User talk:M. I. Wright

Welcome!

Hello, M. I. Wright! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. You may benefit from following some of the links below, which will help you get the most out of Wikipedia. If you have any questions you can ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or by typing four tildes "~~~~"; this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you are already excited about Wikipedia, you might want to consider being "adopted" by a more experienced editor or joining a WikiProject to collaborate with others in creating and improving articles of your interest. Click here for a directory of all the WikiProjects. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field when making edits to pages. Happy editing! Peaceray (talk) 14:44, 11 November 2019 (UTC) Getting Started Contributing to Wikipedia • Tutorial • Your first article The five pillars of Wikipedia • Simplified ruleset How to: edit a page • upload an image Getting Help Frequently Asked Questions Directories and indexes Where to: ask questions • make requests Tip of the day Request administrator attention Policies and Guidelines Neutral point of view • Reliable sources Verifiability • Citing sources • No original research What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons Manual of Style (Simplified) • Three-revert rule Copyrights • Non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism • Sock puppetry Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The Community Community Portal • Adopt-a-user program Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • Resolving disputes Build consensus • Village pump IRC channels • Mailing lists The Signpost (Wikipedia's newspaper) Things to do Be bold in editing • Help develop an article Maintenance • Peer review • Requested articles Join a WikiProject • Translating articles Cleaning up: General • Spam • Vandalism Miscellaneous Categories • Disambiguity • Stubs User pages • Talk pages Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

Help:IPA/Lebanese Arabic

First of all thanks for your help, much appreciated! Quick question, the difference between "primary vowel" and "variants, allophones" is still unclear to me: is the former the one mainly used and the latter the one used in specific situations/dialects? Also, in the case a word has a ــَـ fathah, how do I know if I should use a, æ, ɑ~ʌ? Is there a rule regarding the preceding consonant, for example, or is it just "random"? Also, what does the "~" in, for example, ɑ~ʌ mean? Does it mean that the sound is something between the two? If so, how should it be represented in IPA? Sorry for sounding a bit naive, but I have practically 0 knowledge on IPA. Thanks, Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 18:45, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: Hey, you're completely right -- the whole thing is a bit fuzzy. Regarding the IPA notation you're unclear on, the tilde ~ indicates that the two sounds on either side of it are in free variation phonetically — and that the sound may be pronounced as either one depending on speaker or in-the-moment preference — but that this difference isn't phonemic. On the other hand, I used commas in the "variants, allophones" column to separate what you could call "positional variants": instead of being in free variation everywhere, they're instead alternative pronunciations that tend to appear specifically in a certain environment, like the explanation of [i u] vs. [e o] in that one footnote.

Regarding how to know which one to use, the easiest way would be for us to simply transcribe everything Lebanese on Wikipedia in /slashes/, indicating broad transcription, meaning we can just use the IPA symbol in the "primary vowel" column (which I just renamed "primary phoneme" for clarity). This works because the more-precise phonetic reading can always be inferred from the context of the vowel: for example, /bint/ works perfectly as a phonemic transcription of بِنت “girl”, even though it's phonetically something like [ben(e)t] or [bɪn(ɪ)t], because the value of [e~ɪ] for /i/ (and the appearance of the second, epenthetic [e~ɪ]) can be inferred automatically. However, this leads right into the problem that Wikipedia's {{IPA-apc}} uses [square brackets], indicating phonetic transcription... which complicates things slightly, because that seems to force us to use a more-specific allophonic or free-variant value. In this case, I guess my preference is to pick just one possible pronunciation of the word (to avoid having to transcribe a bunch of different possible phonetic variants) and transcribe it as closely as possible using the vowels in the "variants, allophones" section, and in particular choosing only the first vowel in a series of tilde-separated variants. (For example, if the sound is something like [ʌː], then notice that that's recorded in the table as "ɑː~ʌː"; therefore, prefer [ɑː] because it's the first of the two.) But then determining this "one possible pronunciation" becomes tough if an editor's not aware of how to pronounce the word themself.

So for "short a"/fathah specifically, the ideal would be to just always transcribe it as /a/, using slashes. But if we're instead forced to use [square brackets], then it's generally pronounced closer to [æ] by default, closer to [a] after /r/ and around pharyngeal consonants, and closer to [ɑ] around emphatic consonants. But that feels like an incomplete/kinda-clunky solution. It'd be neat if {{IPA-apc}} could instead use /slashes/, as long as this doesn't violate some Wikipedia convention...? M. I. Wright (talk) 22:34, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

I've taken a look around, and apparently only English uses slashes. I'm guessing that English words are defined as "basic", while other non-English sounds are more "complex" (as we are on enwiki). For example, even if we only used the "primary phoneme" for the vowels, we would still have to use more "complicated" sounds such as [ʕ] or [ħ], which have very few equivalents outside of Arabic. In Help:IPA/Arabic there is a comment stating: "PLEASE READ BEFORE ADDING EXAMPLES OR LANGUAGES TO THE KEY: This key is intended for newbies to the IPA and should therefore be kept as short and sweet as possible. Descriptions should be brief, without technical terms like "back vowel" or "labial" or "fricative". Examples should be from familiar languages that are well described phonetically. The transliteration of consonants has the standard of ALA-LC written first." I think we should be following this rule of thumb.

Another point, raised by a user on Help talk:IPA/Lebanese Arabic, is that the notes are too long. If possible, could you write all the content you added in the footnotes at Lebanese Arabic, and reduce the notes to only be instructions on when to use a specific IPA symbol. For example, the long note on the pronunciation of ق as [ʔ] in general Lebanese and as [q] in Druze could only just specify when and who pronounces it as [q]. The detailed part can be written in the Lebanese Arabic page. Same goes for all other notes. Also, could you please add a note for /a/ writing about how it's pronounced as [æ] if in a certain context and as [ɑ] in another?

Thanks, Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: Agreed 100%, I see the point now. When I get home tonight I'll try and rework it to be less complex. M. I. Wright (talk) 00:34, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for all your help! Really appreciated. Just wanted to ask you something: is it possible for you to add the {{IPA-apc}} template to the Lebanon national football team#Players? I have tried adding it to a few players, but I'm not 100% sure I got the pronunciation correct. Can you take a look at it yourself when you get the time? Thanks, Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 21:51, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for taking care of the IPAs for the footballers! Btw, and IP user has changed a few things in Lebanese Arabic. When you get the time, can you take a look at the article? Maybe adding a few more details, and improving the page overall. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 01:15, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: Sorry, I really don't have much interest in keeping up with that page... as a matter of sanity, mostly. :P My pleasure re the footballers, though! M. I. Wright (talk) 03:54, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

The Asian 10,000 Challenge

Hello M. I. Wright. You have been invited to join WikiProject Asia/The 10,000 Challenge, a WikiProject dedicated to improving the Asia-related articles on Wikipedia. You received this invitation due to your interest in, or edits relating to or within the scope of the project. If you would like to join or just help out a bit, please visit the project page, and add your name to the participants. If you know someone who might be interested, please invite them by: {{subst:WikiProject Asia/The 10,000 Challenge Invite (1)|~~~~}} Thanks, Nehme1499 (talk) 14:34, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for February 27

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Demographics of Lebanon, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page English (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are usually incorrect, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of unrelated topics with similar titles. (Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.)

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 07:57, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Recent edits to Help:IPA/Lebanese Arabic

Hey kifak? I've noticed that you've made an edit to the page, and subsequently to a few footballers' IPA pronunciation. Whenever you get the time, could you please take a look at this list, and make sure all the pronunciations are correct? Also, could you please add some clarification on how to transcribe "Al-" (Arabic: ال-) in the Help page? For example for Kassem El Zein you made it into a "z'z-", while for Yahya El Hindi it's a "l'h-". Thanks, Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 20:15, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I went through and updated them. For the definite article ال: as in Standard Arabic, it assimilates to a following coronal consonant, being any of /t d r s ʃ/ and for some speakers /ʒ/. Since this is kind of already a "known" rule and not particular to Lebanese Arabic, do you think it's worth noting? How should it be indicated? M. I. Wright (talk) 07:52, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

I have added a table called "Specific cases", where we explain situations like "Al-" (and others if you know any). Also, I'm not sure about the recent edit you made (about keeping i if it's in the final syllable etc.) Obviously you're the expert, so you know better, but I would pronounce منذر as 'monzɪr. i instead of ɪ makes it seem as if it were something like منذير. Basically I would keep ɪ irregardless of whether it's in the final syllable or not. Idk I might be wrong. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 15:27, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Also another thing, in the table under "Distinct word-final vowels", you put the IPA "o" for words that end with ـه. Seems a bit odd, I've never seen a word end with an "h" that should be pronounced o. Is this a typo or am I missing something? Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 15:40, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: About منذر: my pronunciation is the same as yours, but it's overwhelmingly common in Lebanon to pronounce these word-final /i/ as a true [i], and seeing as that's its original value I see it as more accurate to observe as much. This is one reason I'm a bit disgruntled with the [narrow transcription] requirement: in broad phonemic transcription we can just write /i/ and it will always cover both [i] and [ɪ~e], but in narrow transcription whatever we write is assumed to be the true pronunciation and so we're forced to exclude valid differing realizations.

About -o: ـه is the original spelling of the 3rd-person-masculine-singular pronominal suffix pronounced -o. Originally "I saw him" was shiftoh شفته, and it remains shiftuhu شفته in Modern Standard Arabic, so plenty of Levantines can be seen spelling shifto شفتو as شفته under MSA influence. This may not crop up so much on Wikipedia, but you never know. M. I. Wright (talk) 17:16, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I understand the logic in both situations (Monzer and -o for male). I didn't think about the 3rd-person-masculine-singular pronominal suffix, so thanks for reminding me ahaha. Also, could you check Help:IPA/Lebanese Arabic and make sure that what is written about Al- is correct? Maybe adding other specific situations if there are any (basically, when transcribing the phoneme letter-by-letter isn't accurate). Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 17:40, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

It was good! I added a note about it only consisting of a single consonant in order to discourage people from transcribing it [el] as in Egyptian Arabic. For simplicity's sake I also included [ʒ] without limiting it to some speakers only, but then took out the "as in Standard Arabic" because that makes them differ: Standard Arabic's definite article doesn't assimilate to ج (for any speakers). Thanks. I think this is the only case needed for now. M. I. Wright (talk) 18:00, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, I see you haven't added /z/ to the list of examples (considering we discussed Kassem El Zein's case). Under Coronal consonant, it states that "In Arabic and Maltese philology, the sun letters represent coronal consonants." Sun and moon letters have a few more phonemes, namely /t d r z s sh sˤ dˤ tˤ l n/. Did you omit the others on purpose? Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 18:55, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

I've also added the pronunciation to Hussein Eldor, just wanted to let you know to be sure that what I've written is correct. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 19:14, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

A total accident :') I had just woken up when I wrote that first response here with the list of phon[em]es. Fixed. M. I. Wright (talk) 19:20, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

No worries ahaha. And Hussein Eldor is correct, right? Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 19:28, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Also, when should /uː/ be used, or /oː/, when we have a و? Any specific rules? Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 19:38, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Shouldn't /r:/ be used? Or is it different from /rr/? Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 20:38, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

They're the same! What you see most is "ː" being used for double-length vowels and doubling being used for double-length consonants, like at Muhammad, where it's not written [muħamːad].

The only way to figure out /uː/ vs. /oː/ is knowing the word, I'm afraid. The conventional English spelling can help sometimes. M. I. Wright (talk) 02:47, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Got it, thanks for your help! Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 14:21, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi, I've added the pronunciation to Lebanese Premier League. Can you please make sure it's correct? Thanks. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 14:22, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Levantine Arabic FAC

Hi M. I. Wright, I nominated Levantine Arabic for FAC. As you speak Lebanese, I thought you could be interested in reviewing it. Thanks for any help you can provide. A455bcd9 (talk) 14:38, 27 March 2022 (UTC)