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April 2024

[edit]

Information icon Hello, I'm Me Da Wikipedian. I noticed that you recently removed content from Kemp Mill, Maryland without adequately explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the removed content has been restored. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks. Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 22:09, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi I tried to add a summary. There are non-trivial claims made about the neighborhood that are note cited and other claims about the neighborhood which the citations don't support. It appears for that reason the descriptions of the neighborhood cannot be deemed accurate. To make such sensitive claims about the neighborhood as a whole (there are several different sections of the neighborhood) without citation doesn't seem to meet the standard of a reliable encyclopedic source. Lim yaar (talk) 22:22, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Information icon Please do not remove content or templates from pages on Wikipedia, as you did at Kemp Mill, Maryland, without giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your content removal does not appear to be constructive and has been reverted. If you only meant to make a test edit, please use your sandbox for that. Please read the summaries by both me and the other editor reverting you Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 22:32, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are entirely correct - I hope now it is more transparent. Lim yaar (talk) 23:09, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Stop icon

Your recent editing history at Kemp Mill, Maryland shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Wracking talk! 06:16, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The only reason the edit was made repeatedly is that I am new to Wikipedia and I didn't understand the edit summary explanation field. It wasn't clear to me why the change was reverting. I did have a conversation with other editors and you can read it below. Currently the article does not contain citations and they appear to have no basis. There cannot be concensus with disinformation. I have no problem with anyone editing the article so that is cited. Could you please re-instate the my edit now? Lim yaar (talk) 12:37, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We can even see through this article on redlining below and the map of kemp mill on google earth that Kemp Mill lies outside of the route 495 and was not subject to redlining.
https://montgomeryplanning.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Planning_Teams_Area1.png
https://www.mapquest.com/us/maryland/kemp-mill-md-282090881
This is a serious matter and I'm really asking for your help. Lim yaar (talk) 13:00, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
==History==
Kemp Mill was first developed in the late 1950s [1] approximately a decade after the 1948 Supreme Court Shelley v Kraemer decision. The neighborhood was among several communities in Montgomery County's Silver Spring area that were built by Jewish real estate developers catering to Jews moving to the suburbs from Washington, D.C.[2]. The majority of residences in Kemp Mill are single family homes dating to the 1950s, although newer homes were built in the 1980s and 1990s on Yeatman, Bromley, and Kersey roads.[3] Kemp Mill Estates was developed by Jack Kay and Harold Greenberg of the Kay Construction Company, the son and son-in-law of real estate developer Abraham S. Kay.[4] At the time of its development Kemp Mill lay outside of known and historical redlining districts used to exclude African Americans in Montgomery County, Maryland, which affected communities inside the Capital Beltway. [5] Additionally, it was located outside of an area of Silver Spring that had been historically closed to Jews [6]
In the late 1970s, the average price of a home in Kemp Mill was between $85,000 and $90,000. In 1978, a black DC school official living in Kemp Mill was the target of a hate crime when the N-word and "KKK" were painted on her house and her tires were slashed.[7]
___
Above:
This is the edit I'm currently proposing which is cited and allows for context on the topics I had previously reverted. I will reply to the second user who reverted my edits and WARNED not to do so. Lim yaar (talk) 14:09, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kemp Mill, Maryland

[edit]

I don't see how the source that was cited does not back up the claim. The source does back up this claim, specifically "Developers put in place systemic discrimination through ordinances. Silver Spring was at one point a “sundown town,” meaning that nonwhites had to be off the streets by sundown. Restrictive covenants let all developers specify who could and could not reside in certain housing developments". How does this not back the claim up? Perfecnot (talk) 22:30, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There were two sentences where it says citation was needed. Please feel free to add the citations. The other citation lead to a dead link, can you please provide the link you are using? And the sentence you are referring to? Furthermore at which point it stopped becoming a sundown town is that quoted in the article? There are also claims that Kemp Mill (which has several sun-sections) was developed by Jewish developers in the 1950s but I did not see that substantiated in the articles. Please feel free to cite the relevant sentences. Lim yaar (talk) 22:36, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are citing "Developers put in place systemic discrimination through ordinances. Silver Spring was at one point a “sundown town,” meaning that nonwhites had to be off the streets by sundown. Restrictive covenants let all developers specify who could and could not reside in certain housing developments"
Which sentence does that citation correspond to and what is the link? It also doesn't refer to Kemp Mill specifically being a neighborhood with that covenant, if Kemp Mill was at that time considered Silver Spring (it may have been Wheaton) and/or when the covenants were repealed.
This article (https://ggwash.org/view/77533/exodus-why-dcs-jewish-community-left-the-center-city-then-came-back) says some subdivisions were built by Jewish developers but doesn't specifically claim that Kemp Mill was one of them. And the sub-link that might provide that information says article not found.
If these claims can be substantiated/ cited they absolutely should be included. However they appear to be dubious. Lim yaar (talk) 22:53, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Washington post claims that Kemp Mill was part of Silver Springs. "In 1958, when Chuck Rich and his family moved into their house in the Kemp Mill community of Silver Spring"
Where We Live: Kemp Mill - The Washington Post Perfecnot (talk) 00:05, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Several issues here.
1. According to the Silver Spring wikipedia page Silver Spring ceased to be sundown town before 1950s, well before Kemp Mill was established. Three citations:
They are citations 37, 38 and 39.
According to these citations the covenants barred both Blacks and Jews.
2. According to the Kemp Mill wikipedia article, Kemp Mill was established in the 1950s, meaning it would not have been a sundown town. Therefore using your source would be anachronistic. Not to mention the source does not mention which sub-communities held such covenants and therefore would not belong on the Kemp Mill page to begin with. In short, anachronistic and not relevant.
3. The quote you cited, you still have not indicated what edit I made that removed that citation? Could you please? I removed 3 sentences with <citation needed> meaning there was no source. As well as 1 where the citation was unsubstantiated and had nothing to do with the quote you are referencing regarding sundown towns. It had referenced who the developers of the community were:
"The neighborhood was among several communities in Montgomery County's Silver Spring area that were built by Jewish real estate developers catering to Jews moving to the suburbs from Washington, D.C." Yet the source does not specifically mention Kemp Mill in the sub-link, which is not found. That is here:
www.jhsgw.org/exhibitions/online/jewishwashington/exhibition/real-estate-boom
The link above is defunct. It was embedded in the source here (https://ggwash.org/view/77533/exodus-why-dcs-jewish-community-left-the-center-city-then-came-back) , which doesn't mention who the developers of Kemp Mill were. Only that in the 1960s orthodox Jews began to move to the neighborhood. Although if that information can be found and substantiated it would be a great addition to the article.
4. Your source would best be addd to the Silver Spring article however that information is already present.
I hope this clarifies why I made the edit and why I think the claim is unsubstantiated and untrue. Any archival sources on the history of Kemp Mill should be welcomed but dubious claims should be excluded as that would be disinformation and undermine the integrity of wikipedia. Lim yaar (talk) 03:25, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Perfecnot
Please take a look at these two links:
https://www.mapquest.com/us/maryland/kemp-mill-md-282090881
https://montgomeryplanning.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Planning_Teams_Area1.png Lim yaar (talk) 13:01, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those aren't real sources that align with Wikipedia's standards. I sent you a Washington Post link. Perfecnot (talk) 14:12, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello,
1. Excuse me, the second link should have been this one (https://montgomeryplanning.org/planning/historic/research-and-designation/mapping-segregation-project/) This one should align with any scholarly source as it is an official government source.
2. The mapquest link was for your own information.
3. Your WAPO link doesn't substantiate the claims in the wikipedia article which were uncited, which is why I have attempted to propose an edit that takes into account the topics you want to keep but also doesn't stray into disinformation.
Could you please take a look at the edit? Lim yaar (talk) 14:29, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is the current edit I'm proposing:
==History==
Kemp Mill was first developed in the late 1950s [8] approximately a decade after the 1948 Supreme Court Shelley v Kraemer decision. The neighborhood was among several communities in Montgomery County's Silver Spring area that were built by Jewish real estate developers catering to Jews moving to the suburbs from Washington, D.C.[9]. The majority of residences in Kemp Mill are single family homes dating to the 1950s, although newer homes were built in the 1980s and 1990s on Yeatman, Bromley, and Kersey roads.[10] Kemp Mill Estates was developed by Jack Kay and Harold Greenberg of the Kay Construction Company, the son and son-in-law of real estate developer Abraham S. Kay.[11] At the time of its development Kemp Mill lay outside of known and historical redlining districts used to exclude African Americans in Montgomery County, Maryland, which affected communities inside the Capital Beltway. [12] Additionally, it was located outside of an area of Silver Spring that had been historically closed to Jews [13]
In the late 1970s, the average price of a home in Kemp Mill was between $85,000 and $90,000. In 1978, a black DC school official living in Kemp Mill was the target of a hate crime when the N-word and "KKK" were painted on her house and her tires were slashed.[14] Lim yaar (talk) 14:10, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why are we assuming that Kemp Mill was not affected by the racist laws in Silver Springs? Kemp Mill was in Silver Springs so wouldn't they be subject to the rules in Silver Springs? Perfecnot (talk) 14:21, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not assuming - I've read multiple sources and the sources are indicating that a) it was outside of redlining districts b) the house were built during an era of integration outside of the historical Silver Spring c) It was built in an area where black people were allowed to live and had lived historically d) it is was likely built by Jewish developers who themselves built the neighborhood to avoid covenant laws. Why are we assuming that it WAS affected? This area is also called Silver Spring not Silver Spring"s". The edit I was making was removing assumptions and the edit I'm proposing is only substantiated information, are you opposed to the edit? Lim yaar (talk) 14:38, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
e) As previously stated (Did you read any of my comments?) Silver Spring ceased to be a sundown town before 1950 and at any rate Kemp Mill was a new development and a further out DC suburb to which sundown laws had never applied built in the late 1950s.
You should take my edit and see if you can find a concensus with it and wording that is not based on assumptions were historically inaccurate and misleading. Lim yaar (talk) 14:52, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This document claims that Kemp Mills has been around long before the 1950's. Take a look at it and tell me what you think.
APPROVEADOPTKEMPMILL3rd .DOC (montgomeryplanning.org) Perfecnot (talk) 15:06, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The issue here is that Kemp Mill Wikipedia Article is referring to Kemp Mill Farms and Kemp Mill estates, which were built in the 1950s. This corresponds to sections 1 and 2 in Figure 3 of page 5 [15] in the link you provided above.
Regarding "Kemp Mill Farms" From the 2014 Washington Post article you quoted:
"Over the years, the neighborhood expanded to 1,693 houses. Nearby is Kemp Mill Farms, a 50-year-old neighborhood with 110 houses north and west of Kemp Mill Road."
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/where-we-live-kemp-hill/2014/06/20/8df96058-ea63-11e3-b98c-72cef4a00499_story.html) This means the neighborhood was built in the mid-1950s and that is borne out by archival records in the neighborood. Even a Zillow search can provide this to you, which uses legal archives can provide this to you. Check date of house construction for all house built on Lamberton Road.
Regarding Kemp Mill Estates:
"They began building the 600-home Kemp Mill Estates subdivision in 1959. Kemp Mill Estates is located off University Boulevard near Northwood High School in Wheaton and features attractive split-level and contemporary homes."
(https://sites.google.com/view/1950shousingboom/subdivisions)
I imagine you are not familiar with the area which is why you are having trouble teasing out some of the nuances? I think the issues here is that over 100-200 years place names change drastically e.g. Washinton, DC used to be Maryland, North Bethesda used to be Rockville, At the time of its earliest development (1931) you can see on the map you provided Kemp Mill was well outside Silver Spring -- now it is considered part of it.
That is a great article (https://montgomeryplanning.org/community/plan_areas/eastern_county/master_plans/kempmill_aa/intro.pdf) that could be used to for a new article entitled "Kemp Mill Masterplan"
Do you understand the issue I'm raising? So how about I change the first sentence of the Wikipedia article to read:
"Kemp Mill Farm and Estates was first developed in the late 1950s several years after the 1948 Supreme Court Shelley v Kraemer decision."
In that way it would be more specific? What do you think? Lim yaar (talk) 16:12, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Based off of both of our last comments, I am proposing this edit:
==History==
Historically, the Kemp Mill area was named for a mill used in the area continuously from 1745 to 1920[16] . The first subdivisions in the greater area Kemp Mill area broke ground in 1931.[17]. During this era, historical Washington suburbs were known for being sundown towns [18] and the racial covenants that governed some may have extended to the area contemporaneously known as Kemp Mill.
Kemp Mill Farms and Estates was first developed in the late 1950s [19] approximately a decade after the 1948 Supreme Court Shelley v Kraemer decision. The neighborhood was among several communities in Montgomery County's Silver Spring area that were built by Jewish real estate developers catering to Jews moving to the suburbs from Washington, D.C.[20]. The majority of residences in Kemp Mill are single family homes dating to the 1950s, although newer homes were built in the 1980s and 1990s on Yeatman, Bromley, and Kersey roads.[21] Kemp Mill Estates was developed by Jack Kay and Harold Greenberg of the Kay Construction Company, the son and son-in-law of real estate developer Abraham S. Kay.[22] At the time of its development Kemp Mill lay outside of known and historical redlining districts used to exclude African Americans in Montgomery County, Maryland, which affected communities inside the Capital Beltway. [23] Additionally, it was located outside of an area of Silver Spring that had been historically closed to Jews [24]
In the late 1970s, the average price of a home in Kemp Mill was between $85,000 and $90,000. In 1978, a black DC school official living in Kemp Mill was the target of a hate crime when the N-word and "KKK" were painted on her house and her tires were slashed.[25] Lim yaar (talk) 16:33, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok that edit looks fine Perfecnot (talk) 17:18, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ ""Jack Kay, 87, D.C. area home builder and philanthropist"". April 24, 2014.
  2. ^ "Exodus: Why DC's Jewish community left the central corridors, then came back". Greater Greater Washington. Retrieved 2021-09-09.
  3. ^ "'50s flashback: Kemp Mill houses have artifacts within their walls". July 7, 2021.
  4. ^ "Jack Kay, 87, D.C. area home builder and philanthropist". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2021-09-09.
  5. ^ "Mapping Segregation in Montgomery County". n.d.
  6. ^ {{cite web|url=https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/43fe10da626349a69ce077ffa9911bd2%7Ctitle=https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/43fe10da626349a69ce077ffa9911bd2%7Cdate= unknown
  7. ^ "Racial Epithets Painted Upon Officials' House". Washington Post. Retrieved 2021-09-11.
  8. ^ ""Jack Kay, 87, D.C. area home builder and philanthropist"". April 24, 2014.
  9. ^ "Exodus: Why DC's Jewish community left the central corridors, then came back". Greater Greater Washington. Retrieved 2021-09-09.
  10. ^ "'50s flashback: Kemp Mill houses have artifacts within their walls". July 7, 2021.
  11. ^ "Jack Kay, 87, D.C. area home builder and philanthropist". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2021-09-09.
  12. ^ "Mapping Segregation in Montgomery County". n.d.
  13. ^ {{cite web|url=https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/43fe10da626349a69ce077ffa9911bd2%7Ctitle=https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/43fe10da626349a69ce077ffa9911bd2%7Cdate= unknown
  14. ^ "Racial Epithets Painted Upon Officials' House". Washington Post. Retrieved 2021-09-11.
  15. ^ https://montgomeryplanning.org/community/plan_areas/eastern_county/master_plans/kempmill_aa/intro.pdf/. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  16. ^ "https://montgomeryplanning.org/community/plan_areas/eastern_county/master_plans/kempmill_aa/intro.pdf". {{cite web}}: External link in |title= (help)
  17. ^ "https://montgomeryplanning.org/community/plan_areas/eastern_county/master_plans/kempmill_aa/intro.pdf". {{cite web}}: External link in |title= (help)
  18. ^ "protesting-invisibility-in-silver-spring-maryland". June 26, 2023.
  19. ^ ""Jack Kay, 87, D.C. area home builder and philanthropist"". April 24, 2014.
  20. ^ "Exodus: Why DC's Jewish community left the central corridors, then came back". Greater Greater Washington. Retrieved 2021-09-09.
  21. ^ "'50s flashback: Kemp Mill houses have artifacts within their walls". July 7, 2021.
  22. ^ "Jack Kay, 87, D.C. area home builder and philanthropist". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2021-09-09.
  23. ^ "Mapping Segregation in Montgomery County". n.d.
  24. ^ {{cite web|url=https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/43fe10da626349a69ce077ffa9911bd2%7Ctitle=https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/43fe10da626349a69ce077ffa9911bd2%7Cdate= unknown
  25. ^ "Racial Epithets Painted Upon Officials' House". Washington Post. Retrieved 2021-09-11.
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