User talk:Paulotanner
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--Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord2 16:36, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Led Zeppelin. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period. Additionally, users who perform several reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. When in dispute with another editor you should first try to discuss controversial changes to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. Should that prove unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. Please stop the disruption, otherwise you may be blocked from editing. Please note also that "reverting to the stable version" is not an acceptable reason to violate this policy. As you are reverting multiple editors, any more reverts on this page in the next 24 hours by you will violate 3RR, and will result in a block. Camaron · Christopher · talk 21:20, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
{{unblock|Your reason here}} below, but you should read our guide to appealing blocks first. Camaron · Christopher · talk 21:31, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
No Allmusic says CLEAR the progenitors:
"Like heavy metal, hard rock sprang from the mid-'60s intersection of blues-rock and psychedelia pioneered by artists like Cream, Jimi Hendrix, and the Jeff Beck Group. Blues-rock and psychedelia were both exploring the limits of electric amplification, and blues-rock was pushing the repeated guitar riff center stage, while taking some of the swing out of the blues beat and replacing it with a thumping power."
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:217
And repeat heavy metal for all sides: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:wifexqe5ldde Led Zeppelin was the definitive heavy metal band. It wasn't just their crushingly loud interpretation of the blues -- it was how they incorporated mythology, mysticism, and a variety of other genres (most notably world music and British folk) -- into their sound. Led Zeppelin had mystique. They rarely gave interviews, since the music press detested the band. Consequently, the only connection the audience had with the band was through the records and the concerts. More than any other band, Led Zeppelin established the concept of album-oriented rock, refusing to release popular songs from their albums as singles. In doing so, they established the dominant format for heavy metal, as well as the genre's actual sound.
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:hcfrxqy5ldte~T1 John Bonham: Across the ensuing decade, the band ruled the heavy metal landscape
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:655 Heavy Metal definition: Arguably the first true metal band, however, was Led Zeppelin.
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:3ifyxqe5ldae~T1 Iron Maiden were one of the first groups to be classified as "British metal," and, along with Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, and a host of other bands, set the rock scene for the '80s.
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=1:JUDAS%7CPRIESTthe band fused the gothic doom of Black Sabbath with the riffs and speed of Led Zeppelin,
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:anfqxq85ldke Black Sabbath's Tony Iommi is one of only two guitarists (the other being Led Zeppelin's Jimmy Page) that can take full credit for pioneering the mammoth riffs of heavy metal.
And other sources http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Led_Zeppelin#Led_Zeppelin_are_regarded_as_one_of_the_first_heavy_metal_bands_-_sources_over_the_decades
And YOUR SOURCE fight against YOU: "British rock band that was extremely popular in the 1970s. Although their musical style was diverse, they came to be well known for their influence on the development of heavy metal. "
You have ONE single source, and how many are above? Stop to distort the http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:217 Allmusic says not progenitor Like heavy metal, hard rock sprang from the mid-'60s intersection of blues-rock and psychedelia pioneered by artists like Cream, Jimi Hendrix, and the Jeff Beck Group. Blues-rock and psychedelia were both exploring the limits of electric amplification, and blues-rock was pushing the repeated guitar riff center stage, while taking some of the swing out of the blues beat and replacing it with a thumping power.
Where are the word "progenitor"? The British alone says something that all other sources do not speak. Copy and Paste the firt paragraphy of Britanica then! Paulotanner (talk) 21:39, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
- Clearly the message of the previous block has not got through; resuming edit warring as soon as a block expires is not acceptable. Given that this is being discussed, though not in the most constructive of ways, I am taking no further action at this time. However, if persistent edit warring continues on this account; I will not hesitate to re-block it for longer, even if there is no technical violation of WP:3RR. Camaron · Christopher · talk 17:22, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Jeff Beck!
[edit]Wow! I had to leave one his concerts because it was TOO LOUD, and I love JB.
How do you feel about John McLaughlin? Electric Guitarist? Oberonfitch (talk) 05:14, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Recent edits on Led Zeppelin
[edit]There has been a recent number of edits by unregistered users to Led Zeppelin including by 200.219.132.38 (talk · contribs) and 200.219.132.37 (talk · contribs). Could you verify whether you are in any way connected to this IP addresses? I am asking because some edits by these IP addresses are strikingly similar to those done with this account. Please note that per the sock puppetry policy you may use multiple accounts/IPs to edit, however you should not do so in a way which you suggests are multiple people (see WP:ILLEGIT). This means that if you choose to edit the same pages both registered and unregistered you are obliged to reveal who you are when editing logged out. Also note that WP:3RR applies per person, not per account. I would appreciate your honesty on this matter, and will take no further action if you say you are using these IPs. I will reply to your earlier comments on my talk page. Camaron · Christopher · talk 18:59, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
You can check the ip and confirm their suspicions camaron. Is obvious that the POV is the discomfort to others. For he not only introduced lies in Article led zeppelin, and scratched my comments. Before Scieberking scratch http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Led_Zeppelin&oldid=340607697 After Scieberking scratch http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Led_Zeppelin&action=historysubmit&diff=340988062&oldid=340607697
I did not know that was allowed. HE NOT ONLY CHANGED THE HISTORY AS IS scratch my ANSWERS AND YOU ALLOW. He broke the consensus, he changed the stable, he scratched my answers. And what the administration did? Paulotanner (talk) 02:30, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Blocked
[edit]
You may contest this block by adding the text
{{unblock|Your reason here}} below, but please read our guide to appealing blocks first.PROVE IT!—Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulotanner (talk • contribs)
- No need to, it was obvious per WP:DUCK. Camaron · Christopher · talk 11:26, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
censorship of opinion?
[edit]Before Scieberking scratch http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Led_Zeppelin&oldid=340607697
After Scieberking scratch http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Led_Zeppelin&action=historysubmit&diff=340988062&oldid=340607697 Paulotanner (talk) 02:14, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
- If you abuse multiple accounts/IPs your privilege of participating in debates on improving Wikipedia articles is revoked, hence the striking. It is hardly censorship since the comments are still highly visible. I was not going to block if you were forthcoming on these IPs, but you have refused to disclose them as obliged to under WP:SOCK, and instead have just demanded that other editors "prove it". Given that, I have difficulty continuing to assume good faith in the sudden use of these IPs by you and I am now endorsing the block. Camaron · Christopher · talk 11:35, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
First you changed the first paragraph without consensus. In fact, you broke the agreement signed that preserved its stable. Lykantrop: "It seems that the problem is solved..Therefore the lead section will be kept as it was before: "With their heavy, guitar-driven sound, Led Zeppelin are regarded as one of the first heavy metal bands, helping to pioneer the genre." instead of "With their heavy, guitar-driven sound, Led Zeppelin are regarded as one of the first bands that participated in the foundation of heavy metal music, therefore helping pioneer the genre."-- " Two. You no consensus to change the text still deleting the following sources: Heavy Metal in Allmusic: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:655 Iommi biography in allmusic with explicit reference to Led Zeppelin is one of the creators of heavy metalhttp://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:anfqxq85ldke Third. "Britannica Encyclopedia? The most authentic and scholarly encyclopedia ever written??" Britannica is not specialized in music, contains a partial view that omits the HISTORY. She has the value of a allmusic which is targeted at music, and even has details like magazines Kerrang, Hit Parader, Creem, Roling Stone, Metal Hammer. Not bibliography for MUSIC. It can be excellent just any subject, but when she trangride the HISTORY it loses its value. "The hard rock was in its developmental stages until Led Zeppelin 1 was released, which is often cited as the true beginning of hard rock." The Hard Rock has existed without the Led Zeppelin I with Hendrix, Jeff Beck, The Who and he existed with or without Led Zeppelin. At the time of Led Zeppelin 1 and there were already looking cites Led Zeppelin 1 as true beginning of the hard rock is making value judgments and again ignoring the story. Led Zeppelin 1 is cited as the beginning of heavy metal and the difference is striking. "Thirdly, who's "removing" other ancestors of hard rock, or even heavy metal? The sentence clearly says "one of the progenitors of", not "the one and only progenitor of". Let me again clear this with a couple of sources." Answered by fellow up on that page: ""According to my dictionary, progenitor means originator or precursor. A quick search of some online newspaper archives shows numerous references to "hard rock" music in articles dating from late 1967 through 1968 relating to a number of groups both well-known and obscure with the more familiar ones being the Jimi Hendrix Experience, Cream, The Who and Steppenwolf. Led Zeppelin's first album was released in 1969. Now, unless Led Zeppelin also invented the time machine, how could they possibly have been a progenitor of something which was already in existence when their first album was released?" Therefore if he did not create the hard rock it is not "one of the progenitors" of it and keep it in wikipedia called original research. Or better change history. Stop cutting and pasting sentences and let people know the TRUTH. Paste the complete sentences. I'll bold the facts show that Led Zeppelin is one of the parents of hard rock. showing that he exist without Led Zeppelin. http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:217 "Hard rock is a term that's frequently applied to any sort of loud, aggressive guitar rock, but for these purposes, the definition is more specific. To be sure, hard rock is loud, aggressive guitar rock, but it isn't as heavy as heavy metal, and it's only very rarely influenced by punk (though it helped inspire punk). Hard rock generally prizes big, stadium-ready guitar riffs, anthemic choruses, and stomping, swaggering backbeats; its goals are usually (though not universally) commercial, and it's nearly always saturated with machismo. With some bands, it can be difficult to tell where the dividing line between hard rock and heavy metal falls, but the basic distinction is that ever since Black Sabbath, metal tends to be darker and more menacing, while hard rock (for the most part) has remained exuberant, chest-thumping party music. Additionally, while metal riffs often function as stand-alone melodies, hard rock riffs tend to outline chord progressions in their hooks, making for looser, more elastic jams should the band decide to stretch out instrumentally. Like heavy metal, hard rock sprang from the mid-'60s intersection of blues-rock and psychedelia pioneered by artists like Cream, Jimi Hendrix, and the Jeff Beck Group. Blues-rock and psychedelia were both exploring the limits of electric amplification, and blues-rock was pushing the repeated guitar riff center stage, while taking some of the swing out of the blues beat and replacing it with a thumping power. Hard rock really came into its own at the dawn of the '70s, with the tough, boozy rock of the Rolling Stones (post-Brian Jones) and Faces, the blues-drenched power and textured arrangements of Led Zeppelin, the post-psychedelic rave-ups of Deep Purple, and the loud, ringing power chords of the Who (circa Who's Next) setting the template for much of what followed. Later in the decade, the lean, stripped-down riffs of AC/DC and Aerosmith, the catchy tunes and stage theatrics of Alice Cooper and Kiss, and the instrumental flash of Van Halen set new trends, though the essential musical blueprint for hard rock remained similar. Arena rock also became a dominant force, stripping out nearly all blues influence and concentrating solely on big, bombastic hooks. During the '80s, hard rock was dominated by glossy pop-metal, although Guns N' Roses, the Black Crowes, and several others did present a grittier, more traditionalist alternative. Old-fashioned hard rock became a scarce commodity in the post-alternative rock era; after grunge, many guitar bands not only adopted a self-consciously serious attitude, but also resisted the urge to write fist-pumping, arena-ready choruses. Still, the '90s did produce a few exceptions, such as Oasis, Urge Overkill, and the serious but anthemic Pearl Jam." Let's be very clear he says that he comes before the led Zeppelin with Cream, Hendrix and Jeff Beck. He says that it is influenced by punk, he says he came up with The Who, Stones and the respect of Led Zeppelin he merely speaks of an aspect of the band and not the band ("the blues-drenched power and textured arrangements of Led Zeppelin"). If Allmusic say: "Hard rock really came into its own at the dawn of the '70s" then it already exists, LED ZEPPELIN IS NOT ONE OF THE PROGENITORS. The logic is confirmed in the preceding sentence: "pioneered by artists like Cream, Jimi Hendrix, and the Jeff Beck Group". You are forcing your point of view distorts the logical interpretation of the text. In addition to suppressing the more than 5 sources that cite Led Zeppelin as heavy metal and not hard rock. "AlternativeMusic.Co.Za: Self-explanatory Source worthless. You're showing sources of no relevance. Are worth anything written on the Internet now? http://rock.about.com/od/rockmusic101/a/RockHistory.htm in discussion page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Led_Zeppelin#heavy_metal_first_please You wrote:"The First Source is NOT highly reliable and written by a semi-professional, Chad Bowar, who may appear to be an accountant, looks can be deceiving. About.com guides are notoriously controversial and they hire amateurs, more clearly "freelancers who work online and set their own schedules, giving them the flexibility to work when it suits them". But You fall in contradiction using the same About.com. You use "A Brief History of Rock Music" Omit this title that says much about the content of the text http://rock.about.com/od/rockmusic101/a/RockHistory.htm and omits "Although there are debates among experts, most consider groups like Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple to be the first heavy metal bands." Let's compare the curricula, as Chad Bowar with over 20 years of experience aprece not worth anything? Your "A Brief History of Rock Music" Http://rock.about.com/bio/Tim-Grierson-46190.htm Against http://heavymetal.about.com/bio/Chad-Bowar-17543.htm? Ask people read and compare the curriculum of both and draw your own conclusions. It is clear that Tim omits the story to summarize the history of rock and in the case of hard rock in one single band: Led Zeppelin. This is the font that you bring? When it suits you speak evil of about.com. And yet you use a summary of the rock for defending your point of view? "A History of Rock and Dance Music Vol 1 by" "One can find the prodromes of hard-rock [not pure hard rock] in bands such as Cream (England), Blue Cheer (California) and Guess Who (Canada), that already emphasized amplification and centered the song around the guitar riff. And they were certainly a major influence on the British bands that "invented" hard-rock." Who is more respectable this book or the allmusic? Who is more respectable this book or the biographies of Led Zeppelin? The biographies of Led Zeppelin are more specialized or not? The biographies of the LZ they call heavy metal right? This book can be considered more relevant than than the blockbusters films Some Kind of Monster, Metal a Headbanguer's Journey? This book has the level of research and know-how of a Kerrang, Hit Parader, Metal Hammer? Why their sources without regard must be taken into consideration given your POV, and mine that are more than 30 years there are not taken? Why Wikipedia is much more consistent and referenced in the article heavy metal? Because the article hard rock loads: "This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (February 2009)This article may contain original research. Please improve it by verifying the claims made and adding references. Statements consisting only of original research may be removed. More details may be available on the talk page. (February 2009)" Why you omit facts, breaks the story and does not respect other opinions. Let's see: 98.113.216.32 Says: “The citations refer to heavy metal, not hard rock, which is appropriate since hard rock predates Led Zeppelin by quite a bit, thanks to the Kinks, The Who, Cream, Hendrix and many others.” http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Led_Zeppelin&action=historysubmit&diff=339703212&oldid=339483085
98.113.216.32 Says:”I don't care what Susan Fast says. She's objectively wrong and her cite is the only one that says something so appallingly ignorant.” http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Led_Zeppelin&action=historysubmit&diff=339703212&oldid=339633935 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Led_Zeppelin&action=historysubmit&diff=339989416&oldid=339980499 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Led_Zeppelin&action=historysubmit&diff=339994623&oldid=339992496 Showing you erasing allmusic source who points to heavy metal http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Led_Zeppelin&action=historysubmit&diff=340256563&oldid=340001920 Again erase two allmusic's heavy metal sources http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Led_Zeppelin&action=historysubmit&diff=340316313&oldid=340296474 POV again against History and Allmusic http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Led_Zeppelin&action=historysubmit&diff=340501235&oldid=340452794 8 sources realible erased by you http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Led_Zeppelin&action=historysubmit&diff=340501235&oldid=340456747 ERASE the allmusic heavy metal links! This is absurd! And Hit in one single source, Allmusic says more than 5 times heavy metal and you cross all quotes. How many editors you are in edit war by imposing their point of view? Who do you think you fool omitting the History? The history show manyprogenitors not Led Zeppelin. The wikipedia will use from untrusted sources to promote their personal interests? "You've tried your luck on Them Crooked Vultures, Blue Cheer" And to finalize your ad hominem. Can you read? read what I wrote I'll introduce sources of ALLMUSIC, I regarded reputable sources, not use of summaries of rock or personal blogs pra defend my point of view. Read if you can Them Crooked Vultures compare: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Them_Crooked_Vultures&diff=prev&oldid=327024384 with Them Crooked Vultures in Allmusic http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:kbfpxz9gldhe Styles Pop/Rock Hard Rock Alternative Pop/ Rock Alternative/ Indie Rock Stoner Metal Heavy Metal Blue Cheer http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Blue_Cheer&diff=prev&oldid=324707410 compare with Blue heer in Allmusic http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:gifqxqw5ldde http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:2690 This is POV or not? "I actually don't mind the current version, personally. Paulotanner's right, though, that hard rock did essentially exist before Zeppelin." (Albert Mond (talk) 07:58, 28 January 2010 (UTC)) "I think the lead paragraph has several problems and needs to be rewritten. As I mentioned above in Heavy Metal Revisited: Your Suggestions, it is difficult to justify Led Zeppelin being a progenitor of hard rock when that music style was already in existence and recognized as such when Led Zeppelin's first album was released. Despite the source, I just can't get past the chronology. Also regarding the Britannica article, it contains contributions from two other editors and the "Editors of Enclopedia Britannica" (which are site visitors) so it can't be ascertained whether that particular passage was written by the primary author. Susan Fast wrote a book on Led Zeppelin, In the Houses of the Holy: Led Zeppelin and the Power of Rock Music, which doesn't appear to mention anything about them being a progenitor of hard rock although it does make a reference to Led Zeppelin as the progenitors of heavy metal. The rest of the paragraph has problems as well. The part about "indiviualistic style" is vague and uninformative. Not releasing singles in the UK is noteworthy but I don't think it is of such importance that it belongs in the lead. Also, the mention of "album-oriented rock" might be confusing to some readers in the US where this commonly refers to a radio format popular in the late 1970s. I think the contributor meant to say that Led Zeppelin did not favor singles because they wanted people to hear their songs within the context of the album, rather than suggesting something about a radio format." Piriczki (talk) 16:05, 28 January 2010 (UTC) "Greetings. I just wanted to bring up a couple of arguments to Scieberking. First thing is, that the band's opinion about their genre is not relevant. The band's opinion is not a third party reliable source. Many bands do not agree with their categorization as heavy metal, including AC/DC, Motörhead among others. The other thing is: how do we know that the "allegation" (as you call it) that they are a heavy metal band is disputable? Your attitude is that the heavy metal genre "beyond any doubt, is disputable". I personally do not know whether it is disputable or not. To find out the answer, whether the heavy metal genre is disputable or not, we need to look up to the sources: To illustrate one point, I will pick one of the above presented reliable third party sources: Allmusic Led Zeppelin biography. This source states: "Led Zeppelin was the definitive heavy metal band." This is not only an explicit statement that they are a heavy metal band. This statement also includes the word "definitive", which is crucial to illustrate this point. This word indicates that the author is conscious of other bands that can be heavy metal (or are disputably heavy metal), but that this one is the "definitive" one: "Led Zeppelin was the definitive heavy metal band." Except for this source, many others can be found stating defacto simply "Led Zeppelin are heavy metal": "one of the first heavy metal bands" (BBC), "the most influential and successful heavy-metal pioneer" (Rolling Stone) To illustrate the other point, we need reliable third party sources that state something in the manner of "Led Zeppelin is not a heavy metal band" or at least "it is arguable whether Led Zeppelin played heavy metal at all". But don't forget that statements such as "Arguably the first true metal band, however, was Led Zeppelin"[1] do not support this point. That statement says that it is arguable whether Led Zeppelin was the first metal band, or not the first one. But it does not say that it is arguable whether Led Zeppelin play heavy metal at all. A source that states that Led Zeppelin is hard rock and blues rock also does not support this point, as well as multiple such sources don't" (WP:SYNTHESIS) "So to illustrate your point, the only thing you need to do, Scieberking, is to present third party sources, reliable at least as Allmusic, BBC or Rolling Stone, that state explicitly "Led Zeppelin is not a heavy metal band" or at least "it is arguable whether Led Zeppelin played heavy metal at all".-"- LYKANTROP ✉ 23:39, 29 December 2009 (UTC) "don't understand how fan's opinion is relevant. Try to elaborate on some statements written by proffesional music journalists. A fan's statement such as "Only morons categorize Zep as heavy metal" does not seem to be reliable enough for an encyclopedia. You should try to come up with a counterweight to Allmusic, BBC, Rolling Stone "Led Zeppelin was the definitive heavy metal band", not some random fan's opinion. If you fail to do so, there's nothing much more I can discuss.--" LYKANTROP ✉ 11:12, 30 December 2009 (UTC) "What you brought up, Scieberking, is one musician's opinion and, again, the band's attitude. That is not really satisfactory for me. One more thing that I wanted to say is: Wikipedia also does not make compromise in its content to prevent vadalism. Neither can Wikipedia just change or compromise what the sources say to prevent vandalism, nor can Wikipedia hide the important facts. The only tool to prevent vandalism is reverting it, not altering the content that is backed up by sources. I think I've said pretty much everything. Most likely, I won't be online for the next couple of days so have a good luck with the discussion. Cheers.--" LYKANTROP ✉ 14:55, 30 December 2009 (UTC) "It seems that the problem is solved..Therefore the lead section will be kept as it was before: "With their heavy, guitar-driven sound, Led Zeppelin are regarded as one of the first heavy metal bands, helping to pioneer the genre." instead of "With their heavy, guitar-driven sound, Led Zeppelin are regarded as one of the first bands that participated in the foundation of heavy metal music, therefore helping pioneer the genre."--" LYKANTROP ✉ 14:57, 4 January 2010 (UTC) "It is unspeakable ignorance to suggest that Led Zeppelin are the progenitors of hard rock. Led Zeppelin formed in 1968 and didn't release an album until 1969. Hard rock was already thriving thanks to the likes of the Kinks, The Who, Cream, Jimi Hendrix Experience and many others from the Amboy Dukes to Steppenwolf to Blue Cheer to Iron Butterfly and more." 98.113.216.32 (talk) 05:11, 23 January 2010 (UTC) "The Jimi Hendrix Experience are a hard rock band. They released all three of their albums before Led Zeppelin released anything. The Who are a hard rock band. Their live sound is as hard rock as hard rock gets, long before Led Zeppelin existed. Cream are a hard rock band. They formed, released their music, and broke up before Led Zeppelin released anything. Any reasonably informed rock aficionado knows this." 98.113.216.32 (talk) 16:48, 24 January 2010 (UTC) I do not invent what I enter in wikipedia, I use the most reputable sources. Unlike you that distorts facts and did not follow any contrary opinion. Tsc, tsc, you are in fight againt all... and ERASE reputable sources. Paulotanner (talk) 22:29, 28 January 2010 (UTC)