User talk:Kathydi1977

you may not copy and paste text from other sources into Wikipedia. Doing so is a copyright violation and may constitute plagiarism. -- Moxy (talk) 17:37, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Ian.thomson (talk) 17:41, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also according to Moxy's edit summary, Moxy explains that your addition was plagiarism, which is why the first message on this page is here. Plagiarism is stealing, and Wikipedia does not support that. Furthermore, Moxy points out that that content was not appropriate for the intro of the article, which is supposed to summarize the rest of the article, which is about the whole band, not just Levene. Looking over the rest of the article, it already mentions Levene, so I'm not sure what you intended to accomplish. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:44, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ian -These are Keith's words relating his experiences first hand as a founder member of the Clash. Not another writer's regurgitation of same As you probably know if you are a fan of the Clash Keith has been portrayed as a mere apostrophe in the history of the band. He wants to get the record straight and he is furious that he continues to hit dead ends everywhere including here on Wikipedia.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kathydi1977 (talk • contribs)

If I assume your claims here are true (which I actually am OK with doing), that still means you added material that was copyrighted by you and Levene -- You need to paraphrase it instead of posting sections of the book.

And honestly, calling people Nazis and trying to threaten them does not make one come across as reasonable adult that anyone would want to work with. If he wants people to work with him, he needs to be willing to work with others. That's not ancient wisdom, that's bloody kindergarten. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:04, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ian - I said at the beginning it was a SYNOPSIS not a cut and paste job. Where are you getting it is a cut and paste job?

I'm getting the feeling everything I say you will find a problem with. Therefore what is the point of even contributing?

He's livid. Keith has dealt with this since he was 17 and left the Clash. this is his history and his recollection of events. It's not going to appear anywhere else. It's not taken from the NME or anywhere else. I'm the co-author with Keith. I don't know what else I can say at this point. Please reconsider in the name of setting the record straight. Thanks much, Kathy

Did you consider my suggestion to reword/paraphrase the addition?

And I've already recommended that you read WP:Assume good faith. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:16, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Request for mediation rejected

The request for formal mediation concerning Moxy has removed the entire section of a contribution I made to the Clash page without providing feedback to me., to which you were listed as a party, has been declined. To read an explanation by the Mediation Committee for the rejection of this request, see the mediation request page, which will be deleted by an administrator after a reasonable time. Please direct questions relating to this request to the Chairman of the Committee, or to the mailing list. For more information on forms of dispute resolution, other than formal mediation, that are available, see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution.

For the Mediation Committee, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:46, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(Delivered by MediationBot, on behalf of the Mediation Committee.)

Hello. It is my understanding that Moxy removed the section because he concluded I engage din plagiarism.

I am he co author of the book cited. My submission is a synopsis of my published work.

I wrote the "Meeting Joe: Joe Strummer, the Clash and Me" book with Keith Levene the subject of the piece I submitted.

Keith can confirm this information if need be. His website is www.teenageguitarist76.com. His email is teenageguitarist76@gmail.com.

I am respectfully requesting that the information be reinstated.

Regards,

Kathy DiTondo

Your addition was a copied word-for-word from the second paragraph of this site. Citing a different source does not excuse what is clearly plagiarism. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:12, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ian - if this was taken word for word from another source then they have plaigairzed me. Please tell me exactly where you found it in the other work please. This is what I wrote and cited to the Meeting Joe book.

Guitar virtuoso Keith Levene was also a founder member of the Clash. In late 1975/early 1976 17 year old Levene migrated from his home in North London to West London where he was introduced by his friend Alan to Mick Jones. Levene and Jones agreed to start a band together. Jones suggested Paul Simonon to serve as their bassist although Simonon did not know how to play bass at first. It was agreed that Joe Strummer - who was then the front man for the 101ers - should be approached and recruited to serve as Clash front man. Levene accompanied by Clash manager Bernard Rhodes went to a pub where the 101ers were playing. Levene asserts that the story that Rhodes demanded an answer within 24 or 48 hours as to whether Strummer would join the Clash is unmeritorious. According to Levene Strummer was his own man and would not have been pushed around like that by Rhodes or anyone else. Moreover Strummer was the leader of the 101ers and would not have dropped his friends in the band who also lived with him at the communal squat which the 101ers was named after without some serious consideration. Levene approached Strummer after the gig and the two spoke for a while. Levene then suggested that Strummer come to Levene's squat on Davis Road to discuss the possibility of joining up with the Clash. The following Saturday Strummer did just that. Levene played guitar to Strummer to show him he could play all kinds of music. Strummer hesitated at first but then ultimately agreed to give the Clash a shot after Levene played a 101'ers tune "Keys To Your Heart" to Strummer. Levene remained with the Clash, contributed to the early sound of the band, wrote the Clash tune "What's My Name" while on stage at a Clash/Sex Pistols gig in Sheffield, and played at all live gigs with the Clash through September 1976. [1]

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Re your book, and also re plagiarism

It is recommended that you do not add anything relating to yourself to article space, and it is expressly forbidden to use Wikipedia to promote anything about yourself. -- This means that you should probably avoid citing a book you co-wrote.

If you did co-author a book, surely you'd understand the concept of structure, right? ALl Wikipedia articles follow the clear structure of:

Introduction - Introducing the whole concept at its essence by summarizing the body.

-then-

Body - Going into the chronology and component parts of the subject.

...However, your addition was about a specific part of the band (not the whole of it), and a select portion of its chronology (the origin), rather than its overall essence (and certainly not just summarizing the article, which I have to ask if you even read) -- And yet you placed your addition right at the beginning, before the intro. Does that make any sense?

Also, your addition was clearly taken from the second paragraph from this article. Surely, as a co-author, you don't support plagiarism. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:11, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I just spoke with Keith. He is trying to correct the record. You obviously are censoring him and is extremely upset. He has stated that he will tweet and Facebook what you have done. Leave it out. Thank you.

He is at @missingchannel on twitter.

Please see WP:Assume good faith. We're just trying to make sure that our site does not violate any copyright violations and is not used for self-promotion by anyone, it has nothing to do you or Levene in particular, so claiming that we're trying to censor him in particular is just paranoid. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:34, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No it's not. He's just tweeted what happened and intends to mention you by name in his upcoming interview Friday night and thereafter. He is absolutely furious. First you said I plaigairzed it word for word form another source which I clearly did not. and then it's another issue.

https://twitter.com

Keith's tweet is already getting responses. He's absolutely livid over this censorship Ian.

https://twitter.com/kinsellawarren/status/565625522282319875

A sane grown-up would have tried to demonstrate how the NME source (already linked here repeatedly) ripped them off (not the other way around), or just changed their wording, and not have to resort to silly threats in a childish tantrum.

A sane grown-up would understand that Wikipedia has to protect itself from any potential copyright violations and self-promotion, and that these protection measures are not specifically targeting them.

And someone who is famous should be able to consider the possibility that a fan of theirs will cite the book later on.

Would you and Keith like to be sane grown-ups? It's very simple: all you have to do is re-write the addition, and put it in a part of the article where it makes sense. Did that possibility even occur to y'all? Did either of y'all ask "what is a reasonable and mature approach to solve this?"

Hey, did either of you bother to actually read the article? Levene's roll in the band is already clearly explained in the "Origins: 1974–76" section.

Ian.thomson (talk) 21:46, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps best to read over Wikipedia:Contributing to Wikipedia to get an overview of what we do and how we do it here. So I did some research and contacted nme.com because Kathy is so adamant about typing the section as new text. NME has said that there site is just a mirror of Wikipedia...in their words "we are powered by Wikipedia"...thus I think there is no copyvio from there anymore. So our problem that we are left with is the place and content of the edit and if this Keith guy would even be a reliable source for the additions. The behavior thus far seen by both would indicate to me we are not dealing with professionals....thus the source I will have to question till more info on the author(s) of the so called book. Moxy (talk) 22:27, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

How to get Levene's account into the article

Ian - the reason why Keith became angered is that Moxy and then you accused me of cutting and pasting from the NME article and this is absolute bollocks. Everythng quoted is from his perspective - a perspective he did not speak with anyone before the Meeting Joe book came out. Moxy deleted my section fairly soon after I put it up. He obviously did not read Keith's Meeting Joe book. Keith was there in 1975 and 1976 The writer of the NME article was not. The NME article is based on second hand accounts taken from other sources and not Keith. if this is plagiarism please let me know how it is.

He is predicting that after going through what we have the past 24 hours someone else will go in and delete it again. I've told him I don't think it will happen because we have gone through mediation. Time will tell regarding that.

Finally I appreciate the revision but there is an inaccuracy. I did not write in the initial submission that Alan was a member of the Clash. This is inaccurate. Alan was Keith's friend who introduced Keith to Mick Jones. I've revised that part in what you wrote. He also wants another myth dispelled which is that he was fired from the Clash. This is included in the Clash wiki page and Keith disputes it. He writes about this in the Meeting Joe book. It was a mutual decision for him to leave. Per Keith once the Clash got started (after he got Joe to join up) the Clash almost immediately began limiting the music into a mode instead of begin open to different possibilities. I've also changed "claims" to "states" because that is accurate.. Another contributor who wasn't there affirmatively states Levene was fired.

Thanks.

Here's the rewrite;

Keith Levene writes in the autobiographical work "Meeting Joe: Joe Strummer, the Clash and Me" that at age 17 in late 1975 to early 1976, his friend Alan introduced him to Mick Jones who was a few years older than Levene. Levene looked up to Jones at first but later realised that he over-estimated Jones in a number of ways. Levene agreed to start a band with Jones one without musical limits. Paul Simonon who could not play bass at first was selected to serve as bassist. From there, the band decided that 101ers frontman Joe Strummer should be recruited as their frontman. Levene argues that stories of limited-time offers for Strummer to join the Clash proffered by Bernard Rhodes are untrue, as Strummer would not have responded to such demands nor have abandonded his friends in the 101ers without serious reflection. Instead, Levene states that he met Strummer after a 101ers gig and invited him to his squat the following Saturday, where Levene convinced Strummer to give the Clash a try by (among other things) playing the 101ers tune "Keys to your Heart" back to him on guitar. Strummer advised Levene he was impressed with Levene's guitar-playing techniques. Levene disputes that he was fired from the band he started with Jones. He states that after Strummer was recruited the Clash began limiting itself too soon into a formula, were inflexible in a number of areas both musically and in the presentation of the band. Levene also asserts that Jones was unreasonable, had a quick temper and would do things such as berate him in front of other band members for begin late for rehearsals that had never been scheduled. Levene states that after a band meeting in approximately July 1976 Levene stated he would leave the Clash. However, because the Clash had several live commitments and he did not want to hurt the band he stayed with the Clash until September 1976. Levene disputes the fact that he was anything less than a founder member of the Clash based on the fact that he started the band with Jones, recruited the face of the Clash Strummer, wrote the Clash tune "What's My Name," persuaded the Clash to play faster than they initially did, and appeared at all Clash live performances through the September 1976 Roundhouse show. Levene states that by then both the media and fans began to take notice of the band and that it was at around this time that record company personnel including the company that signed the Clash also got wind of the Clash. <ref>Levene, Keith [http://www.amazon.com/Meeting-Joe-Strummer-Guitarist-Levenes-ebook/dp/B00RY2II0G "Meeting Joe: Joe Strummer, the Clash and Me"], Commercial Zone books, January 2015</ref>

Since it appears that Keith Levene doesn't want to be a grown up about this, I'll go on ahead and do the work for y'all. Here's how one would paraphrase the addition you tried to add, including the proper citation codes:

Keith Levene writes in the autobiographical work "Meeting Joe: Joe Strummer, the Clash and Me" that in late 1975 to early 1976, he started a band with his friends Alan and Mick Jones, choosing Paul Simonon as a bassist. From there, the band decided that 101ers frontman Joe Strummer should be recruited as their frontman. Levene argues that stories of limited-time offers for Strummer to join the Clash are untrue, as Strummer would not have responded to such demands nor have abandonded his friends in the 101ers. Instead, Levene claims that he met Strummer after a 101ers gig and invited him to his house the following Saturday, where Levene convinced Strummer to join by playing (among other sonds) the 101ers tune "Keys to your Heart."<ref>Levene, Keith [http://www.amazon.com/Meeting-Joe-Strummer-Guitarist-Levenes-ebook/dp/B00RY2II0G "Meeting Joe: Joe Strummer, the Clash and Me"], Commercial Zone books, January 2015</ref>

That would be fairly appropriate to insert as the second paragraph of the "Origins: 1974–76" section of the article. You can even use the above quoted portion. You're welcome, and I hope Keith gets help for his anger issues. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:41, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It would appear that no one has noticed that the Meeting Joe book appears to be self-published: Amazon shows the publisher to be Commercial Zone books, the book to be digitally published, and Levene has a Commercial Zone Initiative. It would appear to me that this is — or should be regarded as until proved otherwise — a self-published source which under WP:BLPSPS and WP:BLPSELFPUB cannot be used to make claims about third parties such as Strummer. I understand Levene's ~~Strummer's~~ and Kathydi's interest in getting out what they see as the truth, but Wikipedia is not, by policy, a soapbox. If Levene's claims garner enough attention that they are discussed in reliable secondary sources, they can certainly be included here but until then, probably not. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:38, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

February 2015

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Your recent edits could give Wikipedia contributors the impression that you may consider legal or other "off-wiki" action against them, or against Wikipedia itself. Please note that making such threats on Wikipedia is strictly prohibited under Wikipedia's policies on legal threats and civility. Users who make such threats may be blocked. If you have a dispute with the content of any page on Wikipedia, please follow the proper channels for dispute resolution. Please be sure to comment on content, not contributors, and where possible make specific suggestions for changes supported by reliable independent sources and focusing especially on verifiable errors of fact. Thank you. NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:59, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

ANI notice

There is a matter at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#The Clash and legal action which affects you. — TransporterMan (TALK) 20:19, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

February 2015

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