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Harvey Milk

You are so awesome. You are my hero. Will you marry me? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 19:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

HAHAHHA! No shit. That made my day. Better than a barnstar. YAY!!!! Just the rewrite, or all the fussy fuss involved, or just because it's so freakin' spectacular that it made you weep? --Moni3 (talk) 19:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

In general, the enormous amount of care and effort I've watched you taking over that article over the course of the last week or two, turning it from a not-half-bad article into a really, really good one, the kind that'll be a credit to Wikipedia, an appropriate biography of an important American, and a great front-page article. And all while I've been doing the much easier work of slapping vandals and admiring your painstaking labor. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 19:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Gus Van Sant's film will be premiered at Castro Theater on October 28, I think. (Have you seen the trailer?) Nationwide it will be released November 26. I will definitely need your mad anti-vandal skillz. I hope to be able to place the article on the main page November 27. If it was not clear in my previous response, I very much appreciate your comments. I don't see a lot of those. Thank you, and yay again! --Moni3 (talk) 19:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I am looking forward to seeing the movie; from the trailer, it looks like a good film. You should get lots of praise. I accept all misspelled insults as praise, and by that meter, I am constantly showered in love. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 15:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

That is a new perception on those who shout "Mohter fukcer!" at me. Quite a revolutionary way of thinking. I may adopt this for my own. You are a gift that keeps on giving. --Moni3 (talk) 15:52, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

My mom is pretty hot. ;) -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 15:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Protecting User:kotra

Thanks again! Some SA Goons must be particularly bored. -kotra (talk) 18:03, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

What a popular guy you are. Or not... --Moni3 (talk) 18:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Question about Lipantitlan FAC

Hi Moni, thanks so much for reading the Battle of Lipantitlan article; you are a great test case for whether or not I am making sense, and apparently I am not this time. I'm confused, though, on what exactly you were confused about. Are you asking for more background on the Texas Revolution (why are the Mexicans and Texans fighting)? Or is it more that you didn't get a good feel for why the Texians wanted to fight this particular battle? Or does the aftermath section not adequately explained the consequences of the Mexican defeat? Or all of the above? Thanks! Karanacs (talk) 17:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Hey. Thanks for asking for clarification. To be honest, I'm not sure as I said, if the reason and results of the battle are that clear to me. Perhaps a couple of sentences to bring readers up to speed on the Texas Revolution? A statement that says how this battle compared to others in the same conflict. Clearly it was not as big as The Alamo. This is my post-Vietnam, present-Iraq skepticism, but I would hope that if I'm getting shot at, I know for sure why I want to fire back. I didn't get a sense of urgency, duty, or atmosphere. Maybe it's taken for granted that all Texans did (and still do) want to defend Texas against all comers on principle alone. As a Floridian, I don't get that...which may cause Texans to pity me. And again, I may be painting your article in the same light I've read these Very Small FACs, in which a very short article admits not much really happened, and it's not really important, which then begs why it should be featured in the first place. --Moni3 (talk) 17:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Gay_Freedom_Day_1976_by_Harvey_Milk.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Gay_Freedom_Day_1976_by_Harvey_Milk.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Jordan 1972 (talk) 01:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I know, sunshine. --Moni3 (talk) 01:38, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Added to San Francisco Pride. -- Banjeboi 21:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

It's a non-free image, btw. Unless you can justify it really well, you may not be able to use it. But...I really hope you can. --Moni3 (talk) 21:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I doubt there will be much quibbling on its use. That's a low profile article and it's not careening toward FA at the moment. -- Banjeboi 23:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Harvey Milk in Texas 1957.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Harvey Milk in Texas 1957.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BJBot (talk) 05:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

On Standard oil, it might hold. -- Banjeboi 22:37, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Milk at Castro Camera 1973.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Milk at Castro Camera 1973.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BJBot (talk) 05:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

On The Castro, San Francisco, California. -- Banjeboi 22:37, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

FACR

Moni, you posted at one or more of the recent discussions of short FAs. There's now a proposal to change the featured article criteria that attempts to address this. Please take a look and consider adding your comments to the straw poll there. Mike Christie (talk) 19:21, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Morris Milk/synagogues

The only information I've been able to find on Morris Milk is exactly what you've seen. I can find no record of a "Beth Israel" in Woodmere other than Milk's biography. There is an Congregation Ohr Torah and a Young Israel synagogue in North Woodmere, but they were founded too recently to be related. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:33, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Shilts probably confused "B'nai Israel" (Sons of Israel) with "Beth Israel"; Beth Israel is an incredibly common name for American synagogues. The rabbi is likely to be busy on Monday, as another Jewish holiday starts Monday night, so don't be surprised if he takes a while to get back to you, or forgets to. Charles B. Bloch was the cantor at B'nai Shalom from 1949-1959, there might be something relating to him that would be a clue. B'nai Shalom is a Conservative synagogue, so there might be some more information in the JTSA archives, http://www.jtsa.edu/x4736.xml or http://www.jtsa.edu/x4375.xml. The Long Island Jewish World is published on Long Island, as is The Jewish Star. I wish I could give you more to go on, sorry. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Harvey Milk redux

• Saw your comments on FAC, but my response verges off-topic so brought it here. I am not deeply familiar with his life and especially his impact, but I.. kinda suspect.. that he is so hard to pin down because (figuratively speaking) he's not a person; he's a time and a place. Stop me if I'm wrong; isn't the poop law the only one he passed? But that does absolutely nothing to minimize his importance as a personification of a significant juncture in American history. But i could be wrong ;-) Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 13:30, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

• He passed two (it's in the article, *ahem* =) ). But most of the quotes about him were given immediately after he died, with a very high passion from the gay community in San Francisco. But I saw a speech on the anniversary of his death that was useless because it was "Harvey Milk's legacy is the opposite of Dan White's", or another by a City Hall employee that said something like "Harvey Milk did wonderful things in this city because he was allowed to by George Moscone", or the most perplexing one by Randy Shilts, who I can only assume was angry about not being able to find a regular job as a reporter (because he was openly gay) while he was writing Milk's biography, that went something like: "Harvey Milk's life was a representation of all of gay people's lives, because we'll feel like we won one day, then we'll get shot down and fail". Wtf? Numerous sources say that he's the most important politician, gay activist, etc to come out of San Francisco, then fall flat on saying why he was so important. It's as frustrating as it is perplexing. --Moni3 (talk) 13:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

If you're the first in line, or the first to be noticed as being line, then you don't have to do anything else to be notable (although you might). Who was openly gay and successful in America before Milk? [I admit vast seas of innocent ignorance on this topic]. Moreover.. and... well, look at Reagan. No similarities? Guess again. Look at his popularity ratings before and after Hinckley. Martyrdom (or near-martyrdom in Ronnie's case) is significant... But.. again, I could be wrong. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 13:51, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

No, you're not babbling, and there were few household name gay people in California or otherwise in the late 1970s. There are a few unreliable sources, and one or two reliable ones, that claim Milk is famous because he got shot. There's something offensive about making his life about his assassination, and I'm trying not to do that. I think it would be a fascinating thing to read an analysis of comments about Milk's legacy to conclude that as much as San Francisco, or gay people, missed Milk, they were more angry and feeling sorry for themselves. --Moni3 (talk) 13:59, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Do you have access to JSTOR, ProQuest, etc.? Would I be wasting my time searching academic journals? Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 14:07, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

• (undent): maybe.. like this?

Harvey Milk represents a different kind of symbol, a kind of culture hero. As one of the first openly gay elected public officials in the U.S. (Milk was elected to San Francisco's Board of Supervisors in 1978), Milk came to be a role model for gay people and to personify a new kind of power and pride in his participation in government as an open- ly gay man. His assassination, for gay people his martyrdom, repre- sented a tragic end to his political life, although his death served only to solidify the movement more.

• Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 14:17, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I have access to a university library, so yes, I have access to its books and databases. I'll spend today and tomorrow scouring everything again just to find this. I just think it's so odd that a clear statement about the guy's life couldn't be more prominent. As in - the first 10 books I picked up. --Moni3 (talk) 14:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

The ambiguity was overwhelming. I had to include it. Due weight and all. --Moni3 (talk) 18:43, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Good points here. Btw, I see you're hard at work this morning, Moni ... let me know when you get to a stopping place, and I'll go through it again. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 13:44, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I've got some shopping to do, I'll do it while you're working, check back later. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 13:53, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

A one-person countering systemic bias machine!

		The LGBT Barnstar
		For Mulholland Drive (film), Stonewall riots, and Harvey Milk - Thank you for writing these fascinating and well-researched articles! Now those millions of uninformed Google searchers will find reliable information instead of propaganda! We can change the world one article at a time (really, we can!). Awadewit (talk) 19:07, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

YAY! That is very awesome! Still riding my wiki stream of consciousness, working on Milk's article caused me to buy this a few days ago, among other things. Seriously. I'm totally going to read that. I stun myself. I figure by the time I'm done with all of Bryant's and Falwell's writings, my molars will be ground down to nubs. But yay for neutrality. Thanks very much for the copy edits and the barnstar. Was it all worth it just to link gay bathhouse? --Moni3 (talk) 19:33, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I hope you bought it for one cent! :) Gay bathhouse is nowhere near as fun as libertine! :) Awadewit (talk) 19:43, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Reception history of Jane Austen

Reception history of Jane Austen, one of the daughter articles for Jane Austen, is up for peer review here. I would appreciate your thoughts. Awadewit (talk) 20:53, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Avallone

I read the article; interesting, but nothing I can use for the Space SF FAC, unfortunately. I'll hang on to it in case it comes in handy for other genre-related work I do. Thanks for taking the trouble to get it to me.

You haven't expressed an oppose or support at the Space SF FAC; since I'm posting here I thought I'd ask if you intend to, or if there's any further response you're waiting for from me. Mike Christie (talk) 23:34, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I wanted to make sure you had seen everything available. Was contacting Griffon Publishing helpful at all? In the chance that you have seen everything written about the magazine, I'll reiterate what I said on the FAC page, that it would be difficult for me to support an article where it admits the subject wasn't really significant and hasn't really influenced anything. Since all FAs have the potential of being on the main page, I can't see an article with these admissions on the main page. I'll add this to the FAC if you wish. --Moni3 (talk) 23:44, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I hadn't yet contacted him; it was on my long-term list of things to do, but I didn't connect it with this FAC because it seemed to be about paperbacks only. I just took another look through his catalog, and did find one article about Planet Stories, so I've just emailed him to ask him what references he has on pulp and digest sf magazines. You never know.

Your comments about the tie between TFA and FA are interesting to me; I've only recently become aware in the current conversations about FA criteria that quite a few editors make this connection. I suppose that's the origin of the word "featured"; it was intended to mean "worthy of being featured on the main page". The current debate seems to me to be about whether the meaning of FA has shifted to mean "the best article possible". (That's how I've always thought of it myself.) Incidentally, there is already at least one article that is FA that won't ever be TFA: I gather Raul has said he would never put Jenna Jameson on the front page. That's not really the same argument, though. Mike Christie (talk) 00:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Update on Gryphon Books: I got an email back from them saying that they have nothing on science fiction digests. Thanks for the suggestion, anyway. Mike Christie (talk) 23:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Kannada literature in the Western Chalukya Empire

Hi. SandyGeorgia had recommended me to you some time back. If you have time, could you please copy edit this article for me. It is in PR right now.thanks, Dineshkannambadi (talk) 23:53, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll look at it. Give me a few days, please. --Moni3 (talk) 16:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 16:57, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I think I have made a serious attempt to address your concerns, while trying to satisfy the views of other reviewers, such as Sundar. Please take a look and see how it reads now. thanksDineshkannambadi (talk) 21:19, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Do you have time to copy edit this article? I would really appreciate it.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 23:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Hate to be picky....

but the footnotes at the Milk FAC? :) Awadewit (talk) 16:43, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Somehow I don't think you hate to be picky, but that's why it's that much better when I get a support. At any rate, Citation #151 was changed - it's no longer the SPUR document. The online link from Footnote 38 doesn't work for users off campus Here's the link, although it has "Document Number: K1650000298". I'll add that if you wish. --Moni3 (talk) 16:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

For the online database (which I have access to), doesn't it also say " Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008." - I think we should include the printed data as well. Awadewit (talk) 21:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

What is footnote 10? I thought that was the SPUR document as well? Awadewit (talk) 21:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

The SPUR document was 151, referencing San Francisco Planning & Urban Renewal update of Harvey Milk Plaza. This is for you. When I saw this today I laughed so hard I bawled. --Moni3 (talk) 21:52, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, the link in footnote 10/11, used to link there, but now links to a generic public library page. Could we fix the link so it links to the specific article? Awadewit (talk) 22:02, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

The Harvey Milk Scott Smith collection at the San Francisco Public Library has this link. At the top of the page is the Finding Aid, which is the pdf, but the link for the pdf doesn't seem to want to work properly. I don't know if that's a time-related issue, or maybe the day we both checked it it was messed up. This is the pdf.

Works for me. Awadewit (talk) 22:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Prohibition of death FAC

Hello, Moni3. You have new messages at AGK's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

— Anthøny (talk) 19:42, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Moni, withdrawing a premature nom is different than archiving a FAC after it has opposes: I don't want to overburden GimmeBot or articlehistory with the non-events. See User:SandyGeorgia/Withdrawn FAC and check my contribs. Thanks !! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:48, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks for letting me know when I need to do something differently. --Moni3 (talk) 19:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Patricia Highsmith

Thank you for very much your note, I'm glad somebody else shares my enthusiasm for this truly amazing author. She really was a fascinating creature, wasn't she? However, I'm afarid I'm not very learned on internet jargon. Could you tell me what FA status means please?

Yours, --6afraidof7 (talk) 22:12, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings

Hi Moni, would you mind going to this article and seeing if the changes made since its last FAC are to your satisfaction? It's going through a copyedit at this time, and it was recommended that I get the input of all reviewers. Thanks. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 04:38, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Give me a few days. I'll look at it. --Moni3 (talk) 12:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Resources

As I say, I always love getting additional resources; thanks very much for finding and sending them. I also really appreciate the careful attention to detail you offered in your comments. I have continued to think about it, and while I don't feel strongly one way or another, I do still feel that – given the fact that she spends so much time in her autobiography remarking upon the hypocrisy of those who claim to be in favor of women's suffrage – Mrs. Pankhurst's real focus was those who pretended to be with her, not those who were proud to oppose. I wish other folks had weighed in; I'm no good at making content decisions! =) Cheers. Scartol • Tok 12:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

FA-Team help requested

Hi Moni, I notice you are mentoring one of the students at WikiProject AP Biology 2008 (indeed, the article is one of those that I've been following). The FA-Team has just launched a mission to help this project, and also WikiProject North of the Rio Grande, improve articles towards featured quality. I'm hoping you would like to support a couple more articles and even join the FA Team! If so, please add your name to the articles you are watchlisting on the mission page (which might amuse you). Thanks, Geometry guy 19:30, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Lesbian

Ah, okay, you meant ordering the words. But it should still be in the lead. The history of the term is opposed to the history, because the history section deals with the subject matter of lesbian sexuality not the origins of the words lesbian. Which what was at issue. As for the external links, see the history for the reason and see WP:EL. Lihaas (talk) 01:06, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, you need to discuss this on the talk page. I'm a pushover. Others who watch the article removed all of your material. Avoid edit wars, please. Use the talk page. --Moni3 (talk) 01:13, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

YouTube Links

Here's the text: Linking to YouTube, Google Video, and similar sites Shortcuts: WP:YT WP:YOUTUBE

There is no blanket ban on linking to these sites as long as the links abide by the guidelines on this page. See also Wikipedia:Copyrights for the prohibition on linking to pages that violate copyrights. Therefore, each such link must be evaluated for inclusion on a case-by-case basis.

Have a nice day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.138.91.183 (talk) 04:48, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Um - in this case, it's a political advert, isn't it? I don't think that's appropriate in an encyclopedia article. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 04:57, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

No it is not a political advert. While the word "Hope" has been featured in Barack Obama's campaign, this video is independent and is specifically highlighting the words and works of Harvey Milk. The speech that is played is widely referred to as the "Hope Speech". I invite you to look further but there is no political affiliation with that video unless you are referring to the fact that it's about a politician who has been deceased for nearly 30 years...? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.138.91.183 (talk) 06:07, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, good morning. I wrote the Milk article. It's nominated for a Featured Article right now so that it does appears on the main page on the 40th anniversary of his assassination. If you don't know what the nomination process is like, please read Milk's. The article talk page, too. I hope you'll see the enormous amount of work that has gone into constructing the article, and the level of criticism I'm getting. Of the things I care about in the article external links are pretty low. But they can cause an editor to oppose its promotion to FA status, and they can hold up the promotion. If the link does either of those, I will remove it again and do whatever I can to ensure it does not return. --Moni3 (talk) 15:07, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Milk

How are you holding up? I kind of surprised by the turn that the Milk FAC has taken. Awadewit (talk) 15:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm ok. I'm not particularly surprised knowing the history this article has had. Reading talk page archives pages 2 - 8 (7 is where it gets really fun), its mediation session, the 2 ANI threads it spawned, and another on AN/Fringe might give you a glimpse into its recent changes since September. I'm kind of numb to anything else happening to it.

Political rhetoric for Props 8 in California, 2 in Florida, and another somewhere else are using the same language as the Save Our Children campaign. I can't get that one off the ground. It's still in my sandbox because all my energy is on Milk. Bummer, because I think it might help to dissect such apparently powerful language and move on to real communication.

Thanks though for asking. I don't know if it will be archived for lack of support or what... At least it will be of high quality by the time the film comes out so people can learn more about Milk from the film. --Moni3 (talk) 15:58, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Modern in Stonewall riots

I don't think "modern" implies a contrast with ancient. Think about the term "modern technology". Depending on the context, you might only be talking about the last year! And even if it did imply contrast with ancient, that would only force us to push the date of the beginning of the modern movement back (otherwise, what are you going to call the stuff before Stonewall?).

The homophile movement existed earlier in the US, as you mentioned. I disagree that it's insignificant and therefore worth speaking as though it didn't even happen.

Finally, Stonewall was the beginning of the current gay rights movement in the entire Western world, and I think it only makes sense to write about the impact of the event in that scope. And even if the gay rights movement didn't exist before in the US, they have become the defining event that marked the start of the modern gay rights movement in the United States and around the world is still not an incorrect statement.

So I'm pretty convinced that modern should stay. Best, MQDuck 12:07, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't agree but I'm trying to decide if I care enough to make an issue of this. Featured Article reviewers often nitpick over a single word such as "modern". On a Sunday morning when I just got up, I don't care. If someone else pitches a fit on, say, Tuesday night, I'm going to care a lot. --Moni3 (talk) 13:27, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Would you like to tell me the problem(s) you have with my arguments? I'd prefer a consensus over an "I don't care enough", if possible. --MQDuck 16:44, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

As the sentence reads, "modern gay rights movement in the U.S." it is misleading. Not only does it suggest that there was a gay rights movement prior to Stonewall (I still think it does, because the plow and Archimedes' screw are not modern technology), but it was a gay rights movement. There was somewhat a form of activism, but it was not a gay rights movement. The Mattachine Society and DOB took the non-confrontational strategy of trying to educate straight and gay people alike, hoping to prove that gays weren't abnormal. They did this by downplaying the gayest people: drag queens, butch women (or simply, women who wore pants), and those that strike fear into the hearts of middle America in the Folsom Street Parade. I don't fault them for it - it was an unbelievably uphill climb for them. There were bolder activists in Randy Wicker, Frank Kameny, and Barbara Gittings before Stonewall, but I'm not sure three people consists of a movement. They were part of the homophile movement, which was different from the gay rights movement, and they were so bold (a mere 4 years before Stonewall) that many leaders in the Mattachine and the DOB condemned what they were doing. Gittings was fired from The Ladder for being too militant.

I'm not saying what they and others less bold did wasn't important or significant, but in comparison, what happened after Stonewall was stunning to Kameny, Wicker and Gittings. All three were considered part of the old guard and had to quickly adjust to the newer no-holds-barred activism and the spread of gay pride. The article makes this point, but also acknowledges what had come before Stonewall and what a monumental change occurred after the riots. --Moni3 (talk) 17:05, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

knock knock - housekeeping

I've given the talkpage a bit of a spongebath to clear out what looked to be resolved or stale items. I'm unclear if the few I've left are done or not. From the comments above as well I can't tell if there is new drama at the FAC? Hope all is well - you gotta have hope! -- Banjeboi 21:08, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Hey. Thanks for the archiving. Was going to do it when the FAC was promoted or archived. (You can give your input, btw, making suggestions if you think the article needs work, or supporting if you think it should be promoted.) Thanks for the help! --Moni3 (talk) 21:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I put a small mint on your pillow as well. -- Banjeboi 22:14, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Though I very much appreciate it, I hope you did it because the article kicks ass and not for me. --Moni3 (talk) 23:16, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I love myself and did it all for me! -- Banjeboi 12:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

There's the spirit. --Moni3 (talk) 12:32, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

When you have a spare moment...

...would you mind striking the items that are finished at Wikipedia:Peer review/Reception history of Jane Austen/archive1? I'm wading through a lot there. :) Awadewit (talk) 00:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Done and done. --Moni3 (talk) 01:04, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Main Page redesign

The Main Page Redesign proposal is currently conducting a straw poll to select five new designs, before an RFC in which one will be proposed to replace the Main Page. The poll closes on October 31st. Your input would be hugely appreciated! Many thanks, Pretzels^Talk! 12:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Harvey Milk

Well done Moni. Please accept my congratulations. Graham. Graham Colm ^Talk 22:26, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much, Graham, for your input and comments. I appreciate it! --Moni3 (talk) 22:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Right back at ya!

		The LGBTQ Barnstar
		Congratulations on slogging through a fairly tough FA for Harvey Milk - and getting it completed before the movie comes out! Yaaaay! -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 01:33, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Yay indeed. You rock for so many reasons, M3. Kudos for all your hard work on this and other articles. Scartol • Tok 23:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah! We're very happy to have you on board for the next podcast. Looks like Saturday is a good pick for all of us. I just wanted to make sure that this week – the 8th – works for you? 3PM EST was the proposal, so if you and Awadewit are okay with it, let's plan to make that happen. Scartol • Tok 23:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't have anything planned as yet, I think. Can we narrow down the list of topics, or will we do that at the time? --Moni3 (talk) 13:43, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Killing the bear and reaching down its throat for my barnstar...

Glad I perked up your day :P If edit summaries allowed external links i woulda thrown this guy up and complete the in-joke, but alas... by the way, I freely admit I'm king of the nerds in this case; I've watched the film so many times writing the article (once to remember the plot, once for the text commentary, once with the audio commentary, once with the family, once with the girlfriend) that I mouth the lines as it goes along. There's no hope for me, save yourself :P Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 18:37, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Pish. Five times? Is that all? (Plus that time you saw it in middle school...) You lightweight. My film watching entered into the realm of neurosis for Mulholland Dr.. Writing its article was the only way to get it out of my head. Are you able to tell me what is up with Ricardo Matalban's man boobs in this flick or what? --Moni3 (talk) 18:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

In Nicholas Meyer's word, Montalban "is one strong cookie". :P Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 19:21, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Review

Hi, I'm hoping to try for a FAC for Bart Simpson on Friday and I was wondering if you could take a look at the page and let me know what you think. It has a much larger section about his cultural impact than Homer's article does, and I think it's closer to the suggestion that you made on the Homer Simpson talk page. Anyway, if you could take a look it would be appreciated. Thanks, Scorpion⁰⁴²² 17:54, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Favor to ask

Moni, I trust your judgment and even handiness, so would you look at this dispute I'm having with an editor on Talk:Joe the Plumber#Israel comments and tell me which of the WP:Dispute resolution processes I should start with: WP:Editor assistance, WP:Third opinion, WP:POVN or what? Basically, I believe the paragraph in question is subject to WP:NPOV, and the other editor does not, for reasons spelled out by both of us in the thread (with it's sub-thread). Thanks much. — Becksguy (talk) 00:03, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

PS - Any advice on this would be appreciated as this is the first time I am thinking about using dispute resolution. — Becksguy (talk) 00:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I read the paragraph in question and the discussion about the dispute. What I'm not seeing in the article is a statement on why this dingus fine upstanding gentleman's opinion has become so freakin' important to two presidential candidates and the media circus surrounding them. Why does Joe the Plumber care about Israel? What experience in economics does he have in his life to make anyone listen to his views about what constitutes socialism? Surely there's a reliable source around somewhere that states America's frothing media latched on to his well-thought-out opinions because they're so frantic to inject some more suspense into the campaign, that they made this guy a Kato Kaelin-type quasi-celebrity. This article should be as much about his being designated the spokesman for everyman. When that approach is included, then it makes sense to include the responses from the interviewers and pundits that not only give his statements validity, but then point out the blindingly obvious that this guy is a dork. --Moni3 (talk) 00:41, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree, but unfortunately he is now notable because of the campaign and media circus. But then, so is Paris Hilton. Anyway, what should I do now? If I delete the paragraph or add the responses, I think it will just start an edit war. And I don't believe edit wars are good for anyone. — Becksguy (talk) 00:57, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, the information is about Joe the Plumber's views, dumb as they are. So they're ok in the article. However, at the top of that section of media appearances should be several sentences that say how he became (inexplicably) the voice of "everyman", a point that is made in the lead. Joe the Plumber is a symbol for something. As that symbol, he became not only a voice for blue collar workers with a questionable education, but a lightning rod for criticism that was politically motivated. So, what I'm trying to say is that Joe's views about Israel are fair game for this article, but opinions about his views are too. --Moni3 (talk) 01:07, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Chattin'

Hey.. We're text-chatting on Skype prior to the podcast.. If you're around, maybe you'd like to sign in? Cheers! Scartol • Tok 19:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

podcast is live :-)

Thanks heaps for recording another podcast, guys! Here it is!- I've only listened to the first section thus far, and am enjoying it enormously :-) - you're 'live' on the community portal now, and I'll be uploading your recording to iTunes when I get the chance (apologies for the inevitable delays on this bit) - once again thanks for taking the time to record this, and I look forward to many more! cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 06:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Jonathan Katz

Hello, I was wondering if you'd heard back from Prof Katz. I found this [1], with a different e-mail address from the one that was posted on the WP talkpage. Somehow I can't find his faculty webpage.Zigzig20s (talk) 11:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I have heard back from him. The guy who contacted us was Jonathan Ned Katz, editor of a huge volume called Gay American History. The link you provided is for Jonathan David Katz. --Moni3 (talk) 12:57, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you know if he is a professor somewhere at the moment? Google is not helping.Zigzig20s (talk) 14:23, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Images

Hi Moni3! I've translated Stonewall riots into Finnish. However, there are a few images that we are unable to use in the Finnish Wikipedia, because they're not in Commons (specifically Image:Kay Lahusen in 1969.jpg, Image:Layout of the Stonewall Inn 1969.PNG and Image:Stonewall Inn in Greenwich Village map.png). Would you be so kind as to move them there? I could do this myself, but as you are the original uploader, I suspect it would be easier for you. Thanks! --Olli (talk) 22:22, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, sweet. I will do that. Give me 24 hours. And let me know the progress of the article! Kiitos. --Moni3 (talk) 22:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Milk

Just saw a preview and thought of you. Hope you're well - what's come of the HM article? (oh dear god keeper, you should look before asking -- I hope I'm not stirring up sore spots :-). Enjoying adminning? Keeper ǀ 76 02:23, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Hey there. Aren't we irresistible here? I saw that preview too. It's quite a powerful splice of that film. Haven't seen the film yet, but can't wait to. Milk's article finally got to FA after an uphill slog. It's on the main page request line right now, knock wood. If you see the movie and read the article, let me know what you think! Good to see you again! --Moni3 (talk) 02:34, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Irresistible. Yeah, that's the word....heh. Planning on seeing the flick, if/when it ever gets a showing in the midwest, ha. (in our corn-fed, ethanol lovin', cow-wranglin' collective minds, San Francisco politics are about as interesting as watching paint dry - hopefully some oscar nods will get it on screen over here in buffer-world) ;) Congrats on the FA, I never had a doubt. In fact, I don't even remember what'sitsname/othereditor that was tripping things up.  :-) Glad you're well. Keeper ǀ 76 02:45, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of which.. Inspiration struck today and I thought you might get a kick out of it. (I'd be surprised if I'm the first to make such a thing.) The image comes from the mural in the article. Cheers! Scartol • Tok 01:14, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Hah. Cool. Probably been used a lot in SF, but not back in the day. I took the pic of the mural. Sweet. --Moni3 (talk) 01:25, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:NRG

Hi, and hope all's well. I was wondering if you would be willing and able to help mentor a group of students on the NRG project as they enter the final stages of their assignment? If so, they and I would be forever grateful. I was thinking that How the García Girls Lost Their Accents might be an article that would be attractive to you... What say you? It would be simply magnificent if you were able to help out. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 03:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Only if you say it would be "spiffing", "ripping", "sporting", and/or call me chap. Then and only then will I do it. --Moni3 (talk) 03:24, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Dear me, old chap, I thought that was taken for granted, rather! Top hole, old boy!  :) --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 03:34, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Old girl, it would be simply brilliant! I do hope you'll agree. Milk or lemon? Risker (talk) 03:36, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I say, Risker, old bean. Would you be free for a bit of rugger with the NRG chaps, too? --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 03:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

At the risk of embarrassing myself, I see NRG as Pure NRG by Information Society. I am old, it is true. --Moni3 (talk) 03:53, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Me, this is what goes through my addled old mind. Has done all semester. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 03:57, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Everglades news

Florida and U.S. Sugar are in the news today, at least at nytimes.com; apparently Florida's going to let U.S. Sugar keep everything but the land, and I'm not sure what they're going to do with all the assets if they're not farming the land, so it may be there's no deal at all. Perhaps a case of saying one thing before the election and another thing afterwards. I'm sorry, I'm tied up with RL stuff and article-writing and won't be able to participate, but I thought of you when I saw the news. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 12:47, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Comaring sizes of....erm, articles...oh that analogy doesn't work anyway

Heya, thought you may like to add yer 2c US (now about 3c Australian since our currency nosedived) to....Bryce Canyon National Park, which has been nominated for a featured article review, given evergladey sorta stuff... :) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:13, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Since I modeled Everglades National Park on Bryce and Zion, I will. Give me a few days. Thanks for the heads up. Hope your head is above the Major depressive disorder waterline. --Moni3 (talk) 02:18, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Erm, sort of...but then you get things like this new user...(check the contribs to get an idea of the unfolding of events)..well actually some of the points raised are valid ones and I have/am addressing them. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:31, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Then, when I am too razzled, I can always play some relaxing music  :) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:05, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

One of these days I'm going to start "Music to write FAs to" page...and I suppose we can add a section for "Music not to go crazy at FAC page". --Moni3 (talk) 21:31, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Ahar, well the nice gal who did me userpage had this lil' page (gosh Tony an' Sandy 'd die at the bluelink overdose!) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:58, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

My idea was similar, but actually organizing it in the categories of the WP:FA page. As in, under Biology: if you want to write about about fungus, Casliber suggests... (Moni suggests "Ask the Mountains" by Vangelis if you want to write about the Everglades). --Moni3 (talk) 14:10, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

And this could be for..anything really. Well, I was going to say US politics but that won't hold true anymore after January :)))) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject LGBT studies Newsletter

This newsletter was sent by §hepBot (Disable) at 21:19, 12 November 2008 (UTC) by the request of Moni3 (talk)

Reply

Hello, Moni3. You have new messages at Stepshep's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

§hep • ¡Talk to me! 21:38, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

No problem, glad to help out! §hep • ¡Talk to me! 21:42, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Very inspirational newsletter. Made me want to go write an FA immediately. Possibly, not so much on the obscure gay films and more with legislation and gay rights though? :) I will look into it (after the essay on how geography and archaeology contribute to the study of the Bible that's due tomorrow! :D) - I started work on Civil partnerships in the UK a little while ago...

Really not sure on the importance thing - like I said on the talkpage, from what I've seen in other projects, it seems like a lot of work for the people assessing, good faith effort better targetted into article writing and categorisation, for very little use. I am delighted, however, that someone is so enthusiastic about giving the project some oomph. Me and Jeff took a single page with 17 members and turned into a cabal to be reckoned with, that's fractured a bit since - I hope you do better; today Wikipedia, tomorrow the White House. :) Dev920, who misses Jeffpw. 01:49, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm very glad you found it inspirational. I thought most people would tell me to stop being bossy. I recognize not everyone likes to write FAs. Tagging stuff and doing wiki gnomish things on articles that are considered high priority might be a good place to start for some folks. Seriously, I don't know how effective this organization thing might be, I just think we have to start somewhere. Thanks, btw, for making the project. --Moni3 (talk) 02:14, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Answering the call

That was certainly a very inspiring newsletter! Okie dokie, let's see what we can do. :D I doubt I can contribute much to U.S legislation-related articles (shame what happened in California, though...), but I'm sure there's some relatively important Start-class article waiting for some love... ^_^ See ya! Raystorm (¿Sí?) 12:23, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Save the Children

This is a courtesy note to say I reverted your edit on Save the Children. There is already an "other uses" and we don't list all the disambigs so it looked inappropriate. --BozMo talk 20:00, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

To be fussy, the "other uses" is for Save the Children. The disambig at the top of the page is for Save Our Children. Close, but picky enough for Save The Children file an injunction against Bryant to make them stop using the name... --Moni3 (talk) 20:15, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm very worried about that. We need a very strong disambiguation for that very reason. I have one major charity. They will get hit if the distinction isn't very clear, and they don't deserve it. The other day, I checked through all the dab templates and didn't find one strong enough. It should be very very clear. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:17, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Are you suggesting I revert BozMo's reversion? Would it not rule to edit war within hours of the article's posting? I swear this article is toxic and it makes me all kinds of unwell. Ick. --Moni3 (talk) 21:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I haven't looked ... I was more concerned about the work in your sandbox I saw the other day ... that when it goes live, it needs to be very clear that "they" are not "them". I haven't caught up, just saw this post here and it reminded me that I meant to say something ... I would sure hate to see Save the Children hit again over that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:25, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I posted the article at Save Our Children an hour or so ago. You can check out the disambig I put at the top of the page. I reversed the order and worded it so on the Save the Children page. That's what BozMo reverted. --Moni3 (talk) 21:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I am not that fussy (nor argumentative) if you feel its a special case... although the fact that A is allegedly passing off as B does not imply that B is in danger of being mistaken for A, especially if B is the bigger name. --BozMo talk 07:31, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Hanson

Not Hanson (band), but Glen Hanson. Does your library have archives of the Washington Blade? I'm looking for any ref that says that Glen is gay, and it's proving to be *very* difficult. One possibility I found is:

• Roundy, Bill (28 July 2000), "On the air [gay-themed MTV animated tv show "Spy Groove" by Glen Hanson]", Washington Blade

Next time you go by your library, would you check and see if you have that one? I would very much appreciate it!!!

BTW, I heard you on the last episode of NTWW - nice job :) -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 16:59, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

No shit? I had no idea folks listened to that. Yay! Ok, I can search to see that issue does not have that article in it. However, Glen Hanson is mentioned in 12 articles in the LGBT Life With Full Text database. I can only read one of these right now, a pdf review of Chelsea Boys, and it doesn't mention Hanson's sexuality. However, I can get these articles - or one or two - sent to me through ILL. Will take a few days. What do you think? --Moni3 (talk) 17:19, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

That sounds fine - no rush. His article is the stubbiest of stubs, so waiting a little won't hurt :) BTW, what is this "LGBT Life With Full Text" of which you speak? -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 17:33, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah, it is Manna from heaven. It is a collection of various LGBT publications. I have access to ONE, The Ladder, Washington Blade, The Advocate, and a bunch of other local publications. Some go back 10 years, some 4 years. ONE and The Ladder of course, go back 50 years. If I can't view it, I can ask for it through ILL. The Advocate I have on microfilm at the library back to 1970, and that is much more time consuming. --Moni3 (talk) 17:43, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

NM on the Blade - found what I needed: "as a young gay child" in an interview satisfies the requirements. =D -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 18:02, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Lol, dude, you need to let me know when you send me off to check a porn entrance site at work for God's sake. With exceptionally hairy men. I'm gonna keep the request in, just in case others try to verify your facts and get an eyeful like I did. There were dongers on that page! --Moni3 (talk) 18:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Hm. Sorry - I didn't think about that :) You should work from home! :) How do I add "Adult" to a link? I can't believe I've never run in to that situation before... :) -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 18:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Help, adopt me

Since my adopter User:Diligent Terrier had been offline since September 30,2008, may I request that I be adopted by any non-Filipino adopter, forthwith, amid the present controversy[2] Hoping for your swift action on my request. Cheers. {{adoptme|20081118075340}}--Florentino floro (talk) 09:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Save Our Children

Have you thought about nominating your new article, Save Our Children, for Good Article status? Given the depth and breadth of coverage, and the number of sources, I think it would probably pass. You can nominate it at WP:GAN. —Politizer ^talk/_contribs 14:41, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Oops, now that I glanced at your user page, I can tell you probably already know all about GA. Sorry if it sounded like I was talking down. —Politizer ^talk/_contribs 14:43, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Yeh, I have. I almost did it yesterday. I'm giving it a thorough read-through. It might end up as an FA at some point, but that means I have to read Anita Bryant's books and spend some days reading through microfilms of The Miami Herald in 1977. Though it needed to be written, the article is depressing as shit. I think I may have to take frequent breaks from it. Let me know if anything is necessary for the DYK blurb. Thanks. --Moni3 (talk) 14:45, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The DYKs all look fine; I just verified the nomination (suggesting the 3rd blurb, the one about ruining her career, to be the one to go to the main page). I can see how that article would be depressing; I applaud you for being able to even write it—given my feelings about the whole issue, I wouldn't trust myself near an article like that because I could never be NPOV about it. —Politizer ^talk/_contribs 14:47, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Gville pic

Dude.. Where was this pic taken? Looks like on-campus or somewhere downtown, but I can't place it. Scartol • Tok 20:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Millhopper Library with my camera phone. Waitin' in line to vote. --Moni3 (talk) 20:57, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Duh! That's right near the house where I grew up.. =P Hey, I thought you might be interested: The screenwriter for Milk is going to be on NPR's Fresh Aire this afternoon/evening. Cheers! Scartol • Tok 13:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Florida Everglades

I was just wondering if you were keeping up with the developments of the State of Florida buyout of US Sugar Corp which seems to be falling through. I also was wondering if you knew that there was a very easy way to help the Everglades without spending too much money. If the new administration were to eliminate price supports for sugar grown in the United States, all of the sugar farms would go out of business tomorrow - and no one would have to buy them out of anything. NancyHeise ^talk 05:00, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, a few notes up you can see Dank55 dropped a note. I read The Miami Herald and New York Times stories about it. I need to tweak some facts in the Everglades articles to reflect the update, but the stories seem to disagree on the impact for the Everglades. I was in the middle of writing another article, but that one is posted, so I'll concentrate on this update.

Certainly I don't see the necessity in sugar subsidies, and there is a lot of the sugar industry that is entwined with the politics of Cuban refugees. I am not an expert on sugarcane, but from what I've read West Indian cane is better ecologically and economically. The jobs that have been projected to be lost - again, I am not an expert, but they do not seem like jobs that would be missed terribly. Working with cane sounds awful, and it employs the poorest and least educated who might be better off if they did something different.

The sustainability of development needs to be a major priority in urban planning in South Florida. Towns like Westin and East Everglades that are built on drained land are foolish. They lure homebuyers in to purchase land that will clearly be flooded at some point in the near future. Sorry if you live on the beach, but it's like building directly on the beach in South Florida and expecting that a hurricane won't take the stilts right from under the house. Florida's economy is run by real estate and tourism, and virtually no limitations are put on land that can be developed. Wise urban planning would constantly re-form the South Florida metropolitan area to renew buildings and blocks that are considered eyesores and urban disasters. I'm not sure what makes people feel like they're better off living farther from the center of town - I think it's misplaced security - but the urge to build farther into the Everglades, abandoning the centers of cities is not good for the cities, and not good for the Everglades. If it's not good for the Everglades, it will destroy South Florida. I'm not sure Floridians quite understand that.

Pretty soon Floridians are going to have to realize that there is no tradition here. We're too new. We think that because our parents or grandparents lived the way we do, we're entitled to it or that we're entitled to something newer. I don't think we are. We may be entitled to better, but we have to redefine what better is. Better may not mean a new home in the middle of the Everglades. Instead, it may mean a new home built over what was a thriving industrial center 70 years ago. Hope I answered your question. --Moni3 (talk) 13:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I was not suggesting you had to change your article, I was just wondering if you knew what was happening. Until something actually happens I don't think you need to change your article because right now they are just talking, not cutting deals. I mentioned this to you just in case you were someone involved with one of the save the Everglades groups. I think the most likely way to save the Everglades is to eliminate the sugar price supports. The people working for the sugar farms are all immigrants who could be growing their own sugar in their own poor countries who used to have better economies when those countries used to produce sugar and sell it to us. That whole part of their economy was wiped out when we decided to grow sugar in the Everglades and enacted protective laws to make US consumers buy US grown sugar at a much higher price than what we could have bought it overseas. This led to the US candy factories relocating to Mexico so they could buy cheap sugar and US soft drink companies using corn syrup instead of sugar - and the vast pollution of the Everglades. Also, interesting to note that much of the land where sugar is grown in the Everglades is US Government land that is leased to the sugar farms. I don't understand why Charlie Crist is suggesting spending so much money to buy US sugar when all that is needed is to change an unjust law that harms everyone except a small group of incredibly rich sugar barons who make their money not by being competitive but by making huge political donations to politicians who then keep the trade laws as they are. It is just so corrupt and unjust and hurts these poor countries around us as well as polluting our Everglades. NancyHeise ^talk 15:05, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that sugar's involvement in the Everglades is as wrapped up in bureaucracy and political self-serving as real estate is. I can only imagine what kind of response a politician who suggested curbing development across the state would get, similar to the kind of overwhelming response getting rid of sugar in South Florida would. Interesting, though. Someday we might learn to look at the past to understand why some parts of our life stink so badly. Perhaps we should write an article on Sugar in the U.S. as a crop. Some of their employment tactics up to the 1970s (maybe still existing) were shameful. --Moni3 (talk) 15:17, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I could certainly contribute to such an article. The Government Accounting Office has for years determined the US Sugar program produces a negative economic impact on the country. I am not sure if anyone has written any books about the subject. Also, I think there have been less people moving into the State than moving out these past few years. That has impacted development as well as school enrollment. Maybe we are seeing a trend in the other direction? I dont know. NancyHeise ^talk 20:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I bought this (without the shag carpeting) recently, thinking I could use it some of the Everglades articles. I probably can, but it doesn't have an index, which vexes me. I'll have to take a week of baths to read it all. I also have access to the Marston Science Library at UF. I was just in there looking up a tidbit about Citrus and not sure why I was surprised to see it, but the Citrus section is fairly huge. I just did a search at the UF library for "Sugar" and it's....kinda huge. A bit daunting. So yeah, books have been written about it. Something I'll have to consider doing in the future. --Moni3 (talk) 21:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I would be interested in helping you if you ever embark on a Wikipedia page about it. I have access to Florida Atlantic University library but I have not searched for books on that topic, I have been very busy trying to bring Roman Catholic Church to FA which has been a daunting effort and one at which I continue to fail! :)

I do not consider it a failure. You have more balls guts than I do to undertake the largest consistent institution in the western world. Though I bravely construct articles that have yet to be written to give a voice to that which does not (in the Everglades), I am a coward of the knee-shaking, bladder-emptying variety when it comes to massively large and controversial articles. That is the major reason I have not overtaken the article for Martin Luther King, Jr. I can kiss any other kind of interests in other articles, etc. goodbye for 6 months to a year and become familiar with ANI disputes, multiple FACs, and on. Giano II's guide on how to write an FA observes that one should wait until the 23rd FA to tackle Winston Churchill. I have 11 more to go... --Moni3 (talk) 18:55, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Abraham Lincoln might also fit into that category. I can't believe there are no FA's on these more stellar historical figures who are not really that controversial. NancyHeise ^talk 21:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Newsweek Cover June 6 1977.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Advocate Cover April 20 1977.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Advocate Cover April 20 1977.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BJBot (talk) 05:22, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Save Our Children

On 20 November, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Save Our Children, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 12:06, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Ahaaaar-t

OK, here's one you can go to town with. I liked the Image:Flaming-wiki.jpg that debivort did so much, I thought another interpretation would be cool. I think it would be great to have an award for resurrecting or reviving old Featured Content, or the Brilliant Prose category that preceded it August 15 2001.

Now, where one could really go to town is how to alter a gold, silver or bronze wiki-jigsaw piece - cobwebs, resurrected zombie-style, lichen encrusted, 1950s 'back to the future' kitsch, 19th century look, be creative/surprise me ;). Anything that captures the idea of revival/spring cleaning/resurrection etc. I just thought of'n you as yer are an artiste an'all...Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:55, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Are you commissioning me? Because though I would like to become familiar with art programs, I draw and use oil paints. Low-tech for sure. But you know....so much more respectable. --Moni3 (talk) 14:11, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Aaawww, low tech is a fine medium too...I was just thinking of, dunno, morale boosting thingies... :) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Had I much, much more time (stupid job!) I would draw the Wikipedians I come across the way I see them. Everyone would be so gloriously attractive... --Moni3 (talk) 23:17, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind...I just saw a priddy thing on another page......by someone who clearly loves playing round with images etc. and may have a whale of a time doing it. Unless you already started something ...(??) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:30, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Wow

Check out Wikipedia talk:Did you know#Christmas DYK. Awadewit (talk) 14:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Nice! Well played. Maybe I'm just not living in my warm feather-lined nest, but it seems to me that that may actually be happening. I've encountered some odd movements around and about lately. See this attempt. Btw, if you're up for a scan, I'd be interested to see if my most recent has POV issues. Not sure if I'm taking it to FA, but since I mentioned it to you earlier, thought you might want to peek at it. --Moni3 (talk) 14:59, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Maupin

...huh, really? I thought it was evidently not a coincidence (although I'll grant that "obvious" and "correct" are not necessarily synonymous). Are you sure that Maupin wasn't tongue-in-cheek when he said it was a coincidence? What's the exact context? DS (talk) 15:50, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, yer gonna make me look it up...hold on... Curses on accountability!! *shake fist* --Moni3 (talk) 15:59, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I was writing Tales of the City as a serial in-house at the San Francisco Chronicle, and I was able to respond to news of Bryant's campaign in a matter of 24 hours, concocting a letter from gay character] Michael's mother about their efforts to save Florida from the homosexuals. By the strangest serendipity, I had already established Michael as the son of Florida orange growers. Within a matter of weeks, Michael was writing a reply to his mother in which he comes out. (Gods&Monsters. By: Maupin, Armistead, Advocate, 00018996, 11/12/2002, Issue 876)

Flight 19

Thanks :-) Are you done yet? Archive is always lower case. We need

• Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Flight 19/archive2
• Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Flight 19/archive1
• Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Flight 19 (linking back to archive 2)

... and everything in between maintenance deleted (think there are still some inbetweens left, like Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Flight 19/Archive2). Thanks again, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:58, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I see Roger Davies is working on them now ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:59, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I think I am... or I thought I was. I asked Maralia if I got it right. Sorry if I missed something, which I see I did. Saw the lower case, and I have no explanation for the /Archive2/Archive2. Have no idea how that happened... --Moni3 (talk) 19:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Doh. I checked the article talk page, the user's talk page, and saw that Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Flight 19 had been deleted - presumed that was all that you did. If I'd looked at your contribs I would've seen the full picture with the /archive pages. Sorry. Maralia (talk) 19:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

s:Author:Harvey Milk

I recently created this "author page" on Wikisource - I found 2 public domain speeches about Harvey Milk from the Congressional Record. Are you aware of any public domain speeches/texts/writings by Harvey Milk himself, that I could add to Wikisource? Cirt (talk) 01:06, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

You know, I have no idea what the rules are for public domain and speeches. I've seen "The Hope Speech" and "That's What America Is" printed in several places. Gosh, eh. If it's given in public are those words then not public domain? --Moni3 (talk) 01:11, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure. Were they initially first printed somewhere, or just speeches given, um, to the public? Cirt (talk) 01:18, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Hey, could use your input here please: s:Wikisource_talk:Collaboration_of_the_Week#Proposed:_Author:Harvey_Milk. Thank you, Cirt (talk) 20:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind, I will try to do some research on my own about it for now, but I will keep you posted. Cirt (talk) 17:53, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

WT:FAC

Hi Moni. No offense, but as I said on WT:FAC, you may wanna strikethrough the comment about Bush—as WT:FAC is not the appropriate forum, etc. Thanks. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 17:40, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps not. But I heartily believe that along with everything else I said. --Moni3 (talk) 17:44, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

And many other people heartily believe many other things, none of which are appropriate for WT:FAC, and none of which have been placed there... ;-) Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 17:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. I bet some people post things they don't believe at all! At any rate, I'm not striking through, but I understand your concerns. If folks tell me I'm full of shit, I understand it, and I accept it as part of the heart of the post itself. --Moni3 (talk) 17:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

OK. :-) I'm not actually...mmmmmmm, I'm disagreeing with posting political comments of FAC. I'm not taking a position on your position. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 18:34, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

How very politically savvy of you. I confirm denying admitting I ever said that. --Moni3 (talk) 18:37, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Does that make you a hanging chad? Эlcobbola _talk 18:44, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

(undent) I have everything you said on tape. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 18:41, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

And the Band Played On

You've done wonderful work on And the Band Played On! A classic book that I'm very glad has gotten excellent treatment on Wikipedia. Have you ever thought of nominating it for FA? CarpetCrawler (talk) 17:28, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your review. I don't know why I haven't considered it for FA. There would be some significant changes to the article if that took place. And the section about Gaetan Dugas is a bit weak. It's worth considering in a bit, I guess... --Moni3 (talk) 00:57, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Xaviera Hollander

When you get a chance, would you take a look at the Advocate article cited at Xaviera Hollander? She's recently married a guy, though supposedly she "turned gay" for a girl ten years ago. I'd like to see if I can find more info on the other girl Dia, and/or see if Xaviera identified as lesbian or just had a fling. Know what I mean? Anyway, let me know? Thanks! -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 05:16, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

re: Please input

I've done mine, plus a little bit of formatting, and a minor correction to yours. I hope this meets with your magnanimous approbation. So all ready to rock 'n' rock, i guess. --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 15:23, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Well done. Here we go. Thanks. --Moni3 (talk) 15:24, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Re-education through labor GAR

Thanks for your review! I'm about to go out for the day, but I'll try to look into addressing your concerns this evening. —Politizer ^talk/_contribs 17:52, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks again for all your comments. I have tried to address your concerns in the article, and have left comments at the GAR page explaining what I did. I think for now I've done just about everything I can do without more input from you (specifically, I had some questions about your first suggestion, the one on rewording the "Laojiao and laogai" section, that I wanted to clarify before making any changes), so I think I'll just sit back and wait until the next time you're free to review the additions.

I also had one more quick question, about how to format the references. I recently took some of the references that are very long and cited very many times (specifically, the Laogai Handbook reference and the US Dept. of State reference) and split them up by page/section number...so now they each appear multiple times in the reflist. The reflist has become a little cluttered, and in this revision I experimented with putting the full citation information for those references outside the reflist, and making the things in the reflist just have title and page number...I didn't like it so I reverted it. But anyway, if you have any thoughts about what would be the most reader-friendly way to deal with the references, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks again, —Politizer ^talk/_contribs 18:38, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I've rewritten the problematic section at the beginning, trying to follow the format you suggested, and left a note of it at the GAR. Thanks, —Politizer ^talk/_contribs 15:24, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for all your help with the review! While getting GA is nice, the best part about it, as always, was just having an extra set of eyes to look over the article and figure out how to make it better after I had hit a wall. I see your Save Our Children article is on GAR now and looks like it's on the verge of passing, so congratulations on that as well! —Politizer ^talk/_contribs 19:42, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Image reviews!

Thanks so much for helping out with the image reviews - it was so nice to come home from meeting with students and see those! Awadewit (talk) 22:40, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

No problem. They were relatively easy to do. I'll see if I can keep up doing some others as well. --Moni3 (talk) 23:02, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

"Gay"

Hey, I'm sorry to bother you, especially when you have so recently gotten through helping with my GAN, but I just accidentally got involved in a dispute at Talk:Gay#Change in usage of the word in the late 1960s and, given your involvement in LGBT articles, I thought maybe you could take a look. I am going to try to avoid the discussion for a few hours because I am pretty offended by what the last editor said and don't want to get myself into a war, but if you could spare a moment to take a look at the discussion (it's very short right now) and offer an unbiased opinion, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you, —Politizer ^talk/_contribs 23:50, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

"I hath"

You do know that's ungrammatical, right? As long as it's intentional.... --Trovatore (talk) 09:18, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

It is ironical. I don't use "hath" seriously in any part of my language, nor "wrought" excepting the description of iron fencing. --Moni3 (talk) 13:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Old Jeffersonville Historic District

All the problems you found in Old Jeffersonville Historic District should be fixed now.--Gen. Bedford ^{his Forest} 17:36, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Haven't heard back from you; thought I'd check in.--Gen. Bedford ^{his Forest} 07:22, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Everything should be remedied now.--Gen. Bedford ^{his Forest} 19:58, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Dan

Hey Moni, it was your interaction with Dan that helped me feel comfortable with nominating him---glad to see I read the relationship right. ;-)---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloon 23:09, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes ... thanks again for all the nice things you said, Moni :) - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 17:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)