User talk:LRBurdak/Archive04
Jats in Gujarat
[edit]Thanks for quick note .That was useful. Can you please think of turning the note into a separate article .One question though I do not find any one from Gujarat in the List of Jats.Pehaps oversight.Wish you a happy 2007.Shyamsunder 20:58, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
- jats in gujarat? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sakredfire (talk • contribs) 12:09, 19 March 2007 (UTC).
Physical Features of Jats
[edit](see notes on Discussion Page of Jats)
- Hi Shri Burdak: I am sorry I have to disagree with you. The previous section on "Physical Features" which I deleted had many things wrong with it and was anything but "neutral."
- First of all, there is no agreed-on definition of the physical characteristics which make up the so-called "Aryan race". Several groups have made claim to being descended from the "original Aryans", including people from the region around Herat and neighbouring parts of Iran (ancient Aria) and some Germans, notably the Nazis. Now, I am sure you will agree that, in general, Heratis, Germans and Jats look very different from each other - so all three claims cannot be accepted and, without convincing proof available one way or the other, one must remain neutral.
- No one really knows what are "pure Aryan features," or "pure Aryan characteristics" are. I am sure many Heratis and Germans would not agree with this way of describing Jats, and may even be offended. That is why it is so important to retain a "neutral point of view" NPOV.
- And what exactly do "pure Aryan", "unmistakably Aryan", and "non-Aryan features" mean? Have a look at the Wikipedia articles on Aryan and Aryan Race.
- Similarly, just because an old British report referred to the Jats as a "Martial Race" does not necessarily mean that the Jat were a racially distinct group. In fact, it is probably best interpreted that the Report either meant that they were a significant threat to the British or that they provided good troops for the British forces in India. The word "race" has been so misused over the years, and can imply so many different things, it is now almost meaningless unless very carefully defined by the author. See the Wikipedia article on race.
- Further, there was a long quote from a Dr. Birereton (with no proper references given) which was extremely simplistic and full of generalizations. Worse, it was very insulting of Jat people. Comments such as: "Their intellectual facilities are not brilliant partaking more of shrewedness and cunning than ability" and "The Jat women are of very strong physique exceeding man in this respect proportionately speaking. They are not remarkable for personal beauty . . ." These are outrageous generalizations mainly demonstrating the prejudices of Dr. Birereton and have no place in a serious reference work. John Hill 14:34, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
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I have created a stub on Krishna Punia ,a woman athelete from Churu district -perhaps your home district .If you know more about her please update the page.Thank you..Shyamsunder 09:55, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Ancestry of the Mauryas
[edit]Dear Sri Burdak: Thank you for getting me to have a look at the long, often heated, and, I believe, inconclusive, arguments about the ancestry of Chandragupta Maurya.
I think any neutral person would have to agree with the statement on the main page about Chandragupta Maurya that: "The ancestry of Chandragupta is still shrouded in mystery and not known for certain [30]. There are divergent views regarding the origin, and each view has its own set of adherents."
More long and detailed arguments on the subject can be found on the Ancestry of Chandragupta Maurya page. There is no need to repeat them all here.
What is clear is that this is a very contentious subject and, therefore, in keeping with the Wikipedia NPOV policy, articles should contain suitable qualifiers to any such claims. Therefore, it is permissible to make a statement such as: "many Jats writers believe (or claim) that Ashoka (or whomever) was a Jat" - so long as this is backed up by references. However, as there are so many competing points of view, it is not permissible to make a claim that Ashoka or Chandragupta was a Jat.
I will, therefore, go through the article on Jats and make some qualifications to any such claims and also remove the modern picture which claims to represent Ashoka Maurya which, in the interest of fairness, should not be represented on the Jat page. Moreover, I don't think it is known what he looked like, so this image is just some modern artist's fantasy.
Finally, I will ask you one last time if you (or any other readers) could please try to find the claimed reference to Ashoka being a Jat in the Mahavamsa which you keep referring to? I can find no trace of it in Geiger's translation or the Pali text. But if it does exist, and it can be checked in reputable sources, it is indeed an important reference which I think should be much better known.
If it does not exist, one can only assume the claim was made falsely and, therefore, it puts many of the other 'historical quotes' in the article about Jats into question. John Hill 00:45, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia! We welcome and appreciate your contributions, such as Alka Tomar, but we regretfully cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from either web sites or printed material. This article appears to be a direct copy from http://www.jatland.com/home/Alka_Tomar, and therefore a copyright violation. The copyrighted text has been or will soon be deleted.
If you believe that the article is not a copyright violation, or if you have permission from the copyright holder to release the content freely under the GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL), you can comment to that effect on Talk:Alka Tomar. Then you should do one of the following:
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It is also important that the text be modified to have an encyclopedic tone and that it follows Wikipedia article layout. For more information, see Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Thank you, and please feel welcome to continue contributing to Wikipedia. Happy editing! -- ReyBrujo 15:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Katni / Katewa, Lord Krishan a Jat
[edit]Dear Mr Burdak Please be rational. I know the history cn be rewritten or corrected but not lke the way you are doing. Wikipedia is not the word of god so that you can put something in its mouth to be accepted by all. People say Hanuman was a Jat - Now you have have said Krishan was a Jat tomorrow you may say Brahma the creater of the Brahmand was a Jat. Let us accept we all are created by a Jat. Than after that what satisfaction would one get.
We notice - You have done a good job - dont ruin it now - by such things. It doesnt have to be writtn in wikipdia but people cut jokes of it.
I hope you dont take this maliciously - I am writing this because I meet more people than a lot of us.
regards Jaisingh Rathore
yr msg
[edit]It is not me who laugh / its people who are not connected with wiki --- we should not say that one can laugh -- if someone laughs than there is some point to ponder
'cause Katni does not have anything to do with katewa katewa are found only Jhunjhunu -- there is no trace of jats community anywhere near katni -- rivers are not generally named the way you have described -- Bhagirathi is generally called Ganga even the river you mention in jhujhunu is called Kaatali I repeat KAATALI not katni , whatever you have written about katewa --- they themselves may not be knowing --- written about katni is not known to the people around katni itself Swami Gopal das was such a personality that to confine him into a caste will not be good to him.never ask sadhu saint his caste so never mention also.
if Al-biruni have mentioned anything that does not mean we cannot correct it.. so many writers write so many things out of fantasy --- are you doing the same way -- I believe NOT .. you are working for a pedia and not media ..
source at / for wikipedia can be created -- don't be guided by them, today we creat something at wiki tomorrow the same thing can be quoted elsewhere. you know all sorts of books are also written but it for us to judge regards Jaisingh Rathore
Re:Yr message
[edit]What you replied to my above not is reproduced bellow:
- "It is not me who laugh / its people who are not connected with wiki --- we should not say that one can laugh -- if someone laughs than there is some point to ponder 'cause Katni does not have anything to do with katewa katewa are found only Jhunjhunu -- there is no trace of jats community anywhere near katni -- rivers are not generally named the way you have described -- Bhagirathi is generally called Ganga even the river you mention in jhujhunu is called Kaatali I repeat KAATALI not katni , whatever you have written about katewa --- they themselves may not be knowing --- written about katni is not known to the people around katni itself Swami Gopal das was such a personality that to confine him into a caste will not be good to him.never ask sadhu saint his caste so never mention also. if Al-biruni have mentioned anything that does not mean we cannot correct it.. so many writers write so many things out of fantasy --- are you doing the same way -- I believe NOT .. you are working for a pedia and not media .. source at / for wikipedia can be created -- don't be guided by them, today we creat something at wiki tomorrow the same thing can be quoted elsewhere. you know all sorts of books are also written but it for us to judge regards Jaisingh Rathore"
What history of Katewa is on Wikipedia is provided with references and page numbers. Do you know the origin of the name of Katni River ? If you have, provide with reference, so that it can be added to relevant place in Katewa or the Katni River article. It was the nagavansha that ruled at that time and Katewa were included in them. Katewa are in Jhunjhunu today does not mean they had no links with Katni or nearby areas. Today we do not have any trace of British people in India but they had ruled here. It is true that Katewa themselves may not be knowing but that does not mean that we should not write their history. We were named Hindu not by us but others. Our history's base is the records of foreign travelers who came to India. We do not know our properly recorded history. Should we not take from their records, when we do not know ourselves our history.
About Al-biruni you write "if Al-biruni have mentioned anything that does not mean we cannot correct it". I am surprized at your this comment. How can we correct his records of 10th century. If you have a new theory you can provide this also saying that Al-birunu was wrong but his records can not be corrected.
About the deleted entry by you in Swami Gopal Das article you wrote- "Swami Gopal das was such a personality that to confine him into a caste will not be good to him.never ask sadhu saint his caste so never mention also". The line in Wikipedia was "He was born in 1822 in village Bhainrusar situated at a distance of 22 km in north of Churu town in Rajasthan in the family of Chaudhari Binja Ram Kaswan and Smt Nauji Devi". What you deleted was Chaudhari and Kaswan. I do not undersatand what is the correlation with what you say and delete. What you deleted was his father's title and surname. His father was not a sadhu. Gopal Das was sadhu and he is not being written Gopal Das Kaswan.
Your last statement seems to be out of tune of the policy of wikipedia. We alone are not judges, their is community of Wikipedia to judge and correct the things. There are administrators to correct. Don't bost over such things. Do not do any personal attack. Don't think that what we add or delete is the final wording. Please provide sources for your entries and do not delete without discussing on its talk pade. There is a policy of deletion and you have to follow that. Thanks.burdak 04:25, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
over glorification
[edit]It is unclear to me if you are a jatt or not, but I for one think you are over exaggerating what Jats currently are. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.112.19.193 (talk) 21:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC).
I know the Guptas of today aren't the Guptas of ancient past. My point was that it is not proper to attribute jatness on the basis of a surname to the Guptas, just as it is pointless to identify modern Vaishya Guptas with the ancient kings. Besides, you should very well know that punjabi sikhs adopted the Singh surname during the time of Guru Gobind Singh, so calling everyone with the Singh surname a jatt just because a lot of jatts today have the jatt surname is irresponsible. I have nothing against jatts, respect historic jatts profoundly (bhagat singh is my personal hero!), and have jatt friends but please! Don't exaggerate history! And I don't know of any jatt clans in gujarat!--Sakredfire 12:19, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
WikiProject India Newsletter: Volume II, Issue 1 - January 2007
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Help LRBurdak
[edit]There is a relatively new user User:Sikh-history constantly deleting and vanadalising Jat kingdoms from the Jat article. Can you do me a favour and help other Jat people in the world by getting User:Utcursch or some other Adminstrator you trust, to warn him he will be blocked or block him now because he has been warned many times--Jat78 18:17, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
G.D. Kumar
[edit]Dear Friend, Can you find out any picture of this little known revolutionary with a very big past (as you did with Barakatullah) ? We need a face to remember better.--BobClive 05:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Hi BobClive, I will post the image when available. burdak 15:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
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Reply to Shree Burdak - “history” versus “legend”
[edit]Dear Shree Burdak: It seems to me that we have had this discussion in various forms several times already and it is certainly getting to be very tiresome, repetitive and long-winded. I will try once more to make myself clear – but if these differences continue I will have to appeal for help from the Wikipedia Administrators. I apologise in advance for the length of my reply but you have raised a number of points and made a number of accusations.
What I have objected to on the Jat page have been the many and regular confusions between historical and legendary material and well-documented historical events; the unsupported, or misquoted (and even sometimes falsely supported or attributed) claims made by various writers.
Even worse, perhaps, have been the grossly inflated claims and frequent racist comments, showing that this page has been made the forum of some ruthless people with a very low regard for accuracy and truth.
As you are well aware, many other readers have also been complaining about these issues and there have been numerous arguments on these Talk pages about them – it is not just me as you seem to be implying.
This continuing bickering and re-editing is a huge waste of time. I suggest that the whole matter should be reported to Administrators to check the article and all the many references and maybe “lock it”, or restrict access to it after that process is completed.
However, as you specifically refer to edits I have made, I will take this opportunity to answer them (again) one by one, in the order in which you brought them up.
Point 1a: You have made the comment that I have: “deleted reference of Jats in Mahavamsa simply because on the basis of the fact that you did not find it in Online edition of Mahavamsa, without going in to details of the printed book which had been referred.”
As I did not have a copy of the book available, I did check the on-line version at: http://lakdiva.org/mahavamsa/editorsnote.html which claims to be the full scanned text of the first 37 chapters of Geiger’s book, which are, apparently, the only sections he referred to as the Mahavamsa. One can only assume that p. 27 of his printed book (which you refer to) must have been included in this scan – especially as it is claimed to be from the Mahavamsa. Just to be certain, though, I will try to obtain his book on inter-library loan and then check again and report back to this Talk Page. (This process will likely take several weeks as I live in a very remote region). In the meantime, if anyone has the book and could send me a scan of this page – please email it to me –with all the publishing details (my email address is available on my User Page).
Point 1b: You state that I “deleted this content even from discussion page of Chandragupta Maurya, which was unwanted.” This is completely untrue! I removed the so-called quote from the body of the main article – not the discussion page – have a look at the appropriate entries for 11 January 2007. Please stop distorting the truth and attacking me unfairly!
Point 1c: I have discussed in detail my reasons for my suspicions about this so-called quote from the Mahavamsa more than once. In fact I asked you as early as 4th November last year (see Archives of this Talk Page) to show proof that such a quote really exists – you have still to answer me.
Point 2. What do you have against on-line books? When a published book is properly scanned there should be the whole text of the original. I checked the whole text of the English translation of the Satyartha Prakash by Swami Dayananda, Sarasvati, Chiranjiva Bharadwaja, Published 1975, Sarvadeshik Arya, Pratinidhi Sabha, 732 pages, at: http://books.google.com/books?id=920AAAAAMAAJ&vid=OCLC05080824&dq=Dayananda+Sarasvati&q=Jat&pgis=1#search I have checked for keywords such as “Jat” (and all words beginning with these three letters including “Jatji”), as well as “Popji” and other key words – without any of them occurring in the text. If you can show how and where the so-called references you are interested in occur in the printed book but not the on-line version – please do so.
Point 3: You say I: “deleted Ancient Jat rulers section from Jat People article. I do not know what is your intention. The ancient rulers believed to be Jats have some references. We can give those references and can say that further research is needed to testimony the facts. But the deletion will loose these references and we will not reach to any conclusion.”
If you check the many notes I have made you will see that I have clearly pointed out that there is no general agreement amongst on the family background of Kanishka, or the Mauryas, the evidence is extremely sparse and insufficient at the moment to prove anything. Just because someone makes a claim in print does not mean it is worthy of being included in the Wikipedia. For example: if someone published a book claiming Abraham, Adam, or Muhammad were Celts – should this be inserted in the Wikipedia as if it was worthy of consideration?
Point 4: You state: “. . . you deleted Jat reference to Krishna. Krishna was having 16000 wives and obviously his descendants are there in this world. If Jats have any ancestry linkages it will reduce his status. It is of academic interest to know the linkages. It is in Jats that there is a clan called Kasania or Krishnia meaning descendants of Krishna. You do not have counter evidences for deletion.”
I really don’t know how to answer this but, I can assure you that the vast majority of people in the world would find it rather hard to believe that Krishna had 16,000 wives. I am not critical of your religious beliefs – you are quite entitled to hold them – but please don’t expect other people to accept what you say as fact, even if it is found in some ancient scripture. If you discussed them as religious traditions and properly qualified them, I would have no argument with you – but that is not how they were presented.
If Krishna really had that many wives and died in 3102 BCE (as you have previously stated), he is very probably an ancestor of all of us – so why claim him specifically as a Jat? Why quote a Persian Muslim author who lived some four thousand years later as an authority on this subject? Furthermore, why quote someone (Alberuni) who claims he is descended from a Sudra woman if you are trying to prove he was a Jat? And, finally, if one wishes to quote from Alberuni about Krishna – should the story about Krishna’s partner (and mother?) came from a Jat family of “low Śûdra people” be included – not just the “sanitised” statement that Krishna “was a Jat.”
Point 5: I can see nothing wrong in deleting what I see as false or misleading information, legendary material presented as facts, and racially supremacist propaganda from any article (and I assure you I do the same on other pages I come across). I have had little to add to the more than ample coverage of Jats. I am well aware that “it is not the fact that only Jats are glorifying this community.” You will notice that there are huge portions of the article (in fact the majority of it) I have never questioned or discussed. There is no need for me, as you suggest, to add to the already very detailed accounts of Jat history – only to point out and/or remove questionable or falsified material.
In general, I have great admiration for Jat people and their history and am proud to have had many fine and close Jat friends. If I was a Jat I would be glad to tell the world of my ancestors’ background and history – and there would be no need at all for me to make up fanciful stories. But I would be very embarrassed and angry if I found members of my own people making false or unsubstantiated boastful claims.
In fact, I have frequently found myself facing up to “white” racists in many countries, and I believe it is my duty to speak up when this happens and not go along with it. Sometimes I have been able to reason people out of their hatreds, but I must admit that it has more often been quite ugly and frightening and I have been badly beaten for it more than once. I can’t say this has made my life easier or happier, but at least I can, after all these years, still look in the mirror and not despise myself for a coward on such issues.
Most large groups of people contain fanatic minorities who distort the past to suit their own ends, or to compensate for feelings of hurt or inferiority – especially people who have been colonised or ruled by others and had to face their scorn, and who then compensate by trying to assert their superiority over others. This is, however, a very dangerous game (just look at the horrific lessons of the last century in this regard). So, Shree Burdak, I become a very persistent critic when I see this developing and try to nip it in the bud. This is not to say that I will always be right, I am very likely to make mistakes on one or another point, but the large number of distorted statements on these pages in the past, and the many criticisms from other readers confirm that something has gone really wrong here and needs to be addressed seriously and with goodwill.
Finally, you claim I write on Raphal’s discussion page: “as if to correct the Jat article is your motto. It is not in good taste. . . . I hope you will keep a balance and not delete Jat contents. Discussions are for the betterment of Wikipedia and not to damage its contents.”
I can only answer that everything I have done has been done openly and in good faith in an attempt to improve what has seemed to me (and obviously to quite a few others) a badly flawed article. I will quote here what I said on Rahpal’s page for everyone to judge for themselves if I am guilty of what you accuse me of: “I like the way you have written the qualifications to the claims that have been made on the Jat People page about ancient Indian rulers being Jats. Hopefully this will satisfy everyone and bring this particular argument to an end.”
And on that note I will close this over-long reply.
Sincerely, John Hill 15:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Reply to Mr John Hill
[edit]Thanks Mr John Hill for your long reply. I have two points to reply urgently. Firstly Geiger’s book,referred to as the Mahavamsa. p. 27 of printed book was requested by me to verify because I do not have a copy of it. Since you are working on the subject kindly ensure from print book and let us know all. I am in too interior area to have access to a library right now. We will wait for your confirmation.
Second point to clarify about Satyarthprakash is that Arya Samaj Jamnagar (Read Vedas and Satyarthprakash on-line) is online but is not complete. I have with me a hindi copy of Satyarthprakash by Arsh Sahitya prachar trust. It has got the story I mentioned in Ch-11 on pages 234-36. It is in Hindi and is produced below -
सत्यार्थ प्रकाश में जाटजी और पोपजी की कहानी
एक जाट था । उसके घर में एक गाय बहुत अच्छी और बीस सेर दूध देने वाली थी । दूध उसका बड़ा स्वादिष्ट होता था । कभी-कभी पोपजी के मुख में भी पड़ता था । उसका पुरोहित यही ध्यान कर रहा था कि जब जाट का बुड्ढ़ा बाप मरने लगेगा तब इसी गाय का संकल्प करा लूंगा । कुछ दिन में दैवयोग से उसके बाप का मरण समय आया । जीभ बन्द हो गई और खाट से भूमि पर ले लिया अर्थात् प्राण छोड़ने का समय आ पहुंचा । उस समय जाट के इष्ट-मित्र और सम्बन्धी भी उपस्थित हुए थे । तब पोपजी पुकारा कि "यजमान ! अब तू इसके हाथ से गोदान करा ।" जाट १० रुपया निकाल कर पिता के हाथ में रखकर बोला - "पढ़ो संकल्प !" पोपजी बोला - "वाह-वाह ! क्या बाप बारम्बार मरता है ? इस समय तो साक्षात् गाय को लाओ, जो दूध देती हो, बुड्ढी न हो, सब प्रकार उत्तम हो । ऐसी गौ का दान करना चाहिये ।"
जाटजी - हमारे पास तो एक ही गाय है, उसके बिना हमारे लड़के-बालों का निर्वाह न हो सकेगा इसलिए उसको न दूंगा । लो २० रुपये का संकल्प पढ़ देओ ! और इन रुपयों से दूसरी दुधार गाय ले लेना ।
पोपजी - वाहजी वाह ! तुम अपने बाप से भी गाय को अधिक समझते हो ? क्या अपने बाप को वैतरणी नदी में डुबाकर दु:ख देना चाहते हो । तुम अच्छे सुपुत्र हुए ? तब तो पोपजी की ओर सब कुटुम्बी हो गये, क्योंकि उन सबको पहिले ही पोपजी ने बहका रक्खा था और उस समय भी इशारा कर दिया । सबने मिलकर हठ से उसी गाय का दान उसी पोपजी को दिला दिया । उस समय जाट कुछ भी न बोला । उसका पिता मर गया और पोपजी बच्छा सहित गाय और दोहने की बटलोही को ले अपने घर में गाय-बच्छे को बाँध बटलोही धर पुन: जाट के घर आया और मृतक के साथ श्मशानभूमि में जाकर दाहकर्म्म कराया । वहाँ भी कुछ-कुछ पोपलीला चलाई । पश्चात् दशगात्र सपिण्डी कराने आदि में भी उसको मूंडा । महाब्राह्मणों ने भी लूटा और भुक्खड़ों ने भी बहुत सा माल पेट में भरा अर्थात् जब सब क्रिया हो चुकी तब जाट ने जिस किसी के घर से दूध मांग-मूंग निर्वाह किया । चौदहवें दिन प्रात:-काल पोपजी के घर पहुँचा । देखा तो पोपजी गाय दुह, बटलोई भर, पोपजी की उठने की तैयारी थी । इतने में ही जाटजी पहुँचे । उसको देख पोपजी बोला, आइये ! यजमान बैठिये !
जाटजी - तुम भी पुरोहित जी इधर आओ ।
पोपजी - अच्छा दूध धर आऊँ ।
जाटजी - नहीं-नहीं, दूध की बटलोई इधर लाओ ।
पोपजी बिचारे जा बैठे और बटलोई सामने धर दी ।
जाटजी - तुम बड़े झूठे हो ।
पोपजी - क्या झूठ किया ?
जाटजी - कहो, तुमने गाय किसलिए ली थी ?
पोपजी - तुम्हारे पिता के वैतरणी नदी तरने के लिए ।
जाटजी - अच्छा तो तुमने वहाँ वैतरणी के किनारे पर गाय क्यों न पहुँचाई ? हम तो तुम्हारे भरोसे पर रहे और तुम अपने घर बाँध बैठे । न जाने मेरे बाप ने वैतरणी में कितने गोते खाये होंगे ?
पोपजी - नहीं-नहीं, वहाँ इस दान के पुण्य के प्रभाव से दूसरी गाय बनकर उसको उतार दिया होगा ।
जाटजी - वैतरणी नदी यहाँ से कितनी दूर और किधर की ओर है ?
पोपजी - अनुमान से कोई तीस करोड़ कोश दूर है । क्योंकि उञ्चास कोटि योजन पृथ्वी है और दक्षिण नैऋत दिशा में वैतरणी नदी है ।
जाटजी - इतनी दूर से तुम्हारी चिट्ठी वा तार का समाचार गया हो, उसका उत्तर आया हो कि वहाँ पुण्य की गाय बन गई, अमुक के पिता को पार उतार दिया, दिखलाओ ?
पोपजी - हमारे पास 'गरुड़पुराण' के लेख के बिना डाक वा तारवर्की दूसरा कोई नहीं ।
जाटजी - इस गरुड़पुराण को हम सच्चा कैसे मानें ?
पोपजी - जैसे हम सब मानते हैं ।
जाटजी - यह पुस्तक तुम्हारे पुरषाओं ने तुम्हारी जीविका के लिए बनाया है । क्योंकि पिता को बिना अपने पुत्रों के कोई प्रिय नहीं । जब मेरा पिता मेरे पास चिट्ठी-पत्री वा तार भेजेगा तभी मैं वैतरणी नदी के किनारे गाय पहुंचा दूंगा और उनको पार उतार, पुन: गाय को घर में ले आ दूध को मैं और मेरे लड़के-बाले पिया करेंगे, लाओ ! दूध की भरी हुई बटलोही, गाय, बछड़ा लेकर जाटजी अपने घर को चला ।
पोपजी - तुम दान देकर लेते हो, तुम्हारा सत्यानाश हो जायेगा ।
जाटजी - चुप रहो ! नहीं तो तेरह दिन लों दूध के बिना जितना दु:ख हमने पाया है, सब कसर निकाल दूंगा । तब पोपजी चुप रहे और जाटजी गाय-बछड़ा ले अपने घर पहुँचे ।
जब ऐसे ही जाटजी के से पुरुष हों तो पोपलीला संसार में न चले । Regards, burdak 17:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
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Patiala, Nabha and Jind
[edit]Every history book I have read describes these three states as Sikh Kingdoms, so what are they doing here? They were not like the other wholly Jat Kingdoms. People like Arminder Singh are testimony to this. Any comments? Preceding comment unsigned by 82.36.147.99
- Back up your {{disputed}} with citations. I've removed them, but you're welcome to place them again SHOULD you find citations. -Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 11:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Dispute
[edit]Hi,
see refrences: History of the Sikh Misals by Bhagat Singh (Punjabi University, Patiala). SN Banerjee - A History of Patiala. Tazkirah-i-Phulkian - Bute Shah. Lepel Griffin - Raja's of Punjab. Tawarikh Guru Khalsa Part 2 Gian Singh. Some points to note:
1) Patial (Nabha and Jind) -THe Phulkians - were identified as one of the Sikh Misals.
2) As a Misal they followed Gurmatta or the meeting of Sikh Misal's that conveyed at Amritsar.
3) Sikh Misal's like the Ahluwalia helped defend the Phulkian's often.
4) The citation used to back up the article are spurious.
5) The fighting forcs of the Phulkian was not Jat in content but contained, Kalal, Tarkhan, Rajput, Julahai, Mazbhai's (all Sikh's).
6) The present day ancestors of these states are intertwined in Sikh politics. Captain Arminder Singh an example.
7) Guru Hargobind (Sikh Guru) - helped form the states by giving patronage and protection to Mohan (one of the first ancestor's of the Patiala state) against hostile Bhatti Rajputs.. It would not have been formed other wise. Mohan fought at Meharaj with Guru Hargobind (as a loyal Sikh), against the Mughal's.
8) Loyalty to the 10th Sikh Guru expressed in a Hukamnama (Edict) - HUkamname - Ganda Singh.
I can cite many other reasons and sources, but I move that these are NOT Jat Kingdom's but solely Sikh one's due to formation, charachter and custom. These should be moved to Sikh section.
Censorship?
[edit]I am disturbed that so many comments are being moved so quickly to the archives. Is there a good reason for this? Several notes I wrote included questions which were never answered before they were relegated to the archives. How can one have a full and open debate when this is going on? John Hill 03:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Jats Race
[edit]John hill suggests that Jats have been mixing for a long time;however is it not totally correct.Recent evidence suggest there has been a separation in groups in recent times,for instance [1].So it more likely Jats where mixed in ancient times and less so now.In fact Jats at the ethnic level are quite mixed ,however each clan may have its own history [2].I'll include the uzbek link in the main page.Here's a quote from the paper.
'In conclusion, our results show that, although people from the same lineage and clan share generally a recent common ancestor, no such common ancestry is observed at the tribal level, which is likely to be socially constructed. Further studies of other traditional societies are needed to evaluate the extent to which the pattern observed in Central Asia can be extrapolated to other world regions. In any case, our study demonstrates that the resolution of modern genetic markers allows us to make historical investigations at the scale of kinship groups and to practice a kind of “ethnogenetics.” It explores the roots of the descent groups in patrilineal populations and reveals the mythical nature of the genealogical links between people of a tribe and their claimed ancestor. As anthropologist Lawrence Krader pointed out, “genealogy is at once ideology and history” (Krader 1963a, p. 157).' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jaspajat (talk • contribs) 17:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC).
Neutral Point of View
[edit]I believe this whole article (and associated articles on Jats) urgently needs to be carefully revised to ensure that it meets with the Wikipedia's "Neutral point of View" guidelines as it seems to contain much that could be classed as propaganda or wishful thinking - see NPOV. John Hill 23:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- Hi John Hill, NPOV should be maintained. There may be modifications as per that policy. But you have deleted Physical features section which I could not understand. When you describe an object you have to write as it is. If nose is long you have to write that. If they are strong in physique you have to write that. What is racial feature here in describing a group of people whom British called Martial Race. When it is a race you have to write that. Physical features is one of criteria to study a race. I think it may added to the article. burdak 05:37, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Shri Burdak: I am sorry I have to disagree with you. The previous section on "Physical Features" which I deleted had many things wrong with it and was anything but "neutral."
- First of all, there is no agreed-on definition of the physical characteristics which make up the so-called "Aryan race". Several groups have made claim to being descended from the "original Aryans", including people from the region around Herat and neighbouring parts of Iran (ancient Aria) and some Germans, notably the Nazis. Now, I am sure you will agree that, in general, Heratis, Germans and Jats look very different from each other - so all three claims cannot be accepted and, without convincing proof available one way or the other, one must remain neutral.
- No one really knows what are "pure Aryan features," or "pure Aryan characteristics" are. I am sure many Heratis and Germans would not agree with this way of describing Jats, and may even be offended. That is why it is so important to retain a "neutral point of view" NPOV.
- And what exactly do "pure Aryan", "unmistakably Aryan", and "non-Aryan features" mean? Have a look at the Wikipedia articles on Aryan and Aryan Race.
- Similarly, just because an old British report referred to the Jats as a "Martial Race" does not necessarily mean that the Jat were a racially distinct group. In fact, it is probably best interpreted that the Report either meant that they were a significant threat to the British or that they provided good troops for the British forces in India. The word "race" has been so misused over the years, and can imply so many different things, it is now almost meaningless unless very carefully defined by the author. See the Wikipedia article on race.
- Further, there was a long quote from a Dr. Birereton (with no proper references given) which was extremely simplistic and full of generalizations. Worse, it was very insulting of Jat people. Comments such as: "Their intellectual facilities are not brilliant partaking more of shrewedness and cunning than ability" and "The Jat women are of very strong physique exceeding man in this respect proportionately speaking. They are not remarkable for personal beauty . . ." These are outrageous generalizations mainly demonstrating the prejudices of Dr. Birereton and have no place in a serious reference work. John Hill 14:34, 2 January 2007 (UTC) I therefore, removed this offensive quote of Dr. Birereton from the article some time ago. John Hill 06:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree with John Hill ,the Racial elements of Jats are not uniform but this is the problem with wiki, it does encourage fanatics.I'm supposed to be a Jat but I differ even from my father who is a good 30% bigger in size.Some jats I know have hooked noses ,straight etc.Some Jats have almost white faces ,some have Red or brown faces.My mother is almost white but my sisters are brown.Just type in Jat in google picture search .
Was Ashoka really a Jat?
[edit]I notice a fanciful modern image of Ashoka has been added to the article, implying that Ashoka was a Jat. In fact, this hypothesis rests on very little (if any) real evidence.
There are a number of speculations as to the background of Ashoka's famous grandfather, Chandragupta Maurya, but claimed connections with the Jats seems to be based solely on unverifiable statements made by Jat "historians" on the basis of a claimed quote from the Buddhist history, the Mahavamsa: "Mauryanam Khattyanam vamsha jata", supposedly taken from p. 27 of Geiger's translation of that book.
Some time ago I specifically queried this quote on this Talk page as I could not find it anywhere in Geiger's translation (see Archives), or in the original Pali. To date, I have never had this query answered so, until the evidence is given, one must assume that this quote is suspect, and cannot be taken seriously. If someone could please find the supposed quote in the Mahavamsa and provide me with the appropriate references I would be very grateful.
Although there does not seem to be any firm historical evidence regarding the ethnicity of the Mauryas, legends state that Ashoka's mother was the daughter of a poor Brahmin (see the Wikipedia entry on Ashoka).
Until good evidence is supplied from recognised historical sources, the claim that Ashoka (or, indeed, any of the Mauryas) was a Jat should be withdrawn and removed from the Wikipedia. John Hill 23:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Character
[edit]Would any fair-minded, reasonable Jats out there please help stop excessive claims on this page? The constant self-inflating claims being made here can only serve to bring ridicule upon Jats in general, which is not fair to other Jats. I am getting tired of having to counter the many overblown accounts of Jats and Jat history on this page. This sort of self-criticism should, I believe, be done by Jats themselves - Jats who would like to see a fair and honest portrayal of their people and their history, not a propagandistic rant on racial or communal superiority.
The most recent example is a section on "Character" inserted by someone who hasn't given their name or contact details. I will delete it from the article as I don't believe much of it can be substantiated - but I will include it below with the generalizations and inflated, boastful-sounding language put into italics so that other readers can decide for themselves whether such a paragraph deserves to be in what is a supposedly neutral and fair account of the Jats. If you think I have been unfair, please let me know. Here is the paragraph I have removed (italics mine):
- Overall, the Jats have a very good self image. Jats are thoroughly independent in character, and assert personal and individual freedom, as against communal or tribal control, more strongly than any other people. They are very brave and hardworking and are filled with determination and pride. Jats usually have light brown skin, dark eyes(although light eyes are not uncommon) and dark hair.
Please don't get me wrong - there is no doubt that many Jats are strong individualists and are very hardworking and proud. But certainly ALL Jats don't share these qualities - and how can one fairly compare such characteristics with those of other groups of people? This smacks of racial prejudice to me and raises questions about the character of the author. John Hill 04:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Maurya and Jats
[edit]- Ashoka's famous grandfather, Chandragupta Maurya, has been claimed Jat on the talk page of Chandragupta Maurya, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chandragupta_Maurya, you may see it. I tried to find more evidences and I find that other sources also mention this fact. These facts are:
- According to Ram Swarup Joon Mauryans being Jats, were denigerated by Brahmans to show their cotempt. according to him, Infact Maurya was not a caste but it was a gotra of Jats which is still found in Jats. The existence of Khoye Maurya gotra in Jats proves that Mauryans were Jats. Gupta was a title of Chandragupta Maurya and not the caste, as has been proved in the history of Chandragupta Maurya. He was a warrior of Jat caste.
- Gupta is degenerated form of Gapt, which is generally considered to be a corruption of Gaut[3]. (See-Gaut)
- Mor, Maurya, Maurana are Jat gotras of very old standing. Hence the rule of this dynasty has been given a high place in history of Jats.
- The Jat historian Bhim Singh Dahiya published a paper titled The Mauryas: Their Identity (Vishveshvaranand Indological Journal, Vol. 17 (1979), p.112-133) in 1979 [1]and a book titled Jats the Ancient rulers (Jats the Ancient rulers, Dahinam Publishers, Sonipat, Haryana, by B. S. Dahiya I.R.S.) in 1982, wherein he concludes that the Mauryas were the Muras or rather Mors and were Jat of Scythian or Indo-Scythian origin. It is claimed that the Jats still have Maur or Maud as one of their clan name.[4]
- This view may become creditable only if it is accepted that the Jatts evolved from the Madras, Kekayas, Yonas, Kambojas and the Gandharas of the north-west borderlands of ancient Indian sub-continent. This is because king Ashoka's own Inscriptions refer only to the Yonas, Kambojas and the Gandharas as the most important people of his north-west frontiers during third century BCE. See: Rock Edict No 5 and Rock Edict No 13 ( Shahbazgarhi version). These are also gotras found in Jats.
- The view of Bhim Singh Dahiya that the Mauryas were Jat is supported from the fact that Khoye Maurya is clan of Jats found in Uttar Pradesh, India. The meaning of 'Khoye Maurya' is the 'lost Maurya' in Hindi language. The Khoye Maurya clan is not found in Rajputs. Moreover Madraks, Joon(Yona) and Gandharas are clans found in Jats.
- The Buddhist traditions preserved in Mahavamsa describes Chandragupta as coming of Kshatriya clan of Maurya: Mauryanam Khattyanam vamsha jata (Geiger Trans p 27). It means "Mauryas are Kshatriyas of Jat clan".
- A K Mittal in 'Political and Cultural history of India', page 126, 'Rahul Sankrityan' in 'Bauddha darshan', page 19 and Dr Atul Singh Khokhar in 'Jāton kī utpati evaṃ vistār (Jart tarangiṇī)(Origin and expansion of Jats), page 113, have mentioned with reference to Mahavansha and 'tatva prakashini' that Mauryas are kshatriyas belonging to Jat vansha.
- Dr Atal Singh Khokhar further writes, in 'Jāton kī utpati evaṃ vistār (Jart tarangiṇī)(Origin and expansion of Jats), at page 139 of the above book that Chandragupta Maurya has been mentioned in 'divyadān' as under in sanskrit:-
- Moriyānaṃ khattīyānaṃ vaṃse jātaṃ sirīḍaraṃ chandraguttoti pañcata cāṇakyo brāhmaṇo tato navamaṃ dhanantaṃ ghātetvā caṇdakodhasā saṃkale jambūdvīāriha rajja sammisincisī
- Meaning - Chandragupta, born un Maurya kshatriya vansha, killed nine Nandas with the help of Chanakya and established his rule in entire Jambudvipa.
- In the above sanskrit text it has been mentioned as chandragutt. Bhim Singh Dahiya has brought out to the layman reader, that Chandragupta Maurya, the Kushans, the second Guptas, and Harshavardhana were Jats. He showed how the G letter was a substitution for the J sound, as the J letter did not exist in the ancient Greek alphabet. The significance was in determining who the Guti were. According to Bhim Singh Dahiya by applying Grimm's law Guti becomes Juti or Jati or Jat.
- As per Spunar the ancestral abode of Mauryas was at 'Parshupur', who were Jatri (Jatrana) Jats of Mand Empire. Mand is also a Jat gotra. (see Mand)
- Maurya is not found in any other kshatriya caste. The logic that Mauryans being Jats, were denigerated by Brahmans to show their cotempt, further makes the claim strong.
- The above evidences show connection of Mauryas with Jats. burdak 16:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Ancestry of the Mauryas
[edit]Dear Sri Burdak: Thank you for getting me to have a look at the long, often heated, and, I believe, inconclusive, arguments about the ancestry of Chandragupta Maurya.
I think any neutral person would have to agree with the statement on the main page about Chandragupta Maurya that: "The ancestry of Chandragupta is still shrouded in mystery and not known for certain [30]. There are divergent views regarding the origin, and each view has its own set of adherents."
More long and detailed arguments on the subject can be found on the Ancestry of Chandragupta Maurya page. There is no need to repeat them all here.
What is clear is that this is a very contentious subject and, therefore, in keeping with the Wikipedia NPOV policy, articles should contain suitable qualifiers to any such claims. Therefore, it is permissible to make a statement such as: "many Jats writers believe (or claim) that Ashoka (or whomever) was a Jat" - so long as this is backed up by references. However, as there are so many competing points of view, it is not permissible to make a claim that Ashoka or Chandragupta was a Jat.
I will, therefore, go through this article and make some qualifications to any such claims and also remove the modern picture which claims to represent Ashoka Maurya which, in the interest of fairness, should not be represented on the Jat page. Moreover, I don't think it is known what he looked like, so this image is just some modern artist's fantasy.
Finally, I will ask you one last time if you (or any other readers) could please try to find the claimed reference to Ashoka being a Jat in the Mahavamsa which you keep referring to? I can find no trace of it in Geiger's translation or the Pali text. But if it does exist, and it can be checked in reputable sources, it is indeed an important reference which I think should be much better known.
If it does not exist, one can only assume the claim was made falsely and, therefore, it puts many of the other 'historical quotes' about Jats in this article into question. John Hill 00:45, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
- Who should we believe a westerners view of Indian history or an Indians view.Western historians have often made claims without any facts eg scythians were blonde blue eyed europeans etc without question.
Please refrain from racist taunts
[edit]I strongly object to, and totally reject, the racist taunts made above by some anonymous author - someone without the decency to even sign his or her comments.
There is absolutely no valid reason to judge the accuracy of an historian on race or nationality. This is a clear case of racial prejudice. There have, indeed, been many biased accounts of Indian history made by both European and Indian writers. In fact, Sri Burdak below refers to bias by some Brahmin authors. Is this the sort of "Indians view" the author would like to have featured on this page?
Furthermore, if the author had taken the time to check my comments above they would have seen that I have already objected to biased, racist comments made by a "European" author against Jats, and therefore removed them from the article.
So, please refrain from this sort of ugly divisive nonsense in future. My only goal in contributing to this article is to present as accurate and unbiased account of Jats and their history as possible, so that Jats and everyone else may be able to have a reliable account of their culture and history.
I should add that this comment was made from the IP address 213.48.46.141 - see: User talk:213.48.46.141, which is a public-access site registered to The Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames in England. It has been the source of a number of cases of vandalism on the Wikipedia and has been blocked several times in the past. I will report this racist comment on the talk page of that site and ask that it be blocked (again). John Hill 23:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
There is nothing racist about the following statement
[edit]'Who should we believe a westerners view of Indian history or an Indians view.Western historians have often made claims without any facts eg scythians were blonde blue eyed europeans etc without question.'
Just because John Hill does not like the comment it does not make it racist.It was not directed to anybody but is a statement of fact .The idea that there is no valid reason to question european authors, has John Hill forgotton the Nazis.On one hand John Hill complains about censorship which I attempted to correct,but when he reads something that he misinterprets or disagrees with he beomes the censor.The fact is I was the one who started the genetics section of this page (even though it is not very good).But it is the only section that is impartial and non-rascist.(As far as other Kingston users are concerned I can not comment).
As for Indian sources ,the idea that hindu jat nationalist sources are impartial or Brahmin sources are impartial is absolutely nonsense.
In Fact many sources John Hill and Burdak quote ,even the reading of ancient texts have been biased by western imperialist and nationalist,to point this fact out is not racist.
Dear Anonymous - please apologise
[edit]Your statement above ("'Who should we believe a westerners view of Indian history or an Indians view.Western historians have often made claims without any facts eg scythians were blonde blue eyed europeans etc without question") is clearly racist as it implies one should believe an Indian's view of Indian history over a "Westerner's" view, basing one's belief solely on their place of origin, rather than on the evidence they present.
This kind of extreme generalization based on a person's origins, and avoidance of dealing with the evidence is, by it's very nature, racist and repugnant, whether you wish to admit this or not.
I have never in my life suggested that I believe there is "no valid reason to question european authors". This is a completely unwarranted, unjustified and unjustifiable attack on myself and my character.
There can be no doubt that many "Westerners" are prejudiced and have many have presented biased accounts of Indian history - something I have always openly acknowledged - but so have many Indians.
Also, how can you ask: "has John Hill forgotten the Nazis"? when in my note above on this very same page (see: "Neutral point of view"), I specifically mention the Nazis and their racist fantasy that they were the true descendants of the "original Aryans"? Please, whoever you are, at least check your facts before you start writing.
I believe you owe me a public apology - although from the sort of untrue and hateful things you have already said I suspect I am asking in vain - but, please, it would be a very pleasant and welcome surprise if you did. Maybe then we could have a constructive dialogue and, together, help make a more accurate and trustworthy history of the Jat people available to readers of the Wikipedia.
I have nothing more to say at present - but if you wish to write to or about me again, please do at least pay me the courtesy of providing a name for me to reply to. (Perhaps you are ashamed to use your own name and prefer to hide behind a cloak of anonymity like some latter-day Ku Klux Klanner?) Even a "nom de plume" would be preferable than for me to have to reply to some nameless entity. Thank you. John Hill 03:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- Ok MR Hill who should we believe a Englishman or an Indian when it comes to the history of the Ango-saxons.No apology is required ,as I pointed out my comments are not directed to you, if they where I will state it as I have done now.As for term westerner,you seem to imply a racial connotation ,I am a westerner interms of language/culture but I am not white.Why do you assume all western historians are not descended from India.As to being anonymous,it is called freedom of expression.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.48.46.141 (talk • contribs) 15:41, 11 January 2007
Reply to Anonymous
[edit]- OK Anonymous - I will try to get through to you on these issues once again. First, I do not judge any historian's credibility on their race, colour, place of birth, sex, or cultural affiliations. I would not believe ANYTHING on the basis that the person who said it was an Englishman or an Indian. Do you?
- In regards to history, whenever I can, I check the original evidence. When this is not possible, I try to check everything I can about the subject, including competing theories, and then assess the understanding, knowledge and competency of the historian and make an informed judgment about whether it is worth my while taking their theories or statements seriously. Then, I may "accept" their arguments as a "working theory", at least until further evidence or better arguments become available. (Please note that I have not used the word "believe" here - I do not "believe" historical matters unless there is really strong and convincing historical and/or archaeological evidence and, even then, I am always open to change my assessment if new information contradicts what I previously accepted).
- You are the one who first implied a racial connotation as your comments suggest that "Western" historians cannot be trusted (at least in regard to Indian history), while Indian ones can. You are the one who put "Westerner" and "Indian" historians in opposition - not me.
- What ever do you mean by stating that I "assume all western historians are not descended from India"? I don't understand what you could possibly mean by such a comment. I have never said any such thing.
- I agree, you certainly have the right to remain anonymous, but it does seems a bit rude and cowardly to make serious accusations about a person's character from behind a veil of secrecy.
- Several of your accusations and insinuations about me I find not only false but highly offensive (such as the one where you imply that I believe that "there is no valid reason to question european authors"). Unfortunately, it is clear you don't intend be reasonable and fair, or to make an apology. Unless and until you change your mind, I have nothing further to say to you, although I reserve the right to point out to other readers any false, misleading or racist comments that you may make in future. John Hill 03:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Jat history recognition
[edit]Thanks John Hill, for your comments. I had earlier also asked you about the comment refered about Jats in Mahavansha to verify. As I have reproduced some sanskrit verson from the authors refered above such as A K Mittal in 'Political and Cultural history of India', page 126, 'Rahul Sankrityan' in 'Bauddha darshan'etc, these are not Jats but reputed authors. They have also mentioned it. We have to find in Mahavamsa and 'tatva prakashini' books refered. I do not have these books.
I have added in my earlier note by giving Grimm's law how historians have come to conclusion that Gupta were Jats. In sanskrit version I quoted above gutt is for jutt or jat. If some body has these books may bring first hand facts from them.
In Indian history there is a lot of bias against Jats. The traditional writers and record keepers were brahmans. Jats were not in proper tuning with them because they did not believe in superstions and false ficticious preachings. So origin of Jat rulers were termed 'shrouded in mystery' or they were called even Shudras. This thing has been made clear by Deva Samhita, which is there in the text of the Jat article. In the shloka-17 of 'Deva Samhitā' when Pārvatī asks about the origin of Jats, Shiva tells Parvati that:
- गर्व खर्चोत्र विग्राणां देवानां च महेश्वरी Garva kharchotra vigrānam devānām cha maheshwarī
- विचित्रं विस्मयं सत्वं पौराण कै साङ्गीपितं Vichitram vismayam satvam Pauran kai sāngīpitam || 17 ||
- Meaning - "The history of origin of Jats is extremely wonderful and their antiquity glorious. The Pundits of history did not record their annals lest it should injure and impair their false pride and of the vipras and gods. We describe that realistic history before you."
For the reasons behind these historical facts you have to understand Jat people. I do not know to what extent you have interaction with Jats or if you have ever lived with them. There is one saying about Jats that they are good masters but bad subordinates. They are very egoist and if somebody hurts his ego he can go to any extent in revenge. R.C.Majumdar is a very reputed author of Indian history. Even he also recognized that there was bias in writing the history of Jats. R.C.Majumdar in his book "History of culture of the people of India, the clasical age" (page 42) writes about their role in stemming the tide of Islam for two centuries as under:
- "From the very commencement through every one of these routes. The early naval raids against Thana, Baroch and Debal and subsequent raids in the same direction mark the vain efforts to reach India by sea, of the land routes, the Kheyber pass was guarded by Kabul and Zabul while the Bolan pass was protected by the brave Jats of Kikan, If there had been history of India written without prejudices and predilections the heroic deeds of these brave people, the jats who stemmed the tide of Islam for two centuries, would certainly have received the recognition they so richly deserved." burdak 17:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Reply to the above note
[edit]Dear Sri Burdak: Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful reply to my comments. I agree with you that many accounts of Jats and their history have been very biased and even racist. It is for this very reason that I think it is so important to try to present as reliable, and as accurate an account as is possible now. Repeating others' claims without checking their sources is always dangerous.
Making overblown claims about the background of any nation or group of people is just as misleading and divisive as understating their achievements and, in the long run, will only serve to hurt the people about whom the overblown claims are made - as well as fostering resentment and even hate from other groups. So, I believe, it is most important to be as accurate as possible and, when we are not certain of our facts, to clearly state this.
Ideally, a comprehensive review of Jat history should be undertaken where claims made are carefully checked against original sources by well-qualified and neutral scholars. I am certainly not qualified to do this myself and so I am appealing to other readers who are qualified to please do this much-needed research.
I first became involved in this dispute because I objected to claims that Kanishka was a Jat. After studying Kushan history for almost 30 years I have come to the conclusion that, until more evidence surfaces, there is no way to be certain of Kanishka's ethnic background, or even his first language.
I would be thrilled if someone could find the reported quote from the Mahavamsa apparently linking the Mauryas to the Jats. The Mahavamsa is regarded as a generally reliable document on Sri Lankan history and such a quote in it would be an important discovery. However, even if it does exist (and I have made quite a thorough search without finding it), we must remember that the Mahavamsa was not written down until about the 6th century CE - some 800 years after the fall of the Mauryas, and so such a quote would still have to be referred to with some qualification.
Now, to a couple of other points: Yes, I agree, R. C. Majumdar is "a very reputed author of Indian history", and I am sure he is quite right that the role Jats have played in the history of India has often been understated and unrecognised.
And, yes, I have known many Jats throughout my life; some of whom have been amongst my closest friends - which is why I have a particular interest in this page. I grew up in Trinidad in the West Indies among the descendants of Indian migrants and many of my playmates and schoolmates were of Indian descent. Most of them were Hindus and Muslims, but only a few were Jats. However, one of my best friends as a young man was Jitander Singh, a Sikh of Jat descent, who I worked with in a Virus research laboratory. Later, in Vancouver, Canada I came to know many Sikh Jats (one of whom I dated for several months). I have made several trips and spent several years in India and Pakistan, much of that time in the Punjab. I have shared houses with Jats, worked with Jats, and socialised with Jats but, I must admit, I am no expert on Jat history and culture, though I do have a personal interest in them. I hope this answers your questions. Sincerely, John Hill 00:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Whose a jat
[edit]Why does this article assume the Jats of today are the same as the Jats of the past.Ethnic groups are fluid and it is very likely that many of the Jats of today have no relation to the Jats of the past.For instance Indo-greeks of the past are probably now Jats or Brahmins or even Dalits.Also the item on the life style is rather biased,for instance to state that Jats of today don't it meat is nonsense .Muslim Jats eat meat, many sikh Jats eat meat (and drink).One can only say that 'most Hindu ' Jats don't eat meat,and that is more to do with fact they are Hindu rather than being a Jat.Plus many muslim Jats marry cousins,in fact the item should be headed 'Life style of Indian Hindu Jats'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.48.46.141 (talk) 15:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC).
A plea to put a stop to untruthful, misleading entries
[edit]On 28th January, 2007 someone working from a computer with the ID of 213.122.25.190 changed the statement: "According to some Jat writers ancient Jat kingdoms include those of:
He or she changed the first part of this statement (without noting that this is what they had done) to read: "According to historians and scholars[38]. some ancient Jat kingdoms included those of:"
Now, this sentence very misleading because, in fact, many, if not most, modern historians and scholars would NOT agree with this statement.
But, even worse, the reference given is to Swami Dayananda Saraswati's book Satyarth Prakash and I have just checked the translation of this book and cannot find a single reference to any of these kings or to Jats in it. So, whoever has inserted this lie has obviously been intending to mislead readers.
Please - the Wikipedia is not the place to be pushing some kind of nationalistic or racist propaganda and all right-minded persons, including, I feel certain, most Jats, would be horrified at this misuse of the Wikipedia.
This is not the first time this kind of trick has been played on this page. This sort of malicious nonsense will only serve to bring Jats in general into disrepute.
Moreover, I don't have the time to keep policing it and checking for false references and the like, and nor should I have to. Would other readers and editors please keep a close eye on this page (and ones associated with it) to make sure this doesn't keep happening? Come on all you fair-minded Jats - help put a stop to this deliberate misrepresentation of your history! It is quite glorious enough without being artificially pumped up with lies and misrepresentations.
I will, for the moment, change the wording back to what it was previously.
Sincerely, John Hill 10:16, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Sort of the neutrality issue
[edit]Do NOT remove warning tags. Explain, or it will be reverted. - Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 05:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Do not delete contents
[edit]I find that some contents of the article and talk page have been deleted without any explaination. The Archive of this talk page is blank. It should be reverted back. Opinions may differ but we should reach to some conclusions before deletion. Contents on page may be ratained till strong counter evidences are available. burdak 06:59, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Reverted Archives
[edit]Dear Shri Burdak (and other interested readers): I have restored the Archives as best I could. This is the first time I have done such a thing so I hope I have done it properly - but please let me know if I have missed anything or done anything wrong. Cheers, John Hill 14:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- Dear John Hill, Thanks for the action of restoring the deleted content from talk page. It is OK.burdak 02:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Who is having who on? Please help make this a good, balanced account of Jats and their culture.
[edit]I just noticed the following overblown racist nonsense in the "Life and Culture of Jats" section:
- "Jats are thoroughly independent in character -this was noticed many times by British Empire army officiers- and assert personal and individual freedom, as against communal or tribal control, more strongly than any other people. . . . Jats are by nature adamant if they are treated with contempt or injustice. They are independent by nature, self-conscious, and never hesitate to give their life for their people in times of war."
Does the writer really think anyone other than a fanatic is going to believe that Jats "assert personal and individual freedom, as against communal or tribal control, more strongly than any other people."? Or that they (presumably meaning ALL Jats): "never hesitate to give their life for their people in times of war."
Does the writer really think that only Jats get upset if they are treated with contempt or injustice? Does the writer not realise that, by making such statements, he (or she) is treating ALL other peoples with contempt?
Such ridiculously overstated generalizations and comments have no place in an Encyclopedia such as the Wikipedia and will only cause readers to ridicule Jats and see them as braggarts, racists and liars. It can only bring Jats in general into disrepute - and this would be totally unfair to other Jats.
I am getting very tired of trying to tidy this page up and make it a reasoned, balanced account of Jats and their culture - and nor should I have to - I am not a Jat. There must be plenty of very sensible and well-educated Jats out there who would be embarrassed to see this sort of divisive nonsense being promoted in public.
Please, would some level-headed Jat take this responsibility on themselves? And, while you are at it, please have a look at all the other articles related to Jats and purge them of this sort of garbage? John Hill 10:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Harshavardhana was probably not a Jat
[edit]I have just removed Harshavardahana from the list of ancient rulers claimed to be Jats. According to Xuanzang, Harsha was of the 吙舍 feishe or Vaishya caste. See: Watters, Thomas. On Yuan Chwang's Travels in India. Two volumes. 1904-1905, Royal Asiatic Society, London. One volume reprint: Munshiram Manoharlal, Delhi, 1973, pp. 343-345; and the Grand dictionnaire Ricci de la langue chinoise. 7 volumes. Instituts Ricci (Paris – Taipei). Desclée de Brouwer. 2001. Vol. II, p. 578.
However, according to some historians they were Jats, but this appears to be based solely on a suggestion made by Alexander Cunningham in 1871 that Xuanzang must have mistaken "the Vaisa, or Bais Rajput for the Vaiya, or Bais, which is the name of the mercantile class of the Hindus". Cunningham, Alexander. The Ancient Geography of India: The Buddhist Period, Including the Campaigns of Alexander, and the Travels of Hwen-Thsang. 1871, Thübner and Co. Reprint by Elbiron Classics. 2003., p. 377.
As Thomas Watters has pointed out, this is most unlikely as Xuanzang, "had ample opportunities for learning the antecedents of the royal family, and he must have had some ground for his assertion." Watters, Thomas. On Yuan Chwang's Travels in India. Two volumes. 1904-1905, Royal Asiatic Society, London. One volume reprint: Munshiram Manoharlal, Delhi, 1973, pp. 344-345.
Proponents of this improbable hypothesis apparently include: Bhim Singh Dahiya in his Jats, the Ancient Rulers, A clan study in the Pre Islamic period, 1982, Sterling Publishers New Delhi. and Thakur Deshraj, in Jat Itihas (Hindi), Maharaja Suraj Mal Smarak Shiksha Sansthan, Delhi, 1934, 2nd edition 1992 page 87-88. who apparently claim that "Harsha’s clan was Virk, but Dilip Singh Ahlawat claims that he belonged to the Bains clan of Jats. The Virk clan is linked to the Virks of Mandsaur, Central India, and Bains to the Punjab. Both Bains and Virk are said to be clans of the Jats."
For more details see the revised page on Harsha. John Hill 05:51, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Request for an apology by Ravi Chaudhary
[edit]Ravi Chaudhary:
Thank you for your recent invitation to join your Jat History Yahoo group (at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/) to present my “arguments” regarding my comments on articles relating to Jats on the Wikipedia. Regretfully, I must decline as I am already over-committed to a number of on-line groups as well as working on Wikipedia articles and preparing three books for publication. I really cannot take on more at this time.
What I would like to say to your readers, and readers of the Wikipedia, is that I am more than happy to discuss the reasons for any suggestions or changes I make to Wikipedia articles on the appropriate “Talk” or “discussion” pages in the Wikipedia itself.
I should also add that any comments I have made in the past or may make in the future have been and will always be signed by me, with my real name, John Hill. You can be assured that any remarks or changes made in the Wikipedia without my name attached were not made by me.
Now, I would like to reply to the comments you have posted today (3rd March, 2007) on your group’s discussion page about me and my work which I think are unfair and offensive.
Someone wrote in to your group suggesting that I am “basically a good scholar” and that I have posted a [draft] translation from the Hou Hanshu on the internet. You have replied: “Unfortunately, he has become so enamored with those manuscripts that he has started to believe them to be the gospel truth. There is a difference between making a translation and then reinterpreting \ the translation. . . .”
I am at a loss as to what could possibly have led you to make this false accusation. If anyone would like to go back over my discussions on the Jat “Talk” page (and the archives) they will find that I have only once made a very brief reference to the texts I have been translating (and never even mentioned them by name). All my other remarks are based on, or refer to, other sources. And to say that I “have started to believe them to be the gospel truth” is a most unfair and unwarranted attack on my integrity as a scholar and, indeed, as a person.
Mr. Chaudhary, I ask you for a public apology both on your list and in the Wikipedia. John Hill 00:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Article in need of help
[edit]There are some very prejudicial remarks in this article which I have tried to remove such as "Jats are thoroughly independent in character - this was noticed many times by British Empire army officiers, assert personal and individual freedom, as against communal or tribal control, more strongly than any other people. They usually have light brown skin, dark eyes (although light eyes are not uncommon), dark hair"
This is offensive as this makes an exclusive trait of something that is an inherent human faculty in many tribes, races and peoples. Therefore removed.
The reference of usually light brown skin and occasional light eyes is nonsense as what survey or research has been done on the Millions of Jats of India, Pakistan, UK, USA and around the world to be able to assert such a strong claim? They are obviously Indians so appear Indian in appearance. I feel the article is trying it's best to assert foreign origins, looks and even native traditions.
The food habit section is nonsensical and it's relevance in this article is questionable. Does the Jat race have it's own unique eating habits?! Does any other Indian tribe (not religion, I said tribe) have it's own unique eating habits? I feel this should be removed or re worded.
The reference of constant conflict with Gakkers etc by the time of babur is again wrong. The actual babur-nama, states that the Gakkhers were the chiefs and rulers of the Jats. Even ravi said it was untenable in the archived page, but still allowed it to remain in the article and thus continue to mislead readers. Hence removed.
Where is the mention of the migrations of many Jat tribes into Kashmir? Mirpur is dominated by Jats and yet no mention of their history is made. Do only the ancient "questionable" theories only warrant room here? What of the simple farmers and hardworking Jat tribes who never fought but remained peaceful cultivators? What do the Jat chronicles state regarding this area of the tribes history?
I will look into further work on here as I get time. At the moment, a lot of work needs to be done.
Any further suggestions welcome.
--Rahpal 15:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC) Have changed much of the language which was very biased. But vandals seem to be changing it back. I dont see why clarifying points and tidying up the language would make people angry and change it back. This is not a Jat site, so please stop making trouble here.--Rahpal 20:33, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
- Dear Rahpal, you seem to be born on Wikipedia on 4 March 2007 and have deleted lot of content from Jat page. If you go on deleting this way it will be left with a stub. You are deleting well referenced paras saying no proof. When it is cited properly what proof is needed? When Babur wrote Babarnama he wrote about himself only why should he write about deed of Jats or Rajputs. How can you say he was wrong? Have you contributed this article or any other article on Wikipedia about a social group. You go to Rajput article and find that men are born from fire or by the power of mantras. See here a para from Rajput article produced here "The Agnivanshi lineage, claims descent from four persons who were born from fire or by the influence of Ved Mantras. According to Pouranic legend as found in Bhavishya Purana,an yagna was held at Mount Abu, at the time of emperor Ashoka's sons. From the influence of Mantras of the four Vedas four Kshatriyas were born". Now have tried to correct it? Why are you so worried about Jat article? Your good contributions are welcome but go on deleting can not be understood. If you know about Jats something then add. There seems bias in your approach. Please refrain from deletion. burdak 13:52, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Deletion of section referring to a claim by Alberuni that Krishna was a Jat
[edit]I have just removed the section where it was claimed that: "The Persian traveller Biruni stated that Lord Krishna was a Jat . . .". Alberuni claims that Krishna (Vâsudeva) had a child in Mathura by a Jatt and that this child was also called Vâsudeva. In his account of this, Alberuni refers to his mother as coming from "a Jatt family, cattle-owners, low Śûdra people." This may very well have been an attempt by a Muslim writer to denigrate the Hindu god. (Sachau, Edward, C. Alberuni's India. Rupa & Co. 2002. p. 396. ISBN 978-8171676408). I, therefore, don't think this derogatory reference to a much-loved Hindu god has any place in a general article on the Jat people. In any case, this is an obviously legendary story which has little, if any, historical value. John Hill 02:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Don't be biased
[edit]Hi Dear John Hill, I have gone through your recent edits and notes. It seems there is some bias in your edits against Jats. Firstly you deleted reference of Jats in Mahavamsa simply because on the basis of the fact that you did not find it in Online edition of Mahavamsa, without going in to details of the printed book which had been referred. You deleted this content even from discussion page of Chandragupta Maurya, which was unwanted. Entries from discussion pages are not to be deleted. Secondly you mentioned that Swami Dayananda has not mentioned about Jats simply on the basis of Online Edition of Satyartha Prakash. Here it is to be made clear that in his book Satyartha Prakash he has mentioned about Jats specifically a story of Jatji and Popji in which he ridicules the orthodox philosophy of Brahmans and how Jatji rectified. He has also given chronology of Aryan rulers in Satyartha Prakash. Before deletion you should be fully sure. Thirdly you deleted Ancient Jat rulers section from Jat People article. I do not know what is your intention. The ancient rulers believed to be Jats have some references. We can give those references and can say that further research is needed to testimony the facts. But the deletion will loose these references and we will not reach to any conclusion. Lastly you deleted Jat reference to Krishna. Krishna was having 16000 wives and obviously his descendants are there in this world. If Jats have any ancestry linkages it will reduce his status. It is of academic interest to know the linkages. It is in Jats that there is a clan called Kasania or Krishnia meaning descendants of Krishna. You do not have counter evidences for deletion. You contributed minimum contents to this article on Jats but doing the deletion work regularly. When you do not have any content to contribute then how can you decide which content needs deletion lacking the facts when references are already there. The historians who have mentioned these linkages are not Jats only but from all castes of Indian society. So it is not the fact that only Jats are glorifying this community. The existence of more than 3000 clans in the Jat caste shows its social diversity and should be considered as a testimony that these have been rulers in ancient times. In India the social groups have been always aligned with the ruling people. Because of this fact we find many clans common in Jats, Rajputs and Gujars, as they have been rulers at different periods in history. I have also seen your comments on Raphal’s discussion page where you write as if to correct the Jat article is your motto. It is not in good taste. It appears that your discussion with Ravi Chaudhary has made you to be biased. I hope you will keep a balance and not delete Jat contents. Discussions are for the betterment of Wikipedia and not to damage its contents. burdak 10:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Reply to Shree Burdak - “history” versus “legend”
[edit]Dear Shree Burdak: It seems to me that we have had this discussion in various forms several times already and it is certainly getting to be very tiresome, repetitive and long-winded. I will try once more to make myself clear – but if these differences continue I will have to appeal for help from the Wikipedia Administrators. I apologise in advance for the length of my reply but you have raised a number of points and made a number of accusations.
What I have objected to on the Jat page have been the many and regular confusions between legendary material and well-documented historical events as well as unsupported, or misquoted (and even sometimes falsely supported or attributed) claims made by various writers.
Even worse, perhaps, have been the grossly inflated claims and frequent racist comments, showing that this page has been made the forum of some ruthless people with a very low regard for accuracy and truth.
As you are well aware, many other readers have also been complaining about these issues and there have been numerous arguments on these Talk pages about them – it is not just me as you seem to be implying.
This continuing bickering and re-editing is a huge waste of time. I suggest that the whole matter should be reported to Administrators to check the article and all the many references and maybe “lock it”, or restrict access to it after that process is completed.
However, as you specifically refer to edits I have made, I will take this opportunity to answer them (again) one by one, in the order in which you brought them up.
Point 1a: You have made the comment that I have: “deleted reference of Jats in Mahavamsa simply because on the basis of the fact that you did not find it in Online edition of Mahavamsa, without going in to details of the printed book which had been referred.”
As I did not have a copy of the book available, I did check the on-line version at: http://lakdiva.org/mahavamsa/editorsnote.html which claims to be the full scanned text of the first 37 chapters of Geiger’s book, which are, apparently, the only sections he referred to as the Mahavamsa. One can only assume that p. 27 of his printed book (which you refer to) must have been included in this scan – especially as it is claimed to be from the Mahavamsa. Just to be certain, though, I will try to obtain his book on inter-library loan and then check again and report back to this Talk Page. (This process will likely take several weeks as I live in a very remote region). In the meantime, if anyone has the book and could send me a scan of this page – please email it to me –with all the publishing details (my email address is available on my User Page).
Point 1b: You state that I “deleted this content even from discussion page of Chandragupta Maurya, which was unwanted.” This is completely untrue! I removed the so-called quote from the body of the main article – not the discussion page – have a look at the appropriate entries for 11 January 2007. Please stop distorting the truth and attacking me unfairly!
Point 1c: I have discussed in detail my reasons for my suspicions about this so-called quote from the Mahavamsa more than once. In fact I asked you as early as 4th November last year (see Archives of this Talk Page) to show proof that such a quote really exists – you have still to answer me.
Point 2. What do you have against on-line books? When a published book is properly scanned there should be the whole text of the original. I checked the whole text of the English translation of the Satyartha Prakash by Swami Dayananda, Sarasvati, Chiranjiva Bharadwaja, Published 1975, Sarvadeshik Arya, Pratinidhi Sabha, 732 pages, at: http://books.google.com/books?id=920AAAAAMAAJ&vid=OCLC05080824&dq=Dayananda+Sarasvati&q=Jat&pgis=1#search I have checked for keywords such as “Jat” (and all words beginning with these three letters including “Jatji”), as well as “Popji” and other key words – without any of them occurring in the text. If you can show how and where the so-called references you are interested in occur in the printed book but not the on-line version – please do so.
Point 3: You say I: “deleted Ancient Jat rulers section from Jat People article. I do not know what is your intention. The ancient rulers believed to be Jats have some references. We can give those references and can say that further research is needed to testimony the facts. But the deletion will loose these references and we will not reach to any conclusion.”
If you check the many notes I have made you will see that I have clearly pointed out that there is no general agreement amongst scholars on the family background of Kanishka, or the Mauryas, the evidence is extremely sparse and insufficient at the moment to prove anything. Just because someone makes a claim in print does not mean it is worthy of being included in the Wikipedia. For example: if someone published a book claiming Abraham, Adam, or Muhammad were Celts – should this be inserted in the Wikipedia as if it was worthy of consideration?
Point 4: You state: “. . . you deleted Jat reference to Krishna. Krishna was having 16000 wives and obviously his descendants are there in this world. If Jats have any ancestry linkages it will reduce his status. It is of academic interest to know the linkages. It is in Jats that there is a clan called Kasania or Krishnia meaning descendants of Krishna. You do not have counter evidences for deletion.”
I really don’t know how to answer this but, I can assure you that the vast majority of people in the world would find it rather hard to believe that Krishna had 16,000 wives. I am not critical of your religious beliefs – you are quite entitled to hold them – but please don’t expect other people to accept what you say as fact, even if it is found in some ancient scripture. If you discussed them as religious traditions and properly qualified them, I would have no argument with you – but that is not how they were presented.
If Krishna really had that many wives and died in 3102 BCE (as you have previously stated), he is very probably an ancestor of all of us – so why claim him specifically as a Jat? Why quote a Persian Muslim author who lived some four thousand years later as an authority on this subject? Furthermore, why quote someone (Alberuni) who claims he is descended from a Sudra woman if you are trying to prove he was a Jat? And, finally, if one wishes to quote from Alberuni about Krishna – should the story about Krishna’s partner (and mother?) came from a Jat family of “low Śûdra people” be included – not just the “sanitised” statement that Krishna “was a Jat.”
Point 5: I can see nothing wrong in deleting what I see as false or misleading information, legendary material presented as facts, and racially supremacist propaganda from any article (and I assure you I do the same on other pages I come across). I have had little to add to the more than ample coverage of Jats. I am well aware that “it is not the fact that only Jats are glorifying this community.” You will notice that there are huge portions of the article (in fact the majority of it) I have never questioned or discussed. There is no need for me, as you suggest, to add to the already very detailed accounts of Jat history – only to point out and/or remove questionable or falsified material.
In general, I have great admiration for Jat people and their history and am proud to have had many fine and close Jat friends. If I was a Jat I would be glad to tell the world of my ancestors’ background and history – and there would be no need at all for me to make up fanciful stories. But I would be very embarrassed and angry if I found members of my own people making false or unsubstantiated boastful claims.
In fact, I have frequently found myself facing up to “white” racists in many countries, and I believe it is my duty to speak up when this happens and not go along with it. Sometimes I have been able to reason people out of their hatreds, but I must admit that it has more often been quite ugly and frightening and I have been badly beaten for it more than once. I can’t say this has made my life easier or happier, but at least I can, after all these years, still look in the mirror and not despise myself for a coward on such issues.
Most large groups of people contain fanatic minorities who distort the past to suit their own ends, or to compensate for feelings of hurt or inferiority – especially people who have been colonised or ruled by others and had to face their scorn, and who then compensate by trying to assert their superiority over others. This is, however, a very dangerous game (just look at the horrific lessons of the last century in this regard). So, Shree Burdak, I become a very persistent critic when I see this developing and try to nip it in the bud. This is not to say that I will always be right, I am very likely to make mistakes on one or another point, but the large number of distorted statements on these pages in the past, and the many criticisms from other readers confirm that something has gone really wrong here and needs to be addressed seriously and with goodwill.
Finally, you claim I write on Raphal’s discussion page: “as if to correct the Jat article is your motto. It is not in good taste. . . . I hope you will keep a balance and not delete Jat contents. Discussions are for the betterment of Wikipedia and not to damage its contents.”
I can only answer that everything I have done has been done openly and in good faith in an attempt to improve what has seemed to me (and obviously to quite a few others) a badly flawed article. I will quote here what I said on Rahpal’s page for everyone to judge for themselves if I am guilty of what you accuse me of: “I like the way you have written the qualifications to the claims that have been made on the Jat People page about ancient Indian rulers being Jats. Hopefully this will satisfy everyone and bring this particular argument to an end.”
And on that note I will close this over-long reply.
Sincerely, John Hill 15:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Reply to Mr John Hill
[edit]Thanks Mr John Hill for your long reply. I have two points to reply urgently. Firstly Geiger’s book,referred to as the Mahavamsa. p. 27 of printed book was requested by me to verify because I do not have a copy of it. Since you are working on the subject kindly ensure from print book and let us know all. I am in too interior area to have access to a library right now. We will wait for your confirmation.
Second point to clarify about Satyarthprakash is that Arya Samaj Jamnagar (Read Vedas and Satyarthprakash on-line) is online but is not complete. I have with me a hindi copy of Satyarthprakash by Arsh Sahitya prachar trust. It has got the story I mentioned in Ch-11 on pages 234-36. It is in Hindi and is produced below -
सत्यार्थ प्रकाश में जाटजी और पोपजी की कहानी
एक जाट था । उसके घर में एक गाय बहुत अच्छी और बीस सेर दूध देने वाली थी । दूध उसका बड़ा स्वादिष्ट होता था । कभी-कभी पोपजी के मुख में भी पड़ता था । उसका पुरोहित यही ध्यान कर रहा था कि जब जाट का बुड्ढ़ा बाप मरने लगेगा तब इसी गाय का संकल्प करा लूंगा । कुछ दिन में दैवयोग से उसके बाप का मरण समय आया । जीभ बन्द हो गई और खाट से भूमि पर ले लिया अर्थात् प्राण छोड़ने का समय आ पहुंचा । उस समय जाट के इष्ट-मित्र और सम्बन्धी भी उपस्थित हुए थे । तब पोपजी पुकारा कि "यजमान ! अब तू इसके हाथ से गोदान करा ।" जाट १० रुपया निकाल कर पिता के हाथ में रखकर बोला - "पढ़ो संकल्प !" पोपजी बोला - "वाह-वाह ! क्या बाप बारम्बार मरता है ? इस समय तो साक्षात् गाय को लाओ, जो दूध देती हो, बुड्ढी न हो, सब प्रकार उत्तम हो । ऐसी गौ का दान करना चाहिये ।"
जाटजी - हमारे पास तो एक ही गाय है, उसके बिना हमारे लड़के-बालों का निर्वाह न हो सकेगा इसलिए उसको न दूंगा । लो २० रुपये का संकल्प पढ़ देओ ! और इन रुपयों से दूसरी दुधार गाय ले लेना ।
पोपजी - वाहजी वाह ! तुम अपने बाप से भी गाय को अधिक समझते हो ? क्या अपने बाप को वैतरणी नदी में डुबाकर दु:ख देना चाहते हो । तुम अच्छे सुपुत्र हुए ? तब तो पोपजी की ओर सब कुटुम्बी हो गये, क्योंकि उन सबको पहिले ही पोपजी ने बहका रक्खा था और उस समय भी इशारा कर दिया । सबने मिलकर हठ से उसी गाय का दान उसी पोपजी को दिला दिया । उस समय जाट कुछ भी न बोला । उसका पिता मर गया और पोपजी बच्छा सहित गाय और दोहने की बटलोही को ले अपने घर में गाय-बच्छे को बाँध बटलोही धर पुन: जाट के घर आया और मृतक के साथ श्मशानभूमि में जाकर दाहकर्म्म कराया । वहाँ भी कुछ-कुछ पोपलीला चलाई । पश्चात् दशगात्र सपिण्डी कराने आदि में भी उसको मूंडा । महाब्राह्मणों ने भी लूटा और भुक्खड़ों ने भी बहुत सा माल पेट में भरा अर्थात् जब सब क्रिया हो चुकी तब जाट ने जिस किसी के घर से दूध मांग-मूंग निर्वाह किया । चौदहवें दिन प्रात:-काल पोपजी के घर पहुँचा । देखा तो पोपजी गाय दुह, बटलोई भर, पोपजी की उठने की तैयारी थी । इतने में ही जाटजी पहुँचे । उसको देख पोपजी बोला, आइये ! यजमान बैठिये !
जाटजी - तुम भी पुरोहित जी इधर आओ ।
पोपजी - अच्छा दूध धर आऊँ ।
जाटजी - नहीं-नहीं, दूध की बटलोई इधर लाओ ।
पोपजी बिचारे जा बैठे और बटलोई सामने धर दी ।
जाटजी - तुम बड़े झूठे हो ।
पोपजी - क्या झूठ किया ?
जाटजी - कहो, तुमने गाय किसलिए ली थी ?
पोपजी - तुम्हारे पिता के वैतरणी नदी तरने के लिए ।
जाटजी - अच्छा तो तुमने वहाँ वैतरणी के किनारे पर गाय क्यों न पहुँचाई ? हम तो तुम्हारे भरोसे पर रहे और तुम अपने घर बाँध बैठे । न जाने मेरे बाप ने वैतरणी में कितने गोते खाये होंगे ?
पोपजी - नहीं-नहीं, वहाँ इस दान के पुण्य के प्रभाव से दूसरी गाय बनकर उसको उतार दिया होगा ।
जाटजी - वैतरणी नदी यहाँ से कितनी दूर और किधर की ओर है ?
पोपजी - अनुमान से कोई तीस करोड़ कोश दूर है । क्योंकि उञ्चास कोटि योजन पृथ्वी है और दक्षिण नैऋत दिशा में वैतरणी नदी है ।
जाटजी - इतनी दूर से तुम्हारी चिट्ठी वा तार का समाचार गया हो, उसका उत्तर आया हो कि वहाँ पुण्य की गाय बन गई, अमुक के पिता को पार उतार दिया, दिखलाओ ?
पोपजी - हमारे पास 'गरुड़पुराण' के लेख के बिना डाक वा तारवर्की दूसरा कोई नहीं ।
जाटजी - इस गरुड़पुराण को हम सच्चा कैसे मानें ?
पोपजी - जैसे हम सब मानते हैं ।
जाटजी - यह पुस्तक तुम्हारे पुरषाओं ने तुम्हारी जीविका के लिए बनाया है । क्योंकि पिता को बिना अपने पुत्रों के कोई प्रिय नहीं । जब मेरा पिता मेरे पास चिट्ठी-पत्री वा तार भेजेगा तभी मैं वैतरणी नदी के किनारे गाय पहुंचा दूंगा और उनको पार उतार, पुन: गाय को घर में ले आ दूध को मैं और मेरे लड़के-बाले पिया करेंगे, लाओ ! दूध की भरी हुई बटलोही, गाय, बछड़ा लेकर जाटजी अपने घर को चला ।
पोपजी - तुम दान देकर लेते हो, तुम्हारा सत्यानाश हो जायेगा ।
जाटजी - चुप रहो ! नहीं तो तेरह दिन लों दूध के बिना जितना दु:ख हमने पाया है, सब कसर निकाल दूंगा । तब पोपजी चुप रहे और जाटजी गाय-बछड़ा ले अपने घर पहुँचे ।
जब ऐसे ही जाटजी के से पुरुष हों तो पोपलीला संसार में न चले । Regards, burdak 17:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Reply to Shree Burdak
[edit]Dear Shree Burdak: Thank you for your prompt reply and for providing the Hindi text. I took it to my son (who speaks Hindi and used to be able to read it somewhat) but he says he is not competent enough to translate it for me - so I will have to see if I can find anyone else to help me. (Perhaps you or one of the other readers of this list would be kind enough to translate it into English?)
I will ask the library here tomorrow (Monday) to see if they can source a copy of Geiger's book for me. If they can, I will certainly inform you on this list as to what I can find in it.
I do hope that, in spite of whatever differences of opinion we may have, we can work together to make this page a truly informative, interesting and accurate account of Jat people and their fascinating history.
Yours sincerely,
John Hill
Rajasthan
[edit]I agree with you that that Jats, Meenas, Gujars and Bhills have played a very important role in the History of Rajasthan and continue to do so. I was not questioning this fact, but the way your contribution was written. I am leaving your current entry there, but this section still needs to be improved a lot. --rakshat 11:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
WikiProject India Newsletter: Volume II, Issue 2 - March 2007
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Need help on Jat people page
[edit]It is after a long gap I contacted you. I have observed that large content of Jat people article was deleted in last few days. This is vandalism and should be stopped immediately. I had to restore sections like, Image of A Jat Sepoy, Jats in Shahnama, Jats in Sindh and Migration from Sindh, a part of Jats in Mahabharata. Can you find who did it and get him banned? Regards, --burdak 05:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
- Hi. Nice to see you again. In case, it is a case of vandalism, I highly deplore the same, and in the long run, all vandals are dealt with suitably. However, Burdakjee, when we are on a wiki, other editors may always come and change the contents. In case, you want the images, please verify the images once more for suitable copyright tags and if they fit into the contexts, you may again add them. Moreover, you should try to properly reference the contents. --Bhadani (talk) 09:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
hi
[edit]Hi LRBurdak. When you add new Jat people articles please use this category
Category:Jat people
regards--Jat78 19:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
As mentioned in Wikiproject India newsletter of March 2007, the weekly collaboration of the Indian wikiproject has fallen from its once high feats. This message is to request the users to visit the collaboration page and help rejuvenate it.
The present collaboration of the week is Religion in India. Please go through the talk page of the article to see the proposed changes in the article. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
LRBurdak Category:Jat people
[edit]Hi LRBurdak. When you add new Jat people articles e.g. jat sportsman, please ADD this category to the new Jat articles
--Jat78 02:12, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks, I will keep in mind in future about this category. burdak 07:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
DYK
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On 26 May, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Maharaja Suraj Mal, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page. |
--Aquarius • talk 17:26, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I reecently found that Sis ram Ola was awarded Padma Shri in 1968. Do you have any information about his early life .Can you please help improve/enhance that article.Shyamsunder 16:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Please, Mr. Burdak
[edit]Please, Mr. Burdak, stop spreading blatant and hurtful lies about me as you have just done on the Jat people Talk page - it is really most unethical and reflects very badly on yourself - not on me. Please, for your own sake, stop this nonsense now. Have you no regard at all for the effects of karma?
The truth of the matter is that, in spite of your accusations, I have frequently referred to Indian historians on the Jat people page, as you must know, and just 3 days ago I added a quote from the controversial Vinayak Damodar Savarkar which I specifically noted that I agreed with. Do please read the quote I made on that page from Shri Savarkar - it contains a message I had hoped you might take to heart.
Earlier today - just hours before you wrote these horrible false accusations (check the times given on the Jat people 'history' page if you do not believe me) - I added a properly referenced paragraph to the main Jat people page as well as making adjustments to another sentence in the body of the article.
This is not the first time you have accused me falsely. I hope for your sake it is just because of your usual slipshod and negligent approach to research and not out of sheer maliciousness that you continue to do so. Please read what I write before you blindly attack me once again and insinuate that I am racist and spread lies such as this one today that I do "not believe in Indian authors, however reputed they may be." Indian authors and philosophers have had a profound positive impact on my life and my thinking and I continue to draw inspiration and hope from them on a daily basis. John Hill 05:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
- PS In the note above I asked you to refer to the time of my edits if you wished. I was just rechecking everything now and, at first glance, could not figure out why my latest edits (which were on the Jat talk page) seemed to have been done earlier than the ones on the main Jat people page. But then I checked http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Page_history which makes clear that the times given on the Jat talk page are in UTC whereas, for some unknown reason, the times given on the main Jat people page are recorded in local time. John Hill 07:43, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Were both Krishna and Shiva Jats, Mr. Burdak?
[edit]Thanks for your advice. Unfortunately, I do not have access to the book you mentioned - and I just phoned our library but they cannot even find one available on inter-library loan.
I have already checked the Etymology subsection of Jat people article and the Sanskrit text. Yes, we all know that there are many slight variations of the basic word 'jat' which can have a number of different interpretations.
Your explanation sounds almost plausible but why is this passage stuck in the middle of a long list of attributes of the deity? It doesn't seem to fit the context. The English translation runs:
- "Thou hast hair of infinite length. Thou hast a vast stomach. Thou hast matted locks of vast length. Thou art ever cheerful. Thou art of the form of grace. Thou art of the form of belief. Thou art he that has mountains for his bow (or weapons in battle). Thou art he that is full of affection to all creatures like a parent towards his offspring. Thou art he that has no affection. Thou art unvanquished. Thou art exceedingly devoted to (Yoga) contemplation. 4 Thou art of the form of the tree of the world."
Are you suggesting that the section that I have put in bold here actually names the deity as a Jat? It doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the passage at all - it just doesn't make sense here. And, could the translator really have got this passage so wrong?
We have already heard your claims that Krishna was a Jat. So are you now actually suggesting that Shiva as well as Krishna were both Jats, Mr. Burdak? I would like to hear what Hindus of other communities think about your claims. They certainly sound very far-fetched to me. John Hill 06:24, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Stop Vandalising the Wikipedia
[edit]Stop vandalising the Wikipedia with your gross and ugly racist propaganda, wild claims, false quotes and accusations. And I am still waiting for your answer - are you really claiming that both Shiva AND Krishna were Jats? Do you really believe anyone can take you seriously, now? What a pathetic sad joke! Why don't you take a holiday and calm down. John Hill 04:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Behave calmly
[edit]Who says Shiva was jat? Where is written that Shiva was Jat? Authors who say some clan descended from Shiva is given at relevant reference in the article. Behave calmy? Don't get agitated.--burdak 05:11, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Your grandiose claims seem to be even worse than I thought
[edit]Did you or did someone else add the statement:
- "Thus appearance of Jat name in Mahabharata along with Brahma shows that name of Jat is as antique as Brahma.[39] Mahabharata Anushasan Parva mentions in chapter 17 that one of the names of parmatma or parmeshwar is Jata (जट) as given shloka 86 as under in Devanagari and IAST:[40]
महानखॊ महारॊमा महाकेशॊ महाजटः mahānakho mahāromā mahākeśo mahājaṭaḥ
असपत्नः परसाथश च परत्ययॊ गिरिसाधनः asapatnaḥ prasādaś ca pratyayo girisādhanaḥ"
- This statement would seem to be even worse than I originally thought. My memory failed me - I had forgotten that 'parmeshwar' or 'parmatma' not only refers to Shiva (of which he is often seen as a manifestation) but to the Godhead (Parmeshwar) with the three manifestations or trinity of deities who carry on the world - Brahma, the creator, Vishnu, perpetrator of life and Shiva (Mahesh), the purifier and perpetrator of good and destroyer of evil.
- It would seem now that you are claiming that the Godhead (Parmeshwar) - including Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva - were Jats! Is this so? John Hill 05:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Proves antiquity of Jat
[edit]It has been written in Indian epics and proves the antiquity of the word Jat. It shows that Jat tribe was the oldest one and its name comes along with Brahma. Can you tell me How old is Brahma Mr John Hill? Now you need to study the Indian epics to understand it.--burdak 14:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi Shyamsundar, There is a need to improve the Rajasthan page. The art, culture and tradition sections need to be expanded and improved. Can you spare some time. --burdak 05:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Sure, will do as time permits.--Shyamsunder 14:09, 30 June 2007 (UTC)