User talk:Raju Babu/Archives/2024/March

Lebong Pass
Lebong Pass
	Lebong Pass Location in Uttarakhand, India
	Coordinates: 30°19′52″N 80°37′32″E / 30.3311530°N 80.6254792°E

This is an archive of past discussions about User:Raju Babu. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Gratitude

Thankyou so much Mr. Nepaboy for your Outstanding Translation effort!

I very very Grateful.

May you prosper!

(If you want your favorite article(s) to be translated into the Chinese language, then I can help you.)

Yours Sincerely, --Jose77 ०३:२९, १० अगस्त २०१० (UTC)

Could you also help me translate the rest of this article into the Bhojpuri Devanagari script? please.

Your help would be appreciated with full Gratitude.

(ps: I will also try and find some fellow Wikipedians to support your request). --Jose77 ०३:४३, १० अगस्त २०१० (UTC)

Done The favorite article that you requested has been translated and created Here. You are welcome. --Jose77 (talk) 04:41, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Other projects

Please be aware that content such as Articles of Sugauli treaty would go better on our sibling project Wikisource. What you submitted was not an article about the treaty; rather, it is the treaty.

No harm done; this is just so you know what to do next time. DS (talk) 12:08, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Help with Bhojpuri language

Good day! Could you help me and provide translations for the following 100 basic word in Bhojpuri in your native local variety (dialect) (and indicate please precise location like state – district – town/village). If there are synonyms or known dialectal variants provide them with comments if possible. Also please indicate if you know that certain words are borrowing. You can fill in right here or at my page using either IPA transcription or any other spelling you like (just describe your conventions). Thank you in advance! --Koryakov Yuri (talk) 11:20, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

I, me – अमी
thou (you, singular) – तोहोर
we – अमार
Cunt - भोँसडी
this – ईथे
that – काँ
who? – काँव
what? – का
not – ना
all –
many –
one –
two –
big – लौण्डा
long – बडका
small – पिद्दू
woman – मौगी
man (adult male) – मरद
man (human being) –
fish –
bird –
dog – कुतउ
louse – ढील
tree –
seed –
leaf –
root –
bark (of a tree) –
skin –
meat (flesh) –
blood –
bone –
fat – मोटका
egg –
horn –
tail –
feather (of a bird) –
hair –
head –
ear –
eye –
nose –
mouth –
tooth –
tongue –
claw (nail) –
foot –
knee –
hand –
belly –
neck –
breast(s) (of a woman) –
heart –
liver –
drink (verb) –
eat (verb) –
bite (verb) –
see (verb) –
hear (verb) –
know (verb) –
sleep (verb) –
die (verb) –
kill (verb) –
swim (verb) –
fly (verb) –
walk/go (verb) –
come (verb) –
lie (down) (verb) –
sit (verb) –
stand (verb) –
give (verb) –
say (verb) –
sun –
moon –
star –
water –
rain –
stone –
sand –
earth –
cloud –
smoke –
fire –
ash –
burn (trans. verb) –
road (path) –
mountain –
red –
green –
yellow –
white –
black –
night –
warm (hot) –
cold –
full –
new –
good –
round –
dry –
name –

Orphaned non-free image File:British India Map of 1785.pdf

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Orphaned non-free image File:British India Map of 1804.pdf

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Do not try to obfuscate subject matter of articles by creating duplicate pages with misleading titles

Hello Mr. Ganesh Singh Katuwal (aka Nepaboy),

Please do not create new pages with similar-sounding but misleading names and move contents of existing pages just because you do not like the existing titles and want to obfuscate the subject matter by creating duplicate pages with misleading titles. You created a new page "Greater Nepal (Concept)" without any discussion and moved the existing page "Greater Nepal" there. I shall appreciate you do not act arbitrarily and unilaterally like this.

You then created a new page "Unified Nepal" though an article "Unification of Nepal" already exists. The new article "Unified Nepal" is badly written, has numerous language errors and factual errors in addition to verbose and POV content and is entirely redundant. I have redirected it to the existing article "Unification of Nepal".

Rao Ravindra (talk) 17:33, 15 March 2013 (UTC) Ravindra Rao

Hello, You have written "When Nepal attacked on Garhwal, Kumaon, Sikkim, these were not part of India but these were independent Kingdom." Yes, they were kingdoms. Yes, they were independent. But independent of what or whom? And not part of India? Not part of which India? India is an omnibus word that can be described in dozens of ways and can have different meanings for different persons. India generally included all the area up to the peaks of Himalayas in the regions where Ganga and Yamuna rivers originated. Sharda (or Kali or Mahakali) river was always a part of India. India's boundary has varied so much over the ages and with numerous kings that its hundreds of boundaries over the ages cannot be shown in one map. In Maurya era, India included Gandhar (now Kandhar and Herat, Afghanistan). In Moghul and Maratha era, there were kings (Maharajas) and kingdoms (Rajya) in India that were "independent" in their internal affairs but the Moghuls and the Marathas had suzerainty over them.

Therefore an assertion that Garhwal and Kumaon "were not part of India" is invalid. They were independent kingdoms in the omnibus India just as Maharaja Ranjit Singh's was an independent kingdom in Punjab region of India. Would any sane person claim that the independent Sikh kingdom was not in India? It is surrealistic nostalgia to say that Nepal as it exists now has a claim over Garhwal and Kumaon when nascent Nepal kingdom of Prithvi Narayan Shah in 1790s and the following decade occupied them briefly for 10 to 25 years before losing them two centuries ago. Even the ancestors of Prithvi Narayan Shah had moved to Gorkha area from what is now Rajasthan. They were not "original inhabitants" of Gorkha area.

And remember that for long periods (centuries) the Kumaon kingdom included areas east of Sharda or Kali river - areas which are now part of Republic of Nepal. But no one in India raises any claim that these areas should be "returned" by Nepal to India because just a claim would be as ridiculous as the claim by leftist and communist Nepalese over Kumaon and Garhwal is. China is mentoring them to disturb Indo-Nepal relations. Do not fall in China's trap. The King of Nepal signed another treaty in 1860 accepting the revised boundaries after the British returned a part of Terai to him.

Ravindra Rao Rao Ravindra (talk) 15:48, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Replaceable fair use File:British India Map of 1785.pdf

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Administrative divisions of Nepal

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Sagarmatha Highway

I am afraid I have removed most of the article, because it has been directly copied from the two newspaper articles that the article references. You can't directly copy text from unfree sources to Wikipedia, not even with attribution; this constitutes a copyright violation. The exception is when a quotation is needed to demonstrate a point that the article makes; in this case the article must make it clear that the text is a quotation. See the copyright and the fair use policy.

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Ways to improve Chaudandigadhi

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A page you started (Rautamai) has been reviewed!

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Regarding Maze Solution

Dear Kiran Ji, I want to know if the Maze Solution is your company and you are the copyright holder of all the maps uploaded by you?----Raju Babu (talk) 16:02, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

With regards to your message, I want to inform you that Maze Solution is indeed my company and since we couldn't find any map of districts of Nepal showing old and new municipalities we created them for public knowledge and use. Unfortunately some one has marked all of them for copyright violations and deletions. Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kiran215 (talk • contribs) 02:31, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

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WikiProject Bihar invitation

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Indic script

Please do not add any Indic script, to any of our India related articles, as you did at Siwan, Bihar, as this contravenes WP:NOINDICSCRIPT - Thank you - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:37, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Happy Dashain!

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February 2020

Hi, and thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. It appears that you tried to give Kamalbazar Municipality a different title by copying its content and pasting either the same content, or an edited version of it, into another page with a different name. This is known as a "cut-and-paste move", and it is undesirable because it splits the page history, which is legally required for attribution. Instead, the software used by Wikipedia has a feature that allows pages to be moved to a new title together with their edit history.

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Can you help me to move all the pages that includes "Municipality" word after city names? Just need to remove "Municipality" word from the page title. Here is the category: Category:Municipalities of Nepal. Thank you--- 👤Raju💌 04:30, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

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WP:NOTAFORUM

Hi Raju Babu, I am uncomfortable with this post of yours at Talk:Kalapani territory.

It is WP:SOAPBOXing and treating an article's talk page as a WP:FORUM. Can you please remove it and move it to your user space? I will be happy to comment on it, but not at the article talk page.

Pinging RegentsPark for his view. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:53, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree and will remove the post. Raju Babu, your post is not appropriate because it violates WP:FORUM. Could you please restate your concerns in short, actionable posts? Thanks. --regentspark (comment) 14:20, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3 I know but I just wanted to tell you that there are facts that you have not given a space on your article. I also told you before that you have written the whole article in view of your point, so please do some research and give space those facts in your article and remove the usless things from article which is unnecessarily there.--- 👤Raju💌 17:03, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

As I said, you are welcome to put it in your userspace and we can discuss it.

On the article talk page itself, you are always welcome to raise issues with the article content. Unfortunately, we are getting very little information from the Nepalese, only commentaries. It is almost as if Nepal went into hibernation in 1817 and suddenly woke up in 1996. What happened in between? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:00, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

During the time of British rule on subcontinent, most of south asian kingdom had no more knowledge about mapping and sketching maps. Nepal also had no engineers and printing department and knowledge about maps. Britishers had changed their maps time by time but Nepal did not know about that. Nepal has only those maps which were drawn by britishers but signed in mutual agreement. Nepal has a map of Mahakali Zone which was signed between Britishers and Nepal in 1934. This was last map signed in mutual agreement with Britishers. In this map all villages until Limpiyadhura has shown in Mahakali zone and the Kali (Kuti) river is shown as borderline between India and Nepal. Nepal has receiving paper of tax which were paid by people of those villages in 1938 (Nepali date: Asadh 19, 1995), Land tax paid in 1940. Nepal also has Voter name list which were asked for 1980 Nepalese governmental system referendum.

There was no any dispute there until Independence of India. During Independence time of India, there was political issues in Nepal. Nepali Congress Party started revolution of 1951 with help of India and the power of King shifted back to shah king and finally ended the Rana regime. Shah king was restablished by help of Nehru so King always was not in position to go agains of India. Promulgation of constitution in Nepal, 1962 war between India and China, permission to India to deploy Indian army on northern border of Nepal etc. After war Nepal asked to remove army from Northern border of Nepal then India removed all army from Northern border of Nepal but did not removed from Kalapani area saying let the army remain there for few days to keep eye on China but Indian army is not removed from there untill today. During 1996 Nepali people made pressure to remove those army from Kalapani then the issue of dispute came in light and from then discussion is going on till today.

If you want references about what I told here I can provide you but mostly are in Nepali language and the map and voter name list and other proofs are saved in archive with government. One receipt of tax has been made in public which is available with this reference [1]

Nepal had no printing department until 1975 (Nepali year 2032). In 1988 A team of survey department was about to go to the Kalapani area but India made objection and said Kalapani is a disputed area.

In 1961, during Nepal-China border agreement Kalapani area was left so in 1988 Nepal government told to make Lipu-Gad international borderline between India and Nepal for now.

From that time to now many time India and Nepal sitting in meeting but no solution untill today. On 20 May of 2020 Nepal Government finally told to include whole Kalapani area in Nepal when she knew there is construction work is going on in disputed territory. [2]--- 👤Raju💌 21:04, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Frankly, this whole obsession with maps is entirely counter-productive. It doesn't mean a thing. It looks like Buddhi Narayan Shrestha started this whole business. He went and researched the British archives and American archives, but he only copied maps. He didn't read anything! If he did, he hasn't written about it.

Territory doesn't get owned or disowned by virtue of maps. Maps are only a record of what has been decided. They are not decisions in themselves.

So the theory that the British acquired territory just by printing maps is false. There would have been negotiations and decisions made by responsible officials. In the case of "Kalapani territory", I believe Jung Bahadur Rana was responsible for the transfer, which was contemporaneous with the transfer of Naya Muluk. The area to the west of Kalapani was never under the control of Nepal. You are welcome to read the travelogue of Henry Strachey (explorer) that I posted on Talk:Kalapani territory. He travelled to Tibet via Lympiadhura and returned via Lipulekh and included copious detail of everything he encountered along the route. There is not a single mention of Nepal being involved.

As for the evidence available in the Nepal government archives, we can't use it. It has to throw the archives open to disinterested scholars (who could even be Nepalese, but maintaining academic standards) and then we can use their analysis. Note that paying taxes to Nepalese government could have been for the land the people owned on the Nepalese side. (This was one of the arguments advanced for retaining Tinkar Valley within India in 1817.) The Byansis were also paying "taxes" to the Tibetans, but it was apparently in lieu of trading duties. The British were pretty unhappy with the arrangement. But when they tried to change it, it backfired. So they let it continue. So we can't interpret these things. It has to be done by knowledgeable scholars. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:07, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

What is your opinion on it:

"It was britishers who interchanged the names of white Kali (an small stream of water near a temple, which water is not black) and blakish Kuti (real Kali) rivers. This ensured a vast area of land as british territory as Kali river was always accepted as the border.- a good example of British practical diplomacy. They built the above temple (a temple of Goddess Kali) to authenticate the name."

^[1] --- 👤Raju💌 11:34, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Stories like this, explaining how clever the British were in doing this or that, are not at all uncommon in India. It is also no uncommon for travel writers like Harish Kapadia to add them to their narratives in order to juice up what would otherwise be drab geography. If we are going to accuse the British of lying, we need to have reasonable evidence, not rumour.

I have not yet seen anything that gives me confidence that the British messed up. At the same time, I place a lot of weight on the fact this was discussed in 1817 itself. The Nepalese made a claim to Kuthi Yankti and the British presented their argument, which was apparently accepted. To me, that settles the matter. It can be reopened only if the Nepalese are able to explain why the 1817 settlement wasn't good enough. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:05, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

References

^ "High Himalaya, Unknown Valley". Harish Kapadiya. 1993. Retrieved 31 May 2020.

Captain Webb

Ok, so our conversation spurred me into looking more at Webb's information to see if he had lied. There was plenty in the Historical Records of Survey of India volume,^[1] from where the map came:

His [Webb's] main interests lay in fixing the snow range, and exploring the Tibetan border-land. By May 1816 he had surveyed to the sources of the Kali and was working along the north border, trying to negotiate permission to visit Lake Manasarowar (II, 79; III, pl. 6)
I considered that to pass churlishly along the frontier, prying into its passes and reconnoitring, would be more likely to excite...than to allay the jealousy already kindled, and therefore, to induce some friendly intercourse, I sent forward some of the Bhooteea[3] zumeendars to Tuklakot,[4] desiring them to state to the Governor the nature of my...employment, and to express a wish...to be permitted to visit the lake Mansurwur [Manasarowar], ... paying my respects to him personally.

The Chinese Governor, or Deba agreed to a meeting:

May 28th 1816. The snow this morning was eight inches deep upon the ground, nor had the thaw become sufficiently effectual to admit of our proceeding towards Kalapanee till one o'clock... [rides a yak--meets the Deba—permission to visit Manasarowar refused, politely but firmly]

The Viceroy of Gurdon [Kardam?] who had disobeyed this order in favour of Moorcroft and Hearsay [II, 80], had been removed from his situation with disgrace, and summoned to Oochung where, in all probability, further punishment awaited him.

The Chieftain remained with me near five hours; sending for his pipe and large teapot, as seeming to consider me but an indifferent preparer of that beverage.

In a letter of June 7th he reports that he had

visited the source of the river Kalee, and with imminent peril crossed the snowy ridge ... by the pass Lebong.[6] The extreme labor, great difficulty of respiration, experienced in the last undertaking, has occasioned a general sickness in my camp. I hope, however, to get the whole party under shelter tomorrow, and to accelerate their recovery ... I purpose remaining stationary for some time.

Notes:

[1] DDn. 205 (303-8), 10-11-31.

[1] DDn. 150 (53), 8-10-18.

[3] or Tibetan [I, 23, n.5]

[4] 35 m. SW of Lake Manasarowar.

[5] BSC. 14-9-16 (35-7).

[6] Lipu Pass, 17,890 ft.

So the "source of the river Kalee" was past "Kalapanee" at "pass Lebong" (Lipulekh). The place where he met the Chinese Governor is what he marked on his map as "Mandarin's camp" (which later got corrupted to "Mandarim camp"). It wasn't its name, which Strachey mentioned 30 years later. He apparently went up to Lipulekh in one stretch without stopping at the camp, and so got totally exhausted by the time they reached the pass.

So, all rumours of hera pheri are false. We can rest assured. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:42, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

It is also worth noting the date, 7 June 1816. This was a year before the Nepalese government raised a dispute about it. (At that time, the Tinkar Valley was also under British control, perhaps using a liberal interpretation of "River Kalee".) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:14, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

You know where Lebong pass is?

It is between Darma valley (Dhauli river) and Vyas valley (Kuti river) at height of 5500m. He went to source of Kali river (Kuti yangti) passing lebong pass. --- 👤Raju💌 20:01, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

You may be right. Webb didn't know the name "Lipulekh" for some reason. In his letters he called it the "Taklakot pass" and in the map it is marked as the "Pass to Chinese Tartary". So, there is no reason why he would call it "Lebong". But the Survey of India people interpreted it as Lipulekh (footnote [6]). I will have to dig more. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:47, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I was never crazy for History and geography but this issue made me excited to know the matter from past to now but I thought might be everything not available on internet but I should check once then I started to search old british maps and I also searched old names and I found that Limpiyadhura (Lankpya-Dhura) was the source of Kali river and Kali was the real name of the Kuti Yangti. Early time Neo Dhura and Lankpya dhura were the passes from where mostly Bhotiyas used to trade. Very few had known about Lipulek pass. When Britishers knew about Lipulekh pass they started Cartographic propaganda. I found I was correct what I was thinking after reading this article. [3].--- 👤Raju💌 05:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I had seen this paper too. But I had "lost" it in my files before I could take notes on it. I did copy some of its maps though. When I wrote this a couple of days ago, I was looking at the Webb's map copied from here, but didn't remember where it came from. By the way, it is a good idea to write WP:Full citations even during talk discussions so that they will show up searches. Plain url's won't.

As for the Lipulekh pass, it is clearly the easiest and most convenient pass (for access to Taklakot and Kailas-Manasarowar). But apparently the Tibetans didn't like people coming through it. During the Baz Bahadur Chand's rule, he invaded Taklakot and forced the Tibetans to open it for pilgrims. So the Kumaonis have some kind of title to it. But after the Kumaonis went down (through Gorka invasion), Tibetans probably took the control back. That is why the "Mandarin's camp" ended up below the pass, and Strachey had to go out via the Lampiya pass and return through the Lipu pass.

By the way, India is not contesting the fact that the maps between 1819 and 1857 showed Kuthi Yankti as the Kali River.^[2] I will work on a new section on the Source of Kali, where all this stuff can be discussed. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Also, the "Mount Lebon" is marked on Webb's map, though it was removed in the published version of the map. So, yes, cartographic propaganda, it is. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

References

^ Phillimore, R. H., ed. (1954), Historical Records of the Survey of India, 1815–1830 (PDF), Survey of India, pp. 45–46
^ Rakesh Sood, For a reset in India-Nepal relations, The Hindu, 29 May 2020.

1817

The paper you mentioned above

Bhusal, Jagat K. (2020), "Evolution of cartographic aggression by India: A study of Limpiadhura to Lipulek", The Geography Journal of Nepal, 13: 47–68, doi:10.3126/gjn.v13i0.28151

is really poor. It mixes up a lot of stuff, gives fake citations and makes loads of innuendo. There is a later paper co-authored with Dhungel which is more reasonable.

Dhungel, Dwarika; Bhusal, Jagat; Khanal, Narendra (2020), "North-Western Boundary of Nepal", Journal of International Affairs, 3: 1–41, doi:10.3126/joia.v3i1.29077

This says that Chautaria Bum Shah asked in 1817 for a transfer of villages "east of Kali". So, until this point, Tinkar Valley was under British control. (Webb had included it in his survey, but not the areas south of it.) The Governor General decided that Nepal had a right to the lands "east of Kali" and ordered they be transferred. Commissioner Trail then said that Changru and Tinkar were the only villages to the east of Kali that needed to be transferred but their land was generally owned by the 'zamindars' residing to the west of Kali, and forwarded a petition from the zamindars. So, it seems that Traill decided that the Kalapani river was Kali. There is no information as to Webb had any input into this. By 1817, Webb was back in Garhwal, surveying the Gangotri area. And his maps/reports were not submitted to the Survey of India till 1819. Soon afterwards he left India never to return.

So from this point till 1846 the British lived with the inconsistency that their maps said one thing and the border said another. It is unclear whether anybody noticed the inconsistency. In 1846, Strachey travelled in the area, with a map, and he mentioned the inconsistency. After this, the maps seem to have been corrected in line with the actual practice.

So, it seems to me that we are back to square-A. The decisions were made based on what was considered (or claimed) to be the local nomenclature. Webb's maps had no impact on them. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:22, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Lol. When there was rule of Gorkha in Kumaon. The villages of Tinkar and Chhangru were the part of Doti Pargana as the geographical condition of land separates it from Byas Parganah and Byas Pargana was divided by Kali so called Kuti river. The Zamindar of eastern villages was residing another side of river so he never wanted to be lost his land across the river. This is why Bum Shah requested to comissioner to surrender the half of Byas pargana to Nepal. That time there was no issue of river that which is original Kali, if there could, Zamindar had mentioned in his letter when he wrote a letter to concerned person.

The Kali temple is built later to give name to a small stream of water which is sourcing there. The area where the temple was/is situated, there are no residencies so why do soneone go to make a small temple there? Although It can be tested archeologically when the temple was buit there.

The area was being ruled by Gorkhas so Gorkhas knows better which is Kali river and what is the reality of Temple. How did Gorkhas not know if Lipu Gad was the real Kali, they were ruler there just before 1816? Who will decide which is original kali who just came after 1816?

If they knew that Lipu Gad is original Kali in 1845, why they did not overtook the area? Evidences proves Nepalese ruled there untill 1905. Why did they not write a latter to Government of Nepal to handover the area? How independent India let Nepalese go the area to take a pole in 1961?

In 1962, when India lost a war with China losing a big chunk of land to them, they captured an small portion of Nepal to give satisfaction to their own and this is the truth.--- 👤Raju💌 06:45, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

No Raju Babu, I don't think that's how it is. Byas (Beans) pargannah from Kumaon at the time would be Beans/Kuthi valley in Pithoragarh together with the Byash/Byans VDC which currently forms part of Byans Rural Municipality. This is the area where Byangsi language is spoken and includes the villages of Budhi, Garbyang, Gunji, Nabi, Napalchchu, Rongkong, Kuti, Chhangru and Tinkar.

Moving within this area would be much more simpler than coming into this area from outside. From India, you may be able to take some route through the passes between Darma Valley and Beans valley, like Lebong Pass / Sin La or the Nama Pass. However, in Nepal there is an amphitheater of peaks along the watershed boundary of Api Khola, Nampa Khola and Tinkar Khola, defining the Byangsi speaking area. This line of peaks makes it nigh on impractical to enter this area any other way except going upstream along the Kali river valley. See this for reference.

Also, we have the following passages from Henry Strachey, where he refers to the Tinkar valley not being in the British territory unlike the rest of the Byans district/pargannah. He makes it clear that the neighbouring Marma valley was in the Doti pargannah/district.

Changrew and Tinkar belong geographically to Byáns, and are inhabited by Bhotias, the same in every respect as the other Byánsis, and sharing in the traffic with Pruang by the Lípu Pass. It was a mistake leaving this little valley to the Gorkhas, when the rest of the district was brought under the British rule; the true frontier line was the range of snowy mountains on the East, Tinkar, Nampa and Ápi, on the other side of which lies the district of Márma, the northernmost division of Dóti, and the inhabitants of which, like those of Dúng, next south, are Khasia and not Bhótia. ^[1]

This is where he refers as to why Tinkar valley was so remote.

The district of Márma lies to the south (by east) of Byáns, as Dúng does from Chaudáns. There was formerly a pass from the top of Márma valley into the vallley of Tinkar by the Nampa Dhúra and Gár ; but this has become impracticable, and the Márma people going to Pruang (with which they have some little traffic) have now come to round through Dúng and Chaudáns, for they are also snowed up on the north and north-east, having no practicable passes that way into Pruang. ^[2]

-- Ashinpt (talk) 21:03, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Ashinpt. I hope Raju Babu wouldn't mind your intervention. But I have highlighted the "mistake" part in your Strachey quote. I believe that "mistake" is the cause of all these disputes now. Similar mistakes in Kashmir/Ladakh have also given rise to the present day Sino-Indian troubles. Barring a few exceptions, the British generally took care of their Imperial interests and didn't worry much about how the decisions affected the people. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:13, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

References

^ Strachey, Lieut. H. (September 1848), James Prinsep (ed.), "Narration of a Journey to Cho Lagan, (Rakas Tal), Cho Mapan (Manasarowar), and the valley of Pruang in Gnari, Hundes, in September and October 1846", Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal, 17, Bapt. Miss. Press: 112–113
^ Strachey, Lieut. H. (September 1848), James Prinsep (ed.), "Narration of a Journey to Cho Lagan, (Rakas Tal), Cho Mapan (Manasarowar), and the valley of Pruang in Gnari, Hundes, in September and October 1846", Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal, 17, Bapt. Miss. Press: 113

1820 & 1842

Kautilya3, to make you satisfied that Kuti was the real Kali river, I have found these two links. If you will even not accept it, I will know that you don't want to understand it.

A geographical, statistical, and historical description of Hindostan and the adjacent countries, Volume 2 was a journal published in 1820 by Walter Hamilton. He writes describing about the Kingdom of Nepal: Nepal is separated from Tibet by Himalayas in the north; on the south it is bounded by the british territories in the provinces of Delhi, Oudh, Bihar and Bengal with the exception of about 60 miles belonging to the Nawab of Oudh which intervene; in the east Nepal territories are separated those of the british by the mechi river from whence to the Himalaya mountains they are bounded by the principality Sikkim, which extends north to the chinese frontier; to the west limits are accurately defined by the course of the Cali (The western branch of gogra), beyond which is the british district of Kumaun^[1]

The encyclopedia Britannica or Dictionary of arts, Sciences and general literature: Volume 16. January 1, 1842 by Adam and charles black ^[2] Cali (The western branch of gogra), beyond which is the british district of Kumaun.--- 👤Raju💌 13:58, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Don't be silly. "Gogra", which the Indians spell as Ghaghra is the Indian name of Karnali. This is saying that Kali is its "western branch" of that river. Many contemporary sources of that time point out that Kali was also called Ghaghra/Gogra, despite being only one branch of it. This has nothing to do with Kuthi Yankti. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:26, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

And the map above just a copy of Webb's map made by Kumaon's assistant commissioner. It doesn't have any borders marked because Webb's map didn't have it either. Surveyors generally don't invent their own borders. They only mark agreed borders, if they know them. When Webb did his survey, the border was still under discussion. The border was finally drawn on a scale map by Henry Strachey in 1846/1849. That map is available on pahar.in. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:31, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry I misunderstood. I thought West Gogra is West Kali.

If the drawing finally drawn in 1846/1849, why do again the drawing changed later until 1924? --- 👤Raju💌 15:27, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are asking. This copy was made for J. H. Batten, the Asst. Commissioner of Kumaon. He seems to have ordered it in 1846 and it got made on 13 June 1849. All copies had to be made by hand. There were no photocopiers in the 19th century.

Henry Strachey's travel report was published in 1848. So the Surveyor's office knew that the name of Kali for Kuthi Yanki was "practically wrong". So they labelled it "West Kalee". I have no idea where the name "Sama" comes from. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:46, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Why did the British change the border?

Re-reading your message, I understood what you were asking. I can only speculate because I haven't seen anything written about it. But the clues are present in various places.

Until Henry Strachey's trip, the Lipulekh pass wasn't used because the Tibetans didn't allow people through it. Neither was there any Kalapani village. There was no Nepali presence or administration there either. The Nepalese made an attempt in 1817 to get the Kuthi valley but the British rejected it. The Bhotiyas might have used the Lipu pass for their trade but the Byansis really preferred the Lampiya pass which was closer to their villages. So the Lipu pass might have been used by the Byansis of Tinkar and the Chaudansis.
After Strachey's trip, some interest might have developed in opening up the Lipu pass. Perhaps some pilgrims to Kailas-Manasarovar started going by this route. (Strachey himself mentions two people, Hindu sanyasis, who attempted to go. The Tibetans allowed one of them but not the other.) So if the British managed to get the pass opened, the pilgrimage traffic would have started pretty soon. Along with the pilgrimage traffic, a village would have grown up at Kalapani because it is a convenient stopping place.
By 1855, when Jang Bahadur Rana got the power in Nepal, he developed good relations with the British and made another attempt to get the Kuthi valley. The 1855 map that Buddhi Narayan Shrestha copied from the British Library, which says "compiled by Survey of India", wasn't prepared by Survey of India. It isn't a suvey map in the first place, and, secondly, why would Survey of India prepare a map of "Nipal and countries adjoining"? It was either prepared by Rana or the British Resident or both of them jointly, in order to get some idea of Nepal's territories. They could have borrowed draughtsmen from the Survey of India or hired some free-lancers. We have been shown only one section of the whole map, the part that adjoins Kumaon. But the rest of it would have also been drawn.
The important point is that this map shows a border. It in fact shows two border lines, one on the watershed to the south of Kuthi Yankti, and a second to the south of Darma Yankti (or Dhauli). I have no idea how Shrestha could have missed them. He probably knows them but he doesn't care to explain them. Shrestha also found a note from Rana which says, among others, that such a border would be agreeable to Nepal. The second important point is that the proposed border was along a watershed, not the river itself. By 1850s the borders of Kashmir and Ladakh were defined, and there was consensus that borders should be on watersheds. What happened to Rana's demand? The British probably put it on ice.
Next the Indian Rebellion happened in 1857. Rana allied with the British and helped them suppress the rebellion in Lucknow. The British had to show their gratitude. But, instead of giving him the Kuthi valley, they gave him the western Tarai. They probably found administering the Malaria-infested jungles a pain but it was a good deal for Rana and a good deal for Nepal, because the majority of Nepal's income came from the Tarai. A new treaty was signed. If they had their wits right, the British should have put Kalapani in the treaty, but either the idea didn't occur to them yet or they thought it didn't need to be mentioned in a treaty. Since Rana pushed them to the idea of the watershed, they decided they would use the watershed of the Kalapani river on the east. In their view, it didn't violate the 1816 treaty, because the Kali River formed only after Kalapani. Above it, there were only headwaters. The argument probably originated with the Almora district officials, but it was accepted by the Survey of India around 1865 and it has been put into the maps since then.
But all this fiddling with the maps didn't make any difference on the ground. On the ground, the Kalapani area and the Lipulekh pass were under the British administration ever since 1815. The change of border that occurred in 1865 is for unpopulated area. So Nepal didn't lose anything nor gain anything.
The real loss happened only after 1997, when the Lipulekh pass got reopened. Henry Strachey makes a very subtle and important point, which was told to him by a "Tinker" (I presume a Tinkar resident). There aren't enough people in the Tinkar Valley to beat down the snow along the route to the Tinkar Pass. When Lipulekh was closed, all the Bhotiyas of the region used the Tinkar pass, and so the problem would have been solved. After Lipulekh got opened, the Indian Bhotiyas use the Lipulekh pass and nobody goes to the Tinkar Pass. Moreover, because of all the politicking and the tensions, the Indian government won't allow the Nepalese Bhotiyas to go to Kalapani/Lipulekh. The more noise Nepal makes, the more the Tinkar people will suffer.

The voices against Kalapani border issue are being raised in Kathmandu and media only. As soon as media broadcasts and publishes news about the border issue, the locals of Tinkar and Changru face a lot of difficulties from Indian side.^[3]

So the right thing for the Nepalese to do to help the Tinkar people is to make peace. I have no hopes that they will do so however. Nationalism is a drug. Once you taste it, you only want more and more of it. You will never let go. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:34, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

The same thing you are doing. Nationalism is in your mind this is why you made so long speech. If Nepal says she has proofs of cencus 1961 of Kalapani area. Land taxes received by villages of that area. The approve map of that area between British & Nepal then why Govt. of India ignores and not come to talk on table, when Govt. of India talking with China on border issue. Because India has no proof to make a claim on the land. India govt. is saying talk will be proceed after end of Corona time.

https://kathmandupost.com/politics/2019/12/05/no-progress-on-initiating-talks-with-india-on-kalapani-issue
https://m.thewire.in/article/diplomacy/india-nepal-kalapani-dispute-foreign-minister.
People of Nabhi and Gunji used to pay their tax visiting darchula untill Bikram samvat 2035 (Gregorian date 1978)

https://nagariknews.nagariknetwork.com/politics/224271-1590805208.html India should talk on this matter and should make a solution. That land is not so important for Nepal, Nepal can officially handover to India but there should be start of talk.--- 👤Raju💌 07:33, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't giving a "speech". I was answering a query you asked. Perhaps it was just a rhetorical question and you weren't expecting an answer. In that case, I won't bother writing here. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:28, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

References

^ "The Kingdom of Nepual". 1820.
^ "The encyclopedia Britannica or Dictionary of arts, Sciences and general literature: Volume 16". 1842.
^ Gokarna Dayal, I Used To Patrol With Arms In Kalapani 48 Years Ago: Nepal Police ASI, The Rising Nepal, 12 May 2020.

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DYK for National Paddy Day

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Mustang District

Thanks for the map transfer. Came here to ask if you know of any health data on the district that I can access. Is there any? Aditya^{(✉ • ⚒)} 12:20, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

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Map

Now done (see here), please tell me how you want it changed. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 15:08, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

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March 2022

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to add unsourced or poorly sourced content, as you did at Birgunj, you may be blocked from editing.
You have been on Wikipedia long enough to know you should NOT be making unsourced changes to statistics - not just at Birgunj, but at several other articles - Arjayay (talk) 12:04, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Check this page for the sources List of cities in Nepal. I am not editing anything without a source and you had to ask me sources before revert any article. I am editing with mobile so doing things one after one. Can you paste those sources there with reverted lines? One source is here but in Nepali language ^[1]

References

^ "राष्ट्रिय जनगणना २०७८ प्रारम्भिक नतिजा". www.cbs.gov.np. Central Bureau of Statics, Nepal. January 2022. Retrieved 26 January 2022.

Thanks 👤Raju💌 14:07, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

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[1] "High Himalaya, Unknown Valley". Harish Kapadiya. 1993. Retrieved 31 May 2020.

[2] Phillimore, R. H., ed. (1954), Historical Records of the Survey of India, 1815–1830 (PDF), Survey of India, pp. 45–46

[3] Rakesh Sood, For a reset in India-Nepal relations, The Hindu, 29 May 2020.

[4] Strachey, Lieut. H. (September 1848), James Prinsep (ed.), "Narration of a Journey to Cho Lagan, (Rakas Tal), Cho Mapan (Manasarowar), and the valley of Pruang in Gnari, Hundes, in September and October 1846", Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal, 17, Bapt. Miss. Press: 112–113

[5] Strachey, Lieut. H. (September 1848), James Prinsep (ed.), "Narration of a Journey to Cho Lagan, (Rakas Tal), Cho Mapan (Manasarowar), and the valley of Pruang in Gnari, Hundes, in September and October 1846", Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal, 17, Bapt. Miss. Press: 113

[6] "The Kingdom of Nepual". 1820.

[7] "The encyclopedia Britannica or Dictionary of arts, Sciences and general literature: Volume 16". 1842.

[8] Gokarna Dayal, I Used To Patrol With Arms In Kalapani 48 Years Ago: Nepal Police ASI, The Rising Nepal, 12 May 2020.

[9] "राष्ट्रिय जनगणना २०७८ प्रारम्भिक नतिजा". www.cbs.gov.np. Central Bureau of Statics, Nepal. January 2022. Retrieved 26 January 2022.

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