User talk:Mpschmitt1

Don't try to tear down other people's religion about their ears, Build up your own perfect structure of truth, and invite your listeners to enter in and enjoy it's glories.
~Brigham Young

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The Stranger who speaks to me

If we continue in this mode, Mpschmitt1, it's only because it's what opens your understanding to me, and I'm learning; but we mustn't forget that this is not a place for general discussion - we have a task together, to improve the article. If I said to you that in Christ you share in what He is, and you are the Temple and a living stone in Him who keeps you, would it be a big let-down to know that you have no need of such passing elementary principles of the world as temples, and tokens, and regulations, or a prophet like Moses, for He has come and in Him a righteousness from God has been given - or would you not hear me, and assume that despite what you've said you already know this? We should then regard you as prisoners, upon whom we must have mercy; and the blind, to whom we are sent to give sight; and the deaf, whose ears must be opened; and rather than curse you as a traitor, we should plead and bless and pray for you; then perhaps you would know the stranger who speaks to you. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 07:08, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Mark (MKmcconn) You had written this in a former thread of ours and I've been wanting to get back to it for some time now. Particularly because the last phrase you used has stuck in my mind, but also because of some of the other things you said, I felt that perhaps there would be some fruit in us continuing the discussion here (this is from the Trinitarian Divisions thread if you want to go back to the archive and refresh your memory). So first I want to understand that last phrase better. I'm assuming that the stranger is Christ. Is that right? (I appreciate the tone of genuine concern for my eternal welfare in what you wrote by the way, so don't take this as a challenge at all, I really just want to understand your point of view here better because I feel like there's some fruit in it for me). I have other questions but lets start there so I'm sure I understand your meaning. If it is Christ, how is he a stranger to me? And how, in your view, would I make myself less of a stranger to Him? Mpschmitt1 (talk) 01:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This kind of discussion is awkward on Wikipedia; but I suppose it makes sense in the context of that particular article. Those are some poorly punctuated sentences that you've quoted from me; but, you more or less have the gist of what I meant. Since you profess faith in Christ but speak of earthly temples, it's evident that you don't believe that Jesus Christ dwells in his Church and also in his members. I was insinuating that this is your confession that you are as much a stranger to Christ as you are to me: because I'm addressing you directly but even so, you do not know me. I was admitting on behalf of the church that we have a responsibility toward you, in that case, to make it more evident that it is Christ who is addressing you, in us. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 19:22, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I understand our starting point better now (I'm going to recommend we just alternate indentation here, otherwise I think eventually we're going to get down to a single column of characters eventually and that will be no fun to read :-). By the way, if you still feel this is out of place in wikipedia as we continue, I'm happy to continue the discussion via email, so just let me know and I'll give you my email address. Firstly I actually believe both things you mention above. I don't think it's and either or proposition on earthly temples and professing a faith in Christ. Paul is clear that the body is the temple. Our bodies must be kept pure through Christ to be a temple for the Holy Ghost. I wholeheartedly believe that. I also believe that much of the answers to this issue lie in The Gospel of John chapters 14 - 17. From those chapters I am led to believe that the Church and every individual who considers him or herself a part of the Church, must get connected to the true vine, otherwise they wither. So if Jesus Christ doesn't dwell with and in you, you must ask yourself whether you really are connected to the vine. The test of whether we are truly connected to the vine is given in the First Epistle of John (the whole thing). As we read that epistle we learn that those who are truly in relationship with Jesus Christ demonstrate certain attributes:(I just love those bulleted lists , don't I ;-)

They walk in light, not darkness
They are humble and recognize and confess their sins as often as they fall short
They keep his commandments and accept the fact that Jesus is their propitiation for sin and their only hope
They love the will of God and reject the lust of the world
They have an anointing of the Lord, and this anointing they have received is connected to their abiding in Him (see chapter 2 v 27);
They do righteousness because they are born of Him and he works through them
They are purified through their hope in Christ
They avoid sin (but recognize that all have sinned and fallen short, so they remain penitent and humble to the end)
They love one another and have compassion for the needy and afflicted. They have the love of God in them. He that doesn't love cannot truly know God because God is love.
They dwell in God because they dwell in love. True Godly love, not the imitation that the world presents as love

I have seen all of these things demonstrated in our temples in the people I have seen worshiping there. The symbols of the temple serve to remind me of these things, and there have been many times when I have been taught through those symbols (coupled with the tutelage of the Holy Ghost) profound lessons that have helped me live those principles better and truly make my body a temple for the Holy Spirit. It is a refining experience. I'm not put off by the use of symbols and tokens, because it seems to me that from the days of the Old Testament temple ceremonies to the present day ordinances of the sacrament (communion) and baptism, God has always used symbolic ceremonies as a way of teaching important aspects of a covenant and as a vehicle for administering that covenant to the faithful recipient. Baptism for instance is a symbolic death to our old and sinful selves and rebirth to a new, cleansed, reborn individual who has covenanted to serve Christ and to eschew (King James word, I know) evil.

I'm in a tough spot here, Mark. I've studied enough of traditional Christianity to know why you are concerned for my eternal welfare, and I admire and appreciate that. And I'm grateful for that concern. At the same time, my heart is drawn out continuously in my life in prayer (and I'm not exaggerating when I say that) that I will live my life according to a manner that will be pleasing to my Heavenly Father and my Savior. I can't imagine that someone as earnest as I am about my faith, who has experienced the things that I have and who truly feels connected to my Lord in a sweet and real way is somehow being duped and cheated out of eternity. I wrestle with this often. It's not something I take lightly, and as I've mentioned before I can see the hand of God in my friends lives, some of whom are LDS some of whom are from other Christian traditions. I have gotten into the habit of asking God some tough questions and then seeking the answers in the Scriptures and that has been a fruitful process for me. I recognize he still has more to teach me and I also recognize that some of what I will learn will come as I observe the way others practice their faith in Christ. I've grown over the past year considerably in my appreciation for the sweet faith that those of other traditions have cultivated in their lives. I've weighed it against my own and in some cases it has spurred me to more earnest prayer and more sincere yearning and seeking for a closer relationship with Jesus and my Father. But I cannot jump ship as it were and just attend another Church just because that would be more acceptable to the Christian world at large. I've had sweet spiritual experiences associated with things particular to the Latter-day Saints (the temple experiences for example) and those are intertwined as a part of my testimony. I've felt spiritual assurances that this work the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints engages in is the work of God. So this leads finally after all these words to my next question. What would you do if you were in my position? Can you see that as liberating as it would seem to just join the greater Christian world and renounce the "peculiarities" of my faith, it would also be compromising the witness I believe I have from God for the sake of pleasing men? Mpschmitt1 (talk) 01:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In a manner of speaking, we are all in the same position. Each of us resists letting the world press us into its mold, and yet the world that we resist is different for each of us. You will nowhere in this world suddenly find yourself surrounded by acceptance and relieved from the pressure to be something other than what you are; that's not the way the world works. The experience of the truth is, for every one of us, intertwined with lies, doubts and confusion. So if that's our situation, I would say it makes sense to follow the path that does not justify itself by accusations, that encourages the confession of sin and hopes single-mindedly in Christ. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 19:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Amen. Let us both so walk as to be able to come before our Savior unashamed and praise his name forever for what he has won for us. Mpschmitt1 (talk) 01:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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