User talk:Shanefiddle

Models for soy allergy

Milk allergy and Egg allergy have been raised to Good Article status (my work). I recommend those articles as models for improving the soy allergy article, which will include moving sections, etc. As with all articles in the medicine/health arena, Wikipedia's guideline is that references meet a higher standard than might be OK elsewhere. The root problem is that there is a LOT of contradictory information for treatment health claims. People writing for magazines, websites - even Mayo Clinic - can either over-simplify or base statements on a superficial read of the science literature. The guidelines at WP:MEDRS are that Wikipedia content be supported by review, systematic review and meta-analysis articles published in reputable science journals. Content should not rest on in vitro studies, animal studies, or even individual clinical trials. David notMD (talk) 10:20, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. I'll give those a read tomorrow. For working purposes, here is the section I wrote last night:

In the two articles I mentioned, Under Treatment, there are subsections: Avoiding dairy and Avoiding eggs. Those are models for where the soy list of foods and food additives should be moved to. What you've written, a "best practices" how-to guide for avoiding soy foods, is not appropriate. David notMD (talk) 10:42, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

P.S. OrthoBethesda does not meet WP:MEDRS David notMD (talk) 10:46, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

The problem of eating

For those individuals with a serious soy allergy, eating can become very challenging in the United States and Europe, where soy is present in most commercially prepared food. Award winning author Raj Patel wrote in his book Stuffed & Starved that soy is in roughly 75% of products on supermarket shelves and nearly 100% of fast food. As McDonald's states on their website: "...cross contact between food items is always a risk in any working kitchen, therefore we cannot guarantee that any food items are soy-free even if soy is not an ingredient." Since the recommended treatment for a soy allergy, like any allergy, is to abstain from eating the substance, and many soy substances are exempt from labeling requirements making it very hard to achieve this, a state of chronic illness and inflammation of the joints and internal organs can arise, with no discernible cause. This can lead to serious health complications if unaddressed.

Best practices then follow for those with a serious soy allergy:

1. Eat foods cooked in your own kitchen from whole ingredients, such as rice, unwaxed fruit and vegetables, dairy, and unprocessed meats (avoid hamburger and sausage for example)
2. Read all commercially prepared food's ingredients thoroughly, and be aware that even if soy is not an ingredient, cross-contamination may have occurred in the commercial kitchens
3. Don't eat fast food
4. When eating at a restaurant, request a very simple meal cooked in a clean/unused pan using olive oil, with no spices, sauces or garnish added. Don't be afraid to leave if they cannot do this.

Shanefiddle, you are invited to the Teahouse!

Hi Shanefiddle! Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia. Be our guest at the Teahouse! The Teahouse is a friendly space where new editors can ask questions about contributing to Wikipedia and get help from experienced editors like Rosiestep (talk). Visit the Teahouse We hope to see you there! Delivered by HostBot on behalf of the Teahouse hosts 16:06, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

'Original research' not allowed

What an individual knows to be true (or deduces) cannot be used. Only verified information. Citric acid extracted from citrus has been shown to trigger an allergic response. Citric acid can be made from okara. However, there is no evidence in the science literature that soy-sourced citric acid can trigger an allergic reaction. David notMD (talk) 17:38, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

There is no study of citric acid from soy

Meh. It is a ridiculous situation when people with the actual ailment know so much more about it than the medical profession. I see why wikipedia uses these guidelines, but it is incredibly frustrating. Citric acid for example is a widely known soy allergen among those of us with a severe soy allergy. We each discovered it by having an allergic reaction and being sick over and over - and it took each person I have talked to years to figure out why they kept getting sick from eating, for example, canned tomatoes. Turns out they have citric acid as an additive. I just wish the medical profession would catch up some day, and actually study this. They mostly have no idea what is and is not creating allergic reactions in people with actual soy allergies. I suspect part of the problem is that they are studying children, who are not very good at communicating or figuring out patterns. Meanwhile the adults with a severe soy allergy try to avoid the medical profession all together because we are exposed to soy almost every single time we are given oral medication. It is a pretty horrifying state of affairs.--Shanefiddle (talk) 21:00, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Sadly, Wikipedia is a trailing indicator for science. David notMD (talk) 01:56, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Edit warring

You and I are in a pattern of you adding content (citric acid, Vitamin E) and me deleting the same as not supported by the science literature. I have suggested we discuss this at the Talk page of the article, perhaps to reach consensus there with other editors being involved. If you continue to add content which in my scientific opinion does not belong in the article I will initiate an edit warring review. This may lead to one or both of us being temporarily blocked from editing Wikipedia. I understand that you have a strong personal interest in the Soy allergy article covering all possible foods, food ingredients, symptoms, etc. which you believe based on personal experience and communications with other people with soy allergy, but that does not mean adding unsubstantiated content to the article. Please talk this up at the Talk page. David notMD (talk) 20:40, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

David, thank you for pointing out the talk page for the article, I was not aware it was there. Yes, I am a firm believer in people making better choices when they have all the information available. I would like to see every soy product listed on the soy allergy page, so people with the allergy have a choice about whether to eat it or not, in consultation with their doctor. I will need help in discovering them all, because they have been named so many different things. Our current list barely scratches the surface. I would like to see a list of substances used for medication which are made from soy on this page. I would like to see a list of soy ingredients that are used in skin creams, toothpastes, dental office substances, and hand soaps. Anything that is absorbed into the body. We are barely scratching the surface so far.

I hope we are not in a war. That is not my goal. I have tried to incorporate your thoughts into each of my edits, maybe not entirely, but somewhere in between. Let's try not to war, but find a middle way.

Each addition/subtraction to the article can be evaluated on its merit. Wikipedia's WP:BRD suggests being bold in making edits, if reverted, to to Talk to discuss (and hopefully reach consensus). My mention of edit warring was not about your edits in general, even if I disagree. Rather, it was about repeating insertions into the article. That said, I see nothing in the science literature about soy in topical products (skin creams, soaps, etc.) that triggers an allergic reaction. David notMD (talk) 01:55, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Ok, and thanks for explaining, the culture and systems in Wikipedia are something I am still learning. In regards to there being nothing in the literature about topical products causing an allergic reaction, if you think about how doctors test for food allergies, by putting a small drop of the substance under the top layer of skin, and watching to see if it swells up, you can see that this is established knowledge. Allergic substances which enter the body through the skin do cause an allergic reaction, it is a widely established phenomenon.

In addition, the advice of every organization and doctor around allergies I have spoken to and read agrees that avoiding putting the substance into your body in the first place is the best and only preventative treatment. How severe the allergy is determines how rigorously each individual must do this, and needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis... that is not our role, that is up to the individual and their doctor. To do that though, they need good information: they need to know what is reported by reputable sources to come from soy. That is wikipedia's role you have said, to share demonstrably true and tested information. A manufacturer stating their product is made from soy is exactly that sort of information. If we choose to share only part of the information, we are placing ourselves in the role of the doctor, and limiting affected individuals options by omission. The US FDA has made certain choices around what should be labelled, which we can also report. That does not preclude us from reporting also all the names for soy in food and products, so people can make their own decisions.--Shanefiddle (talk) 05:23, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Sources

Hi, we need a source explicitly about food allergies for us to be able to add claims about food allergies. Your source was only about allergies in general. It's good to first find reliable medical sources about the subject, and then summarize what they say. – Thjarkur (talk) 00:36, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! I believe the other source that was there already only listed allergic responses to food allergies generally as well. We may need to scrap the list and start over. --Shanefiddle (talk) 01:15, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

I just read your comment more carefully, I understand I think: we need sources specifically about food allergies, but they can be about food allergies in general, they do not need to be specific to soy, is that correct? Thanks again --Shanefiddle (talk) 05:59, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

• I would support a sub-section with a title Non-food sources. Content, with references, could address drugs that have been shown to trigger an allergic reaction because of a soy ingredient - most often soy lecithin.

I have started this as "Non-food exposure to soy" David notMD (talk) 15:47, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

• As to the comment above, the advice was to not include allergy symptoms in this article if those pertained to inhaled allergens (pollen, etc.). I would advise going one further and limiting a list to symptoms triggered by soy and soy-sourced ingredients,not just food allergy symptoms in general.
• My position is that the less-allergenic soy derivatives subsection be limited to substances usually considered non-allergenic, and sometimes exempt from food labeling, for which there exists science literature for triggering allergic responses. Hence, "yes" for soybean oil and soy lecithin, "no" for citric acid and vitamin E.

At some point in the future, when this article becomes stable again, I will ask a non-involved editor to assess whether it merits being upgraded from Start-class to C-class or even B-class. My own goals in the food allergy arena are to create articles for fish allergy and shellfish allergy, as currently a search within Wikipedia on those topics diverts to the Food allergy article. Also, I would like to see Peanut allergy raised to Good article status. David notMD (talk) 09:58, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Sounds good. And regarding the fish and shellfish allergy, our work on FPIES here on the soy allergy may be useful there too, since there are FPIES patients who react similarly to shellfish. --Shanefiddle (talk) 21:02, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

A question: how will you know what soy foods are non-allergenic for all types of soy allergy? Are there studies demonstrating that some soy substances have never had an allergic response in both IgE and non-IgE allergic individuals? I would hesitate to make that call without a solid set of studies of all types of affected individuals. --Shanefiddle (talk) 22:32, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

User name

Now that you have registered, consider adding content to your User name page. The general idea is to have information about yourself pertaining to intent as a Wikipedia editor. This could be as simple as stating you are a person diagnosed with a severe allergy to soy, and are interested in improving the soy allergy article. David notMD (talk) 10:04, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Soy allergy rating...

...upgraded from Start-class to C-class. While I disagree with Z that the article is not worthy of B-status, I am glad that all the work conducted since October has been recognized as improving the article. David notMD (talk) 00:05, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

It's not a "they." Z is an editor who does a lot of work on health topics, but he is not an administrator. Any editor can change ratings up (and down) from Stub-, Start-, C- and B-class. Editors are advised but not prohibited from rate-changing articles they have worked on. Improving an article involves adding content, removing content, checking references, copyediting for clarity and grammar, adding images, etc. The next step up the scale from B-class is Good Article. Editors who undertake this task are expected to know the GA criteria. The process is improve the article, nominate it for a GA review, then respond to the reviewer's requests to further improve the article. See Wikipedia:Content assessment for guidelines. Note that in English Wikipedia, only about 0.5% of all articles have achieved GA. Over years, I have raised seven articles to GA, including milk allergy and egg allergy. The process is tedious. If you look at the Soy allergy article history, you will see that when I started on it in October 2017 the article was very short and had only nine references. David notMD (talk) 12:18, 15 November 2019 (UTC)