User talk:Phil wink/Translation workshop

Welcome, again

@Anagram16: So here's my proposal: I've created this new user page User:Phil wink/Translation workshop and made a "form" that's mostly filled out, so you can see how I imagine it. Each section helps define what the result should look like. I thought I'd start with (as far as I can tell) a hard one.

Text and translation

The text is whatever we decide to work on. This is where we'll develop the finished translation, which will be primarily my responsibility, but of course you should contribute as you see fit. Whenever we both agree that the translation is ready (with Approved -- you'll see this when you edit the page), it can be pasted into the main article.

Literal translation

This will be your responsibility (what you see is just Google -- terrible, I trust -- and I've copied it above, too). Keep each line intact as much as possible. Feel free to include explanatory notes in [brackets]. Of course this does not need to be exquisite English, just clear.

Target article

Self-explanatory.

Target prosody

Here you and I can note which specific features we definitely want to reflect. If the target article were a metrical line (for example, Czech alexandrine), then the target prosody might be more detailed, and you might have to provide me with a full scansion of every line to be translated, since I couldn't be trusted to guess the stress patterns. But for an article like Spenserian stanza I think that level of exactitude is pointless. As a side note, my sense is that generally Wikipedians do not like any art being applied to in-house translations. They prefer a literal translation and nothing else. So in my view, the kind of work I have in mind will only be appropriate in contexts where some aspect of the form is under discussion in the article, so a formal paraphrase (as I call it) will be germane.

Target tone

This too will be your responsibility. Best just to pick a few words: grand or colloquial, harsh or smooth, mournful or joyful, ironic or sincere. That sort of thing. Things like plays on words or archaic (or other specialized) language could be noted, too.

Discussion

All the stuff above should not be signed with ~~~~. It'll just get too messy -- we need to treat it like an article, just editing over each other's stuff as necessary. Here, in the "discussion" section, we can carry on signed conversation as needed. However,we could worry over this endlessly, so I'd mostly like to rely on brief notes under the topics above. General discussions about translation or the process or what to do next can occur here on the Talk page, but anything related to a specific poem should occur on the User page under the appropriate heading.

Possibly this is more than you bargained for, so I don't blame you if you choose to walk away. But I think it will be interesting for us, and valuable for Wikipedia, so I hope you'll give it a try. Thanks. Phil wink (talk) 03:12, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Phil wink

I didn't expect, I would work for English Wikipedia so long, but now I want to do it longer. I didn't expect, I would translate anything into English, either, but I can try. I agree that Google translator is not much useful for poetry. Computers can launch rockets to the Moon, but still have problems with a single strophe. This is my attempt to put Vrchlický's poem into English.

Chaos! Chaos! Who can recognise all these elements,

That lie here in colourless mixture,

Where does the base of Mother Earth flow,

Where is the stream of lava and where are rocks climbing to the moon,

Where are corpuscules of light that make tail of a comet up?

Chaos! Chaos! Only (visible) darkness everywhere,

Giant worlds still sleeping in the depths,

Where is the axle, the Earth is placed on,

Where is eternal fire, the planet keeps inside?

If You think that it is good and can be a starting point for further work, let us place it on the Users page. I think it has both arms and legs (its a Polish expression for something complete). I noticed that for Google translator the word "měsíc" was a problem. It has two meanings: one is "month", the other "the moon". Perhaps so it was long ago in English - compare the word "honeymoon". The next problem was "vlasatice". It is a "comet". Please, enter the article "comet" at English Wikipedia and then go to Czech Wikipedia. Tha word "vlas" means "hair", so "vlasatice" is something with long hair.

Do You want to make an English Spenserian stanza in translation? I am afraid, it would be extremely difficult to preserve ababbcbcc rhyme scheme. I have seen Spenserian stanzas translated into four-rhyme strophes (something like this: ababcdcdd).

I think, making an unrhymed strophe will be good, but of course we can aim at rhymed stanza, and it will be better. I think the most important thing in translation is meaning, next is metre (if lines are equal in the original, they should be equal in translation) and rhyme scheme is less important. If the original text is written in iambic pentameter, you can translate in iambic pentameter, alexandrine or even anapestic tetrameter, but the pattern should be repeated (in eight lines, the last line is another thing). I don't like much putting regular verse into free verse. Regular verse should remain regular verse, but can be changed into the form most common in a national literature, for example Greek hexameter can become English blank verse or Italian ottava rima (the Italian enjoy putting everything in the stanza)

I agree that we should not put our signatures everywhere. The only important thing is the final effect, not the author. (Anagram16 (talk) 22:44, 15 August 2016 (UTC))

I'm very pleased that you like it here. Your translation is of course way way better than the Google translation (for which "Chaos! Chaos!" is indeed a good description). I agree it has arms and legs... let's see if we can give it ears. I think that our ideas about verse translation in general are mostly compatible. However, while verse has many different functions in real life, on Wikipedia its primary function is to illustrate. So I believe the priorities for translation will be a little different in each article. That is, why is the verse there? what is it illustrating? This is why -- in articles about form -- I'm willing to bend the meaning a little to illustrate the form. This is also why I call these formal paraphrases rather than translations, just so reader expectations can be set. So yes, my goal is to produce a totally correct Spenserian stanza. This might not be the right goal for articles such as Jaroslav Vrchlický or Czech literature, but I think it is the right goal for Spenserian stanza. I'll start working on the formal paraphrase, and we'll see what happens... I did say I was starting with a hard one! Phil wink (talk) 02:10, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Please work slowly for a good effect. The metre of the poem is iambic pentameter and alexandrine in the last line.

SsSsSSsssSs

sSsssSsSsss

sSsSsSsSsSs

sSsSsSsSsss

sSsSsSsSsss

SsSssSsSsSs

SssSsSsssSs

sSssSssSsSs

sSsSsSsSsSsSs

There are weak endings (lines 4-5) but they are normal in Czech versification. Rhymes are feminine. In Czech endings Ss or Ssss are feminine and S or Sss masculine. Ss can rhyme with Ssss and S with Sss. Usually rhyme is one and a half syllable long, it can be only half a syllable long when at least one word is a monosyllabe. Good luck in work. (Anagram16 (talk) 08:11, 16 August 2016 (UTC))

For a formal paraphrase like the Mácha lines in Czech alexandrine I felt it was very important to duplicate the stress profiles of each line exactly, because that was what was being illustrated. But in this case, I only intend to suggest the original's meter by using iambic pentameter generally. Similarly, I won't insist upon feminine rhymes. If you disagree, please feel free to argue for greater exactitude, but I fear that level might break me! Phil wink (talk) 01:00, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Phil, I didn't mean, You should use feminine rhymes in Your translation, it was just an observation of the fact. You know (better than I) that feminine rhymes are not good for English verse. Outside English world Edgar Allan Poe's "The Raven" is regarded as a materpiece, but perhaps no English poet really wants to write in such a manner. Of course, some poets use such rhymes in translation. Emma Lazarus used them in translation of Heinrich Heine's poems (see full text at Gutenberg.org). Vrchlicky's poem in feminine rhymes could be something like nursery rhymes or nonsense songs, and one of Your rules for translation is to preserve original style. Czech poets usually mix feminine and masculine rhymes in their works. It is the influence of Italian verse to use only feminine endings in loger stanzas, especially in ottava rima. This practice is sometimes expanded to rhyme royal and Spenserian stanza. It think, general rule in translating verse is: Don't try to make a perfect translation, because if you try, the effect will not be good, but if you try to make (only) good translation, it may happen to be a perfect one. So please make a standard English Spenserian stanza with one syllable rhymes. There is no reason to imitate Czech rhythms here. In Polish literature feminine rhymes are normal and now no one tries to translate English masculine rhymes into Polish masculine rhymes. This way it was done one hundred years ago and those translations are regarded as the worst and no longer read. For example, Jan Kasprowicz translated Robert Browning's Meeting at night (in Polish Spotkanie w nocy) with masculine rhymes only.

Szara głąb morza, długi, ciemny ląd:

Ogromny, żółty półksiężyca róg;

Nagły, syczący, nieprzytomny tan

Zbudzonych ze snu kędzierzawych pian -

Lotne me czółno szybki toczy łuk,

W piasku wilgotnym zgasł już jego prąd.

Potem ćwierć mili jeszcze brzegiem, wzdłuż:

Trzy jeszcze pola pod najbliższy dach;

Potem w okienko, stuk, stuk, ostry trzask

I niebieskawy wraz siarczyka blask,

Głos, który radość tłumi tłumiła i strach -

I dwa wzajemnie biją serca już...

(Anagram16 (talk) 12:42, 17 August 2016 (UTC))

To be fair, even translating Browning into English can be tricky sometimes ;-) Phil wink (talk) 14:07, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Phil, I read Your translation (many times) and now I am impressed. I am not English and cannot judge the text as a native speaker, but I think it will be useful for anybody in the world. Now I understand why English Wikipedia is the best in the world. The people there can work. I always thought France a country of best literature and theory of literature, too, but articles about poetry at French Wikipedia are (still) not good – usually two sentences without any sources and quotations. Let us hope our French friends follow English version and expand their articles. You promised to make a Spenserian stanza and you made one. I should have begun with this:

There are two sources of the text:

1) Czech Wikisource (Wikizdroje)

2) Better source: [Jaroslav Vrchlický:] Duch a svět. Básně Jaroslava Vrchlického [The Spirit and the World. Poems by Jaroslav Vrchlický], (1878). Třetí, nezměněné vydání [Third Edition, Not Changed], V Praze [In Prague], Tiskem a nákladem J. Otty [Printed and Published by J. Otta], page 15. Available at Kramerius. National Library of Czech Republic. http://kramerius.nkp.cz/kramerius/MShowMonograph.do?id=20820&author=Vrchlick%C3%BD_Jaroslav

I recommend using the second source at User’s page. „The Spirit and the World” is regarded as the most important book (or at least one of the most important) books by Vrchlický.

In Polish for criticism we have expression „szukać dziury w całym” („To seek a hole in the whole” – it sounds well in English). I sought and didn’t find. The metre (pentameter or alexandrine) is right, the rhyme pattern is right. The rhyme elements : continents is very good (very Czech one with its Sss pattern). I didn’t know the word „alp” (only the Alps). I think you managed to achieve high tone which Vrchlický surely aimed at. He is almost always „Parnassian”. So „target prosody” and „target tone” are well done. It seems to me that Your translation can be placed alongside the original Vrchlický’s text. We talk about alexandrine. I watched also Your „Alexandrine genus”, especially new sections on Dutch and German metres. If need be I can find examples of strictly iambic Polish alexandrine lines (very artificial and never popular): sSsSsS||sSsSsSs, but it is of course a topic for discussion at Alexandrine genus talk page. Perhaps there will be a section about Russian alexandrine. I know only one example from Alexander Pushkin’s poetry. Perhaps You know Russian poetry much better than I. (Anagram16 (talk) 22:01, 17 August 2016 (UTC))

I hope one day we will make another translation. Another thing. This poetical translation if fully Yours, so feel free to use it. I made only a "strophe in prose". (Anagram16 (talk) 22:08, 17 August 2016 (UTC))

You're very kind. Thank you. I think I'll sit on it for a day or two... "see how it reads sober" as my friend likes to say... and I'm still weighing "pillars" versus "Gaia". Did you have an opinion on that? Yes, happy to try translation again. I was going to suggest a passage from "Edison", but it looks like there would be copyright problems that I wouldn't want to deal with. Let me know if something turns you on.
I do plan on adding a little more to the "alexandrine genus" article -- I think I can squeeze a few sentences about Slavic practice from Gasparov. But I want very few text examples in it (I may even remove the Dutch example) to maintain its character as an overview. And of course I will add paragraphs on Polish and Czech, with links. Phil wink (talk) 23:58, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

I think, the "pillars" are good. Nezval's Edison was translated, so we can make links to it. It is better to avoid copyright problems. There are so many earlier works to quote and translate, we don't need to risk such problems. You are right, "alexandrine genus" should be concise. Long quotations may be inserted into other "alexandrine" articles. Now You can sleep on Your translation and look at it once again in the morning. You translate sophisticated verse very well, but I wonder, if You can translate "badly" too. I mean translating a primitive text in such a way that it would sound "primitively", for example not as an Edmund Spenser's work but as a Thomas Wyatt's poem. There are poems that should not be made perfect in translation. (Anagram16 (talk) 00:37, 18 August 2016 (UTC))

Thanks again. In my opinion, I've written some pretty good (intentionally) metrically awkward lines in my day. Probably my difficulty is to step away from the gilded, clever, or otherwise mannered, and to write something that sounds simple and natural -- it's often easier for me to serve up a bowl of heady wine than a clear glass of cold water. Phil wink (talk) 02:55, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

If I wanted to write a bad verse in Polish, I would not keep the number of syllables and the place of caesura. Mixing (for example) patterns 13(7+6) and 13(6+7) in one poem is strictly prohibited. Of course, some great poets do it sometimes, but very rarely. Bad rhymes could be such, that are composed of one masculine word and another feminine (as in English going and thing. Only consonantal rhymes are very awkward, too (like fist and rust). In Poland we have expression Częstochowa rhymes. Such too often repeated rhymes occurred in books of prayer, Częstochowa being a famous place of pilgrimages, like Spanish Santiago de Compostella or Chaucer's Canterbury. English people were lucky, Chaucer's rhymes were really good (in his times of course). Bad rhymes are for example blizna (a scar) and ojczyzna (mother-country) or kochać (to love) and szlochać (to weep). (Anagram16 (talk) 22:17, 18 August 2016 (UTC))

Phil, the strophe, You translated, is the first one, so lines are 1-9. The whole poem consists of six Spenserian stanzas (all are composed according to the scheme ababbcbcc). At the Wikizdroje (Wikisource) our Czech friends lost two lines in the second strophe. At Kramerius (Czech National Library) all is correct. The best way to enter the e-book is to make a PDF file (at the left). The file can be up to twenty pages long. The path to Vrchlický's book is Kramerius (main page), Monographs, Alphabet of monograph autors, letter V, Vrchlický Jaroslav, Duch a svět (all navigation is in English). The poem is included into the first part of the book, named Ohlasy pravěku that is Echoes od prehistory. It was the first thing, and now the second. I think Your translation is so good that it should be used several times at Wikipedia. I don't knowe where, but - for example - in articles like "Creation of the world in European literature" or "Poets of the nineteenth century". Please think about it. Of course it can be inserted into article about iambic pentameter or alexandrine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anagram16 (talk • contribs) 22:38, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm not going to lie: I think it's good too. Unfortunately its quality is not very germane for its use in other articles. Quotes of poetic texts should illustrate the article, not promote what we like. If the original is considered useful in other articles, then it should be included there -- and given that there is now a perfectly serviceable English translation available, it would be silly not to include both together. Certainly, I could see them appearing in Jaroslav Vrchlický. But now the translation (like all other edits) belongs to Wikipedia and by extension to the world, so you (or anyone else who finds another use for it) should feel free to recycle it as appropriate. But if you're hungry for more, maybe you and I should get together (off-wiki), finish the job, and submit all 6 stanzas to a poetry magazine. Phil wink (talk) 07:15, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

I looked into Spenserian stanza and Your translation fits the article very well. I am worried about someting else. Among the poems written in Spenserian stanza there is The Forest Sanctuary by Felicia Hemans. I found the poem on-line and noticed it is not a Spenserian stanza but an original (four rhyme, not three rhyme) strophe ababccbdd. Perhaps it is even better for Felicia Hemans (may be the invetor of the form), but in this place it is a mistake. Perhaps the best solution is not to cast The Forest Sanctuary out, but to place it at the end of the article, as an inspiration from Spenser. (Anagram16 (talk) 00:12, 20 August 2016 (UTC))

Good catch. Fixed. Phil wink (talk) 07:15, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. Somebody should make an article about The Forest Sanctuary, too. (Anagram16 (talk) 08:36, 20 August 2016 (UTC))

Don't miss my response to your other note, just above. Phil wink (talk) 15:13, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Phil, I think, all, we do, is promoting what we like. I could write articles about „Bulgarian politicians” or „Chinese erotic painting”, but I prefer metres and stanzas (in any literatures). I am hungry for more and I am going to do more. Summer is coming to the end, but I intend to find some free time for English Wikipedia. Of course, we can translate whole poems. I mean short ones and perhaps not so complicated in the form, may be epigrams. First they should be carefully chosen (it’s my job). I suppose the translations would be made for certain articles, in other words, we translate what is needed, not what we like. You may disagree, but I think that articles about single poems should be written, even about very short ones. Odi et amo by Catullus is only two lines long but is one of the most important Latin poems. The importance of a poem depends not on its length. It is a greater art to write a short epic poem and make it seem much longer. Mickiewicz’s „Reduta Ordona” (Ordon’s Redoubt) – mentioned several times in Wikipedia – is not long, but stands for a national epic. It is as popular as The Charge of the Light Brigade and more serious. It is a dramatic monologue spoken by an adjutant. The poem describes the battle of Warsaw in 1831 during the November Uprising. Ordon was the commander of a small fort placed in front of the main line of defense. According to Mickiewicz, when the fortress was seized by tsar’s soldiers, he put fire to the gunpowder and fell like a hero. In reality he lived much longer and after many years was introduced to Mickiewicz. The story is a Polish national myth that resembles the battle at Thermopylae. Let us return to the Spenserian stanza. I am a little afraid of translating such difficult forms. Perhaps the work would be hard and long. I would rather translate a one thousand line poem in blank verse than a French ballad. But a translator cannot be a coward. The world is open to the courageous. I don’t know a single strophe poem in Spenserian stanza, but I read some that are one or two ottava rima long (strambotto). These would be the best ones for translating. I mean, of course, only not copyrighted works by authors, who died before 1945. Adam Asnyk or Jaroslav Vrchlický would be good. If You want to translate something, I can help you. As far as I know in English there is no word for verse translating, in some Slavic languages there are. For example in Czech the word is přebásnit, in Slovak prebásnit, in Slovenian prepesniti. I will keep searching for already existing translations in the Internet, too. (Anagram16 (talk) 22:00, 20 August 2016 (UTC))

Uwielbienie

I write about two things. The first one is, thanks for Richard Francis Burton's translation in Ottava rima. I was glad, when I found any English version, but Your quote is far better. The second thing is a poem that may be translated. It is a short thing by Adam Asnyk, named Uwielbienie (Adoration).

Umarły jeszcze będę wielbić ciebie!
I nie zapomnę, pod ziemią, czy w niebie,
O twej jasności;
Boś ty mi była, nie próżnem marzeniem,
Nie bańką zmysłów tęczowej nicości,
Lecz byłaś ducha ożywczem pragnieniem
Wiecznej miłości!

Nie otoczyłaś mnie pieszczotą senną,
Ani też falą spłynęłaś płomienną
Na pierś stęsknioną;
Nie wprowadziłaś mnie na róż posłanie,
Gdzie tylko ciała w upojeniu toną:
Lecz mi piękności dałaś pożądanie, —
Moc nieskończoną.

It is composed of two seven-line stanzas, rhymed aabcbcb. The structure of the strophe (11/11/5/11/11/11/5) is derived form the Sapphic stanza (11/11/11/5). It is typical for Polish poetry to use hendecasyllables together with pentasyllables in different combinations, (which can be a topic for a ten page article), for example 11a/11b/11a/5b/11c/11c (Słowacki stanza) which resembles a little Burns stanza. This is my attempt to express the meaning of the poem in English.

Although dead, I will still adore you!
And I will never forget, under the ground or in heaven,
About Your light.
For me you were not a vain dream,
Not a rainbow-coloured bubble of nothingness,
But my soul’s refreshing longing
For eternal love.

You didn’t surround me with caressing in my sleep,
You were not a flaming wave
To cover my breast (chest) waiting,
You didn’t invite me to bed covered with petals of rose,
Where only bodies sink in bliss,
But you gave me lust for beauty,
An everlasting power.

The poem is addressed to a woman. I think it is deeper than romantic love poems. Of course it is up to You to decide, whether to translate or abandon it. Possible target articles could be "septet", "hendecasyllable", "pentasyllable" or "Sapphic stanza - inspirations".(Anagram16 (talk) 22:24, 21 August 2016 (UTC))

Not sure love is my strong suit, but I'll take a look at it. Meanwhile I've given it a section in the Workshop. At first glance it seems it would be most at home in Sapphic stanza or Adam Asnyk (normally, I'd be hesitant to put a formal paraphrase in the author's article, but given that one of his headings is "Mastery of Verse", this might be justified). My initial concern (especially if this ends up at Sapphic stanza) is the meter. For a literary translation, I'd probably choose iambic pentameter + iambic trimeter, but poets imitating Sapphic stanzas often attempt very specific imitative rhythms. Are the 11-syllable lines just standard Polish lines... if I am not mistaken:

o o o S s | o o o o S s

... or are they attempting to be more closely imitative of Sapphics? Then, are the short lines the famous Adonic "shave and a hair-cut" -- that is:

/ × × / /  -or alternatively- / × × / ×

...or are they a more generically syllabic line, such as:

o o o S s

I would be very hesitant to end each line in a feminine rhyme (for just the reasons you've already mentioned), but if those last lines are Adonics (or meant to suggest them) I think the "b" rhymes will have to be feminine -- the Adonic is just too central to both the original Sapphic stanza, and many modern adaptations to ignore. As long as we can find tasteful feminine rhymes (there are plenty) the poem will survive this "dying fall" just fine. Phil wink (talk) 01:31, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Phil, there are many things to discuss, so my answer will be divided into three parts. I hope they will cover all the problems with the future translation.

Part One:

The Polish Sapphic stanza, which has been extremely popular in Polish poetry for five centuries, is fully syllabic: o o o S s||o o o o S s/o o o S s. Only some poets use another formula: 11(4+7)/5 in their own poetry and in translating greek an Roman poets. They work hard to avoid 5+6 formula and it is not easy to struggle against your own language. But in Czech poetry the Sapphic stanza is composed in a differet way, strictly according classic pattern. May be it would be interesting to translate two such strophes, one Polish and one Czech, differently, for example the Polish one would be sSsSsSsSsS/sSsS an the Czech SsSsSssSsSs/SssSs.

This is a Sapphic stanza by Vrchlicky:

Z hlubin města spícího v mlze, v stínech

mocným hlasem přes vodu černošatou

sněhem kryté nad stráně v dál se nesou

vánoční zvony.

(Štědrovečerní zvony)

From dephts of a city sleeping in fog, through shadows

with strong voice over the water clothed in black,

over the fields (hills) go far

Christmas bells.

(Christams Eve bells)

It is unrhymed. In Polish literature Sapphic stanzas are almost always rhymed (Polish poets and readers did not like blank verse). Perhaps John Milton would not be satisfied if he saw his Paradise Lost put into Polish rhymes. (Anagram16 (talk) 10:35, 22 August 2016 (UTC))

Part two:

The story of use of Sapphic stanza in Polish literature could be a book of five hundred pages, a page for a year. We have such stanzas written both in Polish and in Latin (in 16th century). There are also many strophes derived from it, for example 11/11/5 (Cyprian Kamil Norwid), 11/11/11/11/5 (Maria Konopnicka), 11/11/11/5/11/5 (Juliusz Słowacki, Maria Konopnicka), 11/11/8/11/11/5 (Maria Konopnicka), 11/11/11/5/11/11/11/5 (Maria Konopnicka), 11/5/11/5... (Maria Konopnicka), 11/11/11/11/11/11/5 (Maria Konopnicka). We have even ottava rimas with one pentasyllable. (Anagram16 (talk) 11:05, 22 August 2016 (UTC))

Part three:

In Poland we have thousands Sapphic stanzas and very little Alcaic stanzas. Even Latin poems are not translated in the form. Stanisław Trembecki wrote one poem building a fully syllabic strophe 11/11/9/10. Antoni Lange wrote a poem named "Alcais stanza" but his strophes are not fully Alcaics, as the third line is always sSsSsSsS instead of sSsSsSsSs. The best Alcaic stanzas in Polish literature are Adam Mickiewicz's ones, but they are written in Latin:

 :Qualis fugacem quum Amphitryonius

Cacum insequutus, belluae in occiput

Rupes ruens, fumosque et ignes

Guttur in horrisonum retundens,

(Ad Napoleonem III Caesarem Augustum. Ode in Bomersurdum captum) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anagram16 (talk • contribs) 12:33, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

So, to summarize, if this is to be an illustration for Sapphic stanza (which seems like the direction we're going):

• "Uwielbienie"'s long lines don't have internal structure that strongly imitates the Sapphic long lines -- rather they are a very commonly-used Polish long line. Therefore iambic pentameter is the clear English analogue (and this assumes that either m or f endings are possible).
• Its short lines, even though they are pretty generic in internal structure, do come a little closer to imitating the Adonic, therefore a feminine ending would be appropriate (and would incidentally add a more Polish flavor in general).
• But Czech is a totally different story, and if this stanza is attempted, the internal rhythm of the paraphrase should be much more minutely imitative syllable-by-syllable -- since this is the character of the Czech original (and therefore the very point of using it as an illustration).

Do you agree with this assessment? In other news, I'll just mention (since we seem to be on the brink of big changes to Sapphic stanza): in my view, the current article has way too many English verse illustrations, and if I have time I'll go through and delete probably at least half of them. This doesn't mean we shouldn't also add some more non-English examples, but (again in my view) it's now just a laundry-list with not enough guidance on why this or that example is meaningful. Phil wink (talk) 20:46, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Phil, You write about reducing the number of English examples in the article Sapphic stanza. There is another solution, which You proposed for Alexandrine. You can make another article Sapphic stanza in English literature and put many examples there. I can write articles on Sapphic stanza in Polish literature and Sapphic stanza in Czech literature. Then You will be able to delete some quotes in the main article and insert links. In the article on Polish poetry there would be a section about using the scheme 11/5 in constructing new stanzas. I am not going to quote many poems. I think it would be enough to translate five or six stanzas (not whole poems) for these two articles. So it wouldn't be more than thirty lines. Of, course it would be work for some weeks. Perhaps it will be interesting for readers all over the world (even for thouse who never heard about Poland) to see, how a form is turned into another. There should be also an article on Sapphic stanza in Italian poetry (the Italian can imitate Latin forms very well). I'm afraid, with this I won't help You much. The second thing. In Polish hendecasyllable is a normal metre and Sapphic stanza is a common form, so I think it should be put in iambic pentameter. Pattern 11(5+6) should be sSsSsSsSsS(s). If we had (but don't have now) a Polish strophe built up of lines 11(4+7) the method of translating should be the same as with Czech stanza. You write about laundry-list. Perhaps You mean what we call "książka telefoniczna" (telephone book). It is always horrible for first-year students to see a list of one hundred names of writers to remember for the exam. No one can learn them all. I think the main article (about anything) should be rather short and resemble a long corridor with many doors - links to other articles. Please think about it. English examples are good, perhaps too good to be deleted. You are to choose, which way we will go. If you decide, we will write more detailed articles, I will be able to start now. At the end of this my letter, I want to show you one Sapphic-like three line stanza by Cyprian Kamil Norwid. Some people regard him as the greatest Polish poet. There is no need to explain the meaning. You surely know more about Socrates than I.

Coś ty Atenom zrobił, Sokratesie,

Że ci ze złota statuę lud niesie,

Otruwszy pierwéj...

What did you do, Socrates, against the Athens (Athenians),

That the people carry a statue (made) of gold for you,

Having poisoned you earlier...

The poem is rhymed aaR bbR... with the word "earlier" in the R position. In English Wikipedia article about the poet there is link to the translation by Walter Whipple (perhaps excellent, but not rhymed). (Anagram16 (talk) 23:00, 22 August 2016 (UTC))

I was not sure, if my work for English Wikipedia is needed, but now I think it is. I found an old English anthology of Polish poetry and it seems that the author of introduction thought that Jan Kochanowski (who wrote Laments), Andrzej Kochanowski (who translated Aeneid) and Piotr Kochanowski (who translated The Jerusalem Delivered and Orland Enraged) were all one person. I can't believe. Perhaps there is still much to do.(Anagram16 (talk) 17:39, 23 August 2016 (UTC))

I am not going to waste Your time, so I end quickly. I found a translation of Juliusz Słowacki's Hymn, which is an excellent example of a strophe based on the Sapphic stanza (and sesta rima): 11a/11b/11a/5b/11c/5c. It is availlable at Bartleby.com [1](Anagram16 (talk) 22:06, 23 August 2016 (UTC))

If you have the materials (and the will) to create Sapphic stanza in Polish literature and Sapphic stanza in Czech literature, then please do. I have 2 bits of advice: First, these are such specialized topics that even people who might be interested in them probably will not search for exactly these terms. Therefore you will need to lead readers to them with as many well-placed links as possible. You should add links to these Sapphic articles in every article of a poet mentioned in them, and in more general articles like Czech literature and Polish literature. If the links can't be smoothly worked in to the articles' texts, then add them to the end in a See also section. No point in doing the work if no one can find it. Also, look at the categories in similar articles, and put them in your new ones when appropriate. Second, at least at the beginning, be sparing with verse texts. For instance, 1 verse example that very strictly follows the classical models, and 1 that uses them as an inspiration for a related but distinct verse form might be enough. You should not hesitate to give details about as many poets, styles, periods, etc., as are germane, but -- another example -- your text above:

There are also many strophes derived from it, for example 11/11/5 (Cyprian Kamil Norwid), 11/11/11/11/5 (Maria Konopnicka), 11/11/11/5/11/5 (Juliusz Słowacki, Maria Konopnicka), 11/11/8/11/11/5 (Maria Konopnicka), 11/11/11/5/11/11/11/5 (Maria Konopnicka), 11/5/11/5... (Maria Konopnicka), 11/11/11/11/11/11/5 (Maria Konopnicka). We have even ottava rimas with one pentasyllable.

is perfectly clear... I mean, you'll give it a little more context in the article, but it's probably more clear than a "telephone book" of verse examples (your term actually makes more sense than ours). I probably won't at this time start a new Sapphic stanza in English literature -- not because it's a bad idea, but just because I'm not sure I want to devote the time right now to do a good job on it. You can see how slow I've been with the "alexandrine suite". Maybe someday. Cheers. Phil wink (talk) 04:08, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

I was disconnected from the Internet for three days. Soon I will write more about my plans. (Anagram16 (talk) 15:39, 30 August 2016 (UTC))

I am going to write articles about Sapphic strophe in Polish literature and in Czech literature. I don't intend to put many examples. The main reason for that is that the main feature of the form is that it has been used unchanged for many centuries. If it evolved, every stage of evolution should be illustrated, but Sappho's strophe is just the same (only adapted to requirements of a language). Next thing, these articles will be "mine", but You should put Your translations by Yourself (step by step), so that Your contributions are visible to anyone. Let no one in the world think that I translated some strophes into English. Perhaps I will start in my sandbox. I think, the article on Polish Sapphic stanza will be my first long (and the last so long this year) for English Wikipedia. I will follow Your bits of advice. (Anagram16 (talk) 09:30, 31 August 2016 (UTC))

Thanks for your concern about my authorship. I consider it joint authorship. (It drives me nuts when people claim to have "translated" from a language they don't know!) I don't think that coordinating edits is worth the bother, so since you will know what texts you need when and where, I recommend that you feel free to insert them into articles as you see fit, and, if you like, put something like added text + formal paraphrase by [[User:Phil wink]] into the edit summary.

Oh, also, I've only glanced at your work-in-progress so far... eventually I'll read it properly. As before, at some point I'll barge in and do some copy editing... would you like me to edit as it's in progress, or would you rather I wait until you move it to mainspace? Up to you. I'm happy either way. Phil wink (talk) 23:31, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be better if You edited the article in progress. If you show me the right direction, I will be able to avoid many errors. Please delete all, You think is redundant and should be deleted and write me, what should be added (for an English-speaking reader). If I use Your translation, I will insert "added text + formal paraphrase by" You formula. I will work rather slowly, but I intend to do something every day for the article, some research in the first place. I am going not only to write that "Sapphic stanza was very popular in Polish literature and very influental too" but also prove it. (Anagram16 (talk) 15:12, 4 September 2016 (UTC))