User talk:Maniac379
Welcome!
[edit]Hello, Maniac379, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:
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Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or , and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! Izno (talk) 02:44, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
- Just so you know, I reverted your changes to List of Super Smash Bros. (video game) tournaments. You used primary or unreliable sources, which are prone to cause cruft in the pages. WP:VG/S#List includes a list of good sources for you to use in case you want to improve those pages. --Izno (talk) 02:45, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
- Hi Izno, yes I am new to Wikipedia. I can fully understand removing the wiki source but my other source was our tournament organizing website for these tournaments. All of the tournaments I added to the wiki can be found in detail on that website. These tournaments are not listed anywhere else really. I mean I noticed many other tournaments listed had no citations for their sources. As you can see I had plenty of tournaments to add and was going to add more... Maniac379 (talk) 02:49, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
- Your other source, smash.gg, is what we call a primary source. We don't use primary sources here generally. When you say "these tournaments are not listed anywhere else really", what that really means is that "no reliable source has commented on it", and because no reliable source has commented on it, we should not include it. The tournaments presently on the articles have a hit here or there on the video game custom search engine, but I haven't had a chance to examine each and every one in detail, or to include the sources that do as appropriate (I triaged the current content). The lists used to be much longer but were trimmed down after I recently went through looking for sources on the search engine. --Izno (talk) 03:12, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
- That is what I mean, I can't imagine for most of these tournaments a reliable source has commented on it. Again I am new to editing Wikipedia but why is a primary source not taken into consideration? As I was adding tournaments, I actually then found the smash wiki page for notable tournaments. You can see from size of tournaments alone there are many missing tournaments from the Wikipedia page. One of the reasons why it would become harder for tournaments to be commented on by a reliable source is that there have recently been many Smash 64 only tournaments. I imagine most of the tournaments you find in your search engine are mentioned somewhere as they are multi-game tournaments and more people across all games see them. Maniac379 (talk) 03:20, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
- Using primary sources lends itself to original research, which is bad, bad news for Wikipedia. It also doesn't tell us what we should write about very well: there are a lot of things which are published in primary sources (not to mention, all of fiction and nonfiction works!). We aren't here to document each and every person's desires, but only what other sources (not primary) have also written on in some depth: we want knowledge, which is information transformed by some analysis, something which primary sources do not do well (because they are conflicted and may not provide us with a balanced narrative).
- The reason I linked you to the page on which sources are okay to use is because I hope you stick around to use them. (I just went and found a source for Smash 4 at Umebura on ESPN; maybe you can add the source to the Smash 4 article.[1] --Izno (talk) 03:38, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
- I understand the sources link. As you may imagine Smash 4 is not Smash 64. To give you perspective, Smash 4 and Melee generally attract more than 5 times the attendance at their tournaments. They also have large tournaments nearly every weekend compared to our not once every 1-2 months. This is why information is so scarce. About the only 'reporting' anyone does is this website (thesmashwriters) if you want to take it into consideration. You have my changes where I added about half the tournaments I planned on. I was hoping to improve our chance of outreach in our community in case an interested party saw the wikipedia page but there is no way I will be able to find a source for every tournament. Actually I looked at the list of melee tournaments page and they cite smash.gg. Maniac379 (talk) 03:47, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not for promotion; it is not here to help you with outreach (though, believe me, I am sympathetic to your plight). As for the Melee page, I must have missed that one during my triage. --Izno (talk) 04:01, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
- Indeed. Although a Wikipedia page missing so much information...It really feels like more of a misinformation page. With so few tournaments listed compared to reality...
- In your link about OR I found it to be a little confusing as it says everything needs a source. It then gives an example that "The capitol of France is Paris" needs no source because we know it to be true and unlikely to be challenged. What is the case here? The list of tournaments page does not contain any writing or sentences, it simply is stating a couple of facts. This does not contradict the policy of interpretation but I see there is also the policy of not basing an entire article on primary sources. You feel like you have found secondary sources to have a number of tournaments on the page already, smash.gg results line up with what you have already. Does that not help verify the primary source, or the other way around, the whole page is not based off of the primary source. While the general population would not know either way, in the community we know these to be facts. I'm really trying to wrap my head around this. It also says if no reliable third party source can be found then the page should not exist. I would almost start to make this argument myself if only 1/10th of the largest national tournaments can be cited with a reliable source. Can smash.gg be made into a reliable source? All of the tournament details and information are added in by individuals. Maniac379 (talk) 14:23, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
- Any more thoughts? Maniac379 (talk) 01:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
- In your link about OR I found it to be a little confusing as it says everything needs a source. It then gives an example that "The capitol of France is Paris" needs no source because we know it to be true and unlikely to be challenged. What is the case here? The list of tournaments page does not contain any writing or sentences, it simply is stating a couple of facts. This does not contradict the policy of interpretation but I see there is also the policy of not basing an entire article on primary sources. You feel like you have found secondary sources to have a number of tournaments on the page already, smash.gg results line up with what you have already. Does that not help verify the primary source, or the other way around, the whole page is not based off of the primary source. While the general population would not know either way, in the community we know these to be facts. I'm really trying to wrap my head around this. It also says if no reliable third party source can be found then the page should not exist. I would almost start to make this argument myself if only 1/10th of the largest national tournaments can be cited with a reliable source. Can smash.gg be made into a reliable source? All of the tournament details and information are added in by individuals. Maniac379 (talk) 14:23, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
- Indeed. Although a Wikipedia page missing so much information...It really feels like more of a misinformation page. With so few tournaments listed compared to reality...
- Wikipedia is not for promotion; it is not here to help you with outreach (though, believe me, I am sympathetic to your plight). As for the Melee page, I must have missed that one during my triage. --Izno (talk) 04:01, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
- I understand the sources link. As you may imagine Smash 4 is not Smash 64. To give you perspective, Smash 4 and Melee generally attract more than 5 times the attendance at their tournaments. They also have large tournaments nearly every weekend compared to our not once every 1-2 months. This is why information is so scarce. About the only 'reporting' anyone does is this website (thesmashwriters) if you want to take it into consideration. You have my changes where I added about half the tournaments I planned on. I was hoping to improve our chance of outreach in our community in case an interested party saw the wikipedia page but there is no way I will be able to find a source for every tournament. Actually I looked at the list of melee tournaments page and they cite smash.gg. Maniac379 (talk) 03:47, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
- That is what I mean, I can't imagine for most of these tournaments a reliable source has commented on it. Again I am new to editing Wikipedia but why is a primary source not taken into consideration? As I was adding tournaments, I actually then found the smash wiki page for notable tournaments. You can see from size of tournaments alone there are many missing tournaments from the Wikipedia page. One of the reasons why it would become harder for tournaments to be commented on by a reliable source is that there have recently been many Smash 64 only tournaments. I imagine most of the tournaments you find in your search engine are mentioned somewhere as they are multi-game tournaments and more people across all games see them. Maniac379 (talk) 03:20, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
- Your other source, smash.gg, is what we call a primary source. We don't use primary sources here generally. When you say "these tournaments are not listed anywhere else really", what that really means is that "no reliable source has commented on it", and because no reliable source has commented on it, we should not include it. The tournaments presently on the articles have a hit here or there on the video game custom search engine, but I haven't had a chance to examine each and every one in detail, or to include the sources that do as appropriate (I triaged the current content). The lists used to be much longer but were trimmed down after I recently went through looking for sources on the search engine. --Izno (talk) 03:12, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
- Hi Izno, yes I am new to Wikipedia. I can fully understand removing the wiki source but my other source was our tournament organizing website for these tournaments. All of the tournaments I added to the wiki can be found in detail on that website. These tournaments are not listed anywhere else really. I mean I noticed many other tournaments listed had no citations for their sources. As you can see I had plenty of tournaments to add and was going to add more... Maniac379 (talk) 02:49, 21 August 2017 (UTC)