User talk:Mayan302

Your recent edits

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book

Internationalbooks is an option. Pls ask User:Sodabottle. He seems to be reading a lot. --CarTick 20:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Tough luck man. out of print and out of stock in India.. Seems to have had a limited print run. Either you find a used book seller in Amazon willing to ship to India (for about a 5000 rs !) or find it in a library. --Sodabottle (talk) 17:36, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

where did u get the other book and how much it costed? --CarTick 11:27, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

thanks. very reasonable. I didnt know such a book store exists. --CarTick 11:36, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

nytime dudeMayan302 (talk) 11:49, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

 where is ur native place

--perumalnadar (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:19, 10 January 2011 (UTC).

tuticorin, nalumavadi...Mayan302 (talk) 05:05, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

use the below template for a underconstruction tag

{{Underconstruction}}

--Sodabottle (talk) 13:00, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Soda. To Mayan, pls start a new section to leave your messages, i often find it difficult to find them. --CarTick (talk) 15:50, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

k,dude.thanks sodaMayan302 (talk) 17:31, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

pls remember the tag is used to avoid edit conflicts and people will remove the tag if not much activity happens in the article for a while. --CarTick (talk) 17:41, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

hey is there any other tag which ll buy me more time also.hey i hav opened another draft.this one is for the uppercloth revolt article.could u rewrite the article(my draft ucr article) and make it as it used to be. i ll use k.rajjayn's book and this read 17-18. The book above tells us a lot about the nadars of travancore today.i ll write the nadars of travancore today part(and also add a few lines from rajjayan) and you write the rest.since u introduced the article u must be havin sum knowledge abt it.could u help me?it ll take me a helluva time to do it alone.u just edit my draft ucr,we ll make a discussion set things right and eventually append the draft to the main ucr article.would u help,karthick thank u. here is the draft ucr.User:Mayan302/sandbox2 Mayan302 (talk) 18:03, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

good. please feel free to improve the article. i will try my best to help you. will join you as and when i find time. --CarTick (talk) 21:11, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

note

Please assume good faith and be Civil when you deal with other editors. I have seen people getting blocked for uncivil behaviour and this edit summary is not helpful. --CarTick (talk) 14:29, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

k,dude.i jus cant believe these people.Mayan302 (talk) 15:32, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

hierarchy

saw you have given a caste hierarchy in Cartick's page, where Naidu's and Reddiars (manavadu group) ranks ahead of Nadars. I don't think it is that clear cut. Even within those telugu speakers, there are a few which rank below Nadars and almost at the fringes of the Panchamas. For instance there is the Konda Reddy group which is ranked among Scheduled Tribes now. Just wanted to inform if you are going to use the hierarchy in any article.--Sodabottle (talk) 14:40, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

never mind bro.well the nadars were above the vishwakarmas,ambattans,paravars.all these castes were also considered jus above the sc.see the given refs.caste varies frm district to district.the thevars were considered a low caste in coimbatore n were even discriminated.these thevars were known as vethala kara thevar.do u remember janagaraj's character in kizhakku vasal.but the same thevars in ramanathapuram were very powerful.caste is a strange thing n it varies frm place to place.thanks again dude.Mayan302 (talk) 03:22, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Page protection

Pages are never locked unless it is direct and repeated vandalism. For normal disruptive behaviour (like you are describing in Nadar page), they are not locked. Thats wiki for you :-). You will have spend time protecting the article. But if the activity is being driven by off wiki canvassing then you can raise a request at WP:RFPP.--Sodabottle (talk) 07:57, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

thanks dudeMayan302 (talk) 15:40, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Nadar Mahajana Sangam

Hi Mayan, i was wondering if you are going to finish this section in the Nadar main article. --CarTick (talk) 13:51, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

I ll complete it by next week karthik. I am a little busy.. :) I have to cut short abt 100pages. Will do Mayan302 (talk) 02:52, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Nadar (caste)‎

Hi mayan, As I read in land records during the period of pre-independance to some of the "A- Nadan"'s where classified as kshatriyas. Mentioned as kshatriyas as class and profession as agriculture. So only attributted the category and template in to the following topics :

1. Nadar (caste)‎
2. Nadan (Nadar subcaste)‎

Help in this regard with your comments and suggestion

Thankyou — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahizhini1977 (talk • contribs) 23:05, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

reply

Happy Mayan,

What kind of photos you require. pls clarify and classify.

Hope I have some collections of old pics of people (1900 - 1950) in my album. --Mahizhini1977 (talk) 10:55, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Non-free files in your user space

Hey there Mayan302, thank you for your contributions. I am a bot, alerting you that non-free files are not allowed in user or talk space. I removed some files I found on User:Mayan302/sandbox. In the future, please refrain from adding fair-use files to your user-space drafts or your talk page.

• See a log of files removed today here.

• Shut off the bot here.

• Report errors here.

Thank you, -- DASHBot (talk) 05:01, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

images

some ideas for images for Nadar article

1. people; how they look. While most Tamils look pretty similar, non-Indian readers would be interested. Like most Indian communities, I am pretty sure Nadars come in different shades of colour. therefore, pictures of people with different shades will be educational.
2. village
3. Marriage ceremony
4. Death ceremony
5. Temple and church
6. Festivals
7. Food, street food --CarTick (talk) 15:22, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

your recent work looks good. I havent got the time to verify the texts, but, pls make sure that you write them in your own words. It would be nice to include Templeman's book as well. i will try to see if i can do anything about it.

In any case, the historical aspect of the subject seems quite complete. the article has the potential to be converted into a good article if some of the issues can be addressed. That includes 1) adding more sources 2) more pictures 3) Nadar's interaction with Christian missionaries (this is very important as a large % of Nadars seems to be Christians) 4) religion in general, how Nadars practice Hinduism; is it different?, the traditions, family god if any, and everything related to Nadars and Hinduism 5) cuisine 6) Language and accent. could be more or less. --CarTick (talk) 13:51, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I used my own words.dont worry.adding more sources?i need templeman then.i know dat templeman's book contains a some detail abt the nadars' present status.the way northern nadars practice hinduism is completely different from the way southern nadars practice.so i need to do some research.its pretty complicated.the sentence which claims dat 40% of the nadars r christians needs clarification.dat line wasnt in any book o article i know.n there were not any major interactions between the nadars and the missionaries.the climbers converted to christianity to improve their status n i have already included dat.ucr is the only major incident which involved the missionaries.i can include an article abt V.S.Azharia, the first bishop Indian bishop.he made quite an impact.the religion n culture part is also somethin complicated.hardgrave's book speaks nothin abt the nadars' culture.these r the contents of the templeman book [1].i ll finish the article but it may take some time.s we need more pics.i ve requested the nadar sagham to give me d required pics. Mayan302 (talk) 18:33, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

i changed the reference format. would you mind verifying that I havent made any mistake with page numbers. could you also please double check the ISBN and publishing year in the book that you own. thanks. --CarTick (talk) 22:21, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Its ISBN 81-7304-701-4. How do I add it?Mayan302 (talk) 12:48, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

references

refs 17, 54 and 55 from this version of the Nadar article seems dubious. it needs explanation or replaced with a better reference or the whole text removed. --CarTick (talk) 16:22, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

image

File:Rattinasami_Nadar.jpg says he died in 1917. This references (http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdfplus/2054164.pdf) says he died one year after founding of the Sangam. i am pretty sure you dont own the image. the image can still be used because it is in the public domain. you have to change the copyright status of the image. --CarTick (talk) 17:11, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Copyright status. i dont understand.these images r more than 90 yrs old. hey hold on.i didnt include the section orthodox custom o marma ati, it was already in the article.i never said i am through writin the article.give me more time dude i ll fix itMayan302 (talk) 18:16, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

{{PD-1923}} seems to be the appropriate license tag. I believe this is the case because the subject died before 1923. I am not an expert on this issue. why you dont you raise it in wikipedia:copyright questions. the image will likely be deleted if you dont add approriate copyright tag. --CarTick (talk) 18:45, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I am planning to raise the issue at Wikipedia:IMAGEHELP and would like to know the source of the image. --CarTick (talk) 18:50, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Whatever.Mayan302 (talk) 03:01, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Do you wanna who owns this pic.it is owned by the Nadar sagham.it is not owned by google o microsoft.i am the descendant of raja palavasamauthu, founder of the dakshina mara nadar sagham.if u dont wanna believe me u can go to any nadar association n figure out urself. o i can provide u with a document,signed by the NMS head, which asserts my rights to use this pic where i want to.wen i say i own dis pic it means,i, direct representative of nadar sagham, own it.if u ve seen dis pic elsewhere it means u r actually seeing somethin which belongs to the sagham.u r partially pushin me around jus i bcoz i edit nadar articles.well excuse me if i am not regular wiki editor.i am not breakin any wiki rule.spare ur threats for someone else.go ahead n try removin the pic.Mayan302 (talk) 08:02, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

That is good enough for now. I am not pushing you around. The picture which is about 100 years old can not have been taken by an average wikipedian. someone is going to nominate the picture for deletion unless the precise copyright tag and circumstances surrounding which the uploader came to own the picture is established. just trying to help. --CarTick (talk) 12:52, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

FYI, i started a thread here. hopefully this will resolve the issue. --CarTick (talk) 13:00, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

ok...Mayan302 (talk) 16:01, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

could you please answer the questions asked here by User:Graeme Bartlett. Pls let us know whether the image was previously published in any other media? when was it published? --CarTick (talk) 10:04, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Vsanthabaalan belongs to agamudaiya muthaliyaar. if u want put him in nadar list, please provide evidence thank you77.64.37.68 (talk) 06:35, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

just wondering

do u know what happened to User:Lindamd90? --CarTick (talk) 04:05, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

no.y??dude i am tryin my best to reach the head of the nms to get the certificate for the rettinasami nadar pic frm my place.my health is not upto the mark.i think i ll hav to go to madurai directly inorder to get it..it ll take time but i ll get itMayan302 (talk) 08:12, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

sorry about your health. --CarTick (talk) 13:14, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

take care

i am glad it is. take care. --CarTick (talk) 18:41, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

will do... :)Mayan302 (talk) 16:20, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Nadars and Ezhavas share similar history. they are cousins. Channar is a surname used by ezhavas which is a malayalam version of Nadars. even ezhava leader accepted the same. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3069080580760511681# — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keralone (talk • contribs) 04:33, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of R. Pichumani Iyer

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Mr. Pichumani is a notable person in Carnatic music.I ll provide you with the appropriate refs asap..Mayan302 (talk) 03:10, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Adi murai

Hi Mayan, the reason I removed those two sentences is simply because they are unnecessary. It's already mentioned later in the article that southern kalaripayat is also known as adi murai and that it's practiced by Nadars. To say that the southern style has features to distinguish it from the northern and central styles is redundant, because there are already sections for each sub-style. Obviously this wouldn't be the case if they were all the same. Yes the content is sourced, but it doesn't serve any purpose other than highlighting southern kalaripayat. If you don't want to remove it, then at least re-word it and move it to the section for the southern style. Morinae (talk) 09:43, 21 November 2011 (UTC).

Well southern kalari is a part of the article and it should be in the lead. I don't understand y you didn't try to remove the above line which states the art was practiced by some malayalee castes... It seems as if you were intentionally trying to remove southern kalari or nadarfrom the lead which is actually baseless. And I didn't include that line. The fact that it was practiced by the nadars of Tamil Nadu will be in the lead and it shouldn't removed. Someone should also include sentences about the northern, and central kalari in the lead. The article is already a mess without proper refs. Don't make it any worse. No offence. I can't agree with you. Mayan302 (talk) 12:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Very well then, at least allow me to improve the grammatically incorrect wording. Morinae (talk) 12:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Sure.. go aheadMayan302 (talk) 13:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Hardgrave

How big is the file? You can answer here - I am watching. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 09:26, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

28mb.i can compress it.Mayan302 (talk) 09:39, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

28 Mb seems pretty small - I thought that we might be talking Gb. I could accept that by email, if you can send it that way. Alternatively, you could upload it somewhere temporarily - I could dig out some info for this. Doing it the upload way means that you don't have to divulge your email address etc. - Sitush (talk) 09:49, 1 January 2012 (UTC

I uploaded the file usin filesonic.here is the link Hardgrave.however this book is more than 40 yrs old and it doesnt provide a lotta info abt the nadars south of thamirabarani.u might wanna check other books like the northern nadars by dennis templeman.another reliable book.ithink it was published in the year 1990 o somethin.i dont even have access to this book via googlebooks.i am on my way to a party. :)so see you later and wish u a happy newyear!!Mayan302 (talk) 10:27, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

also one more thing.let me know after downloadin.i have to delete the file..Mayan302 (talk) 10:29, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Got it, thanks very much. My best wishes to you for 2012 ... I hope that the party joint was jumpin'! - Sitush (talk) 10:52, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

)Mayan302 (talk) 06:50, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Caste sanctions

The Wikipedia community has permitted administrators to impose discretionary sanctions on any editor who is active on any page about social groups, explicitly including caste associations and political parties, related to India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Nepal. Discretionary sanctions can be used against an editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. If you engage in further inappropriate behavior in this area, you may be placed under sanctions, which can include blocks, a revert limitation, or an article ban. The discussion leading to the imposition of these sanctions can be read here. Please familiarise yourself with the information page at Wikipedia:General sanctions.

- Sitush (talk) 05:42, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Nadar, again

I've pretty much left you to it for several months at the Nadar article. If anything, it has got worse: poor sources, POV, undue weight, ridiculous statements etc. I'll be ripping it up a bit next week - this situation has gone on for long enough and you are practically a single-purpose account, so hardly best-placed to be neutral about things. Sorry, but you've had a lot of leeway. - Sitush (talk) 17:28, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

The para you just edited was mostly writen by Cartick( a non nadar,check history). I just added the last lines of the para based on an article writen by sanchita dass and a article writen by forbes. The rest of the article uses hardgrave . Which part is pov. Undue weight? Could you explain. Mayan302 (talk) 17:36, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I have edited several paragraphs. Practically every other one needs editing also; certainly, all those that appear to glorify the caste by confusing individuals with the caste as a whole. As for Hardgrave, well, that book is over 40 years old now and we have to take some care. - Sitush (talk) 17:41, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I was also planning to expand the article using templeman.But I really cant find the time. I ll try to expand the using it when I find time. Please free to edit the article to make it more npov. I have no objections. I am a little confused. Are you just talkin abt the nadars today para o the entire article.Mayan302 (talk) 17:45, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I wrote abt 95% of the article. But the shiv nadar line was not included by me!! Since it was included by other senior editors I didnt bother to look into it..Mayan302 (talk) 17:48, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

And one more doubt. The forbes article states that the nadars are close knit powerful community. Is that also not suitable.Mayan302 (talk) 17:52, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I completely forgot abt this.The article written by me was actually completely redited by you. I think you also revised the article. Dont you remember??Mayan302 (talk) 18:31, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Doubts

1. I dont understand why you removed the line 'the nadars are financially strong....' from the passage. Those are the exact lines from the article 'nadar votes remain divided' by sanchitha das [2]. The article explains why certain political parties need the nadar vote bank. The Nadars are a powerful community comes from a forbes article [3]. Is there some new new wiki rule that says I should not use magazines and newspaper as ref? Because seriously I didnt know.

2. I have never tried to include even a sentence which did not have a ref. So please dont try to bash me up for being a nadar.

3. Hardgrave ,as I have already said, is the only book out there which thoroughly explains the history of the nadars. The other books about the nadars simply quotes the contents of hardgrave. Even Templeman's book is not that thorough. Templeman's book is a study about the northern nadars. Yes the book does have certain lines that could be included into the article. But it is not as thorough like hardgrave. Since the book is mostly about the northern nadars, I was actually considering to write another article exclusively about the northern nadars.

4. There is still no book which provides insight about the nadars of 21st century. Thats why I had to use newspaper articles.Mayan302 (talk) 02:59, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

October -2014

This is your only warning; if you make personal attacks on other people again, as you did on Talk:Nadar (caste) and Nadar (caste) [4] [5] you may be blocked from editing without further notice. You are well aware of what is vandalism and what is not vandalism, calling any non-vandalism to be vandalism is a personal attack. Comment on issue, not on other people. Bladesmulti (talk) 13:36, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Good one. Who was vandalizing? You or me? Play this game somewhere else.Mayan302 (talk) 13:47, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

You still lack enough understanding of the word vandalism. This is your only warning, you are crossing 3 revert rule. You may stop reverting now, or you will be blocked from editing. Bladesmulti (talk) 14:57, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I can understand that. But dont think for a second that I am going to give up very easily.Mayan302 (talk) 15:02, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Of course I don't want you to give up editing. Bladesmulti (talk) 15:09, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Sivakasi riots

This message has been sent in response to your recent message to me. The claims that are made on the article titled Sivakasi riots of 1899 are not only imaginative but are also found to be tendentious in nature. The article also relies heavily on old, non reliable, expired and repeatedly repudiated sources that severely lack academic and scholarly consensus. I believe you understand what neutral point of view is, if not please check the link. Also, I suggest you read and understand the Wikipedia policies and guidelines before you make any further contributions. Thank you. Sabarikarthik1991 — Preceding undated comment added 14:29, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I am familiar with the rules of wikipedia. Thank you. The article mainly relies on Hardgrave's Nadars of TamilNad(published by University of California) and so far its the best available anthropological reference on this topic(anyone knows that). Every sentence of the article is supported by a proper reference. Neutrality point of view doesnt mean you can alter or remove a sentence ,which has a proper reference, as you see fit. In other words there is no wikipedia rule that permits you to remove\alter a sentence with proper reference. More ever your edits were not constructive and you did not add any sort of reference to support your claims. So without any doubt you were vandalizing the page. You also used abusive language and that explains you are either against this caste or this riot(or God knows what). I dont think you are here chatting with me because of wikipedia rules. I am sorry to be blunt. Please refrain from editing the article. If you continue to add abusive sentences to the article based on your original research, your account will be blocked by some admin for sure. Thank you. Mayan302 (talk) 09:12, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Hardgrave's Book

Hi, I am from Kanyakumari district. I have been thinking about the demographics of my place. I noticed that you have edited a substantial part of the article on Nadars and that you have a copy of the book by Hardgrave. Will be really grateful if you could share it. Thanks, AnandK | Talk | Contribs 17:59, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry. I dont have the ebook with me now. Mayan302 (talk) 13:59, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

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Careful with Accusations

Hey Mayan302, how are you? I see you are very interested in the Nadar article. I encourage you to check the edit summaries and differences so you could see what was added and what was not. I propose that you attempt to talk it out before you start accusing people of POV editing and sourcless statements. I literally just moved a couple statements around, removed one or two that I could not find, and added one saying what OBC's were (the part that said that they were OBC was already there to my knowledge). Everyone other than you, Cartick, and the other guy are not out to defame the Nadar caste or anything. I hope we can effectively collabrate on this heavy POV area of caste based articles Rabt man (talk) 16:41, 17 January 2016 (UTC

For your information, almost all the sections of this page were written by me. Somelines were included by Cartick. And then Sitush did the copy editing job. The article was just fine before your intervention.Mayan302 (talk) 03:13, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Just some constructive criticism, but the article reflects bad grammar and heavy POV. I personally think the structure could use some reorganizing as well. I understand that this has been your main focus for quite a while, so I will leave it at that. Do what you want, someone will eventually clean it up a ton. Im going to ignore the Nadar article for a while, but know that claiming ownership of this article is not going to get you anywhere. Good luck, cheers, and happy editing. Rabt man (talk) 03:20, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Heavy POV. How so? All the lines have refs. I have included many lines which speak about the community's former status. We can expand the Nadars today section. Writers are only interested in the nadar's past. I am actually for an admin, to finish the job. If I wanted to expand this article, I would have done it a long time ago. But I am quite sure that it is difficult to expand the article due to the lack of refs. No one actually came forward to edit it properly. You removed most of the introduction section. The introduction section and the info box are essential for readers who are not looking for the big picture. I dont understand why you did that. You removed a sentence and also an entire section(Martial Arts). Now you claim that you didnt see the refs(the reference job must have been done cartick or sitush). How convenient? As I already said, it was completely rewritten by Sitush. I am a software writer, a law student and an aspiring politician. I literally dont have any time for wiki now. I dont own this article. I dont want to own it. I am trying my best to stay away from this article. Mayan302 (talk) 04:20, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

I would like to point out once more that I didnt remove anything from the introduction. I moved a ton of the stuff from the intro into the actual article. I removed the stuff which wasnt verifiable. The article as a whole could use some stuff about their historical traditions, history, etc and the strucuture and grammar could be improved. This is just a suggestion. I removed the infobox because it only includes stuff about their location and religion. The infobox detracts from the aesthetic appeal of the article, but that is a minor suggestion. I suggest you tell the admin to focus on those things, primarily grammar and aesthetics. I could not find any evidence about the martial arts section as it did not have the proper verifiability. Anyone could just give a link to a book and say that is says in the text. You provided the page, so I am going to assume it is there. You could stay away from wikipedia whenever you want, no one is stopping you. Good luck with your studies. Rabt man (talk) 17:37, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Nadar (caste)

Hey Mayan302, How do you say that Nadar Mahajana Sangam (nadarmahajanasangam.com) is not a reliable source? Your statements are only based on hardgrave's opinion. You should try to understand the neutrality and policies of wiki. Please go through the policies-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view Don't try to make someone's opinion as fact. Why are you not accepting other sources? You are trying to change the history of particular caste and Tamil Nadu. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nanjil01 (talk • contribs) 05:02, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Sorry to be blunt. But you dont know anything about WP:RS. Nadar Mahajana Sagham is not Oxford University. Only books that are published by reliable publishers(like Oxford University) can be used here. I didnt invent these rules. So dont ask me why. If I dont revert your edits, someone else will. The lines from NMS were actually written by a local author called Immanuel. Which is from time immemorial an unreliable source and the admins here will never allow you to use Immanuel's book as a reference. Go through the rules properly before you edit articles like Nadar(caste). Thank you.Mayan302 (talk) 06:08, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

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Nadar (caste) - Christian Nadars

Johnson.devaraj (talk) 13:59, 15 September 2018 (UTC) In the deleted text, for which text or sentence, do you require a reference

The following text are true and I can substantiate every line.

The Nadar Mahajana Sangam and Dakshinamara Nadar Sangam are the two apex bodies of Nadars. Both Hindu and Christian Nadars contribute funds to these sangams.

Under the British rule, anglican missionaries propelled the socio-economic status of the Nadars. Missionaries established various educational institutions, Churches, and hospitals in the areas where Nadars were densely populated. During a widespread famine, and at the time of a Cholera outbreak, at the Madras presidency, missionaries supported the Nadars with medicine and funds. These missionaries also paved way for the Nadars to be employed at their educational institutions, hospitals, and government institutions. In this way, the Missionaries laid the foundation for the Christian Nadars livelihood.

It is significant to say that in times of crisis, the primordial loyalty of caste prevails with the Nadars rather than their religious identity – Christian Nadars Join Hindu Nadars or remain aloof. In the past, marital ties were also possible between between a Hindu Nadar and a Christian Nadar. At present, opinion on the departed Anglican missionaries support intentions, that led to a large number of Nadars embracing Christianity during the British Raj rule in India, differ between a Hindu Nadar and a Christian Nadar. Johnson.devaraj (talk) 13:59, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Christian Nadar

Johnson.devaraj (talk) 14:21, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

"the first congregation of Nadars was started at Vaddakankulam with the conversion of Nadar women", the above text in your article contradicts the fact that the first Christian Nadar settlement was created at Mudalur. I believe that this article is about Nadars.

Please check the following link

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=KZ9mqiLgkdEC&pg=PA44&dq=mudalur+nadars+missionary&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiPkPLQmL3dAhXEEHIKHfvkDtAQ6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=mudalur%20nadars%20missionary&f=false

Page number 44.Johnson.devaraj (talk) 14:21, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

You're using fake refs to add your own original research. Add actual proof or refrain from editing. If there are contradictions, please use the talk page. We can sort it out. But don't add content which are not supported by refs. That will be original research.Mayan302 (talk) 17:27, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Please find out the difference between congregation and settlement. They are not the same thing.Mayan302 (talk) 17:38, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Johnson.devaraj (talk) 08:31, 16 September 2018 (UTC) I think the Nadar women which is discussed, would have been converted by the Roman Catholics, as it is written. Mudalur was the first Christian settlement initiated by the Anglican Communion. I would like to suggest that you can add the text Roman Catholic Congregation

It is clearly mentioned under the title "The missionary influence", in Hardgrave book, the Jesuits are involved in Vadakkankulam conversion. Jesuits belong to Roman Catholic denomination.

Johnson.devaraj (talk) 12:16, 16 September 2018 (UTC) I tried to find if there is any book written after the year 2000, that may show a population survey which has been done on Nadars, but wasn't able to find one. I would like to suggest you to add these details to the Christian Nadar section, rather than showing a survey data from a book which was written in the year 1970. Though the relevant reference link that you have provided for the below sentence does not seem to serve the purpose.

Christian Nadars numbered 150,000 as opposed to 1.5 to 2 millions of Hindu Nadars in Madras state

Johnson.devaraj (talk) 12:16, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Christian Nadar

Johnson.devaraj (talk) 07:54, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

I have made a few references, which one you say is fake. Do you want me to discuss on each reference. If you agree, we can discuss on those deleted references one by one. I can also provide alternate reference in case if a reference does not meet Wikipedia standards.

It is very surprising that there are very few lines on this article page Nadar (caste) about the Christian Nadars, when there are numerous number of books written about them, by different authors, on different occasions. I hope that there is no hidden agenda for limiting this article to Hindu Nadars. The scope of writing more about Christian Nadars is still open.

I understand that you have taken a big effort till now in drafting this page. However, in case if you agree, I would like to support adding content to this article.

Johnson.devaraj (talk) 07:54, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

You can extend it if you want to. I don't have any agenda. I am Agnostic. So don't start. What ever you write must be supported by a proper reference. In other words, you can't write anything (not even a single line) without a reference. I hope you understand this. If your lines are not supported by a reference, they will be removed. There's a rule calledWikipedia:No original research. Go through it. Never misinterpret the contents of the source. Not even slightly. Use your own words to explain the contents of the reference(you can't copy the contents of the source. That will become a copyright vio). But don't alter the explanation given by the reference. Wikipedia is not about what you feel or think. It's simply a collection of articles based on valid references. Make sure you use a valid reference. Search for materials written by scholars(Hardgrave is good). References from Christian missionaries are not always good. What you wrote was completely irrelevant to the reference you provided. And please don't tell me, you followed all the rules properly.

This page is about the Nadars generally. For reasons unknown, it seems like Hindutva to you. I did contribute a lot to this article. But I wasn't the only contributor. The population part was not written by me. The line gives a rough estimation, which is not exactly a bad thing. You will never find a source which will accurately tell you about the Nadar population. Roman catholics ARE Christians. As I already said, we can only include something which is there in the source. Nothing more or less. I will support you if you follow the Wikipedia rules properly. Thank you for listening.Mayan302 (talk) 15:58, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Johnson.devaraj (talk) 19:11, 18 September 2018 (UTC) Dear Mayan

Hope this following sentence which you have quoted may not be acceptable according to Wikipedia standards.

References from Christian missionaries are not always good. This sentence of yours could be biased.

Thank you for the suggestion (Hardgrave). It is surprising that when Hardgrave have extracted information, referenced from books and letters of missionaries like Robert Caldwell, Margoschis, Pascoe, Sharrock, Rhenius, James Hough, Sattampillai, Sargunar, why should a content contributor be advised not to refer from Christian Missionaries.

According to the Wikipedia standards, or by any known good standards, you cannot presume on another content contributor, on what he/she would have thought on. I do not understand why the term Hindutva is being correlated against my inquisitiveness.

Thank you for all the advise that you have offered though I never tried to prove something here, except raising doubts on behalf of wiki readers. I always feel that they should read an article which is fact, and not an article that could be under suspicion that it may be biased or may have an hidden agenda.

Do you really need to show a data on population, which yourselves have admitted as a rough estimate, and inauthentic.

Indeed, Roman Catholics are also called as Christians. But there are substantial difference between a Roman Catholic and Anglican Communion, when the former practice idol worship, and the latter oppose on that. Roman Catholic marriages are not recognized at the Anglican communion Church, and vice versa. The same applies to a Hindu marriage with both the discussed christian denominations'.

Though you have offered to lend our support on a criteria, I do not seek your support. However, I thank you for volunteering on that.

I have found these following sections under the subcastes of Nadar (caste) article page. In India, the authorized caste certificate has been issued or being issued by a Tehsildar / taluk office. There are authentication by books / documents that caste certificates are issued to people, by Tehsildar / taluk office as Hindu Nadar and Christian Nadar. But for the below mentioned subcaste, there are no authentication by Tehsildar / taluk office.

1. Karukkupattaiyathar
2. Mel-nattar
3. Nattathi
4. Kodikal
5. Kalla

Apart from the Hardgrave's book, I do not find evidences substantiating the above discussed Sub-caste. The content would be much better if an evidence is given on these sub-caste people to the current period or after the year 2000. The content would be interesting if it elaborates on how they live rather than what they did in the past.

There are other article pages which requires my attention. Hence am moving on.

Do not reply to me, as we both are not answerable / required to answer, to one another, but to the wiki reader.

Thank You.

Johnson.devaraj (talk) 19:11, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

I have to reply. Hardgrave is a thorough anthropological work. So you can't remove anything which comes from that book. FYI, the TN government(Thuthukudi gazette published in 2007) gazette also contains the details of the Nadar subcastes. Subcaste culture is present in many South Indian communities. However we didn't completely use the contents of the gazette, as it's not a very reliable source. Yes. Christian missionaries are not always accurate because they don't use anthropological methodologies. However you can use it to include details irrelevant to anthropology. FYI, Hardgrave also debunks many theories from Christian missionaries. I didn't write these rules. Ask Wiki. Records from a Thasildhar office will just have minor details of a particular caste. You know a lot about Christianity. I am impressed. But you need refs to back up your claims. If you accuse me for being biased, I don't have to shut up and listen to what ever you say. Duh. I didn't VOLUNTEER anything your highness. Right, I can clearly understand that you're doing all this for the sake of the readers. The readers could have read the contents of the section you included recently. They were not exactly true. Mayan302 (talk) 11:17, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Johnson.devaraj (talk) 16:19, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Since you have said that the TN government (Thuthukudi gazette published in 2007) gazette contains the details of the Nadar subcastes, you can also share the information on which date the said gazette has been released.

The following sentences of yours could be quite irrelevant to our discussion. You could have helped these replies of yours' with appropriate substantiation;

1. Subcaste culture is present in many South Indian communities. I agree - but how this explanation of yours connected to Nadars.
2. Hardgrave also debunks many theories from Christian missionaries. - You could have substantiated with evidences.
3. You know a lot about Christianity. I am impressed - Do not judge me.
4. your highness - to whom are you referring to.

Am discussing on the content which is at present displayed on the article page, which may give an impression to a wiki reader that this Nadar (caste) wiki page could qualify to be called as an appropriate example for the selective exposure theory wiki page.

Johnson.devaraj (talk) 16:19, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Ooh. I am so scared. The reference(Thuthukudi gazette) is sitting in the article. And stop making threats. You are just making me laugh. I deal with socks all the time. If you want to add something to the page, this is the rule. And please read the article thoroughly before filling my page with unimportant messages.I am just reacting to your behaviour. Read the book by Hardgrave. Books written by anthropologists have more weightage here than other works. I already said that. You can also go through Northern Nadars by Dennis Templeman (Oxford University). However Templeman's book is mostly about the Virudhunagar Nadars.Mayan302 (talk) 16:43, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Here: Sinnakani. Tamil Nadu State:Thoothukudi District, Volume 1. Government of Tamil Nadu, Commissioner of archives and Historical Research. pp. 233–242

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Nadar caste

First u see tamilnadu backward class list — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4072:6D8A:9675:0:0:7A0B:2708 (talk) 02:19, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Use the nadar caste talk page. The backward caste list is simply a list mentioning castes that are eligible for positive descrimination. The proof I have provided in the nadar caste talk page speaks about this very clearly. Unless you provide a valid ref to prove that they're the same caste,I will continue to revert your edits.Mayan302 (talk) 06:43, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

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Dear Brother,

Bro Edhukku Ellathayum Remove panni viduringa.?

Nadar saanar gramani indha 3 caste UNRESERVED GENERAL ( FORWARD COMMUNITY) NEENGA GOVERNMENT SECRATRIATE PARLIMENT LA PAARUNGA. NAAN NADAR CASTE KEDAYATHU BUT NADAR CASTE KU NERAYA ROYAL HISTORY IRUNDHUM AVANGA USE PANNIKA MAATINGURANGA . GOVERNMENT GAJJET LA NADARGAL MATTUM DHAN MOOVENDARS( CHERA,CHOLA,PANDAYAS) NU IRUKKU IRUNDHUM YEN NEENGA REFUSE PANDRINGA NA ENAKKU THERILA.NEENGA YEN EPPUDI IRUKINGA BRO . ANYWAYS THANK YOU BROTHER 😊❤️♥️ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.198.108.121 (talk) 09:33, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

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