User talk:Olivier/Archives 2007

Le Port, Réunion

Hi Olivier, it seems you're the France expert around here. I added an infobox to the page Le Port, Réunion, copied from fr:Le Port, Réunion, and there's a rather ugly {{caption}} sign visible. I'm not so good with fixing templates, so could you have a look at it to see why that happens. It's not happened on other communes I've added similar infoboxes to. Thanks in advance--Montchav 13:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I have fixed the template. Let me know if you have other questions. Cheers! olivier 17:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Anglicisation

Hello - I'm contacting you because of your involvement with many French articles. A few have undertaken the task of "Anglicising" French terms in Wiki articles (eg/: "Région => Region"; "Département => Departement") - there doesn't seem to have been any discussion about this, so your point of view would be welcome. I think a good place for this discussion would be the WP:FR page. Thank you. THEPROMENADER 14:25, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Olivier- Because of your past work on the Wikiprojects for French "régions" and "départements", I too thought you might be interested in contributing to the current discussion over French vs. English spelling of those very words taking place at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_France#Anglicisation. Cheers. --NYArtsnWords 23:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I would like to ask you again for your input in this - literally thousands of articles have been sloppily "Anglicised" already (changing "région" for "region", for example, without modifying the phrase around it in the least to provide the proper context/meaning of the term) without any prior discussion at all. For certain words whose most-known English meaning is different than its French counterpart, the French italicised style has been used from the start for for both its similarity to the English wordform yet precision of meaning - yet there has been no case to date made as to why these terms should be 'translated' - it was just done. You are perhaps Wiki's largest contributor to France-topic articles, so your input in this case is even important. Please help. THEPROMENADER 18:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

HI Promenader (and others)! First of all, thanks for all the efforts that you have put into this. I just had my first look at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject France and it seems to be a very very time consuming effort. I am going to read this page and give my 2 cents. In any case, the result of the discussions should be publicized, at least on Wikipedia:WikiProject France/Conventions and on other naming conventions pages. That would be the only way to have users follow a consensus, once it has been reached. As you know, the "anglicisation" case is not the only one. Just by looking at my talk page, you can see other issues related to "Basque naming of places" and Germanisation, and the list can be long, with, among others, Occitan names. I have the impression to have seen them all (these issues) since I am contributing to Wikipedia, but there always seem to be new ones popping up. In any case, my experience is that some people with an agenda and an amazing amount of time available are regularly pushing for their view to be adopted, typically by applying the "be bold in editing principle" and changing hundreds/thousands of articles. The bright side of the story, though, is the self-regulating process at work within Wikipedia. Eventually those people with an agenda become tired and "reasonable" people revert their changes, although that might take some time and a lot of effort. It is certainly time to find a consensus and set French naming conventions as guidelines. I am afraid that I won't be able to put too much time in it in the short term. In any case, I will try to give my opinion. Please let me know again if you need my input and thanks again for your efforts. olivier 07:04, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

That's both a patient and wise outlook. I do think your input would be very important all the same, so please do leave a word - those actually trying to reason there (as opposed to those presenting only arguments supporting their own point of view) are few. Let's do our best in the light of what's best for the reader, even if the "tireless crusade" may eventually (albeit temporarily) hold sway. At least we can say we did our best while we were here, instead of retreating and waiting for reason to return once more to those pages.

Take care, best,

THEPROMENADER 01:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Problem with User:R9tgokunks again

Olivier, it seems we have a problem with User:R9tgokunks again. This time he has reverted the Alsace article to insert this sentence: "many still feel that it rightfully belongs to Germany". This is a blatant case of POV and I have reverted it. Can you please check it. Thanks. Godefroy 14:51, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Olivier, User:R9tgokunks is on the rampage again. This time the target is the Strasbourg article where he made changes according to his very revisionist vision of history (according to him Strasbourg was not annexed by Germany in 1871, it was "ceded", and it wasn't restored to France in 1919, it was "annexed"). The attitude of this user is really annoying. He seems very displeased by the fact that Alsace is French, and he brings his POV in many Alsace related articles. He does the same in articles of Polish cities formerly German by the way. Can you have a look at the Strasbourg article? Thanks. Godefroy 13:05, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration#Anglicisation of French administrative terms

I have initiated a Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration#Anglicisation of French administrative terms. Please leave your comments. -- NYArtsnWords 22:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I cannot see it. Has it been removed? completed? olivier 12:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

It was refused, actually. We're presently trying to come up with a place to discuss what should be done about the mess made by the existing no-consensus hasty translations - and what sort of "improvements" can be made in this regard for the future. Any suggestions?

At present I think it would be completely correct to put the Anglicised articles back to their former state pending further discussion - but this is an enormous task, and the instigators of these changes seem unwilling to help clean up the mess they've created. So this problem falls between a few "Wikiprotocol" lines - but lies within none particularily. Any input on this would be welcome of course. Cheers. THEPROMENADER 12:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it is a tough one. A few days ago, I literally spent hours reading the discussion about this topic, without even being able to read until the end (because of its length!). I must admit that both parties seem to have good arguments, and finally, I tend to be quite neutral here. I have seen articles for quite a few countries recently: most administrative division names have been amglicized, and I must admit that it quite makes sense to me. So why not with the French ones, after all. I guess that it's probably not what you want to hear from me, so I will keep out of the debate and will probably express a "neutral" if I am asked to. Cheers and in any case thanks a lot for your efforts. olivier 13:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Not what I "want to hear"? By your reply, it looks like you've been around here a while : ) Yet there shouldn't be any "side" at all in this: the English method works if proper context and definition is provided for English words differing in meaning than their French counterpart; the French method works when the French word used is both perfectly recognisable to English speakers and obvious in its meaning differing from that most commonly understood to the same. There is no reason we should not be free to use both as, as even a long page of argument failed to prove, neither method is broken.

Yet note the particularity of each method. The only thing that bothers me - and this is something very easy to read - is the quality of the translations made: the word "région", for example, was simply replaced with "region" with no other modifications to the phrase around the word; to the English speaker, is the "Mantes region" an "area around Mantes" or an administrative région of France? The fact that this quality of 'translation' was imposed - also with other words such as "département" - throughout thousands of articles makes it only worse. Even more, without any plan, method or discussion beforehand. THEPROMENADER 16:20, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

So now that we are here, what should be done? At the very least we should try to have some homogeneity across French location articles. Is there anything you guys agreed on? olivier 17:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Nothing agreed on at all. I did propose to leave the article titles in their "Anglicised" state and put the hasty translations back to their original form, but that conversation seems to have stalled. The hasty translations now lacking context I consider errors, so can be reasonably returned to their former state - but I hesitate at the task of combing thousands of articles through someone else's contribution list for these errors. THEPROMENADER 19:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

HK cinema

Just to let you know template exists for footer of CINEMA ARTICLES

♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^{"I've been expecting you"} 14:50, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I just noticed that you were super fast at adding it to the new article! Cheers. olivier 14:52, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Also in the talk page needs infobox=yes cheers ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^{"I've been expecting you"} 14:52, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

How can you be so fast? are you are robot or a human being? or are you sitting behind me watching what I am doing??? :-) olivier 14:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Alex Fong Chung-Sun CSD

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yuppie afd

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/yuppie. I've nominated yuppie for deletion. Please feel free to share your thoughts.--Loodog 03:47, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

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Never mind the above note :) Peacent 19:22, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Image:Tai Mo Shan Rotary Park - sundial.jpg listed for deletion

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non-commercial use only

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If you created this media file and want to use it on Wikipedia, you may re-upload it (or amend the image description if it has not yet been deleted) and use the license {{GFDL-self}} to license it under the GFDL, or {{cc-by-sa-2.5}} to license it under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike license, or use {{PD-self}} to release it into the public domain.

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If you have any questions please ask at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. Thank you. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 19:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Also Image:Bell_Folwer.jpg

Image:Ng Tung Chai.jpg listed for deletion

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Res publica

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Notability of Foreign trade

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Your advice on "internationalisation" in French articles

Hello - I'd like to ask you for a reasoned second opinion about a practice that I have noticed for more than two years now.

I question the phrase "Paris metropolitan area" that is present in most of the Paris-related articles as a translation of aire urbaine.

My arguments against this are many:

• Most importantly, no official French organisations use this term as a translation for aire urbaine - or even use the term for anything concerning France - in their English-language documentation, not even the INSEE.
• "Metropolitan area" is something different in every country that uses the term - but France does not, so has none.
• Some foreign articles on France try to use the term all the same for the comfort of their "local" readers, but since France does not use the term, its interpretations are many: up at the top of the list (in a search for "Paris metropolitan area") you'll see Encarta's description of the term is Paris' pôle urbain (urban area), not its aire urbaine.
• Some foreign demographics papers/studies striving for an "international methodology" use the term, but provide a definition in the the context of the paper; Wiki provides no such context. Some foreign papers use the term where no precision is needed - to say "in Paris' populated area" - but its use here is a translation of the quite well-defined aire urbaine.
• Finally, you'll see in the above Google search that the only "encyclopedia" websites using this term are Wiki and clone "info" websites that scrape from it. Demographia is an exception, but they equate the "Paris metropolitan area" with the very precise adminsitrative Île-de-France, and always place the latter in brackets afterwards - in an internal methodology similar to the abovementioned studies.

... so in short, in its present use in Wiki, I see the term as being a "false translation", as unofficially used original research, misleading, and as being ambiguous where it could be precise. As a solution, I propose changing any instances of the term to aire urbaine (as it is a proper name) and, along the lines of Demographia's solution, putting "metropolitan area" in brackets afterwards. This as a compromise should clear things up nicely, but to be frank I'd be happy with removing the term altogether for its ambiguity.

I should normally be able to just open up a talk-page discussion on all this, but it is extremely hard to get consensus in this way these days: traffic to French-subject articles seems low. I'd just like your opinion for now, and perhaps we can take this discussion elsewhere later. THEPROMENADER 07:51, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

It didn't take much research to clear the issue up - please see here. I would still welcome any thoughts on the issue, but it's all become quite simple suddenly. Thanks for your time. THEPROMENADER 09:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Image:Timbpt2.jpg

Hi. Please see Commons:Deletion requests/Image:Timbpt2.jpg. Thanks!   — Jeff G. (talk|contribs) 06:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

If French stamps pictures cannot be kept here, then I agree with the deltion. olivier 06:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Frenhc communes

I can't believe there#s still so many missing. I'll aim to stub a few when I can ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^{"Expecting you?" Contribs} 12:00, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I know. The English Wiki is actually far behind other languages Wiki, some of which already have all of them! olivier 16:39, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

By the way, if you don't know about this, you can have a look there: Wikipedia:WikiProject French communes. Thanks! olivier 16:42, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Please don't forget to include the interwiki links. See [5]. Punkmorten 09:42, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I always include a link to the French Wikipedia article. It allows an easy addition of links to other languages with a "bot". This is much more efficient than adding these links manually myself. olivier 09:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

How about population count? Such information adds a lot to the article. [6] Punkmorten 11:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Just click on the fr: link and you will have all the useful information. olivier 11:41, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Niice. Punkmorten 16:10, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

The Rocky Horror Picture Show

You are listed as one of the earlier editors of this article that still maintains their membership. I invite you to visit the peer review for the current article here.--Amadscientist 08:46, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Placename Disambiguation

Hello Olivier.

I was recently involved in a discussion about placename disambiguation, and happened to come across your move of Dieppe, France to Dieppe, Seine-Maritime [7], and I'd like to ask you about your motives for that, plus about your choice of method.

I'm a bit disturbed at the "American-style" of place-naming spreading through English Wiki against all pre-existing disambiguation guidelines - I don't think the comma convention adapted to either placenames (it makes multiple-level disambiguation ambiguous) or the Wiki media, nor do I see sense in using only provinces/states as disambiguation - this method does not take into account those from other countries who are not aware of the same. Many English-speakers do know the names of most U.S. States (although this foreknowledge is a presumption that any qualified reference work should never make), but using "Seine-Maritime" in the same method as disambiguation?

I do understand the need to disambiguate because of the internal conflict (France has two Dieppes), but is the comma convention most adapted to this? Although it is a common local U.S. practice, France has never used this method.

I do think Wiki needs to adapt its placename naming methods to the media that is Wiki more than catering to the everyday habits of a majority - but not all Wiki contributors - but perhaps this is a greater debate.

Are you at all interested in this question? THEPROMENADER 11:19, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey, Promenader, thank you for your input. Glad to see that your interest is moving slightly outside of the Paris area :-) There have been massive discussions about the topic of disambiguation of the name of places in the early days of Wikipedia - at least for what I know. The conclusion for the French names is that there is no official way to disambiguate, be it comma or brackets. Basically, I agree with and support the common comma disambiguation usage for French communes in the English Wikipedia. Three of the main reasons are: 1) it is perfectly acceptable 2) it looks familiar to English-language readers 3) that's the way virtually all French communes are disambiguated in the English Wiki. For the sake of uniformity, I have disambiguated all French communes this way (a lot). You may want to look at Wikipedia:WikiProject French communes which really needs help, and you may want to take the discussion there. While I am happy to give my input, I am certainly not ready to engage in the kind of massive discussions which you have been engaged in regarding Paris. Cheers! olivier 11:39, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, understood, no problem at all, and no need to change anything until methods are defined. I can only agree about avoiding "massive discussions" - as far as Paris was concerned, most of these were unneccessary anyway - I do think a Wiki-wide-discussion about a unique Wiki-wide place-naming method is a "wee" bit more important than all that one-on-one nonesense : )

I'll have a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject French communes for sure - it will be a convenient "next" to the "Mines of Paris" article I am working on now. Cheers! THEPROMENADER 11:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Notification of proposal: Guideline/policy governing lists

Dear editor:

Given your extensive experience here on Wikipedia, I would greatly appreciate your input on the following topic:

Wikipedia: Village pump (policy)#Proposal to make a policy or guideline for lists

Thank you in advance for any thoughts you may have on the topic.

Regards,

Sidatio 15:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Barnstar

		French Barnstar of National Merit
		Olivier félicitation for the great work! This award goes to your tireless contribution by adding several articles to WP:FR, especially pertaining to the geography of France. Awarded by STTW (talk) 12:22, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Random Smile!

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Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

-WarthogDemon 15:39, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi I've been adding French communes to wikipedia. But please can you do somethuing? Like Torcy, Pas-de-Calais please can you add the infobox and the population please. All that has to be done is paste the french infobox into the english ine as you may know -it just it saves me having to do every one later when you could do it and take about 10 second longer thanks ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^"Talk"? 14:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Not sure to understand what you want: I am doing exactly the same, adding communes and inofboxes for some of them. Would you mind adding infoboxes to the communes that I am adding? just a 10 sec work. olivier 14:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Like Laval-Saint-Roman. I would chase you around but I'm tied at the moment. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^"Talk"? 14:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

All I'm saying is that at present they could quite easily be deleted for having no content. However if you intend going back and adding the infoboxes later and prefer to work this way to rid of the red links this is fine Regards ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^"Talk"? 14:10, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I understand your point. I did not notice any of them being deleted yet. One was on AfD at one point and I added the infobox immediately. In any case, yes, my purpose is to first have articles for as many communes as possible, since I believe it increases the likelihood for other users to add info. As soon as a change is done to one of these stub articles that I have created, I am adding the template and pictures if there are any. Hope this helps. Cheers. olivier 14:16, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

OK this is fine. I began on Pas de Calais like yourself but half way through I though ah I may as well add the infobox as it saves my number of edits. I have often done it your way to rid of the red links for Tibet and several other places. I'm glad there is another editor who realises we have tens of thousands of French geo articles missing. I added a box to 3 or 4 of your new ones ALl the best ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^"Talk"? 14:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I noticed your work on the Pas-de-Calais communes, since most stub communes are on my watchlist. Do you know about Wikipedia:WikiProject French communes, which I have started quite a while ago, but which has been inactive since a while? May I also suggest that you use the "French commune" template. This is the one that you can find on 90% of the communes that have a template. You can have a look at the couple of changes that I did to your table at Laval-Saint-Roman. Let me know what you think Thanks! olivier 14:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of List of magazines

List of magazines, an article you created, has been nominated for deletion. We appreciate your contributions. However, an editor does not feel that List of magazines satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in the nomination space (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and the Wikipedia deletion policy). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of magazines and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of List of magazines during the discussion but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. B1atv 23:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Mazarin

A {{prod}} template has been added to the article Mazarin, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice explains why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may contest the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page. Also, please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. If you endorse deletion of the article, and you are the only person who has made substantial edits to the page, please tag it with {{db-author}}. Rocket000 06:43, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I have restored this page to an earlier version, as a redirect to Cardinal Mazarin. olivier 05:25, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Recent changes to Gers

Bonjour Olivier,

Could you take a bit of time to look at recent changes made by User:Gordito666 to Gers and related articles? I have already expressed my reservation to him/her about this usage, but received this reply. Merci, Kiwipete 01:12, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Olivier et Kiwipete,

Please refer to the quoted links on the Wikipedia page, you will see that les Gersois refer to their own department in the formal sense as 'le Gers', or department du Gers. Although on a map it may be referred to as simply 'Gers' it is usually referred to as 'le/the' and it is a locals way of knowing if you are a tourist/outsider by not referring as le/the Gers. Anuyway, I dont intend to incite a heated discussion, but welcome the opportunity to 'hash this out further' Please take a look at the local websites to gain insight into my point of view, and we can take it to the next step. Bon journee. Gordito666 03:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Your point is in fact correct, to the extent that ALL French departments and regions, and even the country itself are thus referred, as in "La France", "Les Bouches du Rhone", "Le Gard", "L'Ardeche", "La Lorraine", "L'Alsace", "L'Ile de France", etc. This is in not specific to "Le Gers". This being said, the name of "Bouches du Rhone" is "Bouches du Rhone", just like "La France" is in fact called "France". Same thing for nouns: the translation of "the man" is "l'homme", but it will appear as "homme" in a dictionary or encyclopedia entry. olivier 16:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Shalom!

My name is Shir-El too and I'm trying to expand and bring the Eilat page up to date. From the history and talk pages you have cared too, so please come and see what can be done even better. Thank you, Shir-El too 13:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Augustinian Monasteries

There appear to have been damaging changes to the Augustinian monasteries pages. Do you know where the listing of all the Czech, Spanish, German, Philippino, Irish etc monasteries (many linke to their own pages) have gone since the creation of the English page? I'm a bit shocked they all seem to have disappeared with the stroke of key. Noel (talk) 10:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Spam in Economic Community of the Great Lakes Countries

Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on Economic Community of the Great Lakes Countries, by another Wikipedia user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because Economic Community of the Great Lakes Countries is blatant advertising for a company, product, group, service or person that would require a substantial rewrite in order to become an encyclopedia article.

To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting Economic Community of the Great Lakes Countries, please affix the template {{hangon}} to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Feel free to contact the bot operator if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot, bearing in mind that this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion; it does not perform any nominations or deletions itself. To see the user who deleted the page, click here CSDWarnBot (talk) 15:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Garrigues

I am currently proposing that the Garrigues page should be replaced by the content now found on the Garrigues (disambiguation) page and the the material presently on the Garrigues page should be moved to a new page to be titled Les Garrigues, Catalonia If you have the time I would appreciate your comments on the Discussion page at Garrigues. I hope you will agree. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 19:51, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

See my comments and action on the discussion page, which has been moved to Talk:Garrigues (comarca). olivier 18:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)