User talk:Noraft/Archive 5

Rollback

Sure, I've look over your edits and you seem to know what you are doing, so I've given you rollback. Remember the rule of 'if someone might be confused about why this edit was rolled back, don't roll it back', or see WP:ROLL for the needlessly complicated version of that explanation :). Cheers, and let me know if you need any help. Prodego ^talk 00:04, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Blacklog drive - Newsletter?

Hi Noraft. I can see you are very busy but I thought it might be a good idea to send out a little newsletter to the persons listed at the backlog elimination drive, and give folks an update as to how it's going. I just thought it might help increase the level of participation. If you don't have time right now I would understand. --Diannaa ^TALK 16:19, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

That's a good idea. I could put that on participant pages pretty quickly with AutoWikiBrowser. Tell you what: I hereby deputize you as the Backlog Drive Communications Officer. If you'll write the update up for me, I'll use AWB to put it on all participant's pages. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 16:32, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

OK I just knew you had a staff... I just didn't realise it was me! :) I am going outside for a couple hours and will post it here this afterlunch. --Diannaa ^TALK 16:42, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Haha, thanks. I have a staff in real life and so I'm in the habit of delegating...also because giving people responsibility is the best way to train them to be leaders when they're ready. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 16:47, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Put me in, Coach. I'm ready to play.

Newsletter draft

GOCE backlog elimination drive chart Greetings from the Guild of Copy Editors Backlog Elimination Drive! We have now reached the halfway point, and here's what has happened so far. Requests Report - Good news! The number of special requests waiting to be edited has been reduced drastically, with almost all of the remaining items having editors committed to getting them done. Good work, people! Target Report - ɳorɑfʈ's initial target of reducing the backlog of articles for copy edit turned out to be unrealistic insane, so a new target was set: we hope to reduce the to backlog to less than 7,500 items in the queue by the end of the month. The number in the queue was 7,950 as of close of business yesterday. We now have some clear leaders in all three Gold Star categories, and many people have qualified for the various barnstars. Check out the charts and leaderboard here. If we "concentrate our firepower" we can wipe out Jan, Feb, and March 2008, meaning the drive will have cleared four months off the backlog queue. Please consider copyediting from one of these months. Rewards Report - We now have some clear leaders on the board in all three Gold Star categories, and many people have qualified for the various barnstars. It is not too late to participate, as it takes just 2,000 words (pre-edit) to qualify for a barnstar! Don't wait! Start participating today. Remember, the ultimate winner is Wikipedia. Notice to Participants - For those who have indicated that you will be working on certain articles on the drive page in your respective tally box, please ensure that you complete these copyedits as soon as possible. Thank you very much for your participation so far! - Coordinator: ɳorɑfʈ Talk! Co-coordinators: Diannaa TALK and S Masters (talk) This newsletter by Diannaa (writer) and SMasters (writer and typesetter). Thrown onto your doorstep by ɳorɑfʈ on a red Huffy bike.

OK that's all I could think of. Please feel free to edit/improve this draft before mailout. Thanks, Noraft. --Diannaa ^TALK 20:00, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

No, thank you. Its 4:38am here in Manila, and I'm still up, so after a period of unconsciousness, I'll fire up AWB and get this newsletter out. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 20:40, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Good call Diannaa! OK, I have added the GOCE Talk template, the progress graphs (which will update automatically when I do the next update of the picture files), and another few points which I wanted to add: 1) To remind those who have "booked" articles but have yet to make a start, and 2) Another point to those who have not yet participated. The leaderboard may put them off joining at this stage, so I hope this copy will let them know that they can still get something even if they join now. Feel free to copyedit it if you can improve on it. In addition, in terms of increasing participation, I feel that we can still get a few more new participants at this stage. However, this means that this newsletter must go out to all GOCE members, not just current participants. We're not going to get new people from the converted. :-) - S Masters (talk) 06:22, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, my AWB faulted during an update, so I've been pedaling around the neighborhood the old fashioned way. I got papers on the porches of all of the participants, and the general GOCE members up to my name. I'm not going to be able to do much more than that, however. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 08:01, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Gulfton, Houston

Hi! I took a look at this edit - The ref is there to say that it is in "Southwest Houston" as in it is supported by the Southwest Houston Chamber of Commerce. WhisperToMe (talk) 00:28, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Then its in the wrong place. The sentence was: Gulfton is a community in southwestern Houston, Texas, United States* that includes a 3.2 sq mi (8.3 km²) group of apartment complexes that primarily house Hispanic and immigrant populations. That reference should go where I added the asterisk. Placing it at the end of the sentence means that it supports the entire sentence, which it does not. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 01:18, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Substing Welcome Templates

Just a quick note, can you make sure you subst welcome templates when you add them to a users talk page? Thanks =] ·Add§hore· ^{Talk To Me!} 18:16, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Sure. Sorry about that. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 18:44, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Harris Theater (Chicago, Illinois)/archive1‎

Since you were involved in the last FAC within the Millennium Park WP:FT, I thought you might be interested in commenting at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Harris Theater (Chicago, Illinois)/archive1‎.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:39, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Copyedit

Hi Noraft. I've recently nominated the Van Morrison article His Band and the Street Choir as a featured article candidate, but the prose is not up to scratch. I was recommended that I ask you about copyrditing the article by User:Mlpearc. Would you be able to do this. If not that's ok. Cheers Kitchen roll (talk) 21:47, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I took a look at it and really don't see why Auntieruth55 thinks it needs a copyedit. I don't see the "prose ambiguities" mentioned. Maybe if that user can be a little more specific I can go in and make some improvements. I fear if I copyedit the article now, I'll miss what it is that Auntieruth55 is talking about. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 01:37, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Another editor's commented on the matter and given some examples. I'll correct the ones they've given, but I think my writing rambles on a lot and explains things one or two more times than is needed, or adds extra pointless words in a sentence not contributing to its meaning. If you could spot any more examples like the ones on the latest review, or any other improvements to the prose that'd be fab. Cheers Kitchen roll (talk) 19:21, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

GOCE flag up for deletion

Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2010 May 22#Template:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors

Mlpearc pull my chain Trib's 00:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Noraft, I don't know that much about banners, but if we decrease the size of the icon and are succinct in our message, it may be more acceptable. This is what I was referring to on the Template discussion. I do not care for the small=yes option, it looks like poo (trying to reform myself in public). If we just wrap it into the history then we lose the advertising dollars. I was surprised at the number of GOCE members who do not use it at all (I did a quick survey of the May edits). I believe that we need to keep the banner, so if there is a way to make it less "intrusive" but still effective (advertising, history, legitimacy, etc.) , we should try. Also as a caveat, we can't sign it with tildes, bummer, that would make it much easier to deploy. On another note, thank you for all you did with that storm I stepped into, I saw that you had elevated the issue and its resolution. Very Respectfully Bullock ✉ 23:18, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I see. I also think small=yes looks bad. Being more succinct is fine. I just want a full-width banner. I don't know why we can't sign it. I'll take a look at it and see what can be done with the code. I don't know how I "elevated" the issue...I just said what I thought, but thank you for the compliment all the same. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 23:52, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Full-width is the best choice, maybe 3/4 -- 1/2 height. "elevated" was in regards to the Ambrose article. Bullock ✉ 01:02, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh yeah. You're welcome. I've looked at that editor's edits since then, and he's treating people more respectfully, so that's good. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 01:05, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Please do not change the talk page comments of other editors

as you did with this edit. Dlabtot (talk) 16:47, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

That was an accident. My bad. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 16:51, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Drive

Thanks for leading the drive's effort, Noraft. It was a bunch of fun. :) fds^Talk 15:46, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Award

Can I just grab my shiny award for the GOCE backlog drive or will it be thrown on my driveway?--mono 21:44, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, you can grab it, but then it won't have the nice text that comes with it. For that, you have to wait for it to be thrown on your driveway. Or in your bushes. I sometimes miss. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 22:50, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Backlog Elimination Drive in the Signpost

Congratulations on the successful Backlog Elimination Drive. Would you like to feature both the Drive and the Guild of Copy Editors in the June 14 issue of the Signpost's WikiProject Report? It would be an excellent opportunity to show off the Drive's results (and the winning contributors) as well as provide an informative interview that could serve as a guide for other projects interested in conducting their own backlog elimination drives. -Mabeenot (talk) 23:17, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I'd love to, thanks! What do you need from me? ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 07:21, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I've put together some interview questions located here. Answer them in any way you like, and feel free to invite your fellow coordinators. I can also write an extended introduction section that includes the results of the drive, including your wonderful graphs. -Mabeenot (talk) 00:38, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Guild of Copy Editors backlog elimination drive

I think your idea for a backlog elimination drive for the GOCE was really good. It's exactly the kind of thing Wikipedia needs, and look at all we got done in just one month! Are you going to be co-ordinating a repeat event in the future? cymru lass ^{(hit me up)}⁄_{(background check)} 15:04, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Yep, starting July 1. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 07:22, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Awesome! I'll be in Montreal for the 2nd half of July, but I definitely plan on helping out during the first half of the month! cymru lass ^{(hit me up)}⁄_{(background check)} 20:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

User:Noraft/Sandbox/3

See {{Cite sign}}. Needs some polishing, I am going to leave comments on its talk page. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 03:54, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

It has now been moved, so I updated the link above. Thanks! Plastikspork _―Œ^(talk) 17:51, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

3RR

As I understand the rule, "An editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period." I don't have as much experience with that, however, so maybe take it to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring? Cool Hand Luke 13:23, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Editor Review

Hello, Noraft! I hace reviewed you. I hope my observations are helpful. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to leave them here, there, or on my talk page. PrincessofLlyr ^{royal court} 17:07, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Barnstar

	The Cleanup Barnstar
	For your copyediting efforts during the May 2010 Guild of Copy Editors Backlog Elimination Drive, editing 10 articles with a combined total of 10,982 words, I hereby award you this Cleanup Barnstar. Congratulations and thank you for all your hard work! --Diannaa TALK 02:57, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Barnstar for GOCE drive

		The Special Barnstar
		For your excellent work in creating and organizing the first ever GOCE backlog elimination drive, I present you the Special Barnstar, as it requires a lot of special effort to coordinate such a complex task. Thanks! Torchiest talk/contribs 05:18, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Very kind, thank you. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 08:55, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Elements of your behavior are not constructive

Your "Be nice," your wikistalking, and other behavior are not constructive, much like I warned you about before. They neither help build the encyclopedia, nor provide real impetus for editors to change whatever behavior you are taking issue with. They are however accusative and do not have anassumption of good faith. I'm here to tell you that continuing to communicate this way is going to mean you'll be spending more time defending your actions in a dispute resolution forum such as Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts or Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct and I'd rather see that time go to improving the encyclopedia. 75.2.209.226 (talk) 13:35, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

You're proving Noraft's point all too well... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 13:40, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Its okay. This IP address abandoned his account after he saw the RfC/U I was putting together in my sandbox. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 16:26, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Please

I come to ask you to seriously consider whether using AWB to cross post the same message to 120 editors (of whom at least one is indefinitely blocked) is really productive. AWB is meant as a maintenance tool and while I applaud your efforts to improve the encyclopaedia, spamming hundreds of editors with the same message is rather annoying. Perhaps I'm over-reacting, but I for one would appreciate it if you could carry on with your copyediting drive without taking up room on a talk page which is already very busy. Thanks, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:05, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Using AWB to cross-post many messages is absolutely fine (indeed we have community-approved bots doing so). Juliancolton (talk) 15:07, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

The only people getting this message are members of the Guild of Copy Editors, who are listed on the GOCE's participation page. Members of WikiProjects generally consent to (and expect) messages from that WikiProject that are related to said WikiProject's business. I'm sorry if me communicating with fellow members of the Guild of Copy Editors offends you. And no, we can't carry on our copyediting drive if nobody knows about it, which is what this effort is designed to do: inform our members about an event that may be of interest to them. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 15:13, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Just noticed that less than three months ago, HJ Mitchell put his name on the peer review general copyediting list. But he doesn't want to hear from the GOCE asking for copyediting help? Confused. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 16:20, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

• As middle ground, perhaps some way for GOCE members to opt-out of such notices should be devised. –xeno^talk 15:11, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
  • If I get multiple complaints, I'll consider that. We did the same thing for the May drive, and nobody complained that time. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 15:14, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Apparently I was invited (today) after the drive was over. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE 16:22, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

There is a second drive coming, in case the invite wasn't clear. Torchiest ^talk/_contribs 16:43, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I was reading up on copyediting and I'm not sure I'm that good. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE 13:21, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Quoted from the invite on your userpage: "Hi, I'd like to invite you to participate in the Guild of Copy Editors July 2010 Backlog Elimination Drive." Regarding your fitness for copyediting, the Guild of Copy Editors is more than willing to mentor new folks who are interested in helping. New copy editors can ask experienced ones to double-check their work before removing the {{copyedit}} tag. Please join our drive. We'll help you. I'll make myself personally available to you if you need anything. Just let me know. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 13:45, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

July Elimination Drive

I'll be there, Noraft. Thanks for the heads-up. fds^Talk 18:26, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Awesome. Don't forget to sign up in the participants section. Did you know Jimmy Wales signed up? ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 16:24, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

St. Michael's Cathedral, Qingdao back up

Thanks for the heads up - I will take another look at the article, though it may take me a few days. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 20:23, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you very much for signing up for the July Backlog Elimination Drive! We hope to double the number of participants this round, so we would appreciate it if you could send out an invitation to any friends who may be interested in participating (other than Guild members - they were all invited). Once again, thanks for your support! Diannaa ^TALK 01:59, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Noraft, I will place this message under your invitation on the talk page of the people who have signed up. Diannaa ^TALK 01:59, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. Have spread word through all non-wiki networks for getting more members. We really need to get the copy-edit act together. In response to my reply to Jimmy Wales' tweet about lazarus effect page, I urged him to let new page creation be, and do some copy-editing! And as his latest tweet shows, he is in. How about thanking him on his talk page which will improve visibility for the project. prashanthns (talk) 17:39, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Yep, been working on it. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 00:21, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah... about this... I don't want any credit... I just wanna do it! Is that ok? RoryReloaded 21:57, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Go for it. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 00:21, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Jclemens RfC

I just wanted to take a minute and say thank you for a good debate. Cheers. Movementarian (Talk) 10:18, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, and you too! ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 11:51, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Word Count

How exactly do you measure word count for the copyedit-backlog-deletion-fest '10? And what does copyediting entail? 2D Maestro ^{Serbia Suburbia} 12:07, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Good question! There are instructions on the copyedit-backlog-deletion-fest page, but I will reproduce them here for you. It is done with a script you install. It is super easy and doesn't require a shred of computer knowledge.

To add the script that calculates page size:

1. If you have never changed your skin, go to your vector.js page.
   • If you are not using the default skin or are unsure, go to Special:Preferences and click on the Appearance tab. In the very first section, Skin, locate the skin that is selected and click on the Custom JS next to your selected skin.
2. Click Edit on the page that opened.
3. Add the following code to the page and save it: {{subst:js|User:Dr_pda/prosesize.js}}
4. Reload the cache.
   • If you are using Internet Explorer, press Ctrl-F5
   • If you are using Firefox/Safari for Windows, hold down Shift while clicking Reload (or press Ctrl-Shift-R); for Mac, press Command-R.
   • If you are using Opera/Konqueror, press F5.
5. To test it out go to any random article. If you look under the Toolbox menu on the far left of the screen there will be a link for Page size. The backlog elimination drive uses the number of words listed under Prose size (text only).
6. Go copy edit!

So after you add that, it appears on the left side of the screen under "Toolbox" If you have any problems let me know and I'll be glad to help. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 12:14, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I forgot to answer your second good question! Copyediting is to make formatting changes and improvements to an article to make it clear, correct, concise, comprehensible, and consistent, that is: make it say what it means, and mean what it says. In Wikipedia, this is done via the Manual of Style, often referred to as "MoS". (previous description adopted from Copy Editing and Wikipedia:How to copy-edit). ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 12:17, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Not to sound like a whiner, but do I have to change to vector? I don't like it, but can I switch back to MonoBook after the "fest" is over? And about step 4, what if you're using Google Chrome? 2D Maestro ^{Serbia Suburbia} 12:20, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

You don't sound like a whiner! Yeah, just add the script to monobook.js instead of vector. It works with monobook just fine. I don't know about Chrome, actually. Might want to google for instructions on clearing your cache, or check out the help file. I suspect it is still F5 though. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 13:48, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Question

Sorry for being dense, but I have a question about your copy-editing drive. It says: "Log completed copyedits in the Running Totals section." And I see people are listing word counts. Does that mean if we copy-edit a 5,000-word article, we get to add 5,000 words to our running total, regardless of how much or how little work was involved; or have I misunderstood as usual? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 18:02, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

That's correct. Some articles are easier than others, but generally, the {{copyedit}} tag is not added unless there are significant problems. Also, even the "easy" articles add to the backlog, so those tags still need to be cleared. Finally, everyone has equal access to the backlog, and there are a finite number of "easy" articles," so if you find one, grab it, because there aren't that many and they go fast. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 23:23, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks

	<font=3> Thanks for your support and kind words - Harris Theater (Chicago, Illinois) is now a Featured Article! TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) and Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:03, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Prosesize

I don't really know what to ask, only to say "argh, why isn't it working!?" My style sheet is here. Also, I tried to make the peanut butter and jelly sandwich and don't understand what to do now that the jelly is on my left foot and the butter on my right. A Danger (talk) to computers. 04:49, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

One question: Did you stick with monobook after wikipedia switched to vector? If not, you need to add the code to vector.js. You know, I maybe shouldn't made the PB&J comment, which was intended to convey that it was a simple process...because everyone who ends up having trouble with the script says something about their ability to make PB&J. lol. At least you were funny about it. Most are defensive ("And PS I do know how to make a PB&J!"). ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 04:54, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Jclemens' questions, and my answers

A couple of questions for you:

• Why do you need "room to maneuver" in the RfC? An inapt choice of words, perhaps? Please feel free to explain. Jclemens (talk) 02:45, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

• Inapt? Not at all. Do you think I don't know you follow me around Wikipedia? I'm fully aware that anything I say may be used against me in a court of public opinion. I haven't notified you that this section is here, and yet you're reading it: I didn't need to tell you. But to answer your question, I needed room to maneuver because closing the RfC while my first question is still pending doesn't give me enough time to expose you to everyone, which is what I was aiming to do. I saw that your best line of argumentation (best for your image, which you seem to be concerned about) was to say "You're right, that was uncivil, sorry," but that you were unwilling to do that, so instead you showed everyone 1) that you were unwilling to own up to all your mistakes (just the ones you can blame on "I didn't know what the community consensus was"); 2) that you act in an uncivil manner when aroused in protracted disputes; and 3) that you wikilawyer and evade answering questions. And now all this is on record, so the next time you abuse an editor and they take you to WQA or RfC/U, the pattern will already be established, and the "he had a bad day" defenses won't surface. You've used up whatever freebie you had. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 05:52, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

• Were you ever planning on actually linking to the WQA which you started about me, which was roundly ignored? Jclemens (talk) 02:45, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

• I get the impression that you think that situation means there is some sort of conflict of interest. I think linking to that would have further harmed your image, really. I linked to WP:OUTCOMES which had the bulk of our dispute in it. Feel free to post that link to the RFC/U talk page. There's nothing in it I'm ashamed of; I was CIVIL throughout. Were you? ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 05:52, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

• Do you think INVOLVED should apply to users to the same extent it applies to administrators? e.g., Should an editor who had previously been counseled for revert-warring and reported for suspected sockpuppetry be allowed to participate in a review of unrelated actions conducted by the administrator who had taken those actions? If allowed, who should those former interactions be disclosed to all parties participating in the RfC? Jclemens (talk) 02:45, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

• Few different responses to this:

1) I wasn't "counseled" by you. I think you should look up the definition of that word. Those involved in an editing dispute are there as editors. They are also parties to a dispute. One party in a dispute does not "counsel" the other. If you thought I needed "counseling" you should have found a neutral administrator. The checkuser you found didn't agree with you about your accusations. And a neutral administrator likely wouldn't have taken your side, with all the bad faith you were throwing around, IMO;

2) If accusations by an administrator in a former dispute were grounds for disqualifying someone from participating in a current RfC, then an administrator who commonly accused editors of various violations would be well insulated from criticism, wouldn't he/she? All the people he/she had maligned wouldn't be able to say anything.

3) I think the nature of the RfC works perfectly: All edit histories are available. If one editor has some crackpot ideas, or bears a grudge, this is easy for everyone to see. However, if multiple editors are requesting sanctions at an RfC/U, then the normative function of the group takes over. Even if not in the majority, that group will be noticed, heard, and hard to dismiss. Your case is a good example. When it was Snottywong only, it was a little flash in the pan. Then I got involved, stopped the early close, and presented my evidence. My involvement had almost run its course when Verbal got involved, and his questions, which you provided less-than-satisfactory answers for, pretty much ran you off.

4) As mentioned, I linked to WP:OUTCOMES where you accused me of all sorts of violations. Nobody in your RfC suggested that my opinion should count less than anyone else's; and finally

5) "a review of unrelated actions"? You must have missed my central thesis in the RfC/U: The actions that resulted in your RfC are directly related to your actions in our dispute, because they both stem from the same disregard for WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF, which is a trait of yours in protracted disputes. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 05:52, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Copy editing articles

HI

I have started on some articles from the 1998 list as well as from the U listing and then noticed your comment to Enigma about tally

Is there not a bot which updates the lists or do we have to do it manually ?

• Sabotage (Stargate Universe)
• Ukrainian Exchange
• Unexpected Ai
• Zolotov dynasty‎‎

thanks...Chaosdruid (talk) 08:47, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

There is not a bot, but also you do not have to do it manually. I'll explain. The {{copyedit}} tag assigns every article to Category:Wikipedia articles needing copy edit, and if the tag includes a date (all should, and almost all do), it is also put into a month/year category as well. The {{Progress box}} template simply lists the total articles in each month/year category. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 08:57, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I am assuming that means "no there's not a bot and no you don't have to do it manually"

I know it's probably a bit presumptive but would you have time to give the article Ramzi Yousef a quick look over. I have done quite a lot of work on it and really want to know if I am along the right lines before doing any more really big articles.

I will be finished on it in about 10 minutes before continuing with a "main article link" from it that I had to change to sort the pages out.

I am, unfortunately, one of those people who needs a pat on the head (or slap with a trout) to be reassured I am working properly (or not) :¬)

Chaosdruid (talk) 10:38, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with seeking supervision when doing something new. I took a look at the article. You're awesome with citations. Your prose copyediting, while usually grammatically correct, has a tendency to take active clauses and make them passive; active is usually preferred. To give you specific examples, I'll go back through that article and undo some edits where that and other issues occur, and you can get a feel for the issues. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 11:13, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, it isn't letting me because of intermediate revisions. Later, when I have more time, I'll go through and pull out a couple diffs, then explain the stylistic issues, if you're interested. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 11:17, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I certainly would be - and thanks for the sweetener before the slap :¬)

I have to go out for the rest of the day but should be back on in about 5 hours - would you mind dropping me a line on my talk page so I know you have responded and I can get back here to look

Thanks...Chaosdruid (talk) 11:53, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I've opened a school, just for you! User talk:Noraft/Copyediting school. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 03:00, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

That's a very good idea, and I could see it leading to some kind of Copyedit peer review system where more experienced copyeditors look over the shoulder of new ones who are seeking feedback.--~TPW 03:07, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Woohoo ! only pupil - I can take any toy I want without fighting over it :¬)
Thanks for the time you have taken over this and I think it is a good idea to start a mentoring scheme.

I have commented on your comments in the \copyeditingschool page and rearranged the really bad edit I made in the "smokescreen" sentence in the article.

Chaosdruid (talk) 08:40, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I do as well. And to further mentor you, I'm going to task you with starting the school, and I'll help you get it going. You'll pitch the idea, recruit some "teachers" and the students will come. You can be the first alumnus. I'm sure the GOCE will love the idea. (It was your idea!) ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 04:41, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Ambulatory

The height of the aisles has no effect whatsoever on whether they function as ambulatories. The thing that makes a difference is the width. If they are narrow, then they are a walkway ie ambulatory. If they are wide, then they might function as naves and have seating. German Hall churches have very high wide aisles, but these were not built during the Romanesque period. (I can't think of any Baroque Hallenkirche either, off hand, but there probably are). This arrangement is absolutely normal. See St. Michael's Church, Hildesheim. I would omit the mention of them acting like ambulatories because it's pointless. That is what aisles are for! Amandajm (talk) 14:38, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Well done! :-) Amandajm (talk) 14:44, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! Regarding your comment about ambulatories, here's my dilemma: my source, which is a German/English (both languages) book on German architectural transfer, published by a German writer, has that sentence almost verbatim ("function more like ambulatories" IS verbatim). I assume the writer is an expert. You also make sense (i.e. I can see your point). If I drop the source, then I can't mention the ambulatories at all, as I don't have another source that talks about them. So I have to find a creative way to word this that doesn't put words in the source's mouth... ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 14:53, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I see. That bit that goes around the apse is definitely an ambulatory. My suggestion is that you forget my objection and quote your German source. It isn't wrong. It's just a bit misleading.

I have also written into the article that the spires are Rhenish helms. That link doesn't work, but it will, in a little while, because I took a look at the article on spires, and I'm currently adding a section. Now, where do you find sources to back my description of the interior being Classical, not Romanesque, and the spires being Rhenish helms? Your German writer ought to have commented on both those things!

Amandajm (talk) 15:49, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right. The cathedral only got a one page treatment in a 200 page book that dealt with German architecture all over the world, unfortunately. I'm excited to see new information about the interior being Classical and the spires being Rhenish helms! I'd be even more excited if I had sources. LOL. You know, I have a lot more pictures of the cathedral's interior, if you'd be interested in seeing them. I've got pictures of the high altar, the cathedra, murals, lots of others. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 15:57, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Have you uploaded any others? Did you take them yourself? Amandajm (talk) 11:21, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Have not uploaded any others. Yes, I took them all myself. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 11:45, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

FA nom for Treaty of Ciudad Juarez

Hi, just wanted to let you know that I nominated Treaty of Ciudad Juárez per the suggestion you made during the GA review [1].radek (talk) 20:19, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Awesome! When I get some time, I'll come review. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 20:29, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

That name of yours

Is it "no raft" or "nor aft?"--~TPW 11:47, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

No Raft. Comes from a book called No River to Cross, No Raft to Find ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 12:01, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Question: back log drive

Have a small (Dumb) question, I recently opened my Public alternate account, my dumb question is can I edit in both accounts for the drive and log my complete articles under my main, or both, or none, or I can Only edit for the drive under the account I've signed up with (this one is my guess), but the only dumb question is "the one NOT asked" ? I asked Diannaa Here and just wanted to double check with you, Thanks Mlpearc pull my chain 'Tribs 16:48, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

One user can claim credit for all edits made on all accounts. Just log them all under the same account name. And thanks for letting us know. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 00:28, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and I have a question: Why do people open alternate accounts for editing from different locations? Some people have alternate accounts for their mobile devices, others have public accounts (like you). I'm curious as to the benefit. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 00:29, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I use my Public account when I am editing anywhere away from my home, due to "wifi", public computers (usually the Library), if anyone "hackers" get my password over a wireless network or "spyware" installed on a public system and so forth, they get access to a small account I can just throw away, instead of my hard worked main account (sorry it took so long to reply I've been busy in ACC Irc). Mlpearc pull my chain 'Tribs 01:48, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the barnstar

Hi Noraft, thanks very much for the barnstar - I am glad to know my review of the cathedral article is useful and am also very glad tosee how nicely it is shaping up. Enjoyed reading aqbout your work in the Signpost too. Thanks again, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 18:43, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

A modest proposal

I'll trade ya? Scartol • Tok 22:35, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Love to. Great idea. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 01:29, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Also, note that graphics (eg. for fixed items) are generally not preferred in FAC discussions, since they slow down the page loading speed. Cheers! Scartol • Tok 22:37, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

They say that, but Wikipedia:Don't worry about performance tells me otherwise... ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 01:29, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not just performance. There's a template limit on a page, and we've run into problem in the past that parts of the archive log don't display because there are too many templates. We highly discourage their use. Plus, they also distract Sandy and I when we are trying to process the FAC queue. Karanacs (talk) 16:54, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I remove mine after the comments are struck. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 16:58, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry about the delay. I will review the article you nominated, very soon. Thanks for your patience! Scartol • Tok 11:01, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

He's/she's back

T: FYI, please see the last few postings in this thread. Thanks. Centpacrr (talk) 12:05, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

pics

It's a matter of layout. You have a space in the history section that is large enough for a vertical photo. You have a space in the ordinaries section that is only large enough for a small horizontal photo. Even the tombstone pic is a bit two large. The tombstone is equally appropriate where it is.

One of the problems of layout is that people are viewing on different shaped screens. Apart from those people who access wikipedia on mobiles (which I don't think we really ought to consider when doing page layout (it's just too difficult all together), the hardest shaped screen to fit is a wide shallow screen like on most modern laptops. I have a screen that shape, but I can adjust what I'm viewing to a squarer shape. If your screen is squarish, the it looks as if there is heaps of room for photos, because the text stretches further down the screen. — Amandajm — continues after insertion below I'm on a wide shallow screen (laptop). ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 15:33, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Anyway, I put the cathedra into the history as being of fairly general relevance. — Amandajm — continues after insertion below

That cathedra is new, the old one was most likely destroyed, so "history" isn't really that relevant. Only two "ordinary butts" have rested upon it. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 15:33, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

You simply can't always match pics to text as well as you would like. The other thing I must warn you is that there are a number of editors who always rip through articles reducing everything to the smallest size possible. It's better to be a jump ahead. They are likely to reduce your two beautiful vertical interiors to "upright" format, which is really very small, but if they are already set at thumbnail, they might be left alone. Amandajm (talk) 15:24, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, actually I already had to fight off a wild uprighter attack. Thanks again for your assistance. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 15:33, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

New essay!

Wikipedia:Citing textbooks is ready to be displayed on the portal! Kayau Voting IS evil 15:25, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Congrats! Go ahead and add it. I'm not going to support the portal alone anymore. I'm suspending work on it until someone else sees value in it and wants to work on it. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 19:57, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Tireless spin at 100px

Hi! and at [2]. I checked both FF and IE. Are you sure it doesn't spin? —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 19:41, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Huh, that's odd. It didn't spin at 100 before. Spins now, though, so sorry about the revert! ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 19:52, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

NP. Probably WP hadn't rerendered it yet. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 19:54, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to ask for help directly...

Hi again

I wouldn't normally bug someone like this but I had a question which has not been answered Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Guild_of_Copy_Editors#Tags and now another one. Maybe everyone is out in the sun or watching the football - or maybe just recovering from the weekend :¬)

If you have a chance would you mind replying. I have not forgotten the school idea but had to do a lot of work on a couple of articles which are at an impasse now so can get on with other stuff for a while

Chaosdruid (talk) 21:27, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Don't ever, EVER apologize for asking for help. Now say you're sorry. (answered on the GOCE talk page) ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 21:41, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Appeal

Hello! My name is Esuzu and I am a quite new editor here on Wikipedia. For the latest months I have been working on Nobel Prize which is currently a FAC. I have never been very much of a copyeditor myself so I have largely relied on others to copyedit it for me and according to myself the prose is now of FA class. However, some at the FAC page criticise the article's prose so I looked through it again but I can't find any errors (might because I am not a native speaker). So I am now trying to get some additional help in getting the article copyedited once more. I noticed that you are a member of the Guild of Copy Editors so I wonder if you could/have time to/(want) help me with this?

Thanks in advance, Esuzu (talk • contribs) 22:27, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Sure, I'll take a look. Give me 48 hours, though. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk!

Thank you very much! Looking forward to your edits. Esuzu (talk • contribs) 07:37, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

It seems like another editor helped me instead. So unless you don't want to there is no need for you to copyedit the article. Thank you for your time! Esuzu (talk • contribs) 21:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh! I'm sorry! Glad you got the help from somewhere. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 23:51, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Editor '75

A posting at AN/I[3] that you might find of interest (given the RfC you were constructing). He's now using new IDs, but behavior unchanged.Don't know if I've constructed the AN/I posting effectively, or am following ideal WP protocol. Hopefully will result in some form of effective admin intervention. Eurytemora (talk) 00:03, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

That is of interest. See the love-note he left at the top of my talk page? I'll be following the AN/I. Thank you. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 00:09, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations

		The Original Barnstar
		Given with respect and admiration to Noraft on the occasion of St. Michael's Cathedral, Qingdao being promoted to Featured Article and for all of your hard work and tireless efforts getting it there, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:39, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Hey, thanks! ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 03:54, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I too meant to drop a note of congratulations on this last night, but got distracted trying to figure out the note at the bottom of the FAC.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:12, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Four Award

		Four Award
		Congratulations! You have been awarded the Four Award for your work from beginning to end on St. Michael's Cathedral, Qingdao.

Great work! LittleMountain5 15:47, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Congrats

Good work on your Four Award. In case you weren't aware, that also makes you eligible for a triple crown, which you can submit your self-nomination for here. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 18:25, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I was looking at that, but if I do that, then I'll have three awards all from one article, which seems like a little much, so I think I'll wait until I'm eligible for the Imperial Triple Crown Jewels, and then self-nom. Thanks for the congrats! ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 00:23, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh, BTW, I'm in an argument here on what category St. Michael's Cathedral, Qingdao belongs in under FA: Architecture or Religion. For the life of me I can't seem to get anyone to comment. I've proposed that if an article on a religious structure spends more time on the structure, it should go in Architecture. If it spends more time on the congregation, or other religious aspects, it should go in Religion. If you'd care to comment, that would be appreciated. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 00:27, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

My opinion would be that unless the building itself is an object of worship, it should probably go in architecture, rather than religion. Similarly, I'd put the Pentagon in architecture, rather than military, etc. While the purpose for which a notable building is intended is clearly part of its development, history, and notability... at the end of the day, it's a structure. — Jclemens — continues after insertion below

Mind if I move your comment over to the relevant talk page? ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 02:59, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

As far as the Crown goes? There have been plenty of single-article noms, and it can take a while for someone to review the nominations, so don't be surprised if when you do actually nom yourself it doesn't get handled as speedily as the Four Award. Jclemens (talk) 00:48, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't realize that. Thanks! ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 02:59, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

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Read this Signpost in full · Single-page · Unsubscribe · EdwardsBot (talk) 21:46, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Review

I will be glad to review it, but it will probably take me a few days. Thanks for asking, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 01:39, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! Take your time. It will still be there... ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 03:41, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Editing school

Hi

Sorry I haven't been in touch but have been a bit busy with a couple of wikiproject items which needed fixing

I have been thinking about the editing school

How about three stages. I was thinking it might be an idea to use articles that have gone through the GA process...

1 A general look through some of those exercises that you sent to me for the basics

2 A couple of articles to attempt from alreasy completed copyedits to compare their results to

3 A more detailed set of tasks including articles as GA candidates to compare their results to the final GA passed article

The general proinciple is the way we were taught at Distributed Proofreaders.

Chaosdruid (talk) 23:05, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good, but I'm not going to have time to take this on as a project. You might want to talk to some of the other GOCE regulars, and show them what we did. They might pick it up and run with it. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 14:50, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Get over here!

Hello, Noraft. You have new messages at SuperHamster's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 04:17, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Spot checks

Hi Noraft, just a note to say that your work in organising the backlog drive is much appreciated. Just one thing: I do think it's important to get the spot-checks rolling, and to present reports of any patterns you find that could assist copy-editors. The scheme relies very much on quality, whereas the prizes are awarded for quantity. This can work if quality is stressed as important. A few specific points may alert competitors to your expectations. Tony (talk) 04:43, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I need to appoint a couple spot-checkers or ask my current two deputies to help out with that. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 14:52, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Request for help (again lol)

Hi

I have just done an extremely extensive edit on Mobile phones on aircraft.

I appreciate you will be very busy today so can you recommend someone that I may be able to request a lookover of it from if you are not able.

I think it may be ready for a GA nomination after a little touch up and if no problems are found with it. It is stable and appears ref'd ok (I am inexperienced at this so don't laugh if I am completely wrong lol)

thanks :¬)

Chaosdruid (talk) 10:37, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Why don't you ask on the GOCE talk page? There are lots of folks there that would be happy to look it over for you. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 14:57, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Chart Error Mesg - Request for Help

Hi Mr.Noraft,
First of all I'm Sorry if i'm writing in a wrong place. I'm Very new to Wikipedia.
This is my First Wikipedia Article.
It's my long time desire to write a Quality Article for Wikipedia.
I have spend many days in learning & understanding codes & rules of Wiki'P before posting my article. One of our fellow wikipedian (Chevy) has reviewed my article & helped me improve my article.
I tried Chart in my article.
Almost everything is working fine , but at the top of the chart i'm getting a kind of error mesg "Template:Chart/celltTemplate:Chart/celltTemplate:Chart/cellbTemplate:Chart/cellbTemplate:Chart/celltTemplate:Chart/cellbTemplate:Chart/celltTemplate:Chart/celltTemplate:Chart/cellbTemplate:Chart/cellb".
please have review my article & provide your 'valuable feedback'.'Pls help me..' Raj6644 (talk) 04:52, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I took a look at it, but I have no experience with {{chart}}. Usually when I have a problem with a template, I ask on the template's talk page. If that doesn't work, I look at the edit history of the template, and ask one or two editors that have experience editing the template. Give those options a try, and see if you can't find someone with more expertise than me to take a look at it and tell you what is wrong. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 14:55, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I learnt the codes myself & i tried it in my 1st Article. But i'm able to succeed 99% only. Anyway, Thank you ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! for your Assistance. Raj6644 (talk) 05:15, 2 July 2010 (UTC)