User talk:Pdebee/Project page/Places in Finland

Assistance with redirects

[Message text transferred from Boleyn's talk page. (13:28, 21 February 2020 (UTC))]
Dear Boleyn,
I hope you are keeping well? I don't know if it still counts on the 20th February, but Happy New Year to you, anyway!
I wonder if I could enlist your assistance, not immediately but starting in the near future, to look at some redirects that might need deletion, or some other treatment. I am currently planning a project to translate articles available at the Finnish Wikipedia, for which there are currently no articles here, at en.wiki. All these articles (about 60+ so far) relate to former municipalities that have been integrated into bigger places. However, these former municipalities often have a lot of history in their own right, and/or have been the birth places of notable people, or had notable features, such a churches, canals, etc.
The way I can see us working together is that I would first translate the article into English as a draft in my user space (as usual) and then, when I am ready to move it into main article space, I'd give you a heads up with the precise details for you to look at, and take action on the redirect to be removed, or whatever. Therefore, I imagine it wouldn't require a lot of time or effort on your part, but only need a bit of coordination between us. Also, there might be several of these, but not too many.
If you were able to fit me into your busy schedule, then that would be wonderful, and I would then show you what I've done so far. Thank you for your consideration, Boleyn, and please know that I won't mind if you decline; but if I hadn't asked, I might never have known that you might have said 'Yes'.
With kind regards; Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(become old-fashioned!)} 18:00, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

• (talk page watcher) @Pdebee: Why not simply overwrite the redirect with your new article? That's perfectly standard practice. You could either work directly in "article space", or create the new article in your own workspace and then copy and paste it over the redirect (the one case in which copy-and-paste is OK, as it's all your own work). Just make sure that you have good sources, and that you acknowledge the original Finnish version in your edit summary, and add the {{translated page}} template to the talk page. PamD 22:52, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Dear PamD,

First of all, many thanks for offering your helpful guidance (as a stalker ). As you gathered, I don't feel confident about handling redirects, and Boleyn has graciously helped me with some in the past. In any case, it's time I became self-sufficient and I'll make the effort of re-reading WP:REDIR (particularly WP:RTOA), and also WP:MOR and WP:USURPTITLE (Note to self: prepare for headache...).

For now, your advice is most welcome, as I didn't know it was possible simply to edit and overwrite redirect pages. In that case, please could you confirm that the following is a feasible method? Thank you in advance:

1. view the redirect page (for example: Heinjoki, which currently has: #REDIRECT [[Veshchevo]]);
2. click on edit and remove #REDIRECT [[Veshchevo]];
3. apply 'draft' & 'in use' templates: {{Draft article}}, {{in use}} & {{under construction}};
4. copy the Finnish text, translate it and verify all sources/external links (probably over several edits);
5. ensure it contains text about, and links to, Veshchevo;
6. update talk page with {{translated page}} template;
7. remove 'draft' & 'in use' templates.
   

I hope so, since that would enable these edits to count as contributions made in article space, unlike copy and pasting from drafts created in my user space.

By the way, I'm already clued up about the need to apply the {{translated page}} template (as I have translated a few articles before), as done recently at the talk page of Lauritsala, which was my first article in the series I am preparing to create.

Many thanks once again, Pam, for your help so far; it is much appreciated.

With kind regards; Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(become old-fashioned!)} 14:49, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Hello, Pdebee. I'm happy to help out, though the answer to the above is that yes, that overwriting should work fine. Ping me if you need help though, and thanks for translating articles. Boleyn (talk) 16:42, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Dear Boleyn,

Thank you so much for your reply, and also for confirming the above method is the correct approach. I hadn’t noticed, until just now, your warning of reduced activity here; so, I’ll contact you only for tricky redirects which, in any case, can wait until I've translated the bulk of these articles. I hope you’re keeping well, and many thanks once again for your continued willingness to assist me.

With very best wishes and kindest regards; Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(become old-fashioned!)} 23:19, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Ceded municipalities

Should the municipalities that were ceded to the USSR have separate articles, or should they just be included under the modern Russian settlements' articles? I think that at least the ones with abandoned centers (such as Korpiselkä) can have articles. Then again, a municipality is of course not the same as the main settlement. -- Kapulakone (talk) 08:20, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Dear Kapulakone,
Thank you for your continued interest in this project. My initial thinking was motivated by the question: "Why are there so many red links in the navboxes for articles about the municipalities of the Finnish regions?" So, I decided to create the missing articles by simply google-translating the existing articles at the Finnish Wiki. I also planned to create a new navbox for the Territories of Finland ceded to the USSR in the 1940s, based on fi:Malline:Luovutetut alueet because, as I wrote at the time: these former municipalities have a distinct history in their own right, and/or have been the birth places of notable people, or have notable features, such a churches, monuments, lakes, canals, etc. However, I must admit to getting bogged down in the complexity of such an ambitious project and did not return to make more progress with it; not being fluent in suomen kieli does not help much either!

To answer your question: if I had been able to do so, I would still have created a separate article in each case, including—if possible—a mention of the cession history and a link to the article of the modern Russian equivalent geographic entity (settlement, or whatever). That way, Wikipedia would have reflected the geography, history and culture of each Finnish municipality as it existed before 1940, as well as the modern developments post-1940.

I hope this helped you understand my own thoughts about this project; however, please feel free to adjust it to whatever you think would be best, since you are doing such a great job and will obviously have a much better idea of what would help those of our anglophone readers who are interested in this area of history and geography. In any case, thank you so much for your great work!
With kind regards;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(become old-fashioned!)} 15:59, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

PS: I have now also updated the Completed and Status / Notes columns in the first table! Thanks again for all your efforts!
With kind regards;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(become old-fashioned!)} 17:29, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Okay, I think that makes sense. One could argue that after the areas were ceded, the Soviets reestablished some of the settlements, as opposed to them being direct continuations of the Finnish ones (they were entirely repopulated and all).

Another argument, of course, is that the municipalities were indeed more than the main settlement (kirkonkylä): e.g. the Terijoki municipality was more than just Terijoki itself, it also included places such as Kuokkala (Repino) and Kellomäki (Komarovo).

After I'm done with the "non-ceded" municipalities, I will look into this. -- Kapulakone (talk) 19:11, 2 January 2023 (UTC)