User talk:Omessiori

D'ror Yikra

Hi, I appreciate you helping to improve D'ror Yikra. Your three changes to the translation:

• "plant a vine" > "a sprout whistles" is is incorrect. Compare Jer. 2:21, "I planted you a vine"
• "vat within Botzrah" > "fertilizer in a drought" is incorrect. Cf. Is. 63:1-3, "Vinegar-stained clothing from Botzrah . . . I trod a vat"
• "a press in once-strong Edom" > "and vines in the defeated land of Edom" seems to express the correct meaning but IMO it's less literal. Can you tell me how you reached this wording?

Thanks and happy editing, GordonGlottal (talk) 17:40, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

"נטע שורק בתוך כרמי" – בטוח לא מדובר בזמן ציווי (PLANT) אלא בזמן הווה (PLANTING). המילה שורק היא אכן גפן מובחרת, אך גם שריקה וְהָיְתָ֥ה אֱד֖וֹם לְשַׁמָּ֑ה כֹּ֚ל עֹבֵ֣ר עָלֶ֔יהָ יִשֹּׁ֥ם וְיִשְׁרֹ֖ק עַל־כׇּל־מַכּוֹתֶֽהָ"

“פורה בתוך בצורה”. ניגודיות מובנית היא מוטיב חוזר בשירה, בעיקר בשירה קדומה, שבה משתמשים ליצירת דרמה בעיקר (לדוגמא, שלום שבזי, ממקור אתני דומה "דוד מחה אויב מעקש ,כי לנגדי הוא למוקש ,ועדי מתי אבקש ,אותך עימי ואינך"). מכך אני מסיק ש:פורה ובצורה הן הטיות של פוריות (אדמה) ובצורת.

לגבי "וגם בבל אשר גברה". קראתי ממקור אחר את מילות השיר - ויש לך טעות במקור. לא "גת" אלא "גם".

גברה – התגברו עליה, איננה עוד.

ישעיהו כ"ב יז-יט: "הִנֵּ֤ה יְהוָה֙ מְטַלְטֶלְךָ֔ טַלְטֵלָ֖ה גָּ֑בֶר וְעֹטְךָ֖ עָטֹֽה׃ צָנ֤וֹף יִצְנׇפְךָ֙ צְנֵפָ֔ה כַּדּ֕וּר אֶל־אֶ֖רֶץ רַחֲבַ֣ת יָדָ֑יִם שָׁ֣מָּה תָמ֗וּת וְשָׁ֨מָּה֙ מַרְכְּב֣וֹת כְּבוֹדֶ֔ךָ קְל֖וֹן בֵּ֥ית אֲדֹנֶֽיךָ׃"

דְּרוֹךְ פּוּרָה בְּתוֹךְ בָּצְרָה.

וְגַם בָּבֶל (נ"א: אֱדוֹם) אֲשֶׁר גָּבְרָה.

Inject fertilizer within the drought,

Also, confirm the extinction of Babylon

פירוש אלטרניבי הוא ש"בצרה" הוא בפשטות מכשיר לבציר (דריכת ענבים), ופורה הם הגפנים.

ישעיהו ס"ג:

מִי־זֶ֣ה ׀ בָּ֣א מֵאֱד֗וֹם חֲמ֤וּץ בְּגָדִים֙ מִבׇּצְרָ֔ה זֶ֚ה הָד֣וּר בִּלְבוּשׁ֔וֹ צֹעֶ֖ה בְּרֹ֣ב כֹּח֑וֹ אֲנִ֛י מְדַבֵּ֥ר בִּצְדָקָ֖ה רַ֥ב לְהוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

(ב)

מַדּ֥וּעַ אָדֹ֖ם לִלְבוּשֶׁ֑ךָ וּבְגָדֶ֖יךָ כְּדֹרֵ֥ךְ בְּגַֽת׃

(ג)

פּוּרָ֣ה ׀ דָּרַ֣כְתִּי לְבַדִּ֗י וּמֵֽעַמִּים֙ אֵֽין־אִ֣ישׁ אִתִּ֔י וְאֶדְרְכֵ֣ם בְּאַפִּ֔י וְאֶרְמְסֵ֖ם בַּחֲמָתִ֑י וְיֵ֤ז נִצְחָם֙ עַל־בְּגָדַ֔י

וְכׇל־מַלְבּוּשַׁ֖י אֶגְאָֽלְתִּי׃

Press the vines in the winepress,

Also, confirm the extinction of Babylon (or: also in extinct babylon) 142.112.177.150 (talk) 21:05, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Hope it's OK to respond in English, which is easier for me and for Wikipedia formatting.

• The correct text is גת באדום. All manuscript versions, and even early printings, contain this text. Only in last few centuries, because אדום became a euphemism for Christianity, was it edited to גם בבל for political reasons. You can see the many manuscript versions I consulted by clicking on the citations next to "Hebrew Original" on the wiki page. גם באדום or וְגַם בָּבֶל (נ"א: אֱדוֹם) results from a very silly mistake by Abraham Berliner in his 1891 edition of מחזור ויטרי. That edition is based on BL Add. MS 27200, which plainly reads גת באדום like all the other manuscripts, but it was miscopied. Amazingly, no subsequent edition has corrected this mistake and it has been propounded by innumerable siddurim as an alternative girsa.
• About נטע, you are incorrect. It is a צווי, in exactly the same form as שעה of the following phrase (the vowels are different because of the different effect of final ה and ע) or the common Biblical imperative נטה. You can see a chart here which uses שלח for the ע/ח example (this is a poor choice because שלח actually presents with the abnormal form שַׁלַּח).
• שרק (with a shin) is indeed a verb meaning "to hiss mockingly" but it makes absolutely no sense here. שורק/סורק "vine" is an actual noun. The payytan is deliberately referencing Jer. 50:13, and "plant a vine" fits perfectly in the sentence.
• The intended parallel-for-emphasis for Botzrah is Edom, and that of פורה is גת: "Tread a vat in Botzrah/and a press in Edom". This is exactly the way that Isaiah 63 had used them: "Who is it that comes from Edom/vinegar-stained from Botzrah" and "Why are your clothes like a press-treader's? I tread a vat alone". These are not common words; the payytan is deliberately reordering the language of this specific passage. Further, בצרה cannot be related to בצורת because many manuscripts spell it בוצרה (this is pronounced the same way because the qamatz of בצרה is qaton anyway). I don't know where "inject" would come from as a translation of דרוך. This one is baffling to me -- essentially you've turned a perfectly logical line into gibberish by force of multiple stacked misunderstandings.
• On גברה I think we don't disagree much. I read it as "אדום אשר גברה (בימים ההם)" Edom which once ruled. Can you point to an example where the qal of גבר means to be defeated? In the verse you provided, Is. 22:17, it seems to mean "man" as bavli Ketubot 28a says, or "strongly", as Rashi alternately proposes.

GordonGlottal (talk) 01:10, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Botzrah is either a place (named Bortrah), a fortress (מבצר), or a tilt of the root צ.ר )which is also formed into בצורת or צרה

You may search the word בצר here to see where it appears and in which context (https://search.dicta.org.il/result?text=%D7%91%D7%A6%D7%A8%D7%94&order=tanach(

דרוך is also launch (a weapon or tool, לדרוך נשק(. perhaps the word inject is indeed the wrong word. What I am trying to express, is a plea to "launch the botzrah with a vine".

גברה:

בראשית ז, יט

וְהַמַּ֗יִם גָּֽבְר֛וּ מְאֹ֥ד מְאֹ֖ד עַל־הָאָ֑רֶץ וַיְכֻסּ֗וּ כׇּל־הֶֽהָרִים֙ הַגְּבֹהִ֔ים אֲשֶׁר־תַּ֖חַת כׇּל־הַשָּׁמָֽיִם׃ 142.112.177.150 (talk) 02:02, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

also...

וְגַם בָּבֶל (נ"א: אֱדוֹם) אֲשֶׁר גָּבְרָה.

Im not sure about אשר. it could mean "Edom which has passed" or - an additional plea to God: "confirm", in the context "confirm Edom is extinct" 142.112.177.150 (talk) 02:07, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Im sorry. I wrote "launch" for דרוך, I meant "Load"

לדרוך נשק - to load a weapon. 142.112.177.150 (talk) 02:15, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

”אֲשֶׁר חִצָּיו שְׁנוּנִים, וְכָל־קַשְּׁתֹתָיו דְּרֻכוֹת; פַּרְסוֹת סוּסָיו כַּצַּר נֶחְשָׁבוּ, וְגַלְגִּלָּיו כַּסּוּפָה.“ (ישעיהו ה, פסוק כח)

Isaiah 5:28

28 Their arrows are sharp,

all their bows are strung;

their horses’ hooves seem like flint,

their chariot wheels like a whirlwind.

”כִּי־מִפְּנֵי חֲרָבוֹת נָדָדוּ, מִפְּנֵי חֶרֶב נְטוּשָׁה; וּמִפְּנֵי קֶשֶׁת דְּרוּכָה, וּמִפְּנֵי כֹּבֶד מִלְחָמָה.“ (ישעיהו כא, פסוק טו)

21:15 They flee from the sword,

from the drawn sword,

from the bent bow

and from the heat of battle.

These examples are in past tense, therefor using "shuruk" (oo, not o). but words with a similar structure change their vowel to "o", when converted into "demand" tense. 142.112.177.150 (talk) 02:45, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

לפעם הזה אני אנסה לענות בעברית. למילה "בוצרה" יש רק פירוש אחד = "שם של עיר אחת במדינת אדום". לסברה, אפשר שהשם בוצרה היא משורש ב.צ.ר., ו"בוצרה" באדומית היא דומה ל"מבצר" בעברית, אבל בתנ"ך ובפיוט הזה (שמבוסס לגמרי על לשון המקרא) אין לדבר שייכות, אלא רק בפילולוגיה אוניברסטית. כמו בכ"מ בתנ"ך, הפיוט בוחר "בוצרה" כמילה נרדפת ל"אדום". לפירושך, מה עושה המילה "בתוך"? ואיך השורה הזה שייך לחרוזה בכללתו? לפירוש הנכון, החרוזה מתפללת לה' לענוש את אויבי ישראל. היא אומרת, תכתים את בגדיך בדם אדום (שהיא הנמשל ל"דרוך פורה וגת"), ונתוש את צרינו באף ועברה. על ענין "גברה", לפע"ד, דוגמתך בשבילי. "המים גברו" = המים מולך על הארץ, כאדום מולכת על גבוליה בזמן עבר, ולא המים מנוצח מכח הארץ, כמו (בפירושך) אדום מנוצחת מכח אלקים. פירוש שלמילה "דרוך" הוא פשוט מפסוקים שלנו בספר ישעיה "דורך בגת . . . פורה דרכתי" וממשמעות השורה בכללתו. שבת שלום, גורדון. GordonGlottal (talk) 03:41, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for thoroughly considering my comments. Indeed it appears that you have done much work, and well done - on this piut, thus I retract.

My example about גברו is in a different tense and subject.

The word להתגבר in Hebrew (still commonly used) means: to overcome, but it's tilting provides the references within the context. אנחנו נתגבר (we will prevail). תגביר את המוסיקה (increase the volume). הפועל חיפה גברה על מכבי חיפה במשחק הכדורגל אתמול (hapoel Haifa defeated Maccabi Haifa, in yesterday's soccer match). גיבור (hero). It can also be argued that the word man (גבר) is originated in this root - as it defines the subject of definition - by it's description. Perhaps the best characterization of the masculine ethos is the overcoming of difficulties.

The word גברה doesn't appear in it's form in the bible, in my example "gavaru" - the ב doesn't have a שווא, but a פתח. In the piut - it's "gav-vra" (with a דגש). This conversion may not only mean a different tense and speaker, but also a different subject (was overcome, instead of overcame).

Regardless of how you choose edit or not, this was a fun "התפלפלות", take care, Shabbat Shalom, and דרור יקרא.

Ori.

Another note, agreed as to it being unrelated. Botzrah is also mentioned in reference to a fort, in

מיכה ב יב

"אָסֹ֨ף אֶאֱסֹ֜ף יַעֲקֹ֣ב כֻּלָּ֗ךְ קַבֵּ֤ץ אֲקַבֵּץ֙ שְׁאֵרִ֣ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל יַ֥חַד אֲשִׂימֶ֖נּוּ כְּצֹ֣אן בׇּצְרָ֑ה כְּעֵ֨דֶר֙ בְּת֣וֹךְ הַדָּֽבְר֔וֹ תְּהִימֶ֖נָה מֵאָדָֽם׃"

Micah 2 12 “I will surely gather all of you, Jacob;

   I will surely bring together the remnant(A) of Israel.

I will bring them together like sheep in a pen,

   like a flock in its pasture ( pasturing as a fort בצרה);
   the place will throng with people."

התבצרות - to build and protect yourself in a fort. נבצרות - fortifications.

בציר - harvesting wine.

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