User talk:Rikstar/Sandbox

Let's start over - new sandbox version proposed

Due to general feelings of dissatisfaction with the Elvis Presley main article, I have edited it down, but added much needed images, to half the size.

Everyone please note: this is not what I consider a finished piece; no version of it will please everyone; it has been a sincere attempt to cut bloat and editors should refrain from adding, or re-adding, extraneous stuff; I have not included links to all sub articles; it may contain errors, and anyone is free to suggest corrections.

And please, in the spirit of wikipedia, let's make all comments/criticism helpful, encouraging and positive! Times are hard for many of us and may get worse; if tapping a few keys to improve this article is a welcome source of relief or satisfaction for any of us, please, let's all support it! Happy New year. Rikstar (talk) 01:13, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I for one wholeheartedly support this and reading it recently has given me a much needed boost of renewed enthusiasm and hope of achieving a better understanding of Presley by avoiding the temptation to overhype his achievements or for that matter belittle him for his failings. Either way I believe detracts the reader from what your trying to say.

I recently discussed here on the talk page the myth surrounding his first public appearance. To the editor who corrected it to fifth place thank you,however the bit about the cowboy outfit is still there. I am only mentioning this as it doesn't exactley sit with me very well as the sources I used and the one user: Elvis Fan found with elvis.com all confer with the fifth placing,but mention nothing about the cowboy outfit,makes me wonder if it should stay in the article. Perhaps if we replaced it with "The talent show is broadcast over WELO Radio" Source: elvis.com and the other sources say this a well. Any thoughts? or am I being a little over the top here.--Jaye9 (talk) 11:44, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think what he wore is at all relevant, even it it is true. If it's not in the source, it should be cut. Rikstar (talk) 11:58, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

As you have omitted most of the criticism together with the personal life sections, you should rename the current sandbox version of the article. Perhaps "Elvis Presley's step-by-step development into a gospel-minded rock 'n' roll superstar" would now be a more appropriate title. Sorry, but in view of this new, "abridged" version, I am very happy with the long Wikipedia article as it stands. Onefortyone (talk) 00:11, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

By the way, last year there was a kind of consensus in favor of this relatively short version of the article's first section:

Presley's father, Vernon (April 10, 1916–June 26, 1979) was a malingerer, averse to work and responsibility. He had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. His mother, Gladys Love Smith (April 25, 1912–August 14, 1958), was "voluble, lively, full of spunk," and had alcohol problems. She worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and were married in Pontotoc County on June 17,1933.

Presley was born in East Tupelo, the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn). As an only child he was "unusually close to his mother." The family lived in a two room house just above the poverty line.^b In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for a check forgery. The absence of his father "had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development".

At age ten, Presley won second prize in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show for his rendition of Red Foley's "Old Shep".

In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. At school, Presley was bullied for being different, a stutterer and "a mama's boy." At L. C. Humes High School, he was viewed as "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy"; some students made fun of him for playing "trashy" hillbilly music.

In 1949, the family lived at a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in a five-piece band with other tenants. He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and he was mocked for it. Despite any unpopularity, Presley won as a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" singing "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You".

After graduation, Presley was still rather shy and “more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you." His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. Like his fellow drivers, he began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail".

I support this version with the first reference provided above to back the statement of her drinking and Rikstar's additional of their elopement. Lara❤Love 01:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

So do I - let's have some clear preferences noted on here!--Egghead06 (talk) 08:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I concur, absolutely, unequivocally. Except for the omission of the Johnny Burnette quote, but I'm not gonna let that get in the way of this article's progress. Rikstar (talk) 09:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

These are clear statements. However, Rikstar may add the Burnette quote as he thinks it is "interesting and relevant."Onefortyone (talk) 15:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

However, nothing has happened. Onefortyone (talk) 00:25, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Been there, done that, nothing happened, move on.--Jaye9 (talk) 03:32, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

It is interesting that 141 rates so highly a 'B' rated article about Presley; I wonder what changes he thinks will improve it. LaraLove bowed out of this discussion noting that 141 seemed to have an agenda; I am certainly not inclined to get involved in 141's established need to add negative content that many other editors have tired of criticizing, going back many months ago. As Jaye9 says: "Been there, done that, nothing happened, move on." Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 19:47, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I am still unsure as to how important "mainly critically panned" is here in the lede. As a style matter, I think we could avoid emdashes in favor of parens if the meaning is clear, and simple commas in other cases. I really commned the shortening of the article for sure! Any chance of breaking "early years" into two sections ? Perhaps placing the religious influences from his early years into one section? I don't know if it would work <g>. My own personal theory is that users don;t want to see long sections (more than, say, 30 lines or so) but this, again, is pure personal prejudice. Congrats on this! (comments left here as being more appropriate than on the main TEP page) Collect (talk) 13:28, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I have amended the introduction; I agree the comment about the quality of his films isn't necessary. Your comments and support regarding this version are much appreciated. I will return to them when I am able. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 20:37, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

The Early Years section is much, MUCH better without the gratuitous rubbish about how degenerate his parents were, Gladys' drinking, etc. Way better! Maybe it was true, but it's trivial and nasty and deserves to be pitched and ditched. Thanks to whoever trimmed that pointless junk! Bushcutter (talk) 08:31, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Next, do you think it's possible to remove the tags "The King" and "The King of Rock 'n' Roll"? These aren't part of Elvis; they're tags that media types labeled him with. Elvis, in fact, sang "I'm not a king, I'm a man" in 1972. Elvis meant what he sang. Bushcutter (talk) 22:23, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Questioning of sources

I'm questioning a couple of sources that have been used on the Main Page under the title "First recordings and performances". I'll do one at time,wait for a response and then move on to the next one if that's okay.

First being:where is says "(The DJ mispronounced Presley's apparently unusual name as "Elton Preston")[61] Source:Carr and Farren,p.6 My Response: It doesn't make sense to me,when the DJ being Dewey Phillip's could get it wrong, and with such another uncommen name such as Elton and after reading what Jerry Hopkins wrote,who makes no mention of this error, makes it more unbelievable,as Dewey already knew Sam Phillips before he even intervieved Elvis on radio,here's a except from his book about that interview and the playing of the record.(Sorry it's a bit long)

"He was a tall wavy-haired man with a soft voice,a bit of a paunch,a ready grin,and sitting in his shirtsleeved listening to his friend Sam,and then to Elvis's record,he said yes,he liked it too,and he'd sure give it a spin".

"The night Dewey played the record,Elvis tuned the family radio to WHBQ and ran to his favourite escape,the Suzore No.2 theatre. His parents said later he was so nervous,or shy,to be where he might hear his own record. Elvis probably didn't remember which film he was watching that night,because his parents walked the ailes to find him before the movie was over. Dewey had played the record,the listners had began to call in their enthusiastic reaction. Dewey played it again and again,an now he wanted to interview Elvis on the air".

Not long before he died,Dewey told what happened during that interview.

"Elvis arrived out of breath and Dewey said,"Sit down,I'm gone interview you." And according to Dewey,Elvis said, "Mr.Phillips,I don't know nothing about being interviewed."

"Just don't say nothing dirty,'Dewey said back. "He sat down and I said I'd let him know when we were ready to start,' Dewey recalled. "I had a couple of records cued up,and while they played,we talked. I asked him where he went to school and he said Humes" etc etc Source: "Elvis The Biography" by Jerry Hopkins p.47 & p.48--Jaye9 (talk) 02:28, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm quite happy to lose the "Elton Preston" anecdote; there's already another reference to him having a funny name. I'll remove the Carr & Farren quote. Rikstar (talk) 10:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I've done so, and I've also rewritten this bit using Hopkins as the main source. Rikstar (talk) 11:28, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Looking at this next one reminds me of how difficult it all is when researching on Presley. On the Main Page Titled:"First recording and performances" were it says. "That's All Right" was aired on July 8,1954,by DJ Dewey Phillips".[61]b Source:Carr and Farren,p6

I checked the date out and got two different ones:

10 July 1954: Dewey Phillips plays That's All Right,Mama on WHBQ radio,Memphis Tennessee. Source:www.elvis.com/topic/deweyphillips

Here's what Elaine Dundy had to say: "On Monday night of 5th July,while fooling aroung during a break in the session,Sam's search for his elusive sound finally came to fruition with Elvis singing "That's All Right{Mama)."

"Just two days after,on Wednesday,Sam's old friend and ex-partner Dewey Phillips played "That's All Right{Mama}'on his popular evening WHBQ radio program. Source: "Elvis and Gladys" by Elaine Dundy p.89

I'm no Elvis expert,but I'd go with Elaine Dundy because of her endepth study on Presley alone.--Jaye9 (talk) 14:17, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

So that's July 7? Fine with me. I did check, and July 7 was a Wednesday. I'll change this if no one disagrees. Rikstar (talk) 15:15, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I have updated the sandbox version to included the existing footnotes. Some of these (in red) need reformatting, or removing. The Notes may need amending too. The sandbox article is 100 kilobytes long, the current B-rated article is 142 kilobytes, and contains fewer images. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 20:51, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Made some more changes, generally to shorten it; notable ones are described in history. I'm trying to cut anything, but if it is significant, it can probably go in an existing linked sub article. I know people are reading this, and I am conscious that I don't want to create re-reading work for you all.

I also am not sure where we stand in using this version, even if current editors feel it forms a better article. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 00:34, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Steve in response to your question you asked on the Elvis talk page your wrote: "I asked him where he went to school and he said Humes" etc etc Source: "Elvis The Biography" by Jerry Hopkins p47 & P48. So,did he also say that he asked this question so that people would know Elvis wasn't black?

The next sentence Hopkins writes: "I wanted to get this out ,because a lot of people listening had thought he was colored" Source:"Elvis The Biography" by Jerry Hopkins p48

Hope this will help answer your question.--Jaye9 (talk) 14:30, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Early Peformances, again

Because Presley was assumed to be black, many white disc-jockeys ignored his Sun singles. Somewhat predictably, black disc-jockeys did not want anything to do with any record they knew was made by a white man.[41] Also, to many black adults, it seemed that Presley had undoubtedly "stolen" or at least "derived his style from the Negro rhythm-and-blues performers of the late 1940s",[42] though such criticism ignored Presley's use of "white" musical styles. However, some black entertainers, notably Jackie Wilson, argued: "A lot of people have accused Elvis of stealing the black man’s music, when in fact, almost every black solo entertainer copied his stage mannerisms from Elvis."

As usual someone wrote this in a book. Well, shall we stick to the facts? Blue Moon... and That's Alright did pretty well in the South, even reaching #1 for weeks at a time. Revies of other Sun records proclaimed Elvis as a rising "country" star. So what white djs weren't playing his stuff? And how long did that last? Yes, the Blue Moon Boys had misses at Sun. I was just reading about his first country hit while at Sun. Note however, that only 5 of 16 sides issued by Sun were dervived from R&B sources. That's less than a third! Can we stop this? What good does it do to learn about the facts when they are pushed aside by this constantly repeated refrain? Steve Pastor (talk) 23:52, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Whoa there Steve! If something's wrong, we can change it. I'd rather stick to the facts. But we need the sources you refer to. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 09:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

The Elvis Austrailia site documents the regional hit status of the first release: That's Alright/Blue Moon of Kentucky. That in itself should show the irrevlence of any statement that "many white disc-jockeys ignored his Sun singles", a sweeping overgeneralization. Remember, Sam Phillips had to get in his car and drive around to get people to play this stuff when it first came out. If you need more, I've got it.

"to many black adults, it seemed that Presley had undoubtedly "stolen" or at least "derived his style from the Negro rhythm-and-blues performers of the late 1940s" White people have been playing blues, etc, black "style" since the beginnings of written and recorded blues. Vernon Dalhart was the first country singer to have a nationwide hit in May of 1924 with "Wreck of the Old '97". The flip side of this record was "Lonesome Road Blues", which also became very popular. Many "hillbilly" musicians recorded blues songs throughout the decade, and into the thirties as with Cliff Carlisle. BTW, ever hear of Jonny Ray? [1]

This went on into the forties, too. This early career section is not the place to educate people about the exchanges between "black" and "white" music and styles, so why bring it up when it just perpetuates misinformation?Steve Pastor (talk) 21:25, 9 January 2009 (UTC) :Did we all know that Wynonie Harris (Good Rockin Tonight) cut country singer Hank Penny's "Bloodshot Eyes""?Steve Pastor (talk) 22:57, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I just came across this bit from a Memphis newspaper in 1955. The record was played on Juke Box Jury. "Blue Moon" had been written and first recorded some years earlier by a famous, Grand Ole Opry entertainer, Bill Munroe of Kentucky. Tennessee Ernie Ford, on the Juke Box Jury that night, drawled: "If ole Bill Munroe hears this, he'll just take his li'l ole country band and head back for the hills." Monroe himself, far from being offended, sent Elvis a note of thanks. After Elvis brought it out, six other companies made it with thier stars. Billboard gave Elvis' first record an 85 score, very high, on both sides. Over a 15 week period, only one other record in the same category had an equal rating, and that was by the established star, Webb Pierce.

A year later Sam Phillips still hadn't figured out which was the big side. "That's All Right" was in the R&B idiom of negro field jazz, "Blue Moon" more in the country field, but there was a curious blending of the two different musics in both.

This sandbox version was cut and pasted from the main Presley article. It isn't definitive. The reason the issue of "Elvis stole black music" only got included is because it continues to be an accusation levelled at Presley and some other white performers. An example of this is "He wasn't my king". Guardian Unlimited, which is linked to in the article.

I think these accusations are mean, dishonest and not borne out by the facts. But, just because they are mentioned in the article, it does not mean the article is trying to perpetuate misinformation; if the article is to address controversies that surrounded Presley, like the racist claim of 1957, they will have to be mentioned somehow - or not at all. I am going delete the 'offending' paragraph from the sandbox version for now, see how it all reads, but may have to return to it later. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 12:07, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

At one point the article contained a "Controvesial King" section. That would be an appropriate place to cover this. Meanwhile, take a look at Mystery Train and I Forgot to Remember to Forget. Although everyone writes about "Train", practically salviating over it, it didn't do near as well as "Forgot", which was penned by two country musicians. Again, a distorted picture has been painted. So, again, how about we address this in a special section? But, it should follow, rather than accompany actual facts about his career and life. Thanks. Steve Pastor (talk) 20:04, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

The sandbox version was created by getting rid of special sections. I think it was too easy to add things to special sections, thus bloating the article. If anything important needs to be added, we should be able to incorporate it in the timeline somewhere. Anything too extensive won't look right, given the brief style; I suggest that existing linked articles, like "The Cultural Impact of Elvis Presley", are the place for extended exploration of controversy, etc. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 11:31, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I wrote this in the main Elvis article about the black/white silliness, and it could stand repeating here: About the color of his music, here's some REALLY relevant quotes: "Elvis was an integrator. Elvis was a blessing." - Little Richard. Or "That's my idol, Elvis Presley" - Eddie Murphy. Or "I wasn't just a fan [of Elvis], I was his brother. I love him and hope to see him in heaven. There'll never be another like that soul brother." James Brown. Elvis was color-blind and so were his fellow musicians, as you can see from the quotes (there's tons more). Elvis was trying to sing what Jesus would sing. I think we can let go of the speculation about the color of his music. Bushcutter (talk) 07:48, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Continued editing

I have made some more changes, but nothing drastic. Photos are a not being accepted in it yet, so I've cut out the ones I added from other articles. I will work on this article when I can; I have little interest in the main article as it stands. I am saving this article as it changes, in case it disappears. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 17:58, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Just A Thought

I know we are trying not to bombard this article with too much information and I agree. However,I got to thinking that perhaps alot of people maybe under the impression that Elvis was an overnight success. This was not the case,as Elvis himself mentioned,it took about a year and half before anyone knew who we were. Just thought I'd mention it and see what everyone thinks.--Jaye9 (talk) 07:15, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I think something could be added to that effect. Do you have any sources that refer to this Jaye? Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 11:14, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Please note: I've taken this from a recording and I havn't put it down word for word. But he wanted to give his side of the story on how things really happened early in his career. Becaues alot of things people said had not been accurate. It's also interesting where he mentions about the record he first made,was for his own use. How many times have we heard the story that he recorded this for his mother's birthday. Another myth.

Here's what Presley had to say: "I was driving a truck and studying to be an electrician. I went to a record company during my lunch break,to make a record for my own use and the guy put the record out about a year and half. Overnight, in my home town in Memphis it became pretty big and in certain parts of the country,but nobody really knew who we were. We did little football fields and night clubs,with things crawling around and did everyting we could get,for about a year and a half. Then I met Colonel Sanders,Colonel Parker and they arranged to put me on television. I first did the Tommy Dorsey shows and Steve Allen Show. I did the Ed Sullivan show and things really started to happen for me after that. Source: Elvis viva las vegas (2 Disc)no:88697131292. BMG--Jaye9 (talk) 04:25, 25 January 2009 (UTC)