all these words are root related to the Latin niti-dus which also means to clean, shine and polish, a matter of hygiene.

Putting the Latin root Gabbi, which is derived from the Roman Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure"), and putting it with with Latin Root of nett, (found in nettoyer, netty and gabinetti et al) we can elucidate more using the Romanic Gabi-netti. Using its Roman Latin roots we can see highlighted an outside Roman toilet, with a cavity, hollow, and convenience to refresh away from the dwellings for hygiene, which later became an inside toilet enclosure when the technology became available. The same way the Geordie netty, which came from a separate root, came from Latin following AD 410.

‘’’Again as you can see’’’

“However gabbinetto is the Romanic modern Italian diminutive of gabbia, which actually derives from the Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol.”

I have now acknowledged your/his recent edits ([95] [96] [97] [98] [99]). Concerned with and highlighted in point 2.

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It's still original research, and overly biased towards it coming directly from Latin, rather than from Italian, Old English or Modern Standard English.

it is your opinion that it has to come directly from Latin rather than the Italian gabbinetti, and cannot come from any other language, and most of split after the Romans left Britannia, despite the fact we have very little Roman migration to the area and the inhabitants spoke Brythonic before the Anglo-Saxon settlement which made the language of the area Old English...so at no period was Latin the language spoken by the inhabitants of the area. Even the soldiers used to speak, Germanic, Gaulish...etc...as their first languages, as very view "Romans" served on the wall. By your argument it could come from French (many French loanwords entered the language due to the Normans) ...however we cannot state that either as it is original research.

Again, the -netto in gabbinetto (not gabbi-netto a you write it...which is ridiculous) is not from the same root and only makes it a diminutive just as ringlet is a diminutive of ring.

So I shall remove your original research, and from what I have seen while checking the article, butchering of that section, moving the order to create the impression that your opinion is the most commonly accepted viewpoint, when it is not, and is not supported by any etymologists or the other sources.

Find the research then add it, don't try to do it yourself.

Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 11:46, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

*Sigurd, I'm toasty and you have been reverting my edits for the past two days.

Sigurd, you cant point at vague 'original research'http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Geordie&diff=240208527&oldid=240202682

for authority as your recent edits of concern[100] [101] [102] [103] [104] are as original as mine, you are theorisng using material and so am I. 

Not only that the material you used in your origional material[105] [106] [107] [108] [109], is part of the original material I'm using in my edits.

Sigurd, You invalidate your own recent edits if you vaguely point at 'original material

There seems to be three thinking points which I wrote above, you have edited solely to point two,

I have, using your material, and other material you have not put into the article, added to point 2 have also edited 3.

You have reverted again, and it looks like you are ignoring the material I put in, which has nothing wrong with it.

My material is as original as yours, most of it is the same as yours, we have stalemate there.

The only thing we can go on is who has the best logic using the hyper links and cites.

I think we are going around in circles. I'm going to wait approx 24 hours then I will reedit, if you revert instead of editing the material for wording, I think we should call in a 3rd party.

This is your latest edit of concern which is a revert of my edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Geordie&diff=240208527&oldid=240202682

From toasty, For reference

• here is how you see the text:

The geordie word netty, meaning a toilet and place of need and necessity for relief or bathroom, has an uncertain origin,though some have theorised that it may come from slang used by Roman soldiers on Hadrian's Wall, which may have later become gabinetti in the Romanic Italian language (Such as this article about the Westoe Netty, the subject of a famous painting from Bob Olley. Another article about the Westoe Netty is featured here ). However gabbinetto is the Modern Italian diminutive of gabbia, which actually derives from the Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol. Thus, another explanation would be that it comes from a Modern Romanic Italian form of the word gabinetti. Though only a, relatively, small number of Italians have migrated to the North of England, mostly during the 19th century.

Some etymologists connect the word netty to the Modern English word needy. John Trotter Brockett, writing in 1829 in his A glossary of north country words..., claims that the etymon of netty (and it's related form neddy) is the Modern English needy and need

Bill Griffiths, in A Dictionary of North East Dialect points to the earlier form, the Old English níd; he writes thusly "MS locates a possible early ex. "Robert Hovyngham sall make... at the other end of his house a knyttyng" York 1419, in which case the root could be OE níd 'neccesary'".

Another related word, nessy is thought (by Griffiths) to derive from the Modern English "neccesary".

• This is how I edited the text[110]

The geordie word netty, meaning a toilet, a place of need and necessity for relief, bathroom, has an uncertain origin,

Thinking point 1: Some etymologists connect the word netty to the Modern English word needy. John Trotter Brockett, writing in 1829 in his A glossary of north country words..., suggests that the etymon[111] of netty (and it's related form neddy) is the Modern English needyand need

Bill Griffiths, in A Dictionary of North East Dialect points to an earlier form, the Old English níd, he writes thusly "MS locates a possible early ex. "Robert Hovyngham sall make... at the other end of his house a knyttyng" York 1419, in which case the root could be OE níd 'neccesary'".

Another related word, nessy is thought (by Griffiths) to derive from the Modern English "neccesary".

Thinking point 2: However gabbinetto is the Romanic modern Italian diminutive of gabbia, which actually derives from the Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol. So an explanation could be that the term netty comes directly from the Romanic Italian form of the word gabinetti. Though only a, relatively, small number of Italians have migrated to the North of England, mostly during the 19th century.. Making this possibility more inert, and keeping the roots of the Geordie Netty and Italian gabinetti separated on different descending paths from what can only be the shared Latin parent.

Thinking point 3: It is theorised, Netty, using the passage of Latin roots that it may have come from Latin slang used by Roman soldiers on Hadrian's Wall, which may have later in a separate root become gabinetti in the descending Romanic Italian language after the Roman occupation from AD 43 to 410 (Such as this article about the Westoe Netty, the subject of a famous painting from Bob Olley. and this article on the famous Westoe Netty origin and restoration.) and which may have become the adjective netti in Italian and the verb nettoyer in French.

Concentrating on the two roots in gabi-netti/gabi-netto separate root passage, with the Italian migration thinking inert, thus making the Geordie netty' and gabinetti roots separated. We can see a shared meaning, that happened, "despite" root separation through lack of regional Romanic migration since AD 410.

Gabbi: in gabi-netti/gabi-netto (toilet/toilets), is the Romanic Italian diminutive of gabbia, which derives from the Roman Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that also became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol

Nett: In French, another later Romanic language, like Italian et al, the verb nettoyer means to wipe. And in Romanic Italian the adjective netti, means to clean. Signifying the root of Nett, in gabi-netti, nettoyer, Roman slang Netti/Netty and Geordie netty, goes back to Roman times. If weighting using separated Roman Latin roots; Nett/Net it can be argued ‘ "Nett" been historically used as a place and a process for basic human hygiene, refreshment and relief, to wipe clean since at least the Roman times.

It is off interest the Italian netto/ netti, the French word net, the English word neat, the Spanish word nítido are all share phonographic sounding, similar to netty and all these words are root related to the Latin niti-dus which also means to clean, shine and polish.

Putting Gabbi, which is derived from the Roman Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure"), and putting it with with the Latin Root of nett, (found in nettoyer, netty and gabinetti et al) we can elucidate more using the Romanic Gabi-netti. Using its Roman Latin roots we can see highlighted an outside Roman toilet, with a cavity, hollow, and convenience to refresh away from the dwellings for hygiene, which later became an inside toilet enclosure when the technology became available. The same way the Geordie netty, which came from a separate root, came from Latin following AD 410. --62.31.69.39 (talk) 14:42, 22 September 2008 (UTC) <<<<<< I just want to point out that this IP is me--Toasted874 (talk) 14:47, 22 September 2008 (UTC), I didn't log in again.

, it is toasted here, I’ve requested a Third Opinion on this Netty matter

Hello Sigurd, I have rquested a third opinion on the Netty matter, with regards to your revert and my edit to which both are referenced above above.

I get the impression you are going to revert again.

How My Piece(Toasted) Improves The Article

I have added detail, dates (410AD etc), better links, I have separated all the talking thinking points into an order Thinking point 1. is The necessary OE thinking; 2. Another is the modern hence Romanic Italian route; 3. and the third one is the Latin route which shows just how the Romanic Gabinetti/Gabinetto route has been separated.

Those are the three thinking points of the root of Netty and I have put them in order (I can think of one more thinking point to make it four but at the moment I’m not putting it in yet as this might confuse this discussion).

I have used the material that was already there and not abused it, everything cited remains factually correct. I have used the paragraph you put in in these edits [112] [113] [114] [115] [116], the paragraph which is:

However gabbinetto is the Romanic modern Italian diminutive of gabbia, which actually derives from the Latin cavea ("hollow", "cavity", "enclosure") the root of the loanwords that became the Modern English cave, cage, and gaol.

Which is concerned with thinking point 2 (ctrl+f Thinking point 2), and which you put in. And to which I respected when I added to thinking point two, using the separation cite.

In thinking point three, my main edit, I have used all the material that is in the article that gives a detailed logic to thinking point three. I have used roots, separated routes with a cite, and used examples of romanic Italian and old English words that are similar to Netty.

In any of my edits I have not concluded anything.

--Toasted874 (talk) 10:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Third opinion

Hi all! I have reviewed this and I honestly think that you should take the issue to The Wiktionary Tea Room and let them have a bash at it. They have come up with the etymology of the word and would be in a better position to help you. If you disagree, let me know and I'll give it a shot here. :-) fr33kman ^{t - c} 19:02, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

That would be fine. As long as they bear in mind, that sources would need to be found, and not just another wikipedian's opinion. That is:

• A source to connect the word Netto with the meaning to clean.

• A source that connects "gabinetto" to "nitidus"..etc.. which cannot be found as it isn't connected. I found a perfectly good source that states it is merely a diminutive of "gabbia" and not "gabbia-" plus the word "netto", that Toasted is on about.

• A valid source that connects "netty" and "neddy" to "nitidus", or one that connects it to a descendant of the word.

My contention is not the root (though Toasted's "theory" of its "etymology" has no basis in reality and was made up just to support a theory he is obsessed with) but the fact we don't have sources to connect it to the article, and also Toasted's claims that it can only be directly from Latin and not from a far later Latin word. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 13:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Hello Sigurd.

I would like to point out I'm not obsessed with any of the four thinking points (there is three written but there is four), unlike you who is stuck on point 2. Look at the history on this (your discussion page) page with regards to Netty to see your obsession.

First off a theory is not a conclusion, but it is based onevidence and logic,it is not something grabbed out of thin air. All the three thinking points are theories. If you say a theory means it is pulled down, then all four thinking points must be pulled down. And you have invalidated your argument.

BTW I'm not the one jumping with words like 'however,' that back up a Gabbia thinking in point two to back up a theory. I'm the one who is treating all thinking points equally. Which you are not.

Before I begin think of 'cake and eat it,' in regards with gabbia.

In the text there is three talking points.

1. O.E, necassary. 2. Modern 'Romanic' Italian. 3 Latin roots. 4. There is a fourth one that hasn't been put in yet (but to not complex what is a simple discussion).

Right your edit was around thinking point 2. And you put in a information about 'Gabbia.'

I used this information about Gabbia, to mainly expand point three and validate point three, with neutral words with the evidence; notice how I have not concluded anything in any of the points. For interest I also done a tiny edit on point two, which had a citation.

Now as far as I'm concerned my edit is neutrally worded with the logic using evidence around the Gabbia link you put in (where I also used one more cite than you). The link which did not back up the point two meaning, or point three meaning in any way.

This would mean anyone who looks into this conflict has three choices

And the three choices are, not in any order:

1. back up my edit as being correct.

2. Accept my edit but reword it slightly (though in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with it's wording, I have not jumped into a sentence with, 'However.'Like Sig did in thinking point two.

3. Do not accept my edit, which would invalidate Sigs edit as Sigs edit too used the ambiguous Gabbia link, I (toasted) expanded on. Which means revert the piece to the edit before your edit. (Before here >>>>> [117] [118] [119] [120] [121])

4. There is a fourth choice, the cake and eat it choice for Sigurd, but I think this one is invalidated, saying I expanded on the same gabbia link Sigurd put in.

--Toasted874 (talk) 10:29, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Third opinion

Fr33kman (talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.

Viewpoint by (Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk))

I shall write my views as bullet points:

• It would be biased to claim that "netty" comes from a Latin slang word, as it could come from another root...I have posted other theories.
• The only Etymologists that have been found to reference "netty" do not claim it is from a Latin slang word, but one says it is from neid (he says the etymon is needy which is from that word) and the other says it could be from gabbinetto or from neid (or nid to use that spelling).
• I have found an etymological source (which is referenced on the page) that states that gabbinetto is diminutive of gabbia and does not state it is from the Latin nitidus or nett root as Toasted claims.
• Even if the above is correct (it isn't in my mind) it would still be original research.
• Toasted keeps putting unsourced opinions into the work claiming that it is most likely from his favoured origin, when as stated we have other theories from Etymological sources.
• The only source that claims it is from a Latin slang word is a newspaper not an Etymological source.
• What is this Latin slang word? We have Latin words such as nitidus...etc...however we have no evidence or source of this slang word.
• Toasted also adding an unsourced opinion that Italian migration to the North East was too small for it to effect the language, all despite the easily referenced fact that we have no evidence for largescale Italian immigration into the area during the Roman era, even the soldiers were mostly Germanic, Gallic, Arabian or North African and not Italic. Most of the population remained Brythonic.
• He/She also added his/her opinion that the word would have to be directly from Latin and not from a descended language such as French or Italian, which is completely unsourced and if I dare say so myself, unlikely.
• He also keeps implying that the most accepted view is that it is from the slang-word when the only Etymologists found think it is from gabbinetto or the same source as need.

In short the article is neutral and truthful without Toasted's biased and unsourced recent edits, and should remain so.

That is my main point that the edits are unsourced and mostly opinions.

Viewpoint by (name here)

....

Third opinion by Fr33kman

....

Encyclopaedias don't decide where a term originates: we report the view points of others, ie: scholars. To that end I think that it's important to be as general as possible in articles with a view to how the reader (our audience and who we edit for) would view things. We have to remember that articles are written by experts for lay-people: not experts for experts. So, we have to avoid confusing the reader: this is paramount! It is not, therefore, up to editors to decide where a term originated, but merely report the views of experts. If there ae multiple opinions as to the etymology of a word, then we have a duty to the reader to report all those that have WP:RS that provide WP:V for them. The origins of the noun Netty are uncertain but it seems clear that it may be of Italian (not Latin [although the Italian word may be Latin in origin]) decent. It would be interesting to find a hard-copy of this source and see what it says, as it would be for this one also.

Basically, any reference that is reliable and shows where it may have originated should be used. But, the article must state that its real origins are unknown. fr33kman -s- 00:10, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay, it seems that Wiktionary declined to help I think that was because the way it was approached; a better way would have simply been to post the question - "Q: What is the etymology of the English word netty?"

Anyways, let's take a stab at it here. Write the basics of each of your positions in the relevant sections above. Please do not edit, add to or respond to each others position above; and please keep it below 400 words each.

Thanks :-) fr33kman -s- 23:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Gaulish language

Please do not move around long-standing articles without prior discussion. It tends to create unproductive overhead. --dab (𒁳) 17:23, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I didn't do any such thing. I think my friend was (accidently) using my account today (as I was on his PC earlier and must have forgot to log out). Though you were not to know that so I can't hold you responisble.

Though from looking at the article it probably needs changing come to think of it. (talk) 18:21, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Ƿes þū hal

Iċ sēah þæt nime þū þā bysene Hǣðen and ASR fram þǣre Engliscan Ƿicipǣdian, ac eart þū ƿǣre Hǣðen? — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ (talk) 06:30, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Iċ mǣste bēo Hǣðen. Iċ bēo léohtlice Hindu in ūðwitegung swā hit broþor-ǣfæstness.

(Sorry about any mistakes in Englisc as I am better at reading it than writing) Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 14:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)