User talk:M. Dingemanse/Archive12

EDIT

My talk archives

• Archive 1 (back to August 2004)
• Archive 2 (October - December 2004)
• Archive 3 (January - February 2005)
• Archive 4 (March 2005)
• Archive 5 (April - May 2005)
• Archive 6 (June 2005)
• Archive 7 (July - August 2005)
• Archive 8 (September - October 2005)
• Archive 9 (November - December 2005)
• Archive 10 (January - February 2006)
• Archive 11 (March - April 2006)
• Archive 12 (May - August 2006)
• Archive 13 (September - October 2006)
• Archive 14 (November 2006 - January 2007)
• Archive 15 (February 2007 - onward)

Prenasalised consonants vs. Nasal compounds

I guess they are just 2 ways of saying the same thing? Jacky's site (the one linked to at the bottom of Bantu languages) calls them "nasal compounds". So, how long before these links turn blue: Ur-Bantu, Proto-Bantu, Bantu Language Reconstructions (BLR), Bantu Language Reconstructions 2 (BLR2)? I guess it's not easy being a Bantuist with all these methods of comparing the languages? The info on the internet is very sparse and a bit inaccessible. Jacky's site is horribly outdated and the BLR2 site is an absolute nightmare! I still haven't gotten round to working out how to use that weird search engine. The info I put on the talk page for Bantu languages should be part of Ur-Bantu. I would need to do quite a bit of research to write that completely properly, so I won't be doing that anytime soon... How did your thesis go? It's still being evaluated, right? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 18:23, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they are; it is my impression that 'prenasalised consonants' is a bit more common.

As for the red links, yeah, how long? Deeply immersed in Yoruba still, I'm not going to do it... Besides, I've never had a crush for historical-comparative linguistics really.

On a sidenote, I think it should be Bantu Lexical Reconstructions (and the name most tightly connected with the first version is A.E. Meeussen). The term Ur-Bantu dates from Carl Meinhof, but today the most common name for this is Proto-Bantu (also a red link, as you noted).

Oh boy, there is so much work to do... However, I suggest to read up on it first, because otherwise your results might be just a little too much biased towards Meinhof (which has long been superceded by more recent research, e.g. Meeussen, Guthrie, Bastin, Schadeberg, etc.) and South-African Bantu (Doke).A good place to start reading on these things would be Heine & Nurse's (2000) African languages. More detailed information can be found in Bendor-Samuel & Hartell's (1989) The Niger-Congo languages. And obviously you shouldn't miss the recent volume edited by Derek Nurse (2003), The Bantu languages.

<cough> and my thesis is almost ready... — mark ✎ 16:30, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Jetha Lila

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the kind words. I sometimes get a bit discouraged when people try to throw away information. I am a bank history geek, especially of banks that have faded into obscurity or of bank branches and operations that they have closed. I realize that this is a minority interest, but I would like to see Wikipedia become a repository of such information so that in the future some scholar won't have to duplicate my labors.

A long time ago I did African Studies at the BA level as a bolt-on to a Poli Sci degree. Unfortunately life intervened so I never got to try my Swahili while I still had some. However I do have some more Africa-related bank info and will add it.

I love your maps.

Best regards,

Acad Ronin 20:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree - that's the whole point of Wikipedia. And I never understand why people can't value such laboriously harvested information. Anyway, I'll be looking forward to your new articles. I thought you might be interested in the Africa-related regional notice-board. Thank you for the compliment. Kwa heri, — mark ✎ 16:39, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Yoruba

Hello Mark,

I've translated the article into German. Can you help with the works, cited as Bambgose (1966) and Sachnine (1997) in the text? They are missing in the literature-section (or cited differently)! Please correct the English version (if you can).

Best wishes - Grapelli 10:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Grapelli. Sachnine (1997) is a nice Yoruba-French dictionary; I used it in a recent addition but had not yet added it to the references; I've done that now. Bamgbose (1966) is "A Grammar of Yoruba", cited under "Grammars and sketches". Kind regards, — mark ✎ 11:09, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Grapelli 12:12, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

WP:RFAR

It is highly inappropriate to edit another user's statement in a request for arbitration. Phil Sandifer 12:08, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

You are right, it was inappropriate. People do inappropriate things sometimes. — mark ✎ 17:00, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

They should, perhaps, consider not doing so deliberately. Phil Sandifer 18:49, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

We are in full agreement here. — mark ✎ 19:05, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

This leads to the question of why you did it. Phil Sandifer 20:16, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

That question was answered in my edit summary. — mark ✎ 21:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

If I may butt in, I think Mark was trying to save us all some grief—"ignore all social conventions", or something. Please consider the change in that light. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 21:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Re:Yorùbá

Greetings Mark Dingemanse!

In reply to your question and curiosity, I had obtained the words from this website and most specifically from this Yorùbá section. (even though I am not one of their members).

Anyway, Mark, do you know of any native Yorùbá speaker who could help me translate this article into the Yorùbá wikipedia language edition?

Regards -- Jose77 21:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for the explanation. As for native speakers of Yoruba, User:HRH used to edit a lot but I haven't seen him around for some time; and the same holds for User:Aadebayo. Also, User:AkinAjia seems to be taking a break. — mark ✎ 19:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Thankyou very much for your references above. User:HRH has managed to help me translate the article into Yoruba. However somehow the diacritical marks were absent. --Jose77 22:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC) View here

GA spam on featured template

hi, i see that the "good article" spam has been put back in Template:featured despite objections from several users. this seems to be the way the GA project works: boldly putting something into a page that doesnt want it, then claiming consensus is required to *remove* it again (consensus is never required to put it there in the first place).

this is exactly the same behaviour as witnessed on the attempt to create an article space "good article" star, which i & raul654 finally managed to have deleted (a huge effort since they had already spammed a 1000 articles with it), and on the Community Portal where this non-policy wikiproject has pride of place - its apparently far more important than any of the other dozens of collaborations!

they even had the cheek to remove the "non-policy process" template from the top of their project pages claiming they now had "enough support to be policy" - this is despite clear consensus on the talk page that its NOT policy. an attempt to put it back was quickly removed.

i would appreciate any comments on the template's talk page. i'm really fed up with fighting these GA spam battles everywhere, its quite tiring. why do they have to constantly spread their GA spam everywhere? hope you can help! Zzzzz 09:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh boy, there we go again... I'll see about commenting there. However, it is my experience that it is nearly useless to argue against a well-organized WikiProject. This is one of the points where the good old Wikipedia approach simply doesn't seem to scale. — mark ✎ 12:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

cheers. yes thats been my experience too, makes me want to quit wikipedia for good! Zzzzz 12:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorted out. But how long will it be before it comes up again? — mark ✎ 15:23, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Northeastern Extent of Afro-Asiatic Languages

In Image:Afro-Asiatic.png (which you so graciously created), what are those pockets in the Iran/Afghanistan border area? Much thanks - Adam Mathias 19:15, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

These are pockets of various Arabic dialects. I've based that part of the map on Harry Stroomer's (2002) map of the Afro-Asiatic languages (full references to the map sources can be found at Image:African language families.png). — mark ✎ 20:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Igbo people edit

Cheers, (controversial theory, instead of controversial historian) although I still think readers should make up thier minds with thier own brains as to what constitues as controversial and what doesn't. They don't need to be told. Simply let them read the accompanying theory. Fair do's on the "historians" to "historian" typo.

I disagree, and have responded on Talk:Igbo people. — mark ✎ 19:19, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, I am sorry to say that the 'historian/historians' thing does not look like a typo, unless of course your previous addition of "like" was a typo too. But that's probably nit-picking. — mark ✎ 19:24, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikiproject Ethiopia

Wow, that was quick. I wasn't expecting anyone to notice it for some time (i.e. until I finished the outline and left messages on talk pages). Out of curiosity, how did you notice its creation?

ዮም(Yom)^{Leave a message} 06:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah, hadn't realised it wasn't 'gone live' yet. I came across it because you sig links to your contributions. — mark ✎ 06:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's live now. I guess you'll be interested more in the linguistic section, so maybe you could start up the discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:Wikiproject Ethiopia/Transliteration, since I know people might be a little slow in beginning discussion at first.
ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 04:09, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

mooo.com

The lag time is usually a few minutes. Therefore I have probably added the link incorrectly, or there is another regex error higher in the spam blacklist. I will be looking at this immediately. - Amgine 18:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

That's great, thanks so much. — mark ✎ 18:18, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

nigeria.mooo.com testing...

Yes, I know. And no, I have no clue as to why. As you can see, I've been doing quite a number of things to try to fix it. - Amgine 06:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that you've been trying to fix a lot of regexes. I have put a notice on Eloquence's talk page. Thanks! — mark ✎ 06:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. The problem was in the software, which had been limited to 25k length of regex. This has been temporarily increased, and we're working on a longer-term solution. - Amgine 20:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for ensuring that the mooo links were added to the spam blacklist and also for warning User:Wale Oguntade for the nasty personal attacks he left on my talk page.--Dayg1110 12:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome! My next guess is that they will start spamming geocities redirects to the same site, like http://geocities/seelagos1. But it's easy to add those to the blacklist, too so I'm waiting for the moment they realize that what they do is fruitless. — mark ✎ 12:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

And yes, that happened, and yes, four more urls were added to the blacklist on my request. — mark ✎ 07:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

About this thesis business...

I'm going through a 2003 PhD thesis entitled "Structured Quantum Programming" by Bernhard Omer and it seems rather verbose. The first part is basically a recap of Quantum mechanics history and techniques. From Planck's peculiar Mathematical trick through Einstein's Photo-electric effect paper and Bohr's atomic model to Heisenberg's linear algebraic formalism. Is all that necessary? Surely the reviewer would know all this stuff (but I'm sure glad it's there!)? You still not finished with yours? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 18:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, I finished it last week (save some minor formatting things)! — mark ✎ 19:56, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Great! How long would it take to review it? What title were you aiming for? You didn't answer me about the above mentioned thesis almost reinventing the wheel. Glad to see you've archived your talk page. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 07:59, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Mine is only an MA Thesis. As I see it, reviewing previous research is not so much reinventing the wheel, but rather summarizing its invention in order to improve it, i.e. to be able to say new things. If you didn't review previous research, the risk of reinventing the wheel would be greater. Also, the reviewer knows most of this stuff, but the reviewer is not all of your audience (at least that's what I would hope). — mark ✎ 13:48, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I guess it's also to show the reviewer that the candidate understands the key concepts? So who's the intended audience - the general public? How amazing does a thesis need to be to be accepted? Should it be your greatest work or the first in a long line? These doctors regularly do some amazing stuff, like J O Smith inventing waveguide synthesis and truncated IIR - I guess having the title means people expect more from you? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 19:44, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Definitely the first in a long line, but at the same time I found it difficult to aim for less than a great work. And yes, reviewing previous research also shows that you understand the key concepts, but you're supposed to know these anyway - it's more interesting if you happen to know more than could be expected. I don't think anyone writes a thesis with the general public as intended audience; it's usually more specific stuff, of interest mainly to others with a background in the discipline (in my case, linguistics).

I think having a title means people expect more from you. Also, they know roughly what to expect. — mark ✎ 20:12, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Say I have an idea for a linguistics paper. How would I find out about other papers written on the specific topic, or is that going in the wrong direction? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 20:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

A good start is searching a good university library on the topic. Even better would be to look up the topic in a specific linguistic bibliography (printed or online). A very good online one, freely accessible, is Bibliographie Linguistique. Also, if this is not just hypothetical, I'd be happy to help you out by looking for relevant publications. Best, — mark ✎ 21:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It may stay completely hypothetical. I realise I would need to do tonnes of research to see past opinions of the subject, and it's so simple I may find that someone else has already wrote it (but Science always seems obvious in retrospect). More immediately I could write about a topic in music software. See my query on User talk:Rbj which he ignored (between you and me, rbj is an absolute ashole; no wonder he got involved in the Bogdanov Affair). Shall I explain my idea further? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 05:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, tell me. — mark ✎ 11:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

(remember to wait for me to sign before responding) The Sesotho languages have 9 vowels. This high number is due to the fact that a: the southern African langs have separated the 2 mixed vowels to 4 vowels b: unlike many other Kintu langs they still have the close vowels. The high vowels have dropped to half-close (perhaps to increase the contrast?). However, under certain conditions the half-close vowels are pronounced high (resulting in some common misspellings).

So Maloti (the Drakensberg mountains) is commonly misspelt "Maluti", the name "Molefi" (from "ho lefa" - "to pay") is often misspelt "Molifi" (notice how no one misspells the Setswana equivalent "Molefe"), "selomi" ("period pains" from "ho loma" - "to bite/itch/be painful") is more often than not written as "selumi" (I think this spelling is the standard!). I'm thinking of investigating the underlying causes (tone, positions of sorrounding vowels...). Sound like a good idea? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 15:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Comparative phonology is not really my cup of tea, but I think it might be worth investigating. A cursory glance at some linguistic databases learns that there do not seem to be any recent papers on precisely this topic; but it might well be buried in a larger volume. I'll take a second look. — mark ✎ 06:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I've emailed a certain well published M Mochabe from the National University of Lesotho to see if she could give me some advice. This is not really comparative. I'll be looking at Sesotho, and perhaps see what happens in other 9 vowel Kintu langs (know of any?). I saw this mentioned in passing in some introductory text on phonology for Setswana teachers. I can't remember where I picked up the term "vowel raising". Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 10:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

More or less a random match (there probably are more of them): according to Kutsch-Lojenga (2003), quite some languages in what Ethnologue calls the Bira-Huku group (Guthrie's D.30; most of them spoken in Congo DRC) have nine-vowel systems. Among them Bila, on which her paper is, but she also mentions Budu, Nyali and Ndaka. The vowel systems of these languages involve open/close, front/back, and +ATR/-ATR contrasts (with these three binary features, you can characterize exactly 8 vowels) and a central back vowel /a/.

As is very common in languages with so many vowels, there is also a system of vowel harmony, involving the ATR (advanced tongue root) feature. Maddieson's paper in the same volume is a good phonetic-phonological overview of many Bantu languages (see pp. 15-23 for info on the vowel systems).

Setswana, like Sesotho, has nine vowels; in general, southern Bantu languages do not seem to have vowel harmony and their nine-vowel systems are thought to derive from seven-vowel systems.

• Kutsch-Lojenga, Constance (2003) 'Bila (D32)', in Philippson & Nurse (eds.) The Bantu Languages, 225-256.
• Maddieson, Ian (2003) 'The sounds of the Bantu languages', in Philippson & Nurse (eds.) The Bantu Languages, 15-41.

(you might like to merge these sections and move them to the bottom of this page) Of course Setswana has 9 vowels, since it is one of the Sesotho languages. What do you call it when the open mid-vowels become close mid-vowels in Sesotho? This happens when they're followed by close and half close vowels or consonants formed by assimilating them. The e in "ho reka" and "ho rekisa" is 2 different vowels. Same with the o in "ho bona" and "ho bontsha". I think I mentioned this in Sesotho. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 22:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

The question is whether it's really 2 different vowels (i.e. a real phonemic contrast, or two allophones of one vowel (i.e. two different phonetic realizations of one and the same phoneme, under the influence of different environments). Isn't bontsha the causative form of bona (causatives and other verb extensions aren't mentioned in Sesotho language)? In that case, it would be the same vowel phoneme underlyingly, with a different phonetic realization when followed by the causative extension. — mark ✎ 07:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm limited to 512 chars per post. So I can't add to a section and then save it. Yes, both examples were causatives. Do you think it'd be wise to include all that info in the article? I was thinking of including a general survey of the parts of speech, or would that be a bit too much info? I can do it at home and quickly put it in the article when I get to the internet. I think Katherine Demuth was right about Machobane's email possibly not working; I'll try someone else. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 10:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I've merged the 2 sections and moved them to the bottom of your talk page. I hope you don't mind. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 07:39, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Bulu language

Hey, Mark. When you get a chance, do you mind dropping by Bulu language and giving it a look? It was added sometime today, but was simply translated from the French Wikipedia with no sources. I wrote up what I could find at Ethnologue and added the reference. Could use a read-through and a pretty infobox if you've got the time. Thanks, — BrianSmithson 17:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for alerting me, I'll look into it! — mark ✎ 19:05, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

CfD regarding cities and towns in Uganda

Hello Mark. You may be interested in the CfD regarding Category:Cities in Uganda and Category:Towns in Uganda that I have suggested. (See here). I reckon Category:Cities and towns in Uganda is fine. I did not dare to unilaterally delete them, so I took it to CfD just in case there are objections. --Ezeu 18:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Gogo language

Hi, Mark. This is just a quick not for when you're back. I've put together an initial draft of Gogo language (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). As I know nothing about the language, I thought it wise to let you know. — Gareth Hughes 13:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

continue

continue ur work with the nigeria article when your return. The fellows who made you leave have been banned. "account blocked indefinitely for spamming, personal attacks and legal threats. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ezihe (talk • contribs)

Thanks for the friendly note. However, it's mostly because I'm extremely busy in real life that I needed to take a wikibreak. And regrettably, the fellows that have been banned have just registered a few more accounts and they're back again. — mark ✎ 18:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Algerian Civil War

In view of your sterling contribution to the article, I was wondering if you could help me keep an eye on it when you're back - somebody seems intent on removing all reference to the army arriving at massacre scenes and refusing to help/turning people back, despite this being thoroughly well-sourced common knowledge, and unfortunately very few people seem to be watching it. - Mustafaa 22:26, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Mark. Regarding your suggestion on my talk page, Mutaffaa's post above is a perfect example of why I'm not bothering to engage in a sterile debate with him. I've already made my point on the talk page that we shouldn't be giving undue weight to the conspiracy theories and that they are disputed. Please look at the edit history yourself and you'll see that the claim that I'm "intent on removing all reference to the army arriving at massacre scenes and refusing to help/turning people back" is farcical and an utter misrepresentation of my objections and cited edits. Example: However, as Dr Youcef Bouandel notes; "Regardless of the explanations one may have regarding the violence, the authorities credibility has been tarnished by its non-assistance to endangered civilian villagers being massacred in the vicinity of military barracks."
On the other hand, what he says that is true, is that not enough people are looking at it -which is why an RfC would be helpful. Armon 12:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Freetown

Hello, I am the user you replied to on Samuel Ajayi Crowther's discussion page and I would be interested to know where to find information on Sierra Leone Creoles, the extent of the survival of their original culture and language(Crowther is a good example of course but I don't know any others) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Domsta333 (talk • contribs)

That's a very broad question. A good starting point would be the work of P.E.H. Hair, a historian specializing in West Africa during and after the Atlantic Slave Trade. — mark ✎ 13:01, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Deletion review for Template:Good article

hi, i hope you can take part in the deletion review debate for the above metadata template that puts a star on the article's mainpage (you voted in the original deletion debate). the vote is here Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2006 July 8 (scroll down for Template:Good Article section). thanks. Zzzzz 00:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for notifying me, I would have missed it otherwise but I do have a fairly outspoken opinion on this. Regards, — mark ✎ 21:23, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Email for you

Please confirm when received, thanks. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 14:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Received, thanks. Note that I'll try to stay out of this, as I've had my share of disputes. — mark ✎ 18:39, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Answer

I guess you deserve an answer to your question. The answer is quite simple. I've basically lost faith in this entire project. Basically, I've given up fighting against the systemic bias. It's an impossible task, I think, especially when it comes to language (and many other topics that I've taken interest in). Another thing is that when it comes to articles within certain areas like politics and religion (and linguistics to a large extent which, as you know, can be like a religion to many), it is simply impossible to maintain any level of neutrality and objectivity as there are all kinds of zealots standing on each other's shoulders to force their own agendas through and suppress whatever anyone else might contribute with. These things have made me think that Wikipedia has essentially hit an iceberg and is sinking like another Titanic, and I'm leaving the sinking ship along with the other rats. I've moved on to the more specialized wikia which, I think, offer much more accurate and less dubious information than Wikipedia, and which do not suffer that much from the systemic bias and catastrophic edits by laypeople, zealots and others. Among others I'm working on the Star Wars wikia and the Cognitive Linguistics wikia, the latter of which is desperately in the need of some attention. Anyway, I'm glad you liked my edits in the field of Cognitive Linguistics. As it happens, I think the Cognitive Linguistics articles and edits made by you and others are among the best articles when it comes to those topics I take interest in. I hope you and others like you will keep making high quality edits; perhaps you'll be able to heroically steer the Titanicpedia free of the iceberg, while we cowardly rats sit in our small wikia-boats awaiting to be rescued :-) I did have a valid e-mail address set up, but I removed it and will not set up another one. I can be contacted on the wikia I mentioned above. I hope this answers your question. Oh, I've added a deletion tag to the talk page (which I see someone has removed, so I'll add it again - or maybe you'd be so kind as to delete the talk page, since I've given you an anwer here). Sorry about this long edit, which will probably be the last edit by KEJ ever on Wikipedia.

Best wishes,

KEJ 21:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I may not necessarily share your overall view on Wikipedia, but I, too, see certain fundamental problems that will need to be overcome in order for Wikipedia to reach its stated goals. I cannot reply at length (partly because I haven't even made up my mind on these things), but be sure that your wise words are noted, and that your edits are highly appreciated. — mark ✎ 18:13, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Libya

Hi,

I've recently added Libya to the list of featured article candidates. Overall the candidature is going well with many of the objections now sorted out. The final concrete objection is with the article's prose. I have been the main contributor to the article and have been looking at it for the previous 9 - 10 months. My eyes no longer see it freshly, so I am not a suitable copy-editor!

To meet the final demand of copy editing, I have been advised to ask different people to edit parts of the article.

I would really love to get this article featured as you can probably see from the page's history! I've worked very hard on it and I see this as possibly being the final hurdle.

You can see the prose objections, mostly raised by Sandy, on the candidature page. If you have the time, please choose a section (Politics, Religion, Culture etc.) and copyedit, perfect, ace it! I would be very grateful with any help I can get.

Thanks a lot,

--Jaw101ie 16:55, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Article for deletion: Gnaa, Nigeria

The article Gnaa, Nigeria has just entered its 3rd AfD. There's been considerable debate in the past as to:

1. Does such a place even exist?
2. If a place does exist with that name, is it notable?
3. Is this all a hoax perpetrated by the other GNAA, the Gay Niggers Association of America; they issue press releases datelined Gnaa, Nigeria.

I understand you have edited Africa articles extensively -- if you get the chance, can you maybe take a look and render an opinion pro or con? Thanks, --A. B. 00:37, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Hm, it's been deleted. Though I'm sure it will be recreated within six months. — mark ✎ 20:07, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

african ethnic groups

as i mentioned before, i'm attempting to make a list of all black african ethnic groups.

it's turned out that the sheer number of them isn't the only obstacle.

apparently many of them have multiple names.

i've found THAT to be a bigger problem than the number of them. a LOT bigger problem.

Gringo300 10:07, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

(Referencing the earlier conversation) Yes Gringo300, that's probably the biggest problem. As I said before, I'm a little lost as to why you would even try to make such a list. Anyway, happy editing. Regards, — mark ✎ 10:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Articles you might like to edit, from SuggestBot

SuggestBot predicts that you will enjoy editing some of these articles. Have fun!

Stubs Mansi language Kazakh language ACÃPO Morphophonology Downdrift Selkup language Yukaghir languages Kom Ombo Languages of Iran Dene-Caucasian languages Aymara language Languages of Belize Chamorro language Palauan language Toro (kingdom) Votic language Inari Sami Choctaw language Language-independent specification

Cleanup Banyumasan language LDS Business College Modern Standard Arabic Merge Speech pathology Persepolis 2 Orquesta del Sol Add Sources Khanty language Taal language Ural-Altaic languages Wikify Bishnupriya Manipuri language KDEN (TV) Parag Expand Akkadian language Biblical Hebrew language Flying Nimbus

SuggestBot picks articles in a number of ways based on other articles you've edited, including straight text similarity, following wikilinks, and matching your editing patterns against those of other Wikipedians. It tries to recommend only articles that other Wikipedians have marked as needing work. Your contributions make Wikipedia better -- thanks for helping.

If you have feedback on how to make SuggestBot better, please tell me on SuggestBot's talk page. Thanks from ForteTuba, SuggestBot's caretaker.

P.S. You received these suggestions because your name was listed on the SuggestBot request page. If this was in error, sorry about the confusion. -- ForteTuba 12:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! Interesting choices. Thanks for pointing me to Taal language, an obsolete redirect which I have now deleted. I will look into the other suggestions in the time to come. — mark ✎ 20:05, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Uploading Pictures

what kind of pictures from the internet can be uploaded onto wikipedia without a copyright infringment? thanks (Neutrall 16:44, 28 July 2006 (UTC))

Hi Neutrall. There's a lot of documentation about this which I think will answer virtually all questions you have. Most importantly, there is Wikipedia:Image use policy, which outlines which images can be used. Then there is the more detailed Wikipedia:Copyrights, which explains at more length how to use materials from outside Wikipedia. Lastly, you might like the Copyright FAQ. I hope this helps. If you still have questions, it might be a good idea to post them on the talk page of one of the above pages, where the real copyright experts (I'm not one) are likely to find it. Kind regards, — mark ✎ 20:02, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

thanx.(Neutrall 13:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC))

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Hillman/Dig

I'll have to get back to regarding the question you just asked me, but in the mean time, I recall conversing with you regarding RoyLee, so you might be interested in the above MfD. ---CH 01:30, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Voted there. — mark ✎ 07:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Akzennay

Je leeft nog altijd, Mark! :] --ik ook.-- "Azul, Akzennay. If you say "I don't speak any good language", do you mean that you don't speak Tarifit well or that you don't consider Tarifit to be a good language? — mark ✎ 20:09, 1 October 2005 (UTC)"

Firstly, forgive me that i didn't see your question on my talk-page, I have a bad tradition to forget my passwords [I even forgot the password of my GSM :)]. Secondly and to the point, i speak a fluent Tarifit, but it is not very useful like as you can guess. It's almost unusable with exceptions [home and street]. By the way, you see i created a beautiful account.Read3r 14:19, 7 August 2006 (UTC) I contributed to the article ""The berber humans", i wrote about the name of the berbers. I believe it is new to the English Google. But i'm not sure whether it will get a honorable place in that article, or will be thrown to be a former contribution. :] Het is trouwens triestig om de libaneze premier Fouad Siniora te zien huilen.Read3r 20:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Aha, je spreekt ook nog eens Nederlands! Goed om te horen dat je vloeiend Tarifit spreekt. Spreek je dat met vrienden, of met je ouders (ik neem aan dat je het van hen geleerd hebt), of spreek je daarmee Marokkaans Arabisch of Nederlands? Hartelijke groet, — mark ✎ 20:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Toen ik in Morokko was, sprak ik het meest in Marokkaans Arabisch, omdat ik in een Arabischtalige stad woonde, maar toch was Tarifit mijn geliefde taal waarin ik sprak tegen de andere tarifittaligen. Maar nu ik hier ben, moet ik in het Tarifit spreken. want de meeste Marokkanen hier [Mijn kennis en vrienden] kunnen het Marokkaans Arabisch moeilijk begrijpen.Read3r 12:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Als je geïnteresseerd bent in de talen van Marokko (Tarifit, Tasoussit/Tashelhiyt, Marrokaans Arabisch, etc.) kan ik je de colleges van Prof. Harry Stroomer aan Universiteit Leiden aanbevelen! — mark ✎ 15:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Bedankt voor de tip! Maar ik denk dat die talen naast mijn studie in Marokko de grootste tijdverlies van mijn leven is. Ik spreek toch zeer goed tarifit, marokkaans arabisch, standaard arabisch. Als ik ooit de heer van mijn tijd zou worden [met andere woorden: economisch/werk onafhankelijk worden], dan zou ik de programmeertalen gaan leren. Met vriendelijke groetRead3r 18:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Re: Unreferenced

Great to see that my edit had the desired effect. :) What comes to my subpage, it's still in a very "proto-proto-state". Actually I got the idea last evening. I don't know how much it is feasible, but some like static quality articles and forced referencing system seem to have to be implemented in one way or another. I hope every contributor really understand the problem that is facing Wikipedia--I've seen too many regular user to get fed up and leave because of the lack of reliability. Wikipedia has huge potential, but if we don't keep the inforation in good shape, it'll become a huge mess.--JyriL ^talk 15:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Re Amos Tutuola

Hi Mark. Thanks for your quick revert. I wasn't sure and was lazy to verify it. Cheers -- Szvest 16:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up&#153;}

Happy to help! — mark ✎ 08:13, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Saw you on ANI

Hiya Mark, long time! Bishonen | talk 08:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC).

Hello Bishonen, long time indeed! Nice to run into you again. Now that my thesis is done (woohoo!) (yes, that's why I practically haven't made any sensible edits over the past half year), I'm ready to start bugging you again with articles on lesser known languages since I, of course, want to get them all up to featured status...

On a sidenote, I hope not to spend too much time on WP:AN/I. It tends to get on my nerves. — mark ✎ 20:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi, welcome back! —Nightstallion (?) 14:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

wrong image?

hi Mark Dingemanse ... your Image:Nubia today.png seems not to fit to the article Cataracts of the Nile, because there is the second cataract in Lake Nasser - Sven-steffen arndt 14:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sven-Steffen. Thing is, I made that image for the article Nubia, and it's called Nubia today for a reason as it depicts the current situation. Someone else added it to Cataracts of the Nile, but by the looks of it you are right and it doesn't fit. If I ever make a map picturing the old situation (no guarantees), I'll notify you. Kind regards, — mark ✎ 20:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Akie/ Akiek /Ogiek/ Okiek/ Mosiro

I'm trying to clear up the entries for Akie vs. Akiek vs. Okiek vs. Mosiro. Your work on the Dorobo article conflicts with the Ogiek language article, and both are muddied by some of the info from Ethnologue. Any clarifications you can add to these articles would be of great help. Malangali 16:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, please edit the List of ethnic groups in Tanzania as necessary.

Also, please join http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Afrophonewikis for a discussion of issues related to African language wiki projects. Malangali 16:56, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Malangali. As it happens, I have written the initial versions of these articles. At which points exactly does the info conflict? Also, I have deliberately tried to use as much printed sources as possible. Ethnologue is only a secondary source crunching info from primary sources into very short language profiles, so I always try to avoid depending on it if other sources are available. Its inclusion in those articles therefore should be seen as supplementary info. (By the way, I very much like your user page.) — mark ✎ 18:18, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Mark, I guess I'm mostly trying to clear up whether Akiek and Akie are separate people. Ethnologue (which you correctly point out is not the best source) gives a figure of 36,869 ethnic Akiek, but only 5,268 Mosiro, which your contributions say is one and the same with Akie. And then it is confusing to me whether either of these terms are one and the same with Okiek - is Akiek a subgroup of Okiek, or are they interchangeable? Malangali 13:51, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

• The Akiek, who live in Tanzania, are ethnically and linguistically related to the Ogiek of Kenya, and for that reason they are often considered a division of the Ogiek (e.g. by Corinne Kratz (1999), online version), and also Franz Rottland (1982).
• Based on Rainer en Vossen (1977) and Rottland (1982) I would consider this Ethnologue page erroneous. Mosiro is an Akie clan name according to both of these sources, so that would make Mosiro a subgroup of Akie.
• Finally, I think the Akie and Akiek are just the same. The introductory paragraph of Ogiek language, based on Rottland (1982), speaks of the Akiek of Kinare (Kenya) and the Akiek of Tanzania, but the distinction is only made there because the two shifted to different languages. The articles Akie and Akiek therefore will have to be merged. I wouldn't know what the best name is, although I would tend to go for Akie.
• Summarizing: Okiek (or Ogiek, as the people themselves prefer) is the most inclusive term. The Akiek are often distinguished from the Ogiek because they live somewhat removed from the Kenyan Ogiek groups. And Mosiro is the least inclusive term, being confined only to a small portion of the Tanzanian Akiek. — mark ✎ 14:55, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Austronesian languages?

Like your Niger-Congo map. Any chance you could make one for Austronesian languages? I know this is a big request... so many thanks in advance. Ling.Nut 00:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Other things I should have mentioned: there was a little talk about maps on the discussion page, but nothing was ever done, and at least one contributor disagreed that a map should be added. Also, there are subdivisions w/in Austronesian, of course. I dunno how detailed you'd wanna get, if you agree to make the map. I also dunno if it would be voted down or met with a yawn on the talk page. Tks!! Ling.Nut 00:55, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello Ling.Nut. Unfortunately, due to being very busy in real life, I will have to refuse your request. I hope you'll be able to find someone else! — mark ✎ 14:57, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Mark, I knew the request was a biggie when I asked, but I thought no harm in ... . I appreciate all the excellent work you're putting into other projects. Good luck on your real-life endeavors! Ling.Nut 15:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you were quite fast in replying there... — mark ✎ 18:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

My Bot

It was just going through Category:Ancient Egypt and sub cat's which is where my bot got the list. if you look History of Africa contains [[Category:Ancient Egypt|Africa]] which is why my bot tagged it i dont know if it should be in the cat or not but that is why it got tagged. Betacommand 16:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. I'll remove that category, I don't think it is a good one for that specific article. Kind regards, — mark ✎ 16:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)