User talk:Rua/Archives/2021/March

Question about palatalization in Slavonic

Hello, Rua. On the Historical Linguistics StackExchange today somebody has asked a question about something in our Proto-Slavic language article. The text in question is not specifically sourced, and I have drawn a blank looking for anything about it. I have determined that it was you that inserted the text in question into History of the Slavic languages in this edit in 2013, so I thought I'd ask you if you can elucidate for the poor questioner. --ColinFine (talk) 17:48, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

The most obvious example is the class of verbs with a present in -i- and an infinitive in palatalised consonant + -ati. For example *blьščati, *ležati, *slyšati. These verbs historically belong to the -ěti class, but following the palatalisation the vowel became -a-. It can also be observed in words such as *čara, *čarъ, *časъ, *žaba, *žalь, *žarъ. Rua (mew) 18:47, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Do you know why is "In natively coined and inherited Slavic words, the second palatalization occurs only before the new *ě < *aj" (from Slavic_second_palatalization) but врагъ (vragŭ, enemy) / враѕи (vradzi, enemies), where vradzi is a PIE *ey (Proto-Slavic *i)? 2A00:1370:8139:C69:E536:37D6:8D0B:3A04 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:07, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Just as there is *ě₁ and *ě₂ there is also *i₁ and *i₂. Both *ě₂ and *i₂ seem to come from a Balto-Slavic *ai, and the conditioning for the outcome isn't exactly clear, but they both trigger the second palatalisation. More information can be found at Monophthongization of diphthongs in Proto-Slavic. Rua (mew) 13:37, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

I noticed, that Latin have similiar outcome lupus / lupi vs vlĭkŭ / vlьci 2A00:1370:8139:C69:1178:B55A:FB41:7819 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 22:39, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

I also noticed that Lithuanian plural adjective forms have different (from nouns, not ai) ending sausas (singular dry) sausì (plural dry) while OCS forms have the same ending *i соухъ (suxŭ) соуси (suśi) 2A00:1370:8139:C69:1178:B55A:FB41:7819 (talk)

Since I mentioned "sausas" I think that Ruki sound law is a satem analogue of Proto-Germanic Verner's law. (compare English / Russian ear ухо, sear сухой, alder ольха, their тех, deer дух) 2A00:1370:8139:C69:1178:B55A:FB41:7819 (talk)

Could you also help me? What type of ablaut is бьрати bĭrati (to gather) / берѫ berǫ (I gather)? 2A00:1370:8139:C69:C3D:2A6E:B577:5EEA (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 02:01, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure. There are several verbs with the ending -ti that have an alternative in -ati, so maybe this too at one point had a counterpart *bьrti. This infinitive form would actually be a direct descendant of a case form of *bʰértis. Such a shorter infinitive would explain the ablaut, it's a direct continuation of the oblique stem of the noun. When the infinitive in -ati was created, the stem vowel was simply retained. Rua (mew) 18:45, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

There is also дьрати dĭrati (to tear) / дерѫ derǫ (I tear), the previous one was cognate to modern English verb bear. I know that PGmc *e before "r" in Gothic is lengthened as well as PS *e in OS after "r" (liquid metathesis) i.e. bairga (I keep) vs брѣгѫ brěgǫ (I care), hairda (a herd) vs чрѣда črěda (a herd). Here we have the closed syllable bairga, hairda. The situation doesn't change in Gothic in open syllable bairan ga-tairan, but in Slavic does bĭrati dĭrati. I mean the lengthened Slavic ě may give ĭ.a before "r" in open syllable like ě₁ give a palatalisation (j ~ ĭ before vowels) + a. By the way PGmc *e before vowels in Gothic is also lengthened sai-an (to sow), wai-an (to blow) compare Slavic сѣти sěti, вѣꙗти vějati ПростаРечь (talk) 22:12, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Gothic ⟨ai⟩ can represent both short and long vowels. There is no lengthening involved, it keeps the same length it had in Proto-Germanic. Rua (mew) 11:45, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

You are right but Old Slavic ě also represent both short чрѣда črěda (a herd) Proto-Slavic čerda and long vowels вѣꙗти vějati (to blow) Proto-Slavic vějati. I have used the incorrect term "...PGmc *e before "r" in Gothic is diphthongized as well as PS *e in OS "ligaturized" after "r" (liquid metathesis)." I also suggest that Yat ѣ is a ligatur in which a сyrillic ь (from below) and glagolitic "Ⰰ" [corresponding to сyrillic "a"] (atop) are joined:

1. In the Cyrillic alphabet "ь" is followed by Yat "ѣ".
2. The Cyrillic alphabet have letters likely derived from the Glagolitic alphabet e.g. "ш"
4. Cyrillic Yat ѣ and Iotated A Ꙗ rendering the same Glagolitic letter.
5. ѣ₁ triggers the firt palatalization (in my opinion ja ~ ьа ~ ѣ₁) and gives a resulting vowel "a"
5+. Gothic "i" in some cases corresponding to Old Slavic "ь":
stikls стькло (beaker / glass)
mizdo мьзда (reward)
lists льсть (a cunning plan / intrigue)
katils котьлъ (kettle)
asilus осьлъ (donkey)

ПростаРечь (talk) 23:05, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

In principle, Slavic ě always represents a long syllable, but you have to remember that there were liquid diphthongs too. The sequence er was such a liquid diphthong, it counted as long like a regular diphthong or long vowel and could therefore be acuted in Proto-Balto-Slavic. When it changed to rě in some Slavic varieties, this simply means that the length of the syllable was preserved. The same can be seen in the parallel development ar > rā (which in standard Slavic notation is or > ra). It has nothing to do with ligatures.

The late/dialectal stages of Proto-Slavic do not, however, preserve Balto-Slavic length in general. What were once pairs of short and long vowels had now become differentiated by quality (o and a no longer sounded the same), and short vowels could be lengthened, long vowels be shortened, while keeping their originally distinct vowel quality. That is how modern dialects end up with "long o", why Czech has both a and á, and so on.

Also, Gothic ⟨ai⟩ is not a diphthong, it represents the sound /ɛ(ː)/. Rua (mew) 09:32, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Could you pease give a link to Old Saxon blaian / waian, I unfortunately didn't find them http://www.koeblergerhard.de/aswbhinw.html https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783110232349/html ПростаРечь (talk) 14:40, 12 March 2021 (UTC)