User talk:Mtopper73

August 2023

Welcome to Wikipedia. We appreciate your contributions, but in one of your recent edits to Get It On (T. Rex song), it appears that you have added original research, which is against Wikipedia's policies. Original research refers to material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and personal experiences—for which no reliable, published sources exist; it also encompasses combining published sources in a way to imply something that none of them explicitly say. Please be prepared to cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. You can have a look at the tutorial on citing sources. Thank you. DonIago (talk) 16:03, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's odd that my contribution was considered "original research" without citation, since I was merely stating that "Get It On" was the only top 10 US hit the group had--something that is already stated almost identically in the "chart performance" section of the article ("becoming the band's only major US hit") with no references apparently required for that statement. I was merely repeating what was said there (with apparently no issues) at the top of the article, to stress its importance to the group's career. A simple look at the Wiki T. Rex discography page will also show that "Get It On" was the band's only top 10 US hit. This is not a controversial or disputed statement, nor one for which a lot of research is required. If I add the comment back on, what reference should I use? Would I be allowed to reference Wikipedia's own T. Rex discography page? There's another book I could reference as well, Cliff McLenehan's "Marc Bolan: A Chronology", would that do? Mtopper73 (talk) 21:22, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for bringing your concerns to me. I missed the statement in the "chart performance" section; that should be sourced as well since nothing else in the article appears to support it (unless I've missed something else?). Wikipedia pages are not acceptable as references per WP:CIRCULAR, but if information at those pages is cited, you may be able to copy those citations. The book sounds like it would be acceptable to me. DonIago (talk) 02:07, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

45cat.com

Hi! Just wanted to make sure you're aware 45cat.com has been judged an unreliable source as it is user-generated. See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Albums/Sources#Unreliable_sources. Doctorhawkes (talk) 03:35, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The "Strange Brew" record is ALSO listed as a June 2, 1967 release on rateyourmusic.com. Is that considered a reliable source? I see so many sources being used, including in the very page for "Strange Brew" here (ie. various book bios), which are far less reliable than either of those two sites. Also, simple logic tells one the release date is June 2. All discographies list its release date as June. The first entrance of "Strange Brew" on the UK chart was for the week ending June 14, 1967. That means its release date would have to be either June 2 or June 9 (UK singles were only released on Fridays). However, it CAN'T be June 9 because that would be too late for it to make the June 14 chart. In addition, four other singles whose release dates were June 2 (Cliff, Cilla Black, Small Faces, etc.) all made their chart debut on June 14, the same as "Strange Brew". This, plus the fact that 45cat and rateyourmusic also list June 2, I think is plenty of evidence. What, exactly would be considered a reliable source for the release date? 45cat should be good enough, however, no matter if it's user-generated, because they get their info directly from official sources like record company sheets, trade papers, etc. Mtopper73 (talk) 06:32, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you think 45cat.com is a reliable source, you should discuss that at the link I gave above. I doubt you'll have much luck, though. They also list what are considered reliable sources. Did you have a look? Doctorhawkes (talk) 11:37, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

T. Rex (album)

Could you add a source to these quotes, are these excerpts of reviews taken for a book ? You can answer me on my talk page. Woovee (talk) 02:58, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Which quotes are you referring to? Is this for the 1970 "T. Rex" album you are talking about? I can definitely add solid sources to a quote if I haven't already, but I need to know specifically which quotes in the article, so I can note the appropriate source. Mtopper73 (talk) 03:45, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I would need to know the publishing date for the NME review of the 1970 T. Rex album, was there a title for that review?

Did you read all these reviews through this book McLenahan, Cliff (2019). Marc Bolan: 1947-1977 A Chronology. Helter Skelter Books.?

if you don't know the publishing date for the NME review , one can add this book reference as a source.

Someone wrote on the Dandy in the Underworld wiki article that the album received a four out of five star review in Sounds (magazine) but there isn't any quote included in the Critical Reception section. if there is an excerpt of this review mentioned in the book, could you add it on wiki? - that would give a plus to the article.

I have just managed to locate the publishing date for the Melody Maker review on Rocksbackpages.com. Woovee (talk) 04:37, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The NME review with Nick Logan calling the album "immensely enjoyable" is indeed found in the McLenahan book--I can add in the book as a reference to the quote if you like. As for "Dandy", in checking McLenahan I do also see the Sounds review there--I can add in a quote from that review as well on that album's critical reception section. I also see that the NME review for "Dandy" in that section says "citation needed" next to it, so I can put McLenahan as the citation there as well. (I have to admit, just for the record, that the McLenahan 1947-77 Chronology is the absolute definitive, most exhaustive and accurate Marc Bolan reference work--thank god it exists.) Mtopper73 (talk) 06:02, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you can do that and also include quotes of the NME, Record Mirror at the Tanx article, that would be helpful. When looking at the booklet of the Tanx remastered cd, I learnt that it was well received; but there wasn't any quote mentioned. Those Marc Bolan related articles, need to be enriched. I entirely did the work of research in the legacy section of the T. Rex article years ago, I am sure that a lot of readers didn't know how much Marc Bolan was revered by younger musicians, this was/is an invitation to discover his less known material. Woovee (talk) 02:43, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK, sure! It's Christmas and all, so give me a day or two to get all that done, but I absolutely would love to help flesh out those articles. I had spent time a few months back fleshing out the Tyrannosaurus Rex album articles using information from McLenahan, and had planned to move on to T. Rex stuff but got sidetracked. Your request came at the perfect time! Happy holidays! Mtopper73 (talk) 03:14, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Paytress Says Four

Possibly this text is in his earlier book 20th Century Boy but he says "Great Horse was one of four tracks recorded with Took which were overdubbed".Romomusicfan (talk) 08:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I actually re-edited my edit to provide a better explanation for the reversion. When I saw your revision, I went to Paytress's "The Rise and Fall of a 20th Century Superstar" and since that's the later updated biography and does not contain that sentence you quote, there's probably a reason it was deleted from the earlier version. Also, Cliff McLenahan's "1947-77 Chronology" which is the most detailed and accurate look at the studio sessions mentions 6 songs recorded in April/May '69, only 2 of which made the album. Mtopper73 (talk) 08:07, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see you reverted it back to your revision. I don't want to make a huge deal out of it since it's not the end of the world, but McLenahan's book should take priority here--besides, the statement in the earlier Paytress bio you quote does not even mention which 4 songs, only "Great Horse". McLenahan's gives specific info on the recording dates and which songs were recorded on which dates. There were 8 total (you count the Spires" single), just 2 of which made the album. Mtopper73 (talk) 08:14, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The earlier Paytress book specifically says four tracks got overdubbed. I have used that reference for the figure of four and Cliff for the identification of Wind Cheetah and Great Horse (Paytress also mentions Great Horse). The only issue of dispute is whether a third and fourth track have their origins in the Took sessions - something Cliff does not categorically deny. Therefore I have used both sources. P.S. sorry about the edit clash, I think we were both editing at the same time.Romomusicfan (talk) 08:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But Cliff *does* categorically deny it if you look at what he wrote about those sessions (as I posted above). Anyways, I'm not going to push this any further and you can leave it the way you want it, I'm just noting my objection. I trust McClenahan more than Paytress, especially since his research on the sessions is so much more detailed. Mtopper73 (talk) 08:29, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want a back-and-forth revision war to start here LOL, so I posted a little explanation of the clash of references (Paytress vs. McClenahan) on the album's talk page for anyone interested. Mtopper73 (talk) 08:45, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is what McClenahan says about the spring 1969 sessions, all at Trident Studios:

April 11, 1969: 7 takes of "Rumbling Spires" and 5 takes of "Do You Remember"

April 29, 1969: 3 takes of "Abyssinia" and 4 takes of "Wind Cheetah"

May 22, 1969: 2 takes of "Ill Starred Man" and 2 takes of Demon Queen"

May 28, 1969: 2 takes of "Great Horse' and 2 takes of "Blessed Wild Apple Girl"

As you can see, only "Great Horse" and "Wind Cheetah" made A Beard Of Stars. No other songs are listed. Paytress's books--both older and newer editions--do not go into this great of detail. Mtopper73 (talk) 08:25, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen various other sources which quote various tracks for the other songs including Lofty Skies and Find A Little Wood. There is also one take of Organ Blues which has a sound on it similar to Took's "fonofiddle" (one string violin with telephone bell attacked to give a droning sound.) Romomusicfan (talk) 08:48, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I must say, it's actually quite nice to be debating esoteric Bolan trivia with a fellow fanboy! I still think McLenehan's book is easily the most up-to-date (latest edition 2019) and the most exhaustively detailed reference one can currently use. Other books may make guesses about what songs were recorded when (your guess about the fonofiddle is intriguing, but it is still only a guess) but McLenehan clearly had access to the studio logs and tapes and gives one the specific dates, studios, number of takes, what those takes sounded like, etc. He's the Mark Lewisohn of the Bolan universe. I'd take his book over a bio published all the way back in 1992 (of which Paytress's later bio leaves that sentence out entirely). Mtopper73 (talk) 08:58, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, just as a sidenote, why the hell did that version of "Organ Blues" make the album? It's so slow and plodding, pretty much the only song on the album I usually skip. The faster outtakes of it are far more exciting. I'm going to have to re-hear them and see if I can spot a fonofiddle (although it could be Bolan, not Took, playing it--it doesn't sound like a hard instrument to learn to play). Mtopper73 (talk) 09:02, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Fonofiddle version has no drums on it, just this weird sound, half-drone half proto Brian Eno sound effect. It's probably on YouTube but right now I'm on a work computer with YouTube on Restricted Mode so can't find it.Romomusicfan (talk) 09:45, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is the fonofiddle version Romomusicfan (talk) 21:56, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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