User talk:Legkicker01

Please provide source links and translations

Can you provide Japanese Internet links and/or translations for the below material referenced in the Benny Urquidez entry? I cannot find them online for use with Google translator:

1) BAB Japan. The Dave Cater Interview. 格闘技通信No.9 Kakutougi Tsuushin ("Martial Arts Network No.9"). August 1, 1987.Japan

2) 斉藤和紀 Saito, Kazunori. ４・２４東京ドームで再び ベニー・ユキーデ、続怪鳥伝説幕開けThe Jet of Benny Urquidez Flies Once Again At Tokyo Dome : The New Beginning of the Continuing Legend. 格闘技通信Kakutougi Tsuushin("Martial Arts Network"). July 1, 1989:36.Japan

3) 怪鳥ユキーデ遂に散る！(Benny The Jet Finally Shot Down!). ゴング ("Gong"). October 1, 1978:40.Japan

In the case of reference 1), I contacted IKF editor Dave Cater directly and he does not endorse the information attributed to him. Also, this source seems to be a TV interview rather than a publication. For reference 2), "no-decision" professional competitive bouts (without judges) are very rare in the modern era and have not been seen very much since about 1930. The information attributed to this source does not make sense. For reference 3), I want to read the full account of this bout.

Paul Maslak (talk) 22:25, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Legkicker01, so glad finally to hear from you... Can you provide English translations for the above-mentioned Japanese sources?

As regards the first Urquidez-Onuki bout, WKA President Howard Hanson showed me the actual "mix-match" fight contract for that bout. Throws were NOT excluded. What Hanson said on the videotape referred to the Japanese ruling at the time. He did not agree with that ruling and said so privately and publicly many times. That's also why Mr. Hanson ordered the WKA executive committee review that transmuted the outcome of that bout to a TKO victory for Urquidez upon the merger of the AJKBA with the WKA in October 1981. Personally, because it was a title bout, I thought the final disposition should have been a technical draw. However, as the WKA records keeper in that era, I am honor-bound to report the official ruling of the WKA. Mr. Urquidez is well within his rights to show that official outcome on his ring record.

As for the Urquidez-Sittiboonlert bout, both the WKA and STAR regarded it as a muay Thai bout because holding-and-striking was permitted, not because knees or elbows were or were not allowed. "Masterful use of Thai clinch-fighting" is the hallmark of such competition. The WKA viewed videotapes of that bout before making its determination to avoid any mistake. The WKA often sanctioned bouts that allowed knees and elbows in Netherlands, Hong Kong and elsewhere. That was a regional rule option. Striking-and-holding, however, was strictly forbidden in world-rated contender bouts. Therefore, Urquidez was not required to carry a muay Thai loss on his kickboxing record. His authenticated STAR record does, in fact, mention that bout as a muay Thai loss. Regardless, I will ask Benny about this fight again when I interview him next week and I will put his reply to your question on your Talk page.

Don Wilson specifically insisted that his Bangkok loss should show on his kickboxing record because he felt he should have knocked out Samart despite the less-than-reputable tactics of the local promoter. Frankly, I thought Don should have removed that loss. Had a promoter conducted himself in that manner in most Western countries, he would have been shut down by the government and possibly subjected to prosecution. However, that bout never factored into Wilson's STAR ranking or his status in the sport of kickboxing. Showing it on his record was The Dragon's choice. Don's authenticated STAR ring record regards it precisely the same as the Sittiboonlert bout on Urquidez's STAR record. By the way, I only became motivated to address the inaccuracies in Mr. Urquidez's Wikipedia entry when Don Wilson and his brother both alerted me to the problem.

Paul Maslak (talk) 07:18, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Your theory of the use of throws for those mixed-rules bouts is pointless. The voice over narration of the Benny Urquidez/Katsuyuki Suzuki fight is not the only one. Mr. Hanson did another voice over narration for the Benny　Urquidez/Yoshimitsu Tamashiro fight with Mr. Bob Perry of the United Karate Studios, and again clearly stated that the use of throws were illegal, and for those mixed-rules bout, Mr.Hanson admitted that both parties had to compromise for the mixed-rules set.

As for the Sittiboonlert fight, you still have no clue of what you are talking about. The fight was not either sanctioned or promoted by the WKA. The rules of the bout was no different from what Mr. Urquidez had to go through in his previous encounters with his Japanese opponents. The aforementioned mixed-rules bout allowed the use of Thai clinch and knees. In fact, Blinky Rodriguez, for example, suffered two losses from his Japanese opponents, Makoto Hirato and Yasuo Tabata. Blinky had difficulty dealing with the clinches and knees in those two encounters. Remember, those fights were sanctioned by the AJKBF, and the Hirato fight was the preliminary bout for the Benny Urquidez/Kunimitsu Okao fight in 1977, which was co-promoted by the AJKBF and WKA.

Mr. Wilson's action for not removing loss from his record is very respectable. But what is the point of turning his loss to Samart Prasammit into a no-contest? His fights against Pongdienoi Prasobchai and Fanta Attapong were not sanctioned by the　WKA either. The rules of those bouts were lot more similar to that of Thai boxing, but still Mr. Wilson lists the outcomes of the bouts as his wins. According to your theory, he shouldn't have listed those two as his wins because they are not what you call "kickboxing."

Hometown decisions and bad referree calls happen in every sport and every country. Rob Kaman one of the greatest champions of Holland, carries a number of questionable losses in his record, and many of those losses came from hometown decisions in Thailand. Like Mr. Urquidez and Mr. Wilson, he fought for many different sanctioning bodies, and under the different sets of rules. Win or lose, he never removed his losses from his record, and he never had separate records for his Thai boxing, kickboxing with international rules, and full-contact karate careers either.

Legkicker01 (talk) 08:03, 14 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.33.228.34 (talk)

Legkicker01, I'm so sorry I did not see your above comments earlier. I would have responded sooner: I recognize that you feel passionately about these ring sports and that you are trying to make sense of it all in a way that seems fair and proper. In that, we are alike. But as you observed, when it comes to judging, officiating and sanctioning politics, things get muddled.

I just completed an interview with Benny Urquidez ... first time I've spoken to him in nearly 20 years. I probably would not have pursued the interview if you had not raised a few questions I could not answer from known English language sources. I thank you for that. Benny's a very likeable man. It was great speaking to him again. Now, as to your comments above:

1) Please identify the specific recorded tapes you are referencing; I'll take a look. I will admit that Howard Hanson was sometimes inconsistent with what he told different people, but that inconsistency typically had to do with informal conversations. I was not involved with the sport administratively at the time of Urquidez's early fights in Japan. I can only rely on the official WKA records; I was the records keeper. Regardless of what Hanson may or may not have said on that tape, the fact remains that the Onuki bout was an official WKA-sanctioned title defense with a double sanction from the AJKBA (we knew them as the All Japan Kick Boxing Association -- don't know where "Federation" comes from. Sounds like a translator preference). When AJKBA merged with the WKA in October 1981, largely as a result of the yakuza fixed-fight scandal that halted the other Japanese sanctions throughout the 1980s (including the Katogi promotions), Howard Hanson executed the order that transmuted the first Onuki bout to a TKO victory for Urquidez. I have a copy of that order. You may not agree with the order ... indeed, I think the correct outcome should have been a technical draw ... but nevertheless TKO is the official final ruling of the WKA. Benny Urquidez is not being deceptive for carrying the final WKA decision on his official WKA record.

Benny told me that the reason he threw Onuki in that fight was because he thought Onuki was angling for a judo choke hold and he was countering before Onuki could get a grip.

2) I never said the Prayut Sittiboonlert bout was sanctioned by the WKA. In fact, if you look at the unabridged STAR ring record we compiled for Urquidez back in the 1980s, STAR always clearly showed that that bout was sanctioned by Kenji Kurosaki's group. By the way, why do you think that bout was the first event sanctioned by Kurosaki's federation? According to our records, the first breakaway event was 10 April 1978 when Urquidez defeated Takeshi Naito. The 2 August 1978 was just the first event under the "new rules".

Benny saw himself as just a fighter. Pay him the right amount of money, tell him the rules, show him his opponent, and he trained and fought. The business side of the sport he entrusted to his managers. He had different managers at different times. In Japan, there was some language difficulty. Sometimes the translators were not very competent or, perhaps, were diplomatically withholding significant information. I know that from my interactions with WKA Japan. For the Sittiboonlert fight, Benny told me his understanding was that it was a no-rules exhibition. There was no weigh-in. There was not supposed to be any decision. Plain and simple. Benny says he's unaware of any contracted rematch. He never showed up in Japan for the event you described. He never injured his knuckle. He never cancelled a match because he had the flu. He does not know anything about the various pre-event shenanigans you cited.

Yes, you are correct that some kickboxers occasionally fought under muay Thai-style rules, just as it's true that some muay Thai fighters fought under kickboxing rules. In general, when the champion of one sport fought a champion of the other, the winner was usually the guy whose rules were in play. Hometown officials may account for a few of those outcomes, but not most all of them. Fighters fight as they train. If they're not familiar with the other guy's game, they are at a distinct disadvantage. In terms of the STAR ratings, we were always very aggressive about only rating major bouts in which striking-and-holding was prohibited.

Now, let me explain to you why permitting or prohibiting strike-and-hold clinch-fighting became the divining line between kickboxing and muay Thai. Kickboxing in America was intended as a TV sport that could have mass appeal to Western audiences. Television was the sport's financial lifeline. That meant it had to pass muster with boxing-preferred athletic commissions and with broadcast network standards and practices: Blood had to be minimized, outfighting was preferred and athletic ability had to be emphasized over happenstance outcomes. Furthermore, fights had to be clean without even a whiff of behind-the-scenes prearranged fight-fixing (aside from occasional hometown judging). Muay Thai, in contrast, is a national martial art that became a sport supported by avid gambling. Emphasis on randomized KOs over athletic skill and on traditional Thai techniques in the scoring reinforces both the gambling and national pride. Throws are outlawed in muay Thai specifically to encourage clinch-fighting and to enable more KOs. Occasional behind-the-scenes prearranged fight-fixing also reinforces the gambling industry. The amount of blood is an irrelevant concern.

Finally, Western kickboxing needed to be able to establish legitimate world titles for the sake of television, and to develop a large pool of capable fighters. It was a broadcast requirement. If the sport had utilized rules that easily included muay Thai fighters, the sanctioning organizations would not have had the financial resources to incorporate Thailand. Also, it's completely unlikely that the Thais would have cooperated in the ways demanded by American television.

Now, all the above may strike you as so much nonsense, but that was the reality of the sport for its promoters at the time. Without observing those specific divining line requirements between the two sports, kickboxing might never have survived in the West and, certainly, would not have spread around the world as quickly. So it's not fair to regard a champion like Benny Urquidez -- who took many unconventional chances on behalf of the sport by facing the unknown in foreign venues and under variable rules -- by anything other than the world and the sport context in which he operated.

Today, mixed martial arts allows muay Thai techniques along with throws, takedowns and grappling holds. Without the later to mitigate, Thai clinch-fighting would still have a difficult time with American broadcast television.

3) You are correct that Don Wilson fought more than one muay Thai-style bout. The other two were, in fact, WKA sanctioned by special exception. However, none of the bouts -- win or lose -- factored into his STAR ratings. No WKA titles were at stake. If you will look at his STAR ring record at http://starsystemkickboxing.net/DonWilson.aspx you will see that STAR treated his muay Thai bouts the same as we treated Urquidez's muay Thai bout. What may be confusing is that STAR allowed the fighers' managers to decide how they wanted to show the fighters' ring records in the published summary ratings: include the muay Thai bouts in the summary count, or exclude them from the count. STAR existed to help promote the sport, so we allowed a certain amount of flexibility in this regard as long as the fighter's record consistently included or excluded. They could not use selective memory, though they could put their best foot forward. Regardless, the detailed authenticated STAR ring record would always show all bouts, kickboxing and muay Thai to clarify any confusion for the record books.

STAR carried Mr. Wilson's, Mr. Kaman's and Mr. Urquidez's records according to the election of their managers. Rob Kaman, during this period, had only one fight in Thailand. Benny Urquidez's manager was very aggressive about challenging hometown decisions that went against him, and about dropping his one muay Thai bout from his kickboxing record count. Honestly, I don't know how much of it came from Benny and how much of it came from his backers.

There's really no reason for you and me to be at odds on Wikipedia. I'm completely prepared to support a factual presentation of different relevant perspectives, as long as the language remains neutral and respectful and the factual rulings and contextual perspectives that pertain to Mr. Urquidez are also presented.

Regards, Paul Maslak (talk) 07:10, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your reply, Mr. Maslak. I think I misunderstook you and your intention regarding your reason to join the discussion. But I have much better understanding of your intention and renewed respect for you and what you have done for the sport.

1) The video tapes I referred to were produced by the now-defunct Panther Production. They were the WKA　Kick Boxing Classics. Mr. Howard Hanson did the voice over narration for the first three videos of the series, which had Mr. Benny Urquidez fighting Katsuyuki Suzuki (Vol.1), Kunimitsu Okao (Vol.2), and Yoshimitsu Tamashiro (Vol.3). Mr. Hanson stated that the use of throw was illegal in Japan in the video No.1 in which Mr. Urquidez attempted to throw Suzuki in the middle rounds. Mr. Hanson also explained that both the WKA　and AJKBA had to set up the conpromised rule sets in order to pit the American full-contact karate fighters against Japanese kickboxers. The so-called allege yakuza connection and fixed-fights, particularly fixed-fights were lot more prevalent for the Japan Kick Boxing Association, the rival of the AJKBA. They were in many ways like the PKA and WKA in the US. The　AJKBA, on the other hand, tried to establish themselves by producing quality fighters who could figh toe-to-toe against the Thais in their home. Their effort bore fruit when Toshio Fujiwara became the first non-Thai to win the championship of Thailand (the Radjamnern Stadium).

2) Prior to the Sittiboolnert fight, Mr. Urquidez fought Takeshi Naito and Shinobu Onuki in the events that were co-promoted by the AJKBA and Mr. Kurosaki's Shin-Kakutojutsu Federation (there was no such thing as KATOGI). The Sittiboonlert fight was a part of the Shin-Kakutojutsu Federation's first INDEPENDENT　promotion, which also had two other American fighters Refugio Flores and "Chicken" Gabriel, who was the first instructor of Steve "Nasty" Anderson, by the way.

I still find Mr. Urquidez's acount of the Sittiboonlert fight totally unrealistic. At that time, Mr.Urquidez was stiil at the peak of his popularity and he could make lot more money by fighting a real fight instead of an exhibition. The fight was one of the triple main events for the Shin-Kakutojutsu Organization. Mr. Urquidez uses the same kind of excuse for his loss to Mr. Billye Jackson. I watched the full fight of the Jackson fight and also saw a few magazine articles that reported the bout. The one I still remember is the very first issue of the short-lived Karate Today magazine. Mr. Jim Wilson, the older brother of Don Wilson, was the editor-in-chief as well as publisher. Others, like "Martial Arts: Traditions, History, People", co-authored by Emil Farkas and John Corcoran, recorded the bout as well.

I understand and as a matter of fact have already known the fact that Western, or American kickboxing was established as a TV friendly spectator sport. For that reason, the distinction of Western kickboxing and Thai boxing was crucial. But stuffs like behind-the-scenes prearranged fight-fixing and gambling are not the issues here. The Sittiboonlert fight was not a Thai rule bout. The use of elbows and knees-to-the-head were prohibited, and the scoring was the Japanese style which scores every technique evenly. The truth is that Mr. Urquidez agreed to fight for the Shin-Kakutojutsu's organization's first indepenent event. If, for example, he were actually threatened to participate in the event, then he should have file a law suit.

I understand Rob Kaman only one fight in Thailand when the STAR system was still active in the 80s. But that is not what I was talking about. Kaman too carries the losses he suffered in different rule sets. But he has never tried to remove them. Mr. Urquidez, Mr. Wilson, Mr. Kaman, and the host of other champions continued to fight long after the STAR system became inactive.

Their records should be kept as objectively as possible.

I just happened to be born and grow up in the country where many of Mr. Urquidez fights took place, and have access to some of the published records as far as the history of the sport here is concerned. I have no intention to edit the contents without resources to back up.

Regards, Legkicker01 (talk) 10:48, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Let's Work Together

Legkicker01, thank you for acknowledging my contribution to the sport. I know what the STAR ratings achieved, and what I helped facilitate behind the scenes, but most people in the sport today really have no awareness. And that's fine with me; I did it for the love of a professional sport for the martial arts, not for personal glory.

I came into the discussion at the urging of first Maurice Smith, then Joe Lewis (whom Americans regard as the father of Western kickboxing), and then Jim and Don Wilson who all were concerned with an assortment of misrepresentations about kickboxers and kickboxing on Wikipedia. Basically, they knew I had the documented official records and that I still possess a favorable reputation among most sport leaders. Jim finally pushed me into the fray at least to deal with misinformation that affected reputations in an unfair way. That's how I got started.

I think your issues are more with Urquidez's managers and with the sport's administrators (me included) than with Benny himself. Unlike Don Wilson who is a personal friend, my relationship with Benny has always been professional. But I can tell you that he is among the most honorable, ethical, guileless and genuinely good human beings and martial artists that I have ever met. I've never seen him lie or exaggerate. He tells the truth as he sees it and lets the chips fall where they may. He does not, however, always know the complete facts behind his fight arrangements: His managers took care of all that. Also, he does not remember a lot of the fight details. Like most pro fighters with long ring careers, much of what happened has blurred together in his memory. That's not deception, that's just human. With that understanding, I'll reply to your last comments:

1) I used to have the Panther Prod. videotapes but threw them out when the country converted away from VHS. I believe you about what Howard Hanson and Bob Channey said in their voiceovers. Howard's personality was something akin to circus promoter P.T. Barnum. He said whatever he thought would advance the sport; sometimes saying slightly different things to different people about the same thing. I heard more of his candid opinions than most because he backed the STAR ratings throughout its years of operation. Still, Howard usually did the right thing when it came to his official actions on behalf of the WKA and the sport.

I did not agree with the WKA transmutation of the first Onuki outcome. Onuki's injury was unintentional. Under today's rules, that bout would be declared a technical draw whether or not throws were legal. The final disposition was a WKA executive action. What remains important, however, was that that bout produced an at first informal agreement that, for the international title bouts, the Americans would give up throws and the Japanese would give up clinch-fighting. That agreement became the basis for the official WKA rules which ultimately helped internationalize the sport.

Promoter Lee Faulkner (who promoted the first kickboxing match in America and later imported Japanese kick-boxing matches for independent TV) told me that in the 1960s and early 1970s, fixed fights were fairly commonplace in Japan especially as pertained to international matches against the Thais and the Koreans. He said it was due to the influence of professional wrestling, and later because of Yakuza elements. I know the AJKBA tried to keep the fights honest. That's why the WKA worked with them. In fact, throughout the 1980s, my impression of WKA Japanese judges was that they were in the same league with professional Las Vegas, Atlantic City and London, UK judges -- who were our best. Japanese decisions in that era were usually very fair with little obvious hometown bias.

By the way, Benny told me his greatest disappointment was that the dream match against Toshio Fujiwara never happened. He liked and admired Fujiwara and thought a bout would have been a great career challenge for them both.

2) Could you help me with Kurosaki's federation? I don't know where we got the "Katogi" name from. That's how it was reported at the time. Could you send me the actual Japanese name in Japanese? Did it have initials by which it was known? (I'll give you an email below.) STAR did not get it wrong by design, just by bad reporting. The AJKBA had one pretty half-American translator who was born and raised largely in Japan, but who also had spent time with relatives in America. She spoke perfect American English and could translate conversations and explain customs both ways. If she wasn't around, the communication was very lax. We did not have her help with Kurosaki's events. Can you find a Japanese source that identifies who sanctioned the Takeshi Naito bout and what titles, if any, were at stake? Unlike Onuki, that bout was not co-sanctioned by the WKA.

For the same reason you mention, I could not make sense of the circumstances around either the Prayut Sittiboonlert fight or the Nobuya Asuka fight. Benny's manager for Sittiboonlert is deceased. Benny does not remember much. He won his first "world" title at his first full-contact event. To him, unless a title is on the line, it's an "exhibition". He has always talked about his fights that way. It's strikes Americans as peculiar, too. If a champion competes for a decision without his title on the line, we call it a "non-title bout". But Benny's always been consistent with his unusual terminology going back to 1974. While his manager for Sittiboonlert was still alive, he told me Benny had gone to Japan for an appearance and that the fight was a short-notice substitution when another semi-main event bout cancelled. Nobody claims Benny was threatened. However six-rounds seems a very unusual round schedule. Five or seven would be more normal. I know Benny's manager did not have a good impression of this promoter and would never work with him again. I could never tell whether there had been a meeting of the minds for that bout. Neither STAR nor WKA took any administrative action about this bout other than to classify it as muay Thai, because of the clinch-fighting, and allowed his manager to remove it from his kickboxing record; but not from his ring record. I've never seen the whole fight, only clips which show clinch-fighting. If you can help me obtain an unedited copy, I'll give it a second look. I can't change history, but I can add an addendum to the sport's history. Regardless, I believe Benny when he says he never received a rematch offer. Even if one had been forthcoming, I doubt Benny would have heard about it.

About the Billye Jackson fight, I was present at ringside for that fight along with Don Wilson, Jim Wilson and Graciela Casillas. Howard Hanson was independently at the event, too. Here's the real behind-the-scenes: Benny does not remember the weigh-in, but I do. I was present. Billye Jackson came in overweight. Then Jackson's trainer issued the ultimatum that Jackson would not fight unless he was not penalized for the extra weight and unless the WKA suspended the "leg kicks". Hanson now had a problem. He had a first-time WKA promoter who had not properly advertized the event, so the gate was smaller than it should have been, and now the main event was about to be cancelled and tickets refunded. The promoter freaked out. He could not afford to cancel the bout. Hanson personally asked Benny to give up the WKA rules at a WKA-sanctioned event. Benny very reluctantly agreed out of loyalty to Hanson and on behalf of an obviously panicked promoter.

As the bout proceeded, Benny gave away the first three rounds as was his custom. He lost round four, suffering a flash knockdown after he started to throw a low kick, then checked himself. He got caught while he was still off balance. Round five was even while Benny adjusted to fighting without the low kicks. Rounds six and seven went big for Urquidez. If you do the tally the way I just described the fight, Jackson should have won by about one point on judge's cards. Afterward, the WKA representative discovered that Jackson was allowed to wear his personal boxing gloves which are known as better "knockout' gloves where as Benny had the softer gloves provided by the promoter.

A protest was filed by Benny's manager. Hanson put the protest on hold, frankly, because he wanted Benny's manager to lower the asking price for a rematch with Howard Jackson. After a Howard Jackson rematch was no longer viable, Hanson allowed a WKA executive committee to review the fight and transmute to the outcome to a no-contest. Urquidez had been coerced to give up the low kicks last minute, and that coersion had visibly impacted his ability to defend himself in an otherwise relatively even fight. Also, Jackson had the better knockout gloves. To the American mind, which values fair play and the triumph of athletic skill, this transmutation was proper.

Are you based in Japan or are you in America?

My public email address is: Paul@starsystemkickboxing.net If you email me there, I'll reply from my private email. I have other issues I'd rather raise in a different forum.

Regards, Paul Maslak (talk) 22:38, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

CAN YOU HELP WITH THIS?

Legkicker01, I've spent the weekend getting caught up on where the kickboxing movement has gone since the STAR ratings discontinued in 1989. It's clear to me now that I've been behind the times. Without a dominant rating system or sanctioning body, "kickboxing" has fractionalized into many different rule formulations including muay Thai. Now the real division is between kickboxing and mixed martial arts. I'm going to update all of the STAR historic records to reflect this contemporary reality and re-publish on the STAR website; however, I'll also footnote the historic determinations of the era. Then I'll address Wikipedia in relation.

Meanwhile, I could use your help to provide Japanese sources to answer questions about these events:

1) 1978 Apr 10 - Urquidez vs Takeshi Naito: Who officially sanctioned this event? What title(s) were at stake?

2) 1978 Aug 02 - Urquidez vs Prayut Sittiboonlert: Was the correct sanctioning body name in Japanese "Shin-Kakuktojutsu Federation"? Were any titles at stake? You already know what was reported to STAR. Other than your Wikipedia mentions, I can find no reference to this organization in either English or Japanese search engines. What is the correct translation of Shin-Kakuktojutsu Federation? It looks something like "New Techniques Jutsu Federation" to me. Is that right? Did it go by "SKF" for short?

3) 1989 Aug 24 - Urquidez vs Nobuya Azuka: What was the official weight? Who was the promoter of record? Benny told me he was not very close to the contractual arrangements for this bout but that his hand was raised by the referee when the decision was announced. His deceased brother Ruben acted as his manager for this event only. If this bout was under a no-decision arrangement (meaning no judges, either knockout or no outcome), the standard records notation should also provide the majority press opinion about who won. Do you have any Japanese source information about that?

Could you post actual quotes in Japanese from your identified sources that answer these questions? I will ask Don "The Dragon" Wilson's Japanese mother to translate since she is familiar with Japanese martial arts terminology. If you will do these things, I will adjust the STAR records to reflect these sources.

I think Wikipedia will support Japanese script, so you will not need to email me directly.

Regards, Paul Maslak (talk) 19:03, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Shin-Kakutojutsu Federation

Unlike you and others, I have never been a professional editor of martial arts magazines or historian. Therefore, I　cannot help you in this regard. Speaking of rating systems, even after the STAR system became dysfunct, from what I remember, there were some published ratings for the WKA up until around 1991 or 1992. I was under the impression that the WKA　finally had their own rating. The Karate Kung Fu Illustrated magazines carried the newer version of WKA ratings for a short time. Do you have any idea who was responsible for the new version of WKA　ratings? The person behind that new ratings must know lot more about the post-STAR kickboxing history...

As for both the Naito and Sittiboonlert fight, no title was at stake, and both fight were promoted by Mr. Kenji Kurosaki himself. It is widely believed that the Sittiboonlert fight was materialized because Mr. Kurosaki wanted to see whether Mr. Urquidez could really be a worthy opponent for Toshio Fujiwara.

1) Mr. Kurosaki's organization was called "Shin-Kakutojutsu Federation(新格闘術連盟)" , literally means New Fighting Arts Federation. The organization was born partly due to the impact Mr. Urquidez left upon the Japanese kickboxing scene. Though Mr. Kurosaki never had high opinion on American full-contact karate, he, however, liked the 2-minute round, 1-minute interval format of the American sport, as opposed to the 3-minute round, 2-minute interval of the Thai rules. The federation's rule set was somewhat of the mixture of those two sports. The translator, from what I remember, was Ms. Mary Stickles, who appeared in several issues of the short-lived magazine called, "Martial Arts (or This Is Martial Arts)." I was under the impression that she only worked for Mr. Urquidez, but I did not know she worked for the WKA. Yes, I think you are right about the Naito fight being not sanctioned by the AJKBA. In fact, no title was at stake, and Naito was not a rated fighter by then. By the way, the Shin-Kakutojutsu Federation is no longer active as a sanctioning body. Today it functions as an amateur kickboxing organization.

2)Personally I do not agree with Mr. Urquidez definition of any non-title bout being an exhibition. For example, when Mr. Don Glen Wilson fought at the Radjamnern Stadium in Bangkok, there was no title at stake at all either. Still Mr. Wilson has listed the particular fight as his loss though he has much more legitimate reasons or excuses for losing the fight such as the forced weight loss in the day of the fight.

To this very day, no full-fight footage of the Sittiboonlert fight has been available to the public. The short clip which has been circulated for the last decade was directly from the documentary film called, "Kings Of The Square Ring Part II." I agree that it was poorly cut and edited.

3)As for the Asuka fight, in case you have never heard of, Mr.Urquidez first appearance in Japan took place in the event that was promoted by the New-Japan Pro-Wrestling. It was the undercard of the Antonio Inoki/Everett Eddy pro-wrestling match. Thus, it was not the first time for him to participate in a pro-wrestling event. While the Suzuki fight was sanctioned by the WKA, and was a title fight, the Asuka fight was purely an exhibition. Mr. Urquidez had been inactive for four years, and at that time Asuka's camp or any other Japanese fighter had no interest in pursuing WKA title anymore. The rule of the exhibition was similar to what Mr. Urquidez and other Americans had to go through when they first began fighting in Japan: 2-minute round, 1-minute interval, no elbows, knees only to the body with the clinch. In the end of the fight, both Urquidez’ and Asuka’s hands were raised by the referee. There were weigh ins for both fighters, but I am not sure what the contracted weight limit was. While Mr. Urquidez had been the welterweight champion for four years, Asuka remained a lightweight in his entire career.

I’ve been working the translation of the published report, and I have the full-fight footage in both DVD　and VHS.

By the way, when Don Wilson made his first appearance in Japan, his fight too was promoted by the New-Japan Pro-Wrestling.

While I had a chance to watch the Billye Jackson fight on video, I cannot make the behind-the-scene commentary. I too heard of the story of different gloves being used, but how come that was allowed to happen? Did the athletic commission of Florida regulate the bout? I remember years ago when I had a chance to read the interview of Don Wilson (I believe it was the Karate Illustrated magazine), who said the use of leg kicks for the WKA bouts could be negotiated by both parties weeks or months before the fight. Was Jackson sort of a last-minute substitute for the opponent Mr. Urquidez supposed to fight for the event? Anyway, I have limited info regarding the fight. So I no longer discuss the fight.

Regards, Legkicker01 (talk) 08:23, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I've Found New Possibilities for Solving Old Mysteries

Legkicker01, retired WKA world champion Fred Royers has given me the email address of a Tokyo sports reporter who sometimes worked with Mr. Kurosaki and who covered Urquidez's early Japanese fights. I've emailed him and, hopefully, he will confirm and clarify the historic record. Fred, who was a member of Meijiro Gym, tells me that Mr. Kurosaki's breakaway organization was known in English as "Kakutogi" in the Urquidez era which, doubtless, is what STAR mis-recorded as "Katogi".

Also, Benny has just passed along an email address for his brother Arnold who now lives in Beijing with his Chinese wife and coaches the PRC Olympic boxing team. Arnold was Benny's trainer and cornerman for all the Japanese fights. He has a fairly black-and-white, no-nonsense personality. He may remember some of the missing details.

I think it's important now to accurately clarify the historic record in a manner that's comprehensible across generations and across international borders. And not just as pertains to Benny's fights. It took me a while to realize that the All Japan Kick Boxing Federation (AJKBF), which operated between 1987-2009, was different from the All Japan Kick Boxing Association (AJKBA) I knew, which operated between 1971-1987. Understandably, many Wikipedia editors routinely confuse the two.

After STAR discontinued, I still received some verified fight result data for another 6 months or so ... until the movie business completely absorbed my time. Also, I continued to take note of some major fight outcomes -- I was often an invited ringside guest at many events. In the late 1989-1992 era, the WKA ratings subsequently were compiled by Howard Hanson and then by Dale Floyd. Frankly, they were not as thorough as had been the STAR ratings, and they were much less likely to take note of fights outside of WKA rings. Howard Hanson is gone, but I can probably get in touch with Dale Floyd to see if he kept any records.

Mary Sickles worked for All Japan Promotions. She was terrific. A fluent native speaker in both English and Japanese; she was especially excellent at explaining cultural differences to both sides, not just translations. I regret that I did not ask her to help to straighten out the official records on Benny's early Japanese fights back when I was still in contact. Unfortunately, we were always concerned with more immediately pressing matters.

I agree that Benny's use of the term "exhibition" is misleading. He has always spoken that way. I suspect it comes from his mother's background in pro wrestling. Reporters in this country who followed his career are aware of his actual meaning and know to ask the right questions.

I do not think it fair to hold Benny responsible for dropping the Sittiboonlert bout from his summary record in the STAR ratings. That was a promotional decision by his managers and the American sanctioning body administrators of the sport. He had very little say in that decision. At the time, they were trying to separate kickboxing competition from competition that included clinch-fighting. As I explained, the reasons were largely cultural and pragmatic, having to do with legal clearances with network television and American popular taste. STAR never removed the fight from Benny's detailed record.

Today, things have changed. The requirements for network clearance have been made irrelevant through cable broadcasts that are not subject to those same limitations. Also, MMA and the remaining international sanctioning bodies have embraced competition with distinctive titles under many different rule formats, including some that allow clinch-fighting. Personally, I think this evolution toward greater variation in the rules has not been in the best interest of the sport -- too many titles under too many rules cannot produce a meaningful championship. Nevertheless, I have begun to adjust the historic STAR records to show rule formats and to incorporate all variations of muay Thai competition into the summary record. I've already changed all the records published on the STAR website except Benny's record which I must clarify and verify as much as possible before I re-publish.

I hope you or one of my contacts can locate footage of the full Sittiboonlert bout. If we cannot find footage, maybe we can locate different Japanese print media coverages.

Ironically, besides Mr. Kurosaki, you may be interested to know that most Americans involved with kickboxing in that era also did not hold full-contact karate in high esteem. We had only been at it seriously for two years, and were building for the future. In contrast, Japan had been promoting their version of modified Thai kick-boxing since the early 1960s. They were further along in developing their program. So America was still in the start-up phase when Benny first fought Suzuki in Japan. Benny was ahead of the other American champions owing to a martial arts background that included training in conventional boxing. While growing up, he was a close friend of boxing champion Bobby Chacon.

I did not realize that the Asuka fight was promoted by the same wrestling group that promoted the Suzuki bout. Thanks, that should help resolve how to classify that fight and its outcome. The Inoki-Eddy match was a pre-arranged semi-choreographed "exhibition" as that term is understood in the US. (All professional wrestling in the US is legally classified as an "exhibition," meaning a non-competitive bout which may or may not have a legally-acceptable non-binding pre-arranged outcome. Confusing, I know, but these are legally defined distinctions.) The Urquidez-Suzuki bout, however, was a genuine athletic competition. You can see how Benny came by his quirky use of the word "exhibition." Benny also refers to the Asuka bout as a "non-title exhibition". I would love to see translations of print media coverage for that bout as well as screen the full footage.

At the time of the Urquidez-Billye Jackson bout, the Florida State Athletic Commission was not yet in operation for kickboxing. Not every state has an athletic commission even today. However, any boxing, kickboxing or MMA match broadcast over network television in the US will be located in a state with an athletic commission, usually California, Nevada, Colorado, New Jersey or New York. That's because with athletic commission oversight, if a fighter is badly injured or worse, the promoter and broadcast network cannot be held liable for damages in a court of law. In short, the WKA provided the only oversight during the Billye Jackson bout. The WKA representative was still a little inexperienced. He did not realize that Jackson was using his personal gloves until the end of the bout when he cut the tape on the glove strings.

Finally, yes, Jackson was a last-minute substitute for Glen Mehlmen (a vanquished Bill Wallace opponent). Jackson came in overweight. However, at ringside after the fight, I spoke with Jackson's trainer-stablemate the late Demetrius "The Greek" Havanas. He told me that they had always planned for Mehlmen to back out at the last minute and substitute Jackson so that Urquidez would not have time to prepare specifically for Billye. Havanas had lost a close fight to Urquidez in 1975 and knew that surprising Benny was their best chance for victory. None of this behind-the-scenes wrangling, though, had anything to do with the transmutation of this fight outcome. It was solely about how close the contested decision, the uneven glove assignments, and the last-minute prohibition of the low kicks that visibly affected Urquidez's ability to adjust his techniques to defend himself.

What Don Wilson said in Karate Illustrated was sort of true, but not precisely. Many PKA fighters back then refused to fight with low kicks. They weren't familiar with the technique and did not know how to attack with or defend against them. So the WKA would sanction non-title bouts without the low kicks by special exception. World title bouts, however, had to allow low kicks. No exceptions. However, to facilitate matchmaking, the WKA would look the other way if title contenders had an unofficial gentleman's agreement not to use them ... provided the winner understood that he would have to defend the WKA title with leg kicks against any contender who wanted to use them.

Regards, Paul Maslak (talk) 20:14, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Will republish Urquidez record soon

Legkicker01, I tried to contact English-speaking sports reporters in Japan for double-source confirmations on the Kakutogi bouts, but all trails led to dead ends for one reason or another. For the Sittiboonlert fight, Fred Royers tried to contact people from All Japan Kickboxing Federation for help, but it was shut down in 2009 after yet another Yakuza-related scandal. All contact information was obsolete. We even tried Kurosaki sensei but, unfortunately, we've been told he's very sick and unavailable. Fortunately, we did obtain at least one contemporaneous Japanese press coverage of the Urquidez-Sittiboonlert fight. Don Wilson's mom will translate for me.

I have also double-source confirmed the official outcome of the Asuka fight, but the written coverage only detailed the pro-wrestling title fights. Customarily, with this type of fight, majority press opinion is supposed to be mentioned (usually by asterisk) with the outcome. I'm still working on locating press coverage. Since it's a slightly more recent fight and New Japan Pro-Wrestling still operates under new ownership, it may be possible.

Once I'm certain I have all the available facts, I'll publish my interview with Benny along with a revised ring record that reflects all the recent corroborated results. I'm about 2-3 weeks away from publishing. Point is, I want to shine a light on all controversies surrounding Benny and any others in a way that's fair and comprehensible to all.

Have you found any detailed coverage for the Asuka fight or, better still, a responsible Japanese website link that you can direct me to?

Regards, Paul Maslak (talk) 19:28, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Some Additional Info

Mr. Maslak, I apologize to you for the delay. I had been busy with some assignments I had to take care of.

"Kakutogi" is just a generic term for combat sports. Mr. Kurosaki's organization was indeed "Shin-Kakutojutsu Federation."

I recommend you to contact Mr. Shotaro Funaki, the former editor-in-chief for the now defunct "Gong" magazine, which had the broad coverage of the sport here since the mid-60s until mid 80s. After that he was responsible for the creation of "Gong Kakutogi" magazine. He is now retired from editing work, but it seems like he is still active in video production of boxing, kickboxing related DVDs. He is the leading historian of the sport here, and is very close to Mr. Kurosaki, and had watched the fights of Benny Urquidez, Don Wilson, and the host of others live.

You can contact him by sending an E-mail at upper@lapis.plala.or.jp. I am sure he will give you insights you need including the Asuka fight.

Regards, Legkicker01 (talk) 08:26, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Legkicker,

Thank you so much. That's very helpful. After interviewing Benny, it's clear to me that he does not fully understand everything that the officials were doing in Japan. I need a reputable historian like the Gong editor to clarify before I publish my profile and interview. Also, I've been referred to Antonio Kanji Inoki. I'll email him about his recollections as well. I'll give you a direct link to the Urquidez article as soon as it's ready.

Paul Maslak (talk) 23:06, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Legkicker,

I have succeeded in making contact with Mr. Funaki. I also hired a Japanese-speaking grad student to assist with Japanese language research. At this point, I've compiled most Japanese and American eyewitness and media accounts of how the WKA and Benny Urquidez first went into Japan and what later happened in the Sittiboonlert (Srisontob) bout. You had part of the story correct, I had part of the story correct; we both missed parts of the story. I'll finish my article and interview with Benny this week and will submit it for print-media publication, so I won't be able to give you a chance to "kick the tires" in advance. However, I will alert you before I put it up on the Internet and will seek your feedback at that time. I think I've compiled a very accurate historic recounting of The Jet's place in sports history in a way that should be comprehensible around the world and across the ages. I'm certain my account won't satisfy the hardcore conspiracy buffs, but everyone else should be content. Thanks again for your help and for prompting me to sort it all out before the story was lost to time. Paul Maslak (talk) 15:26, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

No Cospiracy Theory Needed

I apologize to you for the delayed reply. I have just checked the recent update of the STAR System website. Still, I have no idea where you got the information below despite the fact that you have successfully contacted Mr. Funaki.

"Immediately after this event, it should be mentioned, the returning Americans insisted that the bout was supposed to be a no-decision bout (meaning knockout or draw; no judges) because Urquidez's scheduled opponent cancelled on short notice and, instead, Benny fought a middleweight nearly 20 pounds heavier. The promoter, the Americans believed, had intended to use this no-decision as an opportunity for political advantage within the Japanese kick-boxing community by first awarding a deceptively-achieved win to Prayout Srisontob (aka Prayud Sittiboonlert). The New Combative Sports Federation was disbanded in 1981 after a yakuza-scandal infested kick-boxing. "

First, why don't you provide the name of the original opponent whom Mr. Urquidez was supposed to face on August 2, 1978? Second, Prayud Sittiboonlert had long been a welterweight, and he was rated 5th in the Lumpini Stadium rating by the time of the fight. Thus, there was no way that he was nearly 20 pounds heavier than Urquidez. In those days, Monthly Gong Magazine, for which Mr. Funaki had been the editor-in-chief, had provided the monthly ratings for both the Lumpini and Radjamnern Stadiums every month. If you had really contacted Mr. Funaki, it would not take long to see which rank Sittiboonlert was rated by then.

Legkicker01 (talk) 18:01, 06 October 2011 (UTC)

Legkicker01, I am so sorry to have taken nearly a year to respond to you. I missed your comments here ... if you do not also post your comments on my talk page, I do not get notified to look. I wrote a two-part article for "Black Belt" magazine about Benny's controversial fights, including the Prayut Sittiboonlert bout, and I have been waiting until it has been published to put my fuller account on the STAR website. "Black Belt" magazine has a one-year wait cue for publication, so I've been attending to my regular business matters since. However, I'll provide you with a few quick answers to your questions:

1 - Mr. Funaki handed me off to a former "Gong" reporter named Kei Murakami (村上 桂) who, previously, had been a referee for Noguchi's Japan Kick-Boxing Federation and who did not have a relationship with either AJKBA/WKA Japan or Kenji Kurosaki's Shin-Kakutogi Federation. I guess Mr. Funaki thought he would offer a neutral perspective. I worked through a Japanese translator that I hired. Mr. Murakami told me that, behind the scenes, the Japanese kickboxing community did not regard this fight as significant because of the way it had been conducted. However he did verify the official outcome. I found it difficult to get complete answers from him. He seemed very circumspect, carefully picking his words, owing to local allegiances and concern for offering proper due respect to all parties.

2 - I next spoke directly with Benny's older brother Arnold Urquidez who worked the corner in this fight and who also at the time functioned as Benny's manager. Arnold now lives in Beijing with his Chinese wife; he coached the Chinese boxing team for the Beijing Olympics. Arnold spoke to me long distance from China for a good half hour. I asked him what the Japanese reporter meant when he said the Japanese kickboxing community did not regard this fight as significant. Arnold then told me the the story about Prayut weighing in as a middleweight. Nobody disputes that Prayut was rated as a welterweight, only that on that night he was heavier. Certainly you've been around the sport long enough to know that that sometimes happens. Arnold was most emphatic that Prayut outweighed Benny by more than 15 pounds. He still feels regret for allowing the fight to go forward under those circumstances. I'm inclined to believe him. Benny was fighting between 140 and 143 pounds in those days. Look again at the short clips of this fight on YouTube; you can see that Prayut looks taller, wider and bigger than Benny. Finally, Arnold told me that he and the other Americans remain convinced that Benny should have won the decision owing to the body shots and combinations he scored. After the fight, through a translator, the judges told Arnold that Prayut outscored Benny with enough low kicks to take the decision. Arnold did not think they were right; he felt Benny was more effective for most of the fight. He told me the clinch-fighting and knee kicks were not really a factor in the fight until near the end of the last round. Without footage of the whole fight, I cannot make a judgement about whether Arnold's account of the action is objective. The official outcome stands as a decision in Prayut's favor.

3 - I did not learn the name of Benny's original intended opponent. That's certainly my fault. I did not think to ask; I doubt they would remember. Having spent 10 years behind the scenes with match-making while running the STAR ratings, I know that sort of thing occurred quite often. I also did not think the name of the cancelled opponent was a significant detail. I mean, that match did not happen. But given that the Urquidezes have not discussed this bout for so many years, I can see why you might think otherwise. Here's something about that era you may not realize: With the early international matches, especially against Thai opponents, the American fighters often did not know who they were going to fight until the day of the fight. Unless their opponent had marquee value for the local audience, typically American champions contracted to fight a random opponent at a specified weight. The Americans had no way of following the rankings of Thai or even Japanese fighters. For the most part, one guy was the same as another to them. When Benny fought Narangnoi, he only knew he would be fighting a Thai champion. When Don Wilson fought Jaidee, he knew Jaidee had kayoed Genshu Igari, but that's all he knew. Beyond that, Don never knew anything about his Thai opponents in advance. I always assumed the Thais liked it that way because it gave them one more opportunity within the rules to manipulate proceedings from outside the ring. They could conveniently put in a guy who was slightly too heavy, too light, too tall, or too stocky to suit their best advantage. They could just say they did not have anyone else to fight the American. That type of manipulation was found all around the world, including the US. The Thais particularly did it a lot. However, with regard to promoter Kenji Kurosaki, I do not get the sense that any conspiracy of any kind was involved with him in anyway whatsoever ... just the usual comedy of errors and chaos that normally accompanied international match-making in those days. I just thought I should report the suspicions that the Americans held at that time. It may have been sour grapes on their part, but it was part of the story in the sense of how they behaved and the decisions they made. I'll make that more clear.

4 - My last sources of information consist of two contemporaneous Japanese accounts of the fight that my translator found and translated for me.

Meanwhile, I've spotted the comments you posted on YouTube about Don Wilson's fights against Thai opponents. I thought you were fair and savvy in what you wrote. Within a few of those comments, you mentioned the muay Thai titles and rankings held by those Thai fighters. Could you tell me your sources for that information? Did that come from "Gong" magazine?

Regards, Paul Maslak (talk) 05:08, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Kickboxing oriental rules

Please stop trying to remove mentions to oriental rules in the Kickboxing article by saying they don't exist. They do, a simple internet search will confirm this. A few examples: here, here and here. Those are 3 separate governing bodies mentioning oriental rules that took like a minute to find. Shadess (talk) 14:37, 16 March 2020 (UTC)